Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Ramama is reported to have 'realized' and afterwards did self-inquiry. Without 'realizing' and without self-enquiry, we go about our business with a remarkable sense of well-being most of the time. Even when we're frustrated, fearful, angry, we still wallow around in the most remarkable sense of well-being which is completely taken for granted, as it should be. So, maybe one day, maybe just out of the blue or maybe because we got curious and requested it, we have a realization. It's painless, it's complete, it is a refocusing on that well-being which never went away and which turns out to be what we were all along. It's formless and we aren't concerned that there's no self-identity to it because we see that what seemed so tangible wasn't really very tangible at all and all along it was this unnoticed well-being that gave us our sense of reality. Then, sooner or later, we decide to do self-inquiry. Not just a good look at relationships and mental tendencies, but an unnatural hard look at everything that makes up a world. Unnatural hard look. Putting so much attention on what makes up a world that we take it away from the natural sense of well-being. The more that everything that seemed concrete proves to be either so flexible that we can't hold onto it, or so vaprous that we can't identify with it, the harder we look. Again, it's an unnatural look. The natural view of the world had always been predominantly focused in the formless well-being. But, we didn't realize that. When we 'realized' and all of our attention was formless well- being, there was never a question about that and never a problem because that formlessness was real and unshakable and held the easy and natural potential for 'stuff' and memory. Ok, so now we're caught up in self-enquiry and we've reached the point of no return because we've just thought ourselves out of everything, yet our attention is so wrapped up in finding 'something out there' to identify with that our natural sense of well-being seems to be gone. NOw, we've done it; we aren't real, nothing else is real and we've gone and thunk ourselves right into oblivion! Oh shit! What are we going to do, now? If we're religeous, we'll pray to somebody with all our attention, we'll surrender to whoever. If we think that the ego is what has to die, we'll surrender to oblivion. If we remember that all pervasive well-being, we'll just surrender and hope for the best. Regardless, unless we run screaming to the nearest hospital for a self restoring drug, it all does turn out for the best because as soon as we give up the pursuit of reality, unreality all falls down and once again, we find that formless well-being was all we ever were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Some more fantastic teachings from Niko; Ramana tripped on a rock so to speak and got Realized. Then because of seekers hounding him he came up with Self-Enquiry. As far as I know he did not have to do any more Enquiry except maybe during that death event. Rob, am I right? You know more about Ramana than I do and I stand to be corrected. love and namaste, slater Realization , onniko wrote: > Ramama is reported to have 'realized' and afterwards > did self-inquiry. Without 'realizing' and without > self-enquiry, we go about our business with a remarkable > sense of well-being most of the time. Even when we're > frustrated, fearful, angry, we still wallow around in > the most remarkable sense of well-being which is completely > taken for granted, as it should be. > > So, maybe one day, maybe just out of the blue or maybe > because we got curious and requested it, we have a realization. > It's painless, it's complete, it is a refocusing on that > well-being which never went away and which turns out to be > what we were all along. It's formless and we aren't concerned > that there's no self-identity to it because we see that what > seemed so tangible wasn't really very tangible at all and all > along it was this unnoticed well-being that gave us our sense > of reality. > > Then, sooner or later, we decide to do self-inquiry. Not > just a good look at relationships and mental tendencies, > but an unnatural hard look at everything that makes up a > world. Unnatural hard look. Putting so much attention on > what makes up a world that we take it away from the natural > sense of well-being. The more that everything that seemed > concrete proves to be either so flexible that we can't hold > onto it, or so vaprous that we can't identify with it, the > harder we look. > > Again, it's an unnatural look. The natural > view of the world had always been predominantly focused in > the formless well-being. But, we didn't realize that. When > we 'realized' and all of our attention was formless well- > being, there was never a question about that and never a > problem because that formlessness was real and unshakable > and held the easy and natural potential for 'stuff' and memory. > > Ok, so now we're caught up in self-enquiry and we've > reached the point of no return because we've just thought > ourselves out of everything, yet our attention is so > wrapped up in finding 'something out there' to identify > with that our natural sense of well-being seems to be gone. > NOw, we've done it; we aren't real, nothing else is real > and we've gone and thunk ourselves right into oblivion! > > Oh shit! What are we going to do, now? If we're religeous, > we'll pray to somebody with all our attention, we'll > surrender to whoever. If we think that the ego is what > has to die, we'll surrender to oblivion. If we remember > that all pervasive well-being, we'll just surrender and > hope for the best. Regardless, unless we run screaming > to the nearest hospital for a self restoring drug, it all > does turn out for the best because as soon as we give up > the pursuit of reality, unreality all falls down and once > again, we find that formless well-being was all we ever were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 > As far as I know he did not have to do any more Enquiry > except maybe during that death event. Rob, am I right? > You know more about Ramana than I do and I stand to > be corrected. I think you're right. There are some comments about this by David Godman here: http://davidgodman.org/rteach/iandii2.shtml - <lostnfoundation <Realization > Wednesday, December 17, 2003 3:26 PM Re: self enquiry and old dead guys > > Some more fantastic teachings from Niko; > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 " If we remember that all pervasive well-being " slater: That is not in the realm of possibility for all but a handful. Our mental states are primarily based on how our bodies are functioning and feeling. Become sick, have low energy and we have a feeling on non well-being. I have met a few rare people in my life that are gravely ill but are beaming with that well-beingness, but they are few. Myself, I have a terrific feelings of well-beingness except when my energy is low, so most of my life is not only dedicated to meditation but to do whatever in necessary to keep this body humming. I found that meditation takes more mental energy than vigorous exercise and if there is not enough physical energy there is not enough mental energy. All our problems are our bodies problems. I wont say who's quote that is because his is defunct now. aloha, slater Realization , onniko wrote: > Ramama is reported to have 'realized' and afterwards > did self-inquiry. Without 'realizing' and without > self-enquiry, we go about our business with a remarkable > sense of well-being most of the time. Even when we're > frustrated, fearful, angry, we still wallow around in > the most remarkable sense of well-being which is completely > taken for granted, as it should be. > > So, maybe one day, maybe just out of the blue or maybe > because we got curious and requested it, we have a realization. > It's painless, it's complete, it is a refocusing on that > well-being which never went away and which turns out to be > what we were all along. It's formless and we aren't concerned > that there's no self-identity to it because we see that what > seemed so tangible wasn't really very tangible at all and all > along it was this unnoticed well-being that gave us our sense > of reality. > > Then, sooner or later, we decide to do self-inquiry. Not > just a good look at relationships and mental tendencies, > but an unnatural hard look at everything that makes up a > world. Unnatural hard look. Putting so much attention on > what makes up a world that we take it away from the natural > sense of well-being. The more that everything that seemed > concrete proves to be either so flexible that we can't hold > onto it, or so vaprous that we can't identify with it, the > harder we look. > > Again, it's an unnatural look. The natural > view of the world had always been predominantly focused in > the formless well-being. But, we didn't realize that. When > we 'realized' and all of our attention was formless well- > being, there was never a question about that and never a > problem because that formlessness was real and unshakable > and held the easy and natural potential for 'stuff' and memory. > > Ok, so now we're caught up in self-enquiry and we've > reached the point of no return because we've just thought > ourselves out of everything, yet our attention is so > wrapped up in finding 'something out there' to identify > with that our natural sense of well-being seems to be gone. > NOw, we've done it; we aren't real, nothing else is real > and we've gone and thunk ourselves right into oblivion! > > Oh shit! What are we going to do, now? If we're religeous, > we'll pray to somebody with all our attention, we'll > surrender to whoever. If we think that the ego is what > has to die, we'll surrender to oblivion. If we remember > that all pervasive well-being, we'll just surrender and > hope for the best. Regardless, unless we run screaming > to the nearest hospital for a self restoring drug, it all > does turn out for the best because as soon as we give up > the pursuit of reality, unreality all falls down and once > again, we find that formless well-being was all we ever were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Realization , " slater " <lostnfoundation> wrote: > " If we remember > that all pervasive well-being " > > slater: That is not in the realm of possibility for all but a > handful. Our mental states are primarily based on how our bodies are > functioning and feeling. Become sick, have low energy and we have a > feeling on non well-being. I have met a few rare people in my life > that are gravely ill but are beaming with that well-beingness, but > they are few. *v* Good morning, Slater. That response was based on something someone said about their enlightenment being preceded by a great fear, perhaps of annialation. They believe that there can be no understanding of their true nature without experiencing terror. So, I just wrote my own experiences which were had before I'd been preconditioned to any particular experience. I think I got and answer something like " full of shit " and then there was this part about " suppositories " which I don't know what they are but it sounded pretty ominous. Anyway, when I was young, one day, my world was just suddenly unveiled for me and I saw everything that I read about now. It wasn't a great painful, writhing, scary leading up to a great surrender experience. It wasn't an ecstasy so great like some cosmic orgasm that I could hardly bear. It was the most quiet and soft thing. I was suddenly just back to being the no me me and it wasn't big or small or high or low or anything like that. It was perfect. There was nowhere else to want to be, do, or know. A few years later, I found myself in a great position, (which you'd be envious of, haha) of getting to spend alot of time alone in utter freedom with no responsibilities of any kind. In the pursuit of art, I began to examine the patterns of the world. I gained an insatiable interest in this and it was a beautiful thing. My facination extended to examining all facets of senses and thoughts. I was happy, interested, and all was well. Then, one day, just a day, an hour or a few, I reached a point where the thought of who I was surfaced spontaneously. I didn't even know at that time what that meant. I just knew that I'd lost my " I " and that it had been connected to many related ideas and so I scanned my mind to try and find it. I saw lots of variations and distortions, but nothing worked. In my mind, I felt really and truly dead and was frantic because " I " had died and every random thought or thing I looked at was taking its place. They weren't bad things but without my " I " I felt at their mercy and I was afraid that if I didn't pay attention to something, that, since I was dead, I would just vanish from existence. Finally, when I was absolutely sure that every thought and concept I'd ever had were nothing more than dead and empty linear demons that each held an idea but had no life of their own, I gave up looking for a thought to hold onto to make myself real and the life just poured back in and swallowed it all up just as it did on that one perfect fearless day. But from that, this is what I'd say about the sick and the miserable and their well-being or lack of: we are naturally graced with real life and well-being. Our suffering is couched within a well-being that intellectually we don't even know we have. In any given moment, we look to an idea to make another idea better which will never happen, we stand quietly vigilant, or we melt and spread out into this well-being regardless of what our world and mind is presenting. well-being > Myself, I have a terrific feelings of well-beingness except when my > energy is low, so most of my life is not only dedicated to > meditation but to do whatever in necessary to keep this body humming. > > I found that meditation takes more mental energy than vigorous > exercise and if there is not enough physical energy there is not > enough mental energy. > > All our problems are our bodies problems. I wont say who's quote > that is because his is defunct now. > > aloha, > slater > > > > Realization , onniko wrote: > > Ramama is reported to have 'realized' and afterwards > > did self-inquiry. Without 'realizing' and without > > self-enquiry, we go about our business with a remarkable > > sense of well-being most of the time. Even when we're > > frustrated, fearful, angry, we still wallow around in > > the most remarkable sense of well-being which is completely > > taken for granted, as it should be. > > > > So, maybe one day, maybe just out of the blue or maybe > > because we got curious and requested it, we have a realization. > > It's painless, it's complete, it is a refocusing on that > > well-being which never went away and which turns out to be > > what we were all along. It's formless and we aren't concerned > > that there's no self-identity to it because we see that what > > seemed so tangible wasn't really very tangible at all and all > > along it was this unnoticed well-being that gave us our sense > > of reality. > > > > Then, sooner or later, we decide to do self-inquiry. Not > > just a good look at relationships and mental tendencies, > > but an unnatural hard look at everything that makes up a > > world. Unnatural hard look. Putting so much attention on > > what makes up a world that we take it away from the natural > > sense of well-being. The more that everything that seemed > > concrete proves to be either so flexible that we can't hold > > onto it, or so vaprous that we can't identify with it, the > > harder we look. > > > > Again, it's an unnatural look. The natural > > view of the world had always been predominantly focused in > > the formless well-being. But, we didn't realize that. When > > we 'realized' and all of our attention was formless well- > > being, there was never a question about that and never a > > problem because that formlessness was real and unshakable > > and held the easy and natural potential for 'stuff' and memory. > > > > Ok, so now we're caught up in self-enquiry and we've > > reached the point of no return because we've just thought > > ourselves out of everything, yet our attention is so > > wrapped up in finding 'something out there' to identify > > with that our natural sense of well-being seems to be gone. > > NOw, we've done it; we aren't real, nothing else is real > > and we've gone and thunk ourselves right into oblivion! > > > > Oh shit! What are we going to do, now? If we're religeous, > > we'll pray to somebody with all our attention, we'll > > surrender to whoever. If we think that the ego is what > > has to die, we'll surrender to oblivion. If we remember > > that all pervasive well-being, we'll just surrender and > > hope for the best. Regardless, unless we run screaming > > to the nearest hospital for a self restoring drug, it all > > does turn out for the best because as soon as we give up > > the pursuit of reality, unreality all falls down and once > > again, we find that formless well-being was all we ever were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Realization , " slater " <lostnfoundation> wrote: > " If we remember > that all pervasive well-being " > > slater: That is not in the realm of possibility for all but a > handful. Our mental states are primarily based on how our bodies are > functioning and feeling. Become sick, have low energy and we have a > feeling on non well-being. I have met a few rare people in my life > that are gravely ill but are beaming with that well-beingness, but > they are few. *v* Good morning, Slater. That response was based on something someone said about their enlightenment being preceded by a great fear, perhaps of annialation. They believe that there can be no understanding of their true nature without experiencing terror. So, I just wrote my own experiences which were had before I'd been preconditioned to any particular experience. I think I got and answer something like " full of shit " and then there was this part about " suppositories " which I don't know what they are but it sounded pretty ominous. >>>>>slater: You should know what suppositories are to help you interpret with more clarity. They are soft bullet like medicines that you place up your butt so that you can move your bowels. You will never have to use them if you are into a whole grain diet like short grain brown rice. Most people are so uptight about that natural function that I many lose a lot of members here. Sorry Rob. Anyway, when I was young, one day, my world was just suddenly unveiled for me and I saw everything that I read about now. It wasn't a great painful, writhing, scary leading up to a great surrender experience. It wasn't an ecstasy so great like some cosmic orgasm that I could hardly bear. It was the most quiet and soft thing. I was suddenly just back to being the no me me and it wasn't big or small or high or low or anything like that. It was perfect. There was nowhere else to want to be, do, or know. A few years later, I found myself in a great position, (which you'd be envious of, haha) of getting to spend alot of time alone in utter freedom with no responsibilities of any kind. In the pursuit of art, I began to examine the patterns of the world. I gained an insatiable interest in this and it was a beautiful thing. My facination extended to examining all facets of senses and thoughts. I was happy, interested, and all was well. Then, one day, just a day, an hour or a few, I reached a point where the thought of who I was surfaced spontaneously. I didn't even know at that time what that meant. I just knew that I'd lost my " I " and that it had been connected to many related ideas and so I scanned my mind to try and find it. I saw lots of variations and distortions, but nothing worked. In my mind, I felt really and truly dead and was frantic because " I " had died and every random thought or thing I looked at was taking its place. They weren't bad things but without my " I " I felt at their mercy and I was afraid that if I didn't pay attention to something, that, since I was dead, I would just vanish from existence. Finally, when I was absolutely sure that every thought and concept I'd ever had were nothing more than dead and empty linear demons that each held an idea but had no life of their own, I gave up looking for a thought to hold onto to make myself real and the life just poured back in and swallowed it all up just as it did on that one perfect fearless day. But from that, this is what I'd say about the sick and the miserable and their well-being or lack of: we are naturally graced with real life and well-being. Our suffering is couched within a well-being that intellectually we don't even know we have. In any given moment, we look to an idea to make another idea better which will never happen, we stand quietly vigilant, or we melt and spread out into this well-being regardless of what our world and mind is presenting. >>>>>>>Slater: This is the reason you got the highest imaginary rating on the essential_i group, Not only are you not talking from a " white tower " you are willing to share about both the real and unreal Niko. love, slater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Thanks Rob: I finally think I understand the " I " and the " I " " I " ... Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > As far as I know he did not have to do any more Enquiry > > except maybe during that death event. Rob, am I right? > > You know more about Ramana than I do and I stand to > > be corrected. > > I think you're right. There are some comments about this > by David Godman here: > > http://davidgodman.org/rteach/iandii2.shtml > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Dear Onniko, This is a pretty amazing message. Especially the part about the death experience. Nisargadatta believed that a certain kind of death experience is necessary for complete realization. Here's a section of an interview in which David Godman describes what Nisargadatta once said about this. ----- Begin quotation from Godman interview: ----- Harriet: So far as you are aware Maharaj never publicly acknowledged anyone else's enlightenment? David: There may have been others but the only other one I know about, since I witnessed it first-hand, was a Canadian - at least I think he was Canadian - called Rudi. I had listened to some tapes before I first went to Maharaj and this man Rudi featured prominently on them. I have to say that he sounded utterly obnoxious. He was pushy, argumentative and aggressive; apparently Maharaj threw him out on several occasions. I had never met Rudi; I only knew him from the tapes I had heard. Then one day Maharaj announced, 'We have a jnani coming to visit us this morning. His name is Rudi.' I laughed because I assumed that Maharaj was making fun of his pretensions to enlightenment. Maharaj could be quite scathing about people who claimed to be enlightened, but who weren't. Wolter Keers, a Dutch advaita teacher, was someone who fell into that category. Every so often he would come to Bombay to see Maharaj, and on every visit Maharaj would tell him off for claiming to be enlightened when he wasn't. On one visit he started lecturing Wolter before he had even properly entered the room. There was a wooden stairway that led directly into the room where Maharaj taught. As Wolter's head appeared above the top step, Maharaj suspended his other business and started laying into him. 'You are not enlightened! How dare you teach in the West, claiming that you are enlightened?' On one of my other visits Wolter was due to arrive and Maharaj kept asking when he was going to appear. 'Where is he? I want to shout at him again. When is he going to arrive?' On that particular visit I had to leave before Wolter came so I don't know what form the lecture took, but I suspect that it was a typically hot one. Anyway, let's get back to Rudi. When Maharaj announced that a 'jnani' was due, I assumed that Rudi was going to get the Wolter treatment. However, much to my amazement, Maharaj treated him as the genuine article when he finally showed up. After spending a good portion of the morning wondering when Rudi was going to appear, Maharaj then asked him why he had bothered to come at all. 'To pay my respects to you and to thank you for what you have done for me. I am leaving for Canada and I came to say goodbye.' Maharaj didn't accept this explanation: 'If you have come to this room, you must have some doubt left in you. If you were doubt-free, you wouldn't bother to come at all. I never visit any other teachers or Gurus because I no longer have any doubts about who I am. I don't need to go anywhere. Many people come to me and say, " You must visit this or that teacher. They are wonderful, " but I never go because there is nothing I need from anyone. You must want something you haven't got or have a doubt to come here. Why have you come?' Rudi repeated his original story and then kept quiet. I was looking at him and he seemed to me to be a man who was in some inner state of ecstasy or bliss that was so compelling, he found it hard even to speak. I still wasn't sure whether Maharaj was accepting his credentials, but then the woman he had arrived with asked Maharaj a question. Maharaj replied, 'Ask your friend later. He is a jnani. He will give you correct answers. Keep quiet this morning. I want to talk to him.' It was at this point that I realised that Maharaj really did accept that this man had realised the Self. Rudi then asked Maharaj for advice on what he should do when he returned to Canada. I thought that it was a perfectly appropriate question for a disciple to ask a Guru on such an occasion, but Maharaj seemed to take great exception to it. 'How can you ask a question like that if you are in the state of the Self? Don't you know that you don't have any choice about what you do or don't do?' Rudi kept quiet. I got the feeling that Maharaj was trying to provoke him into a quarrel or an argument, and that Rudi was refusing to take the bait. At some point Maharaj asked him, 'Have you witnessed your own death?' and Rudi replied 'No'. Maharaj then launched into a mini-lecture on how it was necessary to witness one's own death in order for there to be full realisation of the Self. He said that it had happened to him after he thought that he had fully realised the Self, and it wasn't until after this death experience that he understood that this process was necessary for final liberation. I hope somebody recorded this dialogue on tape because I am depending on a twenty-five-year-old memory for this. It seems to be a crucial part of Maharaj's experience and teachings but I never heard him mention it on any other occasion. I have also not come across it in any of his books. Maharaj continued to pester Rudi about the necessity of witnessing death, but Rudi kept quiet and just smiled beatifically. He refused to defend himself, and he refused to be provoked. Anyway, I don't think he was in any condition to start and sustain an argument. Whatever state he was in seemed to be compelling all his attention. I got the feeling that he found articulating even brief replies hard work. Finally, Rudi addressed the question and said, 'Why are you getting so excited about something that doesn't exist?' I assumed he meant that death was unreal, and as such, was not worth quarrelling about. Maharaj laughed, accepted the answer and gave up trying to harass him. 'Have you ever had a teacher like me?' demanded Maharaj, with a grin. 'No,' replied Rudi, 'and have you ever had a disciple like me?' They both laughed and the dialogue came to an end. I have no idea what happened to Rudi. He left and I never heard anything more about him. As they say at the end of fairy stories, he probably lived happily ever after. -- Quoted from http://davidgodman.org/interviews/nis1.shtml - " Onniko " <onniko <Realization > Friday, December 19, 2003 11:29 AM Re: self enquiry and old dead guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 > Thanks Rob: > I finally think I understand the " I " and the " I " " I " ... Great, now you can explain it to me. - " slater " <lostnfoundation <Realization > Friday, December 19, 2003 8:25 PM Re: self enquiry and old dead guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 > >>>>>slater: You should know what suppositories are to help you > interpret with more clarity. > Sorry Rob. No need to apologize -- clarity is always welcome. - " slater " <lostnfoundation <Realization > Friday, December 19, 2003 2:01 PM Re: self enquiry and old dead guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > Thanks Rob: > > I finally think I understand the " I " and the " I " " I " ... > > Great, now you can explain it to me. > Sorry again Rob: It cant be put into words. Remember that line, " I'm sick of words " . Aloha at 3 am, slater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.