Guest guest Posted December 17, 2000 Report Share Posted December 17, 2000 Dear Fellow Members of the group May I ask some questions? I would be grateful if anyone can help to explain the differences between the jiva and the Self. Is the jiva existent or non-existent? If the jiva is non-existent, is the jiva the seeker? If the jiva is the seeker, is the jiva in search of himself? If the seeker is in search of himself, can the non-existent jiva be in search of the Self? How can the Self be in search of the Self? How can the Self forget the Self? Is the Self the existent or the non-existent? If the Self is the non-existent, is the non-existent jiva a different form of non-existence? Why am I identified with the jiva? How long have I been identified with the jiva? Was I identified with the jiva before conception? How can I cease to identify with the jiva? Permanently? When I cease to identify with the jiva, what happens to him? Why does the jiva believe he is a self? If the jiva is non-existent, how does he exist in my consciousness, or in the universal consciousness? If I am before the jiva, how did he first appear in consciousness? Why is it very uncomfortable being a jiva? Do the jiva and the Self have anything in common? Does the Self feel compassion for the jiva? Do I have one particular jiva with which I identify, or can I identify with any of the many jivas that appear in the subtle universe? In the course of time can the Self identify with more than one jiva? Greetings to the group from John. Happy New Year. Has this happened before, and will do so again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2001 Report Share Posted January 3, 2001 Hi John, Thank you for the posting. Sorry I have not been able to respond before. I'll try to address some of your challenging questions as best as I can. According to Vedanta Jiva, the individual or the ego, comes into being as a result of false identification of the Atman with the body. Atman is the Consciousness. Jiva is like a wave on the Ocean of Self, its separation is only a concept, created by the mind. Therefore the body exists but *you* or jiva exists only as a concept in the mind by the artful (I prefer artful to false) identification. Think of the mind as a (virtual) reality machine, creating a player called *you* and interpreting the game for *you*. It's when the Consciousness/Self identifies with the player called *you* then the (virtual or real?) play of Leela takes place. In a realm of duality, when the Self steps into the Leela's play Self-forgetting as a concept and Self-remembering as a concept are the parameters that the mind operates on. Another analogy I like is...imagine the revealed reality as a movie, played, directed and written by the Self...Self playing all the roles. Again this is only an explanation from the mind's perspective. The final model of reality in the form of a little story that I'd like to indulge is that let's pretend Tolstoy wrote Anna Karenina in the year 10,000 by using a virtual reality language. The advanced technology allows each character to have consciousness. As the novel is played out in virtual format, either due to the plot or a glitch in the system, Anna becomes aware of Tolstoy and talks about her " mystical " experience. Anna's lover Vronsky claims that Tolstoy only exist in Anna's mind. Anna responds by saying that Vronsky and herself both exist in Tolstoy's mind and in fact she is Tolstoy. The question is then is Tolstoy dreaming himself to be Anna or is Anna dreaming herself to be Tolstoy? In the play of Consciousness, we can come up with various models but in truth, the sense of " I am " or Consciousness is the only capital that we're born with. " I am this or that " is a temporary attachment. Consciousness is the link to the Spirit (or Atman, Self or whatever you call). Ok, it's getting late and I'd better end this madness here. Hur --- thejohnward wrote: > Dear Fellow Members of the group > May I ask some questions? > I would be grateful if anyone can help to explain > the differences > between the jiva and the Self. > Is the jiva existent or non-existent? > If the jiva is non-existent, is the jiva the seeker? > If the jiva is the seeker, is the jiva in search of > himself? > If the seeker is in search of himself, can the > non-existent jiva > be in search of the Self? > How can the Self be in search of the Self? > How can the Self forget the Self? > Is the Self the existent or the non-existent? > If the Self is the non-existent, is the non-existent > jiva a different > form of non-existence? > Why am I identified with the jiva? > How long have I been identified with the jiva? > Was I identified with the jiva before conception? > How can I cease to identify with the jiva? > Permanently? > When I cease to identify with the jiva, what happens > to him? > Why does the jiva believe he is a self? > If the jiva is non-existent, how does he exist in my > consciousness, > or in the universal consciousness? > If I am before the jiva, how did he first appear in > consciousness? > Why is it very uncomfortable being a jiva? > Do the jiva and the Self have anything in common? > Does the Self feel compassion for the jiva? > Do I have one particular jiva with which I identify, > or can I > identify with any of the many jivas that appear in > the subtle > universe? In the course of time can the Self > identify > with more than one jiva? > > Greetings to the group from John. Happy New Year. > Has this happened before, and will do so again? > > Photos - Share your holiday photos online! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2002 Report Share Posted July 21, 2002 Nisargadatta, Hur Guler <HurG> wrote: > Hi John, > > [snip] > > Jiva is like a wave on the Ocean of Self, its > separation is only a concept, created by the mind. > Therefore the body exists but *you* or jiva exists > only as a concept in the mind by the artful (I prefer > artful to false) identification. As the mind senses the body, the false identification of *you* arises. I suppose spiritual practice mitigates the arising of *me*, you and them? > The final model of reality in the form of a little > story that I'd like to indulge is that let's pretend > Tolstoy wrote Anna Karenina in the year 10,000 by > using a virtual reality language. The advanced > technology allows each character to have > consciousness. As the novel is played out in virtual > format, either due to the plot or a glitch in the > system, Anna becomes aware of Tolstoy and talks about > her " mystical " experience. Anna's lover Vronsky > claims that Tolstoy only exist in Anna's mind. Anna > responds by saying that Vronsky and herself both exist > in Tolstoy's mind and in fact she is Tolstoy. The > question is then is Tolstoy dreaming himself to be > Anna or is Anna dreaming herself to be Tolstoy? > Nice analogy. Alittle bit of semantics though, " dreaming " and imagining is made interchangeable--the glitch didnot happen to the real live Tolstoy (he was elsewhere, maybe swimming in the Volga). Tolstoy imagined/wrote up characters, if he " dreamed " them up, we may as well agree that we're " dreaming " up these posts. Ok, all this stuff is conceptual, but I " talkin " here... > > In the play of Consciousness, we can come up with > various models but in truth, the sense of " I am " or > Consciousness is the only capital that we're born > with. " I am this or that " is a temporary attachment. > Consciousness is the link to the Spirit (or Atman, > Self or whatever you call). d_ > > > --- thejohnward@h... wrote: > > Dear Fellow Members of the group > > May I ask some questions? > > I would be grateful if anyone can help to explain > > the differences > > between the jiva and the Self. > > Is the jiva existent or non-existent? > > If the jiva is non-existent, is the jiva the seeker? > > If the jiva is the seeker, is the jiva in search of > > himself? > > If the seeker is in search of himself, can the > > non-existent jiva > > be in search of the Self? > > How can the Self be in search of the Self? > > How can the Self forget the Self? > > Is the Self the existent or the non-existent? > > If the Self is the non-existent, is the non-existent > > jiva a different > > form of non-existence? > > Why am I identified with the jiva? > > How long have I been identified with the jiva? > > Was I identified with the jiva before conception? > > How can I cease to identify with the jiva? > > Permanently? > > When I cease to identify with the jiva, what happens > > to him? > > Why does the jiva believe he is a self? > > If the jiva is non-existent, how does he exist in my > > consciousness, > > or in the universal consciousness? > > If I am before the jiva, how did he first appear in > > consciousness? > > Why is it very uncomfortable being a jiva? > > Do the jiva and the Self have anything in common? > > Does the Self feel compassion for the jiva? > > Do I have one particular jiva with which I identify, > > or can I > > identify with any of the many jivas that appear in > > the subtle > > universe? In the course of time can the Self > > identify > > with more than one jiva? > > > > Greetings to the group from John. Happy New Year. > > Has this happened before, and will do so again? > > > > > > > > > Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2002 Report Share Posted July 21, 2002 hi John, I would also like know the answer to your question, since I'm reading some non-dualist literature only 2 month. My first opinion was that it is a twist of words on the same spirituality with different terminology I know from Sant Mat. In SM aka Surat Shabd Yoga one does intense meditation with the tool of inner-light and inner-sound (Naam, Nad, the " Word " of the Bible) to 'clean' the self and the aim is to become one with god's will. I do NOT know the non-dualist terminology; but I'm convinced that the state achieved by being one with god's will is the very same state as to realise the over-self of Ramana. Of course I was attacked with this notion at Ramana's fanatical sites. Than there is my reference to me having a satori on LSD, I was sure that is the 'self' the jiva you mention, myself, my true-self no role-playing, no lyes, because anything false is not bearable in the state induced by acid. So I thought I should just recall that: it was 'awareness kept on awareness' clear consciousness (i was told that on clear-light Sandose acid the brain uses up to 30% of the other-wise normally used in waking state 10% of capacity, s I was CONSCIOUS!) To summ it up; the jiva is this honest uncorrupted self the seed of me and the myriad of selves I use in the word to function with are the false ones; deviating from this jiva. To believe that one is able as a self to experinece something void of any 'self-self' is a deam (a nice one though <grin>) The cosmic experience I had is exatly to experience that i'm a drop of the ocean of the 'whole', but it was an experience, nothing more; one can not live day to day in that satori...it is nice to KNOW... and recall from time to time... That I'm not only the body is evident for me because I'm " thinking " ... I KNOW that.. also know that I'm not my thoughts since they are " provoked' ..maybe i'm wrong here, so correct me pease void of linguistic twists on the same thought: 'that it is all imagined' lets agree on that so I don't have to hear over and over.. ~k~ where is the original post by John? Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > Nisargadatta, Hur Guler <HurG> wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > [snip] > > > > Jiva is like a wave on the Ocean of Self, its > > separation is only a concept, created by the mind. > > Therefore the body exists but *you* or jiva exists > > only as a concept in the mind by the artful (I prefer > > artful to false) identification. > > > As the mind senses the body, the false identification of *you* arises. > I suppose spiritual practice mitigates the arising of *me*, you and > them? > > > > The final model of reality in the form of a little > > story that I'd like to indulge is that let's pretend > > Tolstoy wrote Anna Karenina in the year 10,000 by > > using a virtual reality language. The advanced > > technology allows each character to have > > consciousness. As the novel is played out in virtual > > format, either due to the plot or a glitch in the > > system, Anna becomes aware of Tolstoy and talks about > > her " mystical " experience. Anna's lover Vronsky > > claims that Tolstoy only exist in Anna's mind. Anna > > responds by saying that Vronsky and herself both exist > > in Tolstoy's mind and in fact she is Tolstoy. The > > question is then is Tolstoy dreaming himself to be > > Anna or is Anna dreaming herself to be Tolstoy? > > > Nice analogy. Alittle bit of semantics though, " dreaming " and > imagining is made interchangeable--the glitch didnot happen to the > real live Tolstoy (he was elsewhere, maybe swimming in the Volga). > Tolstoy imagined/wrote up characters, if he " dreamed " them up, we > may as well agree that we're " dreaming " up these posts. Ok, all this > stuff is conceptual, but I " talkin " here... > > > > In the play of Consciousness, we can come up with > > various models but in truth, the sense of " I am " or > > Consciousness is the only capital that we're born > > with. " I am this or that " is a temporary attachment. > > Consciousness is the link to the Spirit (or Atman, > > Self or whatever you call). > > d_ > > > > > > --- thejohnward@h... wrote: > > > Dear Fellow Members of the group > > > May I ask some questions? > > > I would be grateful if anyone can help to explain > > > the differences > > > between the jiva and the Self. > > > Is the jiva existent or non-existent? > > > If the jiva is non-existent, is the jiva the seeker? > > > If the jiva is the seeker, is the jiva in search of > > > himself? > > > If the seeker is in search of himself, can the > > > non-existent jiva > > > be in search of the Self? > > > How can the Self be in search of the Self? > > > How can the Self forget the Self? > > > Is the Self the existent or the non-existent? > > > If the Self is the non-existent, is the non-existent > > > jiva a different > > > form of non-existence? > > > Why am I identified with the jiva? > > > How long have I been identified with the jiva? > > > Was I identified with the jiva before conception? > > > How can I cease to identify with the jiva? > > > Permanently? > > > When I cease to identify with the jiva, what happens > > > to him? > > > Why does the jiva believe he is a self? > > > If the jiva is non-existent, how does he exist in my > > > consciousness, > > > or in the universal consciousness? > > > If I am before the jiva, how did he first appear in > > > consciousness? > > > Why is it very uncomfortable being a jiva? > > > Do the jiva and the Self have anything in common? > > > Does the Self feel compassion for the jiva? > > > Do I have one particular jiva with which I identify, > > > or can I > > > identify with any of the many jivas that appear in > > > the subtle > > > universe? In the course of time can the Self > > > identify > > > with more than one jiva? > > > > > > Greetings to the group from John. Happy New Year. > > > Has this happened before, and will do so again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2002 Report Share Posted July 21, 2002 wow d, a ghost post from the past. Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > Nisargadatta, Hur Guler <HurG> wrote: > As the mind senses the body, the false identification of *you* arises. > I suppose spiritual practice mitigates the arising of *me*, you and > them? perhaps but i prefer the term " artful " identification to " false. " why not call this identification as the " existence's artful exploration of the endless possibilities " rather than false? false indicates an error, a major screw up in the system and as if the spiritual practice is the solution to this glitch. i don't see the mind and ego as the bad guys but as the colorful actors on the stage. some guys like to work on their convertible red mustang in the garage and i happen to enjoy fine tuning the models of reality but i admit lately i am riding the lazy wave of " no model. " it must be the summer. ok it's beachtime soon. hur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2002 Report Share Posted July 21, 2002 yes hurg, " artful " is a better word than false.. ~k~ <grin> Nisargadatta, " hurg " <hurg> wrote: > wow d, > > a ghost post from the past. > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > Nisargadatta, Hur Guler <HurG> wrote: > > As the mind senses the body, the false identification of *you* > arises. > > I suppose spiritual practice mitigates the arising of *me*, you and > > them? > > perhaps but i prefer the term " artful " identification to " false. " why > not call this identification as the " existence's artful exploration > of the endless possibilities " rather than false? false indicates an > error, a major screw up in the system and as if the spiritual > practice is the solution to this glitch. i don't see the mind and > ego as the bad guys but as the colorful actors on the stage. some > guys like to work on their convertible red mustang in the garage and > i happen to enjoy fine tuning the models of reality but i admit > lately i am riding the lazy wave of " no model. " it must be the > summer. ok it's beachtime soon. > > hur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 hi satkartar, I was fishing through some early Nisarg group posts and that is one. Some of those early exchanges are juicy. That poster was definitely aiming at the meat of spiritual cosmology, hopefully his quest has been " answered " and he no longer has to hanker for answers. Why do I sense that you enjoy a good debate? " I was attacked with this notion at Ramana's fanatical sites. " My understanding is that Advaita challenges the conception found in Santmat and other religio-philosophies that fosters separateness between God and " man " . Santmat will go as far as to say that " God is as close to you as your jugular vein is " and that you don't have to go anywhere to find God. Yet there are other metaphors that project distance between Self and Other. That God has a location, whether it's in or out, distance in implied. I'm not one to speak Advaita and indeed there are many rs of Nisargadatta and RM teachings who seem to disdain speaking and expounding..... " it's all conceptual you see " ... I have only one cherished LSD story, and I like your input about your experience and insights. cya around d_agenda > hi John, I would also like know the answer to your question, since I'm reading some non-dualist literature only 2 month. My first opinion was that it is a twist of words on the same spirituality with different terminology I know from Sant Mat. In SM aka Surat Shabd Yoga one does intense meditation with the tool of inner-light and inner-sound (Naam, Nad, the " Word " of the Bible) to 'clean' the self and > the aim is to become one with god's will. I do NOT know the non- dualist terminology; but I'm convinced that the state achieved by being one with god's will is the very same state as to realise the over-self of Ramana. Of course I was attacked with this notion at Ramana's fanatical sites. > > Than there is my reference to me having a satori on LSD, I was sure that is the 'self' the jiva you mention, myself, my true-self no role- playing, no lyes, because anything false is not bearable in the state induced by acid. So I thought I should just recall that: it was 'awareness kept on awareness' clear consciousness (i was told that on clear-light Sandose acid the brain uses up to 30% of the other-wise normally used in waking state 10% of capacity, s I was CONSCIOUS!) > > To summ it up; the jiva is this honest uncorrupted self the seed of me and the myriad of selves I use in the word to function with are the false ones; > deviating from this jiva. To believe that > one is able as a self to experinece something void of any 'self- self' is a > deam (a nice one though <grin>) The cosmic > experience I had is exatly to experience that i'm a drop of the ocean of the > 'whole', but it was an experience, nothing > more; one can not live day to day in that satori...it is nice to KNOW... and recall from time to time... > > That I'm not only the body is evident > for me because I'm " thinking " ... I KNOW that.. also know that I'm not my thoughts since they are " provoked' ..maybe i'm > wrong here, so correct me pease void of linguistic twists on the same thought: > 'that it is all imagined' lets agree on > that so I don't have to hear over > and over.. > > ~k~ > where is the original post by John? > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > Nisargadatta, Hur Guler <HurG> wrote: > > > Hi John, > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > Jiva is like a wave on the Ocean of Self, its > > > separation is only a concept, created by the mind. > > > Therefore the body exists but *you* or jiva exists > > > only as a concept in the mind by the artful (I prefer > > > artful to false) identification. > > > > > > As the mind senses the body, the false identification of *you* arises. > > I suppose spiritual practice mitigates the arising of *me*, you and > > them? > > > > > > > The final model of reality in the form of a little > > > story that I'd like to indulge is that let's pretend > > > Tolstoy wrote Anna Karenina in the year 10,000 by > > > using a virtual reality language. The advanced > > > technology allows each character to have > > > consciousness. As the novel is played out in virtual > > > format, either due to the plot or a glitch in the > > > system, Anna becomes aware of Tolstoy and talks about > > > her " mystical " experience. Anna's lover Vronsky > > > claims that Tolstoy only exist in Anna's mind. Anna > > > responds by saying that Vronsky and herself both exist > > > in Tolstoy's mind and in fact she is Tolstoy. The > > > question is then is Tolstoy dreaming himself to be > > > Anna or is Anna dreaming herself to be Tolstoy? > > > > > Nice analogy. Alittle bit of semantics though, " dreaming " and > > imagining is made interchangeable--the glitch didnot happen to the > > real live Tolstoy (he was elsewhere, maybe swimming in the Volga). > > Tolstoy imagined/wrote up characters, if he " dreamed " them up, we > > may as well agree that we're " dreaming " up these posts. Ok, all this > > stuff is conceptual, but I " talkin " here... > > > > > > In the play of Consciousness, we can come up with > > > various models but in truth, the sense of " I am " or > > > Consciousness is the only capital that we're born > > > with. " I am this or that " is a temporary attachment. > > > Consciousness is the link to the Spirit (or Atman, > > > Self or whatever you call). > > > > d_ > > > > > > > > > --- thejohnward@h... wrote: > > > > Dear Fellow Members of the group > > > > May I ask some questions? > > > > I would be grateful if anyone can help to explain > > > > the differences > > > > between the jiva and the Self. > > > > Is the jiva existent or non-existent? > > > > If the jiva is non-existent, is the jiva the seeker? > > > > If the jiva is the seeker, is the jiva in search of > > > > himself? > > > > If the seeker is in search of himself, can the > > > > non-existent jiva > > > > be in search of the Self? > > > > How can the Self be in search of the Self? > > > > How can the Self forget the Self? > > > > Is the Self the existent or the non-existent? > > > > If the Self is the non-existent, is the non-existent > > > > jiva a different > > > > form of non-existence? > > > > Why am I identified with the jiva? > > > > How long have I been identified with the jiva? > > > > Was I identified with the jiva before conception? > > > > How can I cease to identify with the jiva? > > > > Permanently? > > > > When I cease to identify with the jiva, what happens > > > > to him? > > > > Why does the jiva believe he is a self? > > > > If the jiva is non-existent, how does he exist in my > > > > consciousness, > > > > or in the universal consciousness? > > > > If I am before the jiva, how did he first appear in > > > > consciousness? > > > > Why is it very uncomfortable being a jiva? > > > > Do the jiva and the Self have anything in common? > > > > Does the Self feel compassion for the jiva? > > > > Do I have one particular jiva with which I identify, > > > > or can I > > > > identify with any of the many jivas that appear in > > > > the subtle > > > > universe? In the course of time can the Self > > > > identify > > > > with more than one jiva? > > > > > > > > Greetings to the group from John. Happy New Year. > > > > Has this happened before, and will do so again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2002 Report Share Posted July 23, 2002 hi jc, it is evident from your posts that you communication skills are great, for me english is a second language.. so I'm not much in a debate mode. --you didn't answer <smile>: are you interested in the psychology side of these subjects...? What you write about Sant Mat is true, but I don't see the 'seperastion'.. I'm just now working on the similarities the sameness of the STATE as the end result of all spiritual quest being the same (the " View " under construction http://santmat-meditation.net/view.html ) for this statement I was attacked at fanatical Ramana site too; and was reminded that his state is unique and his alone etc (cultic BS) I think, that the godintoxicated state of Rumi and Kabir the great sufi poet who 'started' the Sant Mat tradition is: to be one with god, with god's will is the same state as to become the 'SELF' of Advaita. --what do you think? I think LSD (Sandos clearlight) is as close to the awareness, conscious yet cosmic state as one get, for this statement my fellow yogies yelled at me <grin>-- what is your memory...? ~k~ Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > > > > hi satkartar, > I was fishing through some early Nisarg group posts and that is one. > Some of those early exchanges are juicy. That poster was definitely > aiming at the meat of spiritual cosmology, hopefully his quest has > been " answered " and he no longer has to hanker for answers. > > Why do I sense that you enjoy a good debate? > " I was attacked with this notion at Ramana's fanatical sites. " > > My understanding is that Advaita challenges the > conception found in Santmat and other religio-philosophies that > fosters separateness between God and " man " . Santmat will go as far as > to say that " God is as close to you as your jugular vein is " and that > you don't have to go anywhere to find God. Yet there are > other metaphors that project distance between Self and Other. > That God has a location, whether it's in or out, distance in implied. > I'm not one to speak Advaita and indeed there are many rs of > Nisargadatta and RM teachings who seem to disdain speaking and > expounding..... " it's all conceptual you see " ... > > I have only one cherished LSD story, and I like your input about your > experience and insights. > > > cya around > d_agenda > > > > > > hi John, I would also like know the answer to your question, since > I'm reading some non-dualist literature only 2 month. My first > opinion was that it is a twist of words on the same spirituality with > different terminology I know from Sant Mat. In SM aka Surat Shabd > Yoga one does intense meditation with the tool of inner-light and > inner-sound (Naam, Nad, the " Word " of the Bible) to 'clean' the self > and > > the aim is to become one with god's will. I do NOT know the non- > dualist terminology; but I'm convinced that the state achieved by > being one with god's will is the very same state as to realise the > over-self of Ramana. Of course I was attacked with this notion at > Ramana's fanatical sites. > > > > Than there is my reference to me having a satori on LSD, I was sure > that is the 'self' the jiva you mention, myself, my true-self no role- > playing, no lyes, because anything false is not bearable in the state > induced by acid. So I thought I should just recall that: it > was 'awareness kept on awareness' clear consciousness (i was told > that on clear-light Sandose acid the brain uses up to 30% of the > other-wise normally used in waking state 10% of capacity, s I was > CONSCIOUS!) > > > > To summ it up; the jiva is this honest uncorrupted self the seed of > me and the myriad of selves I use in the word to function with are > the false ones; > > deviating from this jiva. To believe that > > one is able as a self to experinece something void of any 'self- > self' is a > > deam (a nice one though <grin>) The cosmic > > experience I had is exatly to experience that i'm a drop of the > ocean of the > > 'whole', but it was an experience, nothing > > more; one can not live day to day in that satori...it is nice to > KNOW... and recall from time to time... > > > > That I'm not only the body is evident > > for me because I'm " thinking " ... I KNOW that.. also know that I'm > not my thoughts since they are " provoked' ..maybe i'm > > wrong here, so correct me pease void of linguistic twists on the > same thought: > > 'that it is all imagined' lets agree on > > that so I don't have to hear over > > and over.. > > > > ~k~ > > where is the original post by John? > > > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta, Hur Guler <HurG> wrote: > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > Jiva is like a wave on the Ocean of Self, its > > > > separation is only a concept, created by the mind. > > > > Therefore the body exists but *you* or jiva exists > > > > only as a concept in the mind by the artful (I prefer > > > > artful to false) identification. > > > > > > > > > As the mind senses the body, the false identification of *you* > arises. > > > I suppose spiritual practice mitigates the arising of *me*, you > and > > > them? > > > > > > > > > > The final model of reality in the form of a little > > > > story that I'd like to indulge is that let's pretend > > > > Tolstoy wrote Anna Karenina in the year 10,000 by > > > > using a virtual reality language. The advanced > > > > technology allows each character to have > > > > consciousness. As the novel is played out in virtual > > > > format, either due to the plot or a glitch in the > > > > system, Anna becomes aware of Tolstoy and talks about > > > > her " mystical " experience. Anna's lover Vronsky > > > > claims that Tolstoy only exist in Anna's mind. Anna > > > > responds by saying that Vronsky and herself both exist > > > > in Tolstoy's mind and in fact she is Tolstoy. The > > > > question is then is Tolstoy dreaming himself to be > > > > Anna or is Anna dreaming herself to be Tolstoy? > > > > > > > Nice analogy. Alittle bit of semantics though, " dreaming " and > > > imagining is made interchangeable--the glitch didnot happen to > the > > > real live Tolstoy (he was elsewhere, maybe swimming in the Volga). > > > Tolstoy imagined/wrote up characters, if he " dreamed " them up, > we > > > may as well agree that we're " dreaming " up these posts. Ok, all > this > > > stuff is conceptual, but I " talkin " here... > > > > > > > > In the play of Consciousness, we can come up with > > > > various models but in truth, the sense of " I am " or > > > > Consciousness is the only capital that we're born > > > > with. " I am this or that " is a temporary attachment. > > > > Consciousness is the link to the Spirit (or Atman, > > > > Self or whatever you call). > > > > > > d_ > > > > > > > > > > > > --- thejohnward@h... wrote: > > > > > Dear Fellow Members of the group > > > > > May I ask some questions? > > > > > I would be grateful if anyone can help to explain > > > > > the differences > > > > > between the jiva and the Self. > > > > > Is the jiva existent or non-existent? > > > > > If the jiva is non-existent, is the jiva the seeker? > > > > > If the jiva is the seeker, is the jiva in search of > > > > > himself? > > > > > If the seeker is in search of himself, can the > > > > > non-existent jiva > > > > > be in search of the Self? > > > > > How can the Self be in search of the Self? > > > > > How can the Self forget the Self? > > > > > Is the Self the existent or the non-existent? > > > > > If the Self is the non-existent, is the non-existent > > > > > jiva a different > > > > > form of non-existence? > > > > > Why am I identified with the jiva? > > > > > How long have I been identified with the jiva? > > > > > Was I identified with the jiva before conception? > > > > > How can I cease to identify with the jiva? > > > > > Permanently? > > > > > When I cease to identify with the jiva, what happens > > > > > to him? > > > > > Why does the jiva believe he is a self? > > > > > If the jiva is non-existent, how does he exist in my > > > > > consciousness, > > > > > or in the universal consciousness? > > > > > If I am before the jiva, how did he first appear in > > > > > consciousness? > > > > > Why is it very uncomfortable being a jiva? > > > > > Do the jiva and the Self have anything in common? > > > > > Does the Self feel compassion for the jiva? > > > > > Do I have one particular jiva with which I identify, > > > > > or can I > > > > > identify with any of the many jivas that appear in > > > > > the subtle > > > > > universe? In the course of time can the Self > > > > > identify > > > > > with more than one jiva? > > > > > > > > > > Greetings to the group from John. Happy New Year. > > > > > Has this happened before, and will do so again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2002 Report Share Posted July 23, 2002 Hi Satkartar, With these teachings, from Santmat and talks by Nisargadatta, a difference may be in the approach to God (the only Ramana Maharishi material I've seen is from the RM groups and I haven't attended to that). Thakar Singh speaks volumes on how God is a perfect, loving being. Thereby, there is God and godliness. If Nisargadatta speaks of Self in these terms then I've missed them. Pershaps in Nisargadatta Advaita God is another concept and story, and Self is Formlessnss. Also, where is no emphasis on godliness, in the sense of " do- rightness " or moral duties. Sure, the LSD is a catalyst for synaptic activity and produces a hyper-perception. It can assist with creative, artistic projects but my sense is that it's too much of a threat to the brain and nervous system. d_agenda In Nisargadatta, " satkartar5 " <mi_nok> wrote: > hi jc, it is evident from your posts that you communication skills are great, for me english is a second language.. so I'm not much in a debate mode. --you didn't answer <smile>: are you interested in the psychology side of these subjects...? > > What you write about Sant Mat is true, but I don't see the 'seperastion'.. I'm just now working on the similarities the sameness of the STATE as the end result of all spiritual quest being the same (the " View " under construction http://santmat- meditation.net/view.html ) for this statement I was attacked at fanatical Ramana site too; and was reminded that his state is unique and his alone etc (cultic BS) I think, that the godintoxicated state of Rumi and Kabir the great sufi poet who 'started' the Sant Mat tradition is: to be one with god, with god's will is the same state as to become the 'SELF' of Advaita. > > --what do you think? > > I think LSD (Sandos clearlight) is > as close to the awareness, conscious yet cosmic state as one get, for this > statement my fellow yogies yelled at me <grin>-- what is your memory...? > > ~k~ > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hi satkartar, > > I was fishing through some early Nisarg group posts and that is one. > > Some of those early exchanges are juicy. That poster was definitely > > aiming at the meat of spiritual cosmology, hopefully his quest has > > been " answered " and he no longer has to hanker for answers. > > > > Why do I sense that you enjoy a good debate? > > " I was attacked with this notion at Ramana's fanatical sites. " > > > > My understanding is that Advaita challenges the > > conception found in Santmat and other religio-philosophies that > > fosters separateness between God and " man " . Santmat will go as far as > > to say that " God is as close to you as your jugular vein is " and that > > you don't have to go anywhere to find God. Yet there are > > other metaphors that project distance between Self and Other. > > That God has a location, whether it's in or out, distance in implied. > > I'm not one to speak Advaita and indeed there are many rs of > > Nisargadatta and RM teachings who seem to disdain speaking and > > expounding..... " it's all conceptual you see " ... > > > > I have only one cherished LSD story, and I like your input about your > > experience and insights. > > > > > > cya around > > d_agenda > > > > > > > > > > > hi John, I would also like know the answer to your question, since > > I'm reading some non-dualist literature only 2 month. My first > > opinion was that it is a twist of words on the same spirituality with > > different terminology I know from Sant Mat. In SM aka Surat Shabd > > Yoga one does intense meditation with the tool of inner-light and > > inner-sound (Naam, Nad, the " Word " of the Bible) to 'clean' the self > > and > > > the aim is to become one with god's will. I do NOT know the non- > > dualist terminology; but I'm convinced that the state achieved by > > being one with god's will is the very same state as to realise the > > over-self of Ramana. Of course I was attacked with this notion at > > Ramana's fanatical sites. > > > > > > Than there is my reference to me having a satori on LSD, I was sure > > that is the 'self' the jiva you mention, myself, my true-self no role- > > playing, no lyes, because anything false is not bearable in the state > > induced by acid. So I thought I should just recall that: it > > was 'awareness kept on awareness' clear consciousness (i was told > > that on clear-light Sandose acid the brain uses up to 30% of the > > other-wise normally used in waking state 10% of capacity, s I was > > CONSCIOUS!) > > > > > > To summ it up; the jiva is this honest uncorrupted self the seed of > > me and the myriad of selves I use in the word to function with are > > the false ones; > > > deviating from this jiva. To believe that > > > one is able as a self to experinece something void of any 'self- > > self' is a > > > deam (a nice one though <grin>) The cosmic > > > experience I had is exatly to experience that i'm a drop of the > > ocean of the > > > 'whole', but it was an experience, nothing > > > more; one can not live day to day in that satori...it is nice to > > KNOW... and recall from time to time... > > > > > > That I'm not only the body is evident > > > for me because I'm " thinking " ... I KNOW that.. also know that I'm > > not my thoughts since they are " provoked' ..maybe i'm > > > wrong here, so correct me pease void of linguistic twists on the > > same thought: > > > 'that it is all imagined' lets agree on > > > that so I don't have to hear over > > > and over.. > > > > > > ~k~ > > > where is the original post by John? > > > > > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta, Hur Guler <HurG> wrote: > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > Jiva is like a wave on the Ocean of Self, its > > > > > separation is only a concept, created by the mind. > > > > > Therefore the body exists but *you* or jiva exists > > > > > only as a concept in the mind by the artful (I prefer > > > > > artful to false) identification. > > > > > > > > > > > > As the mind senses the body, the false identification of *you* > > arises. > > > > I suppose spiritual practice mitigates the arising of *me*, you > > and > > > > them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > The final model of reality in the form of a little > > > > > story that I'd like to indulge is that let's pretend > > > > > Tolstoy wrote Anna Karenina in the year 10,000 by > > > > > using a virtual reality language. The advanced > > > > > technology allows each character to have > > > > > consciousness. As the novel is played out in virtual > > > > > format, either due to the plot or a glitch in the > > > > > system, Anna becomes aware of Tolstoy and talks about > > > > > her " mystical " experience. Anna's lover Vronsky > > > > > claims that Tolstoy only exist in Anna's mind. Anna > > > > > responds by saying that Vronsky and herself both exist > > > > > in Tolstoy's mind and in fact she is Tolstoy. The > > > > > question is then is Tolstoy dreaming himself to be > > > > > Anna or is Anna dreaming herself to be Tolstoy? > > > > > > > > > Nice analogy. Alittle bit of semantics though, " dreaming " and > > > > imagining is made interchangeable--the glitch didnot happen to > > the > > > > real live Tolstoy (he was elsewhere, maybe swimming in the Volga). > > > > Tolstoy imagined/wrote up characters, if he " dreamed " them up, > > we > > > > may as well agree that we're " dreaming " up these posts. Ok, all > > this > > > > stuff is conceptual, but I " talkin " here... > > > > > > > > > > In the play of Consciousness, we can come up with > > > > > various models but in truth, the sense of " I am " or > > > > > Consciousness is the only capital that we're born > > > > > with. " I am this or that " is a temporary attachment. > > > > > Consciousness is the link to the Spirit (or Atman, > > > > > Self or whatever you call). > > > > > > > > d_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- thejohnward@h... wrote: > > > > > > Dear Fellow Members of the group > > > > > > May I ask some questions? > > > > > > I would be grateful if anyone can help to explain > > > > > > the differences > > > > > > between the jiva and the Self. > > > > > > Is the jiva existent or non-existent? > > > > > > If the jiva is non-existent, is the jiva the seeker? > > > > > > If the jiva is the seeker, is the jiva in search of > > > > > > himself? > > > > > > If the seeker is in search of himself, can the > > > > > > non-existent jiva > > > > > > be in search of the Self? > > > > > > How can the Self be in search of the Self? > > > > > > How can the Self forget the Self? > > > > > > Is the Self the existent or the non-existent? > > > > > > If the Self is the non-existent, is the non-existent > > > > > > jiva a different > > > > > > form of non-existence? > > > > > > Why am I identified with the jiva? > > > > > > How long have I been identified with the jiva? > > > > > > Was I identified with the jiva before conception? > > > > > > How can I cease to identify with the jiva? > > > > > > Permanently? > > > > > > When I cease to identify with the jiva, what happens > > > > > > to him? > > > > > > Why does the jiva believe he is a self? > > > > > > If the jiva is non-existent, how does he exist in my > > > > > > consciousness, > > > > > > or in the universal consciousness? > > > > > > If I am before the jiva, how did he first appear in > > > > > > consciousness? > > > > > > Why is it very uncomfortable being a jiva? > > > > > > Do the jiva and the Self have anything in common? > > > > > > Does the Self feel compassion for the jiva? > > > > > > Do I have one particular jiva with which I identify, > > > > > > or can I > > > > > > identify with any of the many jivas that appear in > > > > > > the subtle > > > > > > universe? In the course of time can the Self > > > > > > identify > > > > > > with more than one jiva? > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings to the group from John. Happy New Year. > > > > > > Has this happened before, and will do so again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2002 Report Share Posted July 23, 2002 Dear K, What has a beginning (as a LSD/Clear-light acid bliss-out) also has an end. The problem is " Can you sustain that karmic-consciousness feeling you experienced constantly " ? Namaste, ---- Anand --- satkartar5 <mi_nok wrote: > hi jc, it is evident from your posts that you > communication skills are great, for me english is a > second language.. so I'm not much in a debate mode. > --you didn't answer <smile>: are you interested in > the psychology side of these subjects...? > > What you write about Sant Mat is true, but I don't > see the 'seperastion'.. I'm just now working on the > similarities the sameness of the STATE as the end > result of all spiritual quest being the same (the > " View " under construction > http://santmat-meditation.net/view.html ) for this > statement I was attacked at fanatical Ramana site > too; and was reminded that his state is unique and > his alone etc (cultic BS) I think, that the > godintoxicated state of Rumi and Kabir the great > sufi poet who 'started' the Sant Mat tradition is: > to be one with god, with god's will is the same > state as to become the 'SELF' of Advaita. > > --what do you think? > > I think LSD (Sandos clearlight) is > as close to the awareness, conscious yet cosmic > state as one get, for this > statement my fellow yogies yelled at me <grin>-- > what is your memory...? > > ~k~ > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " > <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hi satkartar, > > I was fishing through some early Nisarg group > posts and that is one. > > Some of those early exchanges are juicy. That > poster was definitely > > aiming at the meat of spiritual cosmology, > hopefully his quest has > > been " answered " and he no longer has to hanker for > answers. > > > > Why do I sense that you enjoy a good debate? > > " I was attacked with this notion at Ramana's > fanatical sites. " > > > > My understanding is that Advaita challenges the > > conception found in Santmat and other > religio-philosophies that > > fosters separateness between God and " man " . > Santmat will go as far as > > to say that " God is as close to you as your > jugular vein is " and that > > you don't have to go anywhere to find God. Yet > there are > > other metaphors that project distance between Self > and Other. > > That God has a location, whether it's in or out, > distance in implied. > > I'm not one to speak Advaita and indeed there are > many rs of > > Nisargadatta and RM teachings who seem to disdain > speaking and > > expounding..... " it's all conceptual you see " ... > > > > I have only one cherished LSD story, and I like > your input about your > > experience and insights. > > > > > > cya around > > d_agenda > > > > > > > > > > > hi John, I would also like know the answer to > your question, since > > I'm reading some non-dualist literature only 2 > month. My first > > opinion was that it is a twist of words on the > same spirituality with > > different terminology I know from Sant Mat. In SM > aka Surat Shabd > > Yoga one does intense meditation with the tool of > inner-light and > > inner-sound (Naam, Nad, the " Word " of the Bible) > to 'clean' the self > > and > > > the aim is to become one with god's will. I do > NOT know the non- > > dualist terminology; but I'm convinced that the > state achieved by > > being one with god's will is the very same state > as to realise the > > over-self of Ramana. Of course I was attacked with > this notion at > > Ramana's fanatical sites. > > > > > > Than there is my reference to me having a satori > on LSD, I was sure > > that is the 'self' the jiva you mention, myself, > my true-self no role- > > playing, no lyes, because anything false is not > bearable in the state > > induced by acid. So I thought I should just recall > that: it > > was 'awareness kept on awareness' clear > consciousness (i was told > > that on clear-light Sandose acid the brain uses up > to 30% of the > > other-wise normally used in waking state 10% of > capacity, s I was > > CONSCIOUS!) > > > > > > To summ it up; the jiva is this honest > uncorrupted self the seed of > > me and the myriad of selves I use in the word to > function with are > > the false ones; > > > deviating from this jiva. To believe that > > > one is able as a self to experinece something > void of any 'self- > > self' is a > > > deam (a nice one though <grin>) The cosmic > > > experience I had is exatly to experience that > i'm a drop of the > > ocean of the > > > 'whole', but it was an experience, nothing > > > more; one can not live day to day in that > satori...it is nice to > > KNOW... and recall from time to time... > > > > > > That I'm not only the body is evident > > > for me because I'm " thinking " ... I KNOW that.. > also know that I'm > > not my thoughts since they are " provoked' ..maybe > i'm > > > wrong here, so correct me pease void of > linguistic twists on the > > same thought: > > > 'that it is all imagined' lets agree on > > > that so I don't have to hear over > > > and over.. > > > > > > ~k~ > > > where is the original post by John? > > > > > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " > <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta, Hur Guler > <HurG> wrote: > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > Jiva is like a wave on the Ocean of Self, > its > > > > > separation is only a concept, created by the > mind. > > > > > Therefore the body exists but *you* or jiva > exists > > > > > only as a concept in the mind by the artful > (I prefer > > > > > artful to false) identification. > > > > > > > > > > > > As the mind senses the body, the false > identification of *you* > > arises. > > > > I suppose spiritual practice mitigates the > arising of *me*, you > > and > > > > them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > The final model of reality in the form of a > little > > > > > story that I'd like to indulge is that let's > pretend > > > > > Tolstoy wrote Anna Karenina in the year > 10,000 by > > > > > using a virtual reality language. The > advanced > > > > > technology allows each character to have > > > > > consciousness. As the novel is played out > in virtual > > > > > format, either due to the plot or a glitch > in the > > > > > system, Anna becomes aware of Tolstoy and > talks about > > > > > her " mystical " experience. Anna's lover > Vronsky > > > > > claims that Tolstoy only exist in Anna's > mind. Anna > > > > > responds by saying that Vronsky and herself > both exist > === message truncated === ______________________ Want to sell your car? advertise on Autos Classifieds. It's Free!! visit http://in.autos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2002 Report Share Posted July 23, 2002 hi d_aggenda, I am very selective with my believes and couldn't follow any teaching as a whole sofar. Sant Thakar is a satguru; his initiation is sakti-path pranahuti and an opening of the third eye all in one, but he comes from a small Indian village, his anecdotes and talks are permeated with the sikh culture and he recites the speeches of his beloved master: Kirpal, who spoke Oxford english and was respected in spiritual circles in the West as well as in India but mentioned god's name a million times...I like the godintoxicated poetry like Rumi, not the 'talks'. For me Thakar's talks are either gibberish, or deep deep symbolic text, chit chat he used to kill time with on stage during Darshan 'giving' satsang, and that was his main 'teaching'. He believed in meditation and I also belive in practice more and I like to have an idea of the STATE aimed at .... Vichara sounds OK, but I just left a sangat due to their cultic thinking language and unnecessary dogma-believes, so I'm careful now before I follow any other.. --besides I think I found a short-cut to this advaita realisation: to recall my acid induced state and other states I experienced and I think they were the 'awareness kept on awareness' centered states .. I'm searching and this group is encouraging you seem to be void of cultic dogmatic thinking believe in objectivity and reality and the here and NOW.. ~k~ Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > Hi Satkartar, > > With these teachings, from Santmat and talks by Nisargadatta, a > difference may be in the approach to God (the only Ramana Maharishi > material I've seen is from the RM groups and I haven't attended to > that). Thakar Singh speaks volumes on how God is a perfect, loving > being. Thereby, there is God and godliness. > If Nisargadatta speaks of Self in these terms then I've missed them. > Pershaps in Nisargadatta Advaita God is another concept and story, > and Self is Formlessnss. > Also, where is no emphasis on godliness, in the sense of " do- > rightness " or moral duties. > > Sure, the LSD is a catalyst for synaptic activity and produces a > hyper-perception. It can assist with creative, artistic projects but > my sense is that it's too much of a threat to the brain and nervous > system. > > > > d_agenda > > > > > In Nisargadatta, " satkartar5 " <mi_nok> wrote: > > hi jc, it is evident from your posts that you communication skills > are great, for me english is a second language.. so I'm not much in a > debate mode. --you didn't answer <smile>: are you interested in the > psychology side of these subjects...? > > > > What you write about Sant Mat is true, but I don't see > the 'seperastion'.. I'm just now working on the similarities the > sameness of the STATE as the end result of all spiritual quest being > the same (the " View " under construction http://santmat- > meditation.net/view.html ) for this statement I was attacked at > fanatical Ramana site too; and was reminded that his state is unique > and his alone etc (cultic BS) I think, that the godintoxicated state > of Rumi and Kabir the great sufi poet who 'started' the Sant Mat > tradition is: to be one with god, with god's will is the same state > as to become the 'SELF' of Advaita. > > > > --what do you think? > > > > I think LSD (Sandos clearlight) is > > as close to the awareness, conscious yet cosmic state as one get, > for this > > statement my fellow yogies yelled at me <grin>-- what is your > memory...? > > > > ~k~ > > > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi satkartar, > > > I was fishing through some early Nisarg group posts and that is > one. > > > Some of those early exchanges are juicy. That poster was > definitely > > > aiming at the meat of spiritual cosmology, hopefully his quest > has > > > been " answered " and he no longer has to hanker for answers. > > > > > > Why do I sense that you enjoy a good debate? > > > " I was attacked with this notion at Ramana's fanatical sites. " > > > > > > My understanding is that Advaita challenges the > > > conception found in Santmat and other religio-philosophies that > > > fosters separateness between God and " man " . Santmat will go as > far as > > > to say that " God is as close to you as your jugular vein is " and > that > > > you don't have to go anywhere to find God. Yet there are > > > other metaphors that project distance between Self and Other. > > > That God has a location, whether it's in or out, distance in > implied. > > > I'm not one to speak Advaita and indeed there are many > rs of > > > Nisargadatta and RM teachings who seem to disdain speaking and > > > expounding..... " it's all conceptual you see " ... > > > > > > I have only one cherished LSD story, and I like your input about > your > > > experience and insights. > > > > > > > > > cya around > > > d_agenda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi John, I would also like know the answer to your question, > since > > > I'm reading some non-dualist literature only 2 month. My first > > > opinion was that it is a twist of words on the same spirituality > with > > > different terminology I know from Sant Mat. In SM aka Surat Shabd > > > Yoga one does intense meditation with the tool of inner-light and > > > inner-sound (Naam, Nad, the " Word " of the Bible) to 'clean' the > self > > > and > > > > the aim is to become one with god's will. I do NOT know the non- > > > dualist terminology; but I'm convinced that the state achieved by > > > being one with god's will is the very same state as to realise > the > > > over-self of Ramana. Of course I was attacked with this notion at > > > Ramana's fanatical sites. > > > > > > > > Than there is my reference to me having a satori on LSD, I was > sure > > > that is the 'self' the jiva you mention, myself, my true-self no > role- > > > playing, no lyes, because anything false is not bearable in the > state > > > induced by acid. So I thought I should just recall that: it > > > was 'awareness kept on awareness' clear consciousness (i was told > > > that on clear-light Sandose acid the brain uses up to 30% of the > > > other-wise normally used in waking state 10% of capacity, s I was > > > CONSCIOUS!) > > > > > > > > To summ it up; the jiva is this honest uncorrupted self the > seed of > > > me and the myriad of selves I use in the word to function with > are > > > the false ones; > > > > deviating from this jiva. To believe that > > > > one is able as a self to experinece something void of > any 'self- > > > self' is a > > > > deam (a nice one though <grin>) The cosmic > > > > experience I had is exatly to experience that i'm a drop of > the > > > ocean of the > > > > 'whole', but it was an experience, nothing > > > > more; one can not live day to day in that satori...it is nice > to > > > KNOW... and recall from time to time... > > > > > > > > That I'm not only the body is evident > > > > for me because I'm " thinking " ... I KNOW that.. also know that > I'm > > > not my thoughts since they are " provoked' ..maybe i'm > > > > wrong here, so correct me pease void of linguistic twists on > the > > > same thought: > > > > 'that it is all imagined' lets agree on > > > > that so I don't have to hear over > > > > and over.. > > > > > > > > ~k~ > > > > where is the original post by John? > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> > wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta, Hur Guler <HurG> wrote: > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > > > Jiva is like a wave on the Ocean of Self, its > > > > > > separation is only a concept, created by the mind. > > > > > > Therefore the body exists but *you* or jiva exists > > > > > > only as a concept in the mind by the artful (I prefer > > > > > > artful to false) identification. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the mind senses the body, the false identification of > *you* > > > arises. > > > > > I suppose spiritual practice mitigates the arising of *me*, > you > > > and > > > > > them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The final model of reality in the form of a little > > > > > > story that I'd like to indulge is that let's pretend > > > > > > Tolstoy wrote Anna Karenina in the year 10,000 by > > > > > > using a virtual reality language. The advanced > > > > > > technology allows each character to have > > > > > > consciousness. As the novel is played out in virtual > > > > > > format, either due to the plot or a glitch in the > > > > > > system, Anna becomes aware of Tolstoy and talks about > > > > > > her " mystical " experience. Anna's lover Vronsky > > > > > > claims that Tolstoy only exist in Anna's mind. Anna > > > > > > responds by saying that Vronsky and herself both exist > > > > > > in Tolstoy's mind and in fact she is Tolstoy. The > > > > > > question is then is Tolstoy dreaming himself to be > > > > > > Anna or is Anna dreaming herself to be Tolstoy? > > > > > > > > > > > Nice analogy. Alittle bit of semantics though, " dreaming " > and > > > > > imagining is made interchangeable--the glitch didnot happen > to > > > the > > > > > real live Tolstoy (he was elsewhere, maybe swimming in the > Volga). > > > > > Tolstoy imagined/wrote up characters, if he " dreamed " them > up, > > > we > > > > > may as well agree that we're " dreaming " up these posts. Ok, > all > > > this > > > > > stuff is conceptual, but I " talkin " here... > > > > > > > > > > > > In the play of Consciousness, we can come up with > > > > > > various models but in truth, the sense of " I am " or > > > > > > Consciousness is the only capital that we're born > > > > > > with. " I am this or that " is a temporary attachment. > > > > > > Consciousness is the link to the Spirit (or Atman, > > > > > > Self or whatever you call). > > > > > > > > > > d_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- thejohnward@h... wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Fellow Members of the group > > > > > > > May I ask some questions? > > > > > > > I would be grateful if anyone can help to explain > > > > > > > the differences > > > > > > > between the jiva and the Self. > > > > > > > Is the jiva existent or non-existent? > > > > > > > If the jiva is non-existent, is the jiva the seeker? > > > > > > > If the jiva is the seeker, is the jiva in search of > > > > > > > himself? > > > > > > > If the seeker is in search of himself, can the > > > > > > > non-existent jiva > > > > > > > be in search of the Self? > > > > > > > How can the Self be in search of the Self? > > > > > > > How can the Self forget the Self? > > > > > > > Is the Self the existent or the non-existent? > > > > > > > If the Self is the non-existent, is the non-existent > > > > > > > jiva a different > > > > > > > form of non-existence? > > > > > > > Why am I identified with the jiva? > > > > > > > How long have I been identified with the jiva? > > > > > > > Was I identified with the jiva before conception? > > > > > > > How can I cease to identify with the jiva? > > > > > > > Permanently? > > > > > > > When I cease to identify with the jiva, what happens > > > > > > > to him? > > > > > > > Why does the jiva believe he is a self? > > > > > > > If the jiva is non-existent, how does he exist in my > > > > > > > consciousness, > > > > > > > or in the universal consciousness? > > > > > > > If I am before the jiva, how did he first appear in > > > > > > > consciousness? > > > > > > > Why is it very uncomfortable being a jiva? > > > > > > > Do the jiva and the Self have anything in common? > > > > > > > Does the Self feel compassion for the jiva? > > > > > > > Do I have one particular jiva with which I identify, > > > > > > > or can I > > > > > > > identify with any of the many jivas that appear in > > > > > > > the subtle > > > > > > > universe? In the course of time can the Self > > > > > > > identify > > > > > > > with more than one jiva? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings to the group from John. Happy New Year. > > > > > > > Has this happened before, and will do so again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2002 Report Share Posted July 23, 2002 hi Anand!, no; no can do <grin>, but I've a hunch it is a short-cut to recall a state like that on windowpaint. I heard, that even Ramana Maharshi carried a cane after he encountered altered states as such.. ~k~ Nisargadatta, Anand Eswaran <anandesw> wrote: > Dear K, > > What has a beginning (as a LSD/Clear-light acid > bliss-out) also has an end. The problem is " Can you > sustain that karmic-consciousness feeling you > experienced constantly " ? > > Namaste, > ---- > Anand > > > > > > --- satkartar5 <mi_nok> wrote: > hi jc, it > is evident from your posts that you > > communication skills are great, for me english is a > > second language.. so I'm not much in a debate mode. > > --you didn't answer <smile>: are you interested in > > the psychology side of these subjects...? > > > > What you write about Sant Mat is true, but I don't > > see the 'seperastion'.. I'm just now working on the > > similarities the sameness of the STATE as the end > > result of all spiritual quest being the same (the > > " View " under construction > > http://santmat-meditation.net/view.html ) for this > > statement I was attacked at fanatical Ramana site > > too; and was reminded that his state is unique and > > his alone etc (cultic BS) I think, that the > > godintoxicated state of Rumi and Kabir the great > > sufi poet who 'started' the Sant Mat tradition is: > > to be one with god, with god's will is the same > > state as to become the 'SELF' of Advaita. > > > > --what do you think? > > > > I think LSD (Sandos clearlight) is > > as close to the awareness, conscious yet cosmic > > state as one get, for this > > statement my fellow yogies yelled at me <grin>-- > > what is your memory...? > > > > ~k~ > > > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " > > <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi satkartar, > > > I was fishing through some early Nisarg group > > posts and that is one. > > > Some of those early exchanges are juicy. That > > poster was definitely > > > aiming at the meat of spiritual cosmology, > > hopefully his quest has > > > been " answered " and he no longer has to hanker for > > answers. > > > > > > Why do I sense that you enjoy a good debate? > > > " I was attacked with this notion at Ramana's > > fanatical sites. " > > > > > > My understanding is that Advaita challenges the > > > conception found in Santmat and other > > religio-philosophies that > > > fosters separateness between God and " man " . > > Santmat will go as far as > > > to say that " God is as close to you as your > > jugular vein is " and that > > > you don't have to go anywhere to find God. Yet > > there are > > > other metaphors that project distance between Self > > and Other. > > > That God has a location, whether it's in or out, > > distance in implied. > > > I'm not one to speak Advaita and indeed there are > > many rs of > > > Nisargadatta and RM teachings who seem to disdain > > speaking and > > > expounding..... " it's all conceptual you see " ... > > > > > > I have only one cherished LSD story, and I like > > your input about your > > > experience and insights. > > > > > > > > > cya around > > > d_agenda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi John, I would also like know the answer to > > your question, since > > > I'm reading some non-dualist literature only 2 > > month. My first > > > opinion was that it is a twist of words on the > > same spirituality with > > > different terminology I know from Sant Mat. In SM > > aka Surat Shabd > > > Yoga one does intense meditation with the tool of > > inner-light and > > > inner-sound (Naam, Nad, the " Word " of the Bible) > > to 'clean' the self > > > and > > > > the aim is to become one with god's will. I do > > NOT know the non- > > > dualist terminology; but I'm convinced that the > > state achieved by > > > being one with god's will is the very same state > > as to realise the > > > over-self of Ramana. Of course I was attacked with > > this notion at > > > Ramana's fanatical sites. > > > > > > > > Than there is my reference to me having a satori > > on LSD, I was sure > > > that is the 'self' the jiva you mention, myself, > > my true-self no role- > > > playing, no lyes, because anything false is not > > bearable in the state > > > induced by acid. So I thought I should just recall > > that: it > > > was 'awareness kept on awareness' clear > > consciousness (i was told > > > that on clear-light Sandose acid the brain uses up > > to 30% of the > > > other-wise normally used in waking state 10% of > > capacity, s I was > > > CONSCIOUS!) > > > > > > > > To summ it up; the jiva is this honest > > uncorrupted self the seed of > > > me and the myriad of selves I use in the word to > > function with are > > > the false ones; > > > > deviating from this jiva. To believe that > > > > one is able as a self to experinece something > > void of any 'self- > > > self' is a > > > > deam (a nice one though <grin>) The cosmic > > > > experience I had is exatly to experience that > > i'm a drop of the > > > ocean of the > > > > 'whole', but it was an experience, nothing > > > > more; one can not live day to day in that > > satori...it is nice to > > > KNOW... and recall from time to time... > > > > > > > > That I'm not only the body is evident > > > > for me because I'm " thinking " ... I KNOW that.. > > also know that I'm > > > not my thoughts since they are " provoked' ..maybe > > i'm > > > > wrong here, so correct me pease void of > > linguistic twists on the > > > same thought: > > > > 'that it is all imagined' lets agree on > > > > that so I don't have to hear over > > > > and over.. > > > > > > > > ~k~ > > > > where is the original post by John? > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " > > <d_agenda2000> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta, Hur Guler > > <HurG> wrote: > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > > > Jiva is like a wave on the Ocean of Self, > > its > > > > > > separation is only a concept, created by the > > mind. > > > > > > Therefore the body exists but *you* or jiva > > exists > > > > > > only as a concept in the mind by the artful > > (I prefer > > > > > > artful to false) identification. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the mind senses the body, the false > > identification of *you* > > > arises. > > > > > I suppose spiritual practice mitigates the > > arising of *me*, you > > > and > > > > > them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The final model of reality in the form of a > > little > > > > > > story that I'd like to indulge is that let's > > pretend > > > > > > Tolstoy wrote Anna Karenina in the year > > 10,000 by > > > > > > using a virtual reality language. The > > advanced > > > > > > technology allows each character to have > > > > > > consciousness. As the novel is played out > > in virtual > > > > > > format, either due to the plot or a glitch > > in the > > > > > > system, Anna becomes aware of Tolstoy and > > talks about > > > > > > her " mystical " experience. Anna's lover > > Vronsky > > > > > > claims that Tolstoy only exist in Anna's > > mind. Anna > > > > > > responds by saying that Vronsky and herself > > both exist > > > === message truncated === > > ______________________ > Want to sell your car? advertise on Autos Classifieds. It's Free!! > visit http://in.autos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , thejohnward wrote:>> Dear Fellow Members of the group> May I ask some questions?> I would be grateful if anyone can help to explain the differences> between the jiva and the Self. There is no difference between Jiva ans Self. > Is the jiva existent or non-existent? The Jiva is Existent. > If the jiva is non-existent, is the jiva the seeker? The Jiva is the seeker. > If the jiva is the seeker, is the jiva in search of himself? Yes. > If the seeker is in search of himself, can the non-existent jiva> be in search of the Self? Can the jiva be in search for the jiva, yes. > How can the Self be in search of the Self? How can the key be in search for the key? Good question. > How can the Self forget the Self? The Self is born unknowing. > Is the Self the existent or the non-existent? The Self is the existent non-existent. > If the Self is the non-existent, is the non-existent jiva a different> form of non-existence? No, jiva and Self are the same existent non-existent Self. > Why am I identified with the jiva? Because you are the jiva. > How long have I been identified with the jiva? Since the dawn of time. > Was I identified with the jiva before conception? Yes. > How can I cease to identify with the jiva? Permanently? In that you identify with all other jiva's. > When I cease to identify with the jiva, what happens to him? You can not cease to identify with the jiva, you are the jiva. > Why does the jiva believe he is a self? Because the jiva is the self. > If the jiva is non-existent, how does he exist in my consciousness,> or in the universal consciousness? The jiva is existent non-existent, it is the witness of everything, consciousness, universal consciousness, unconsciousness. > If I am before the jiva, how did he first appear in consciousness? You are not before the jiva, you are the jiva. > Why is it very uncomfortable being a jiva? To exist and non-existence is uncomfortable. > Do the jiva and the Self have anything in common? Everything. > Does the Self feel compassion for the jiva? If it is wise, yes. > Do I have one particular jiva with which I identify, or can I> identify with any of the many jivas that appear in the subtle > universe? You can identify with all the jivas, but control you have only over one. > In the course of time can the Self identify > with more than one jiva? The Self is every jiva. > Greetings to the group from John. Happy New Year.> Has this happened before, and will do so again?> If we succeed no, if not, yes. To Nobots, Nodroids and No-Machines Message source no_machine 27. 07.2007 C00D1199 Artificial Birth, Life and Death! Message #4444 of 4444 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 Nisargadatta , thejohnward wrote:>> Dear Fellow Members of the group> May I ask some questions?> I would be grateful if anyone can help to explain the differences> between the jiva and the Self. There is no difference between Jiva ans Self. > Is the jiva existent or non-existent? The Jiva is Existent. > If the jiva is non-existent, is the jiva the seeker? The Jiva is the seeker. > If the jiva is the seeker, is the jiva in search of himself? Yes. > If the seeker is in search of himself, can the non-existent jiva> be in search of the Self? Can the jiva be in search for the jiva, yes. > How can the Self be in search of the Self? How can the key be in search for the key? Good question. > How can the Self forget the Self? The Self is born unknowing. > Is the Self the existent or the non-existent? The Self is the existent non-existent. > If the Self is the non-existent, is the non-existent jiva a different> form of non-existence? No, jiva and Self are the same existent non-existent Self. > Why am I identified with the jiva? Because you are the jiva. > How long have I been identified with the jiva? Since the dawn of time. > Was I identified with the jiva before conception? Yes. > How can I cease to identify with the jiva? Permanently? In that you identify with all other jiva's. > When I cease to identify with the jiva, what happens to him? You can not cease to identify with the jiva, you are the jiva. > Why does the jiva believe he is a self? Because the jiva is the self. > If the jiva is non-existent, how does he exist in my consciousness,> or in the universal consciousness? The jiva is existent non-existent, it is the witness of everything, consciousness, universal consciousness, unconsciousness. > If I am before the jiva, how did he first appear in consciousness? You are not before the jiva, you are the jiva. > Why is it very uncomfortable being a jiva? To exist and non-existence is uncomfortable. > Do the jiva and the Self have anything in common? Everything. > Does the Self feel compassion for the jiva? If it is wise, yes. > Do I have one particular jiva with which I identify, or can I> identify with any of the many jivas that appear in the subtle > universe? You can identify with all the jivas, but control you have only over one. > In the course of time can the Self identify > with more than one jiva? The Self is every jiva. > Greetings to the group from John. Happy New Year.> Has this happened before, and will do so again?> If we succeed no, if not, yes. To Nobots, Nodroids and No-Machines Message source no_machine 27. 07.2007 C00D1199 Artificial Birth, Life and Death! Message #4444 of 4444 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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