Reply to statements made by members of the group 4

[Guest guest]

Reply to Mark Hovila 16 January 2001

 

" Some followers of Advaita are fond of saying that

all effort is useless. Nisargadatta: When I met my Guru,

he told me: " You are not what you take yourself to be.

Find out what you are. Watch the sense 'I Am', find

your real self " .

 

Possibly the idea that all effort is useless is a

reminding factor that all action is merely the action

and interaction of the Gunas. The Self not only never acts,

but the idea of action is distasteful to the Self?

The Self merely watches the entrance and interaction

of the Gunas as if positioned high in an arena, and

looking down upon the scene. The gunas and the Self do not

occupy the same world, and thus action is impossible

for the Self even if it wished to act.

 

Nevertheless due to identification I personally find

my limited nature continually believes that it wants

to act and can perform actions. I am identified with

the jiva. The jiva being the link between the spiritual

world and the material world is that level of the

complex of selves which gets involved with action,

with the manifestation of deep almost forgotten desires,

due to its failure to observe that all action is

merely the interaction of the gunas.

 

Nisargadatta's Guru

may appear to exhort him to action, to spiritual

practices etc, but if one observes closely he only asks

Nisargadatta to find his real self. The technique is

to remember to watch the " I Am " . The Self is not the " I Am " ,

therefore that which watches the level " I Am " is nearer

to the real Self, is the next level towards the Self,

which is the Witness. The Witness performs no action,

it merely observes the presentation of the worlds: material,

natural, spiritual, and divine. All forms in such

worlds are mechanisms and are essentially unreal.

Whether or not the Self will reveal himself to the

Witness is not within the powers of the Witness.

He must wait for realization. To find the real self

is not an action, since awareness is already occurring

spontaneously, and is not within anyone's powers

to perform or not perform?

 

The students of Ramesh who preferred to sleep, probably fell

under the influence of Tamas, tendencies to inertia,

due to identification with the suggestions originating

from that guna. They said they had heard it all before,

which suggests that everything is repeating for them,

and by sleeping rather than awaking it all

may repeat again, and again. They cannot purposely

fall asleep, because the Self performs no intentional

action. They merely fell under the influence of Tamas,

which is to keep jivas asleep and identified. Tamas

swaddles and hoods the head, preventing Self-remembering.

 

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[Guest guest]

Hiya John,

 

-

john ward <thejohnward

<Nisargadatta >

Thursday, January 18, 2001 07:14 AM

Reply to statements made by members of the group 4

 

 

> Reply to Mark Hovila 16 January 2001

>

> " Some followers of Advaita are fond of saying that

> all effort is useless.

 

Such followers are exactly that, followers in whom no understanding has

occurred as yet.

 

The efffort is not useless or useful.

 

It just Impersonal functioning.

 

It is the sense of personal doership that a " me-entity " attaches to the

effort " occuring " in the moment that is the cause of it's Personal Hell or

Personal Heaven, depending on whether the consequences of that " occuring

effort " is in line with the expectation of the " me entity " or not.

 

Thus it can be seen, that the issue of " uselessness " or " usefulness " of an

effort can only be relevant to a " me-entity " .

 

 

Nisargadatta: When I met my Guru,

> he told me: " You are not what you take yourself to be.

> Find out what you are. Watch the sense 'I Am', find

> your real self " .

>

> Possibly the idea that all effort is useless is a

> reminding factor that all action is merely the action

> and interaction of the Gunas.

 

 

Gunas are just the manifested expression of the Self, the Source, the

Noumenon, Consciousness, whatever term you wish to use.

They are as " programmings " of the billions of body-mind complexes, such that

to an input, the exact response " occurs " as per the " guna " of the body mind

complex in question.

 

It is not Two.

Never was.

 

> The Self not only never acts,

> but the idea of action is distasteful to the Self?

 

Distasteful???

 

The " actioner " , the actioning and the " actioned " are all the same Self.

 

It is thus, that it is seen that no action takes place, has ever taken

place, and will ever take place.

 

The recent experiments at Princeton University, on the breaching of the

speed of Light, thereby throwing out all concepts of " becoming " , all

" change " , is also pointing Science to this space which the mystics have been

hinting at, for eons.

 

 

> The Self merely watches the entrance and interaction

> of the Gunas as if positioned high in an arena, and

> looking down upon the scene.

 

 

So you are proposing a duality, is it?

 

 

> The gunas and the Self do not

> occupy the same world, and thus action is impossible

> for the Self even if it wished to act.

 

 

In the Noumenion state (which is a conceptual term being used to denote),

the issue of " wish to act or not to act " is not relevant, for it is

awareness not aware of it's awareness (again a conceptual description)

 

 

> Nevertheless due to identification I personally find

> my limited nature continually believes that it wants

> to act and can perform actions. I am identified with

> the jiva.

 

 

As a me-entity, you are the " jiva " , not identified with the concept of

" jiva " .

 

With the nonvolitonal erasure of the " me-entity " , who is left to describe

what-IS?

To whom would the need arise to describe or affirm or state anything?

 

 

> The jiva being the link between the spiritual

> world and the material world is that level of the

> complex of selves which gets involved with action,

> with the manifestation of deep almost forgotten desires,

> due to its failure to observe that all action is

> merely the interaction of the gunas.

 

 

And this " forgetting " is perfectly appropriate, part of the script, needed

for Life to appear to be what it is.

 

 

 

> Nisargadatta's Guru

> may appear to exhort him to action, to spiritual

> practices etc, but if one observes closely he only asks

> Nisargadatta to find his real self. The technique is

> to remember to watch the " I Am " . The Self is not the " I Am " ,

 

 

That is correct.

A sense of " I AM " arises in that " awareness not aware of itself " and the

whole hoopla starts.

 

Consciousness in repose becomes Consciousness in Movement and it is this

Conscious in Movement which witnesses all it's own movements, " doings " in

phenomenality.

 

 

 

> therefore that which watches the level " I Am " is nearer

> to the real Self, is the next level towards the Self,

> which is the Witness. The Witness performs no action,

> it merely observes the presentation of the worlds: material,

> natural, spiritual, and divine. All forms in such

> worlds are mechanisms and are essentially unreal.

 

 

Once again, spot on.

Psycho-somatic apparatuses, biological computers, conceptual entities,

dreamed characters, with inbuilt programming that enables a response to

" occur " as per the programming, to an input which is a non-volitional

thought.

 

 

> Whether or not the Self will reveal himself to the

> Witness is not within the powers of the Witness.

> He must wait for realization. To find the real self

> is not an action, since awareness is already occurring

> spontaneously, and is not within anyone's powers

> to perform or not perform?

 

Indeed.

Non-volitional, acausal.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Sandeep