Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 David Try this brave investigation: Observe how you identify yourself. Then drop all identifying just for a moment. What is left? Xan ```````` Xan...What is there to Identify with Other than the Mind and the Body...Anyway...? ---------- > It's Not Possible to Be Conscious and Love Everything Equally...! > > > ~ Not as long as you identify with the mind and body, anyway. > > Xan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 So what are You Saying Sandeep...it's All Illusion...? Nisargadatta, " Sandeep Chatterjee " <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > Hi David, > > - > <dswgos@h...> > <Nisargadatta> > Saturday, January 27, 2001 09:13 AM > Re: Impossibility > > > > Michael...I Hear You Saying... " Consciousness is All there is...! " > > > > Are You Saying a Rock is Conscious...? > > > There is a difference in the connotation of the term " Consciousness and > " Conscious " . > Conscious is always conscious of something. > The whole process of the cognizer, the cognition, the cognized. > > Whereas the term " Consciousness " is just a term used for " that " which is > cognizing through the conceptual body-mind complex. > > In some forms of it's expressions, we say the quality of Consciousness has > an added aspect of sentience, and thus such forms are sentient beings. > Viz humans ,animals and plants. > > Further in the human being there is a further added quality of the intellect > or the sense of discrimination, of separation. > > You asked about a rock. > Yes a rock does not have the quality of sentience or intellect, but make no > mistake, a rock at it's fundamental levels is of the same Consciousness > which is of a man or a yellow bellied dog. > > Consciousness in movement, or as Science concludes energy patterns > criss-crossing throwing up forms is what is termed phenomenality. > > Just different forms of the same energy, moving in specific patterns, with > or without the quality of sentience and an intellect for discrimination. > > A apt example is to take a blank piece of paper and draw two criss- crossing > lines.At the point of the crossing of the two lines, there appears a point. > There is none there, but an appearance of it. > > Energy crisscrossing itself, obviously in a far more complex manner, throws > up the appearance of a rock, a flower, a pig , an Einstein or a Hitler. > > > In essence, there is no difference between the appearances. > > > Cheers > > Sandeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 Xan...the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I Observe a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! ---------- Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > David > > Try this brave investigation: > Observe how you identify yourself. > Then drop all identifying just for a moment. > What is left? > > Xan > > ```````` > Xan...What is there to Identify with Other than the Mind and the > Body...Anyway...? > ---------- > > > It's Not Possible to Be Conscious and Love Everything Equally...! > > > > > > ~ Not as long as you identify with the mind and body, anyway. > > > > Xan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 By the Way...Xan...It's Not Possible to Drop All Identifying Just for a Moment...if You Did that the Conscious Mind would Collapse because It would Have Nothing to Compare to...! ---------- Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > David > > Try this brave investigation: > Observe how you identify yourself. > Then drop all identifying just for a moment. > What is left? > > Xan > > ```````` > Xan...What is there to Identify with Other than the Mind and the > Body...Anyway...? > ---------- > > > It's Not Possible to Be Conscious and Love Everything Equally...! > > > > > > ~ Not as long as you identify with the mind and body, anyway. > > > > Xan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 > dw: the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I Observe > a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! may it be accurately said... one sounds deepest depths conceiving myriad selves merging with each as a bubble of perception all arising within consciousness as fractally expanding mind one is nothing awareness all that is and their identity awareness proliferates all that is endlessly faceted mind/body reflects awareness as perception sensing feeling recollecting reasoning expecting dreaming memory influenced predilective mind is seduced to identify with occasional aspects of an otherwise undivided whole and as recently suggested mentation of every flavor is self perpetuating -tomas ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Xan...the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I Observe > a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! > ---------- > > Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > > > David > > > > Try this brave investigation: > > Observe how you identify yourself. > > Then drop all identifying just for a moment. > > What is left? > > > > Xan > > > > ```````` > > Xan...What is there to Identify with Other than the Mind and the > > Body...Anyway...? > > ---------- > > > > > It's Not Possible to Be Conscious and Love Everything Equally...! > > > > > > > > > ~ Not as long as you identify with the mind and body, anyway. > > > > > > Xan > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 David, > Xan...the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I Observe > a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! You say " I Scan. . . " and " I Observe. . . " Who is this 'I'? Doesn't it make sense that this 'I', whoever or whatever it is, is the " Real You, " as distinguished from the mind, feelings or body, which are scanned or observed by the 'I'? Which is higher, the seer, or the seen? Which seems more like the Real You: The computer screen you are looking at,or that which is looking at the computer screen? Which seems more like the Real You: The mind, body and feelings sitting there called David, or that which is looking at the mind, body and feelings called David? Of course, real/unreal and higher/lower are misleading. The bodymind is also You. It's just that it's not ALL OF YOU. The bodymind is an appearance within You. Kelvin (formerly Mark) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 -tomas...You Sound Like You're Tripping...what are You Tripping On...? Nisargadatta, " thomas murphy " <tma@c...> wrote: > > > dw: the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I Observe > > a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! > > > may it be accurately said... > > one sounds deepest depths > conceiving myriad selves > merging with each > as a bubble of perception > all arising within consciousness > as fractally expanding mind > > one is > nothing > awareness > all that is > and their identity > > awareness > proliferates > all that is > > endlessly faceted mind/body > reflects awareness > as perception > sensing > feeling > recollecting > reasoning > expecting > dreaming > > memory influenced > predilective mind > is seduced to identify > with occasional aspects > of an otherwise undivided whole > > and as recently suggested > mentation of every flavor > is self perpetuating > > > -tomas > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Xan...the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I Observe > > a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! > > ---------- > > > > Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > > > > > David > > > > > > Try this brave investigation: > > > Observe how you identify yourself. > > > Then drop all identifying just for a moment. > > > What is left? > > > > > > Xan > > > > > > ```````` > > > Xan...What is there to Identify with Other than the Mind and the > > > Body...Anyway...? > > > ---------- > > > > > > > It's Not Possible to Be Conscious and Love Everything Equally...! > > > > > > > > > > > > ~ Not as long as you identify with the mind and body, anyway. > > > > > > > > Xan > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 (formerly Mark)...why do You Ask Me All these Questions that Have No Satisfactory Answer...?...Are You Incapable of Just Saying... " I don't know...! " ...and be Done with It...? You See...I told You how I Identify that I have a Self in a Mechanical Sense...has Anyone Else on this e-group or anywhere Else on the Net told You that...You Know the Answer and the Answer is No because they don't Know It to Begin with...! So what would You Rather Do...Play Psuedo-Intellectual Games by Asking the Question... " Who Am I...? " ...Naturally...there is No Satisfactory Answer to this Question and at the Same Time there are Those that are Intellectually Inclined and Filled with Ego so they Can't Simply Say... " I don't know...! " ...Instead they come to Some False Conclusion that they Know the Answer to the Question... " Who Am I...? " ...then They Go Out and Convince Other Intellectually Inferior People that Their False Conclusion is true...! Nisargadatta, " M.K. Hovila " <hovila@f...> wrote: > David, > > > Xan...the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I Observe > > a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! > > You say " I Scan. . . " and " I Observe. . . " Who is this 'I'? Doesn't it > make sense that this 'I', whoever or whatever it is, is the " Real You, " as > distinguished from the mind, feelings or body, which are scanned or observed > by the 'I'? Which is higher, the seer, or the seen? Which seems more like > the Real You: The computer screen you are looking at,or that which is > looking at the computer screen? Which seems more like the Real You: The > mind, body and feelings sitting there called David, or that which is looking > at the mind, body and feelings called David? > > Of course, real/unreal and higher/lower are misleading. The bodymind is > also You. It's just that it's not ALL OF YOU. The bodymind is an > appearance within You. > > Kelvin > (formerly Mark) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 (formerly Mark)...It Seems to Me You Haven't Looked Into What You are Saying far enough...You Can't Have Consciousness or Awareness without Something to Compare to or Identify with...! Listen to what You are Saying...You Agree with Me and Say the Conscious Mind could Collapse but not Consciousness or Awareness...! If this is True...then How can You have Consciousness without a Conscious Mind...? And then You Say... " When You abide as That, you have stopped identifying for a moment...! " When You Say... " When You abide as That,... " ...your Language here Presupposes You can Be Something Other than What You are...In Other Words You're Caught Up in Your Imagination and You're Believing what You are Telling Your Self about It is True...!...No...(formerly Mark)...You can NEVER Be what You Imagine You can Be...You can Be Only what You Are...! and then You Say... " ...you have stopped identifying for a moment...! " ...No...(formerly Mark)...It's not Possible to Stop Identifying for Moment in Your Life or Your Consciousness would Collapse and You would have Annihilated Whatever It Is You Think You are and You Would have No Consciousness of that or Anything Else Whatsoever...! ---------- Nisargadatta, " M.K. Hovila " <hovila@f...> wrote: > David, > > > By the Way...Xan...It's Not Possible to Drop All Identifying Just for > > a Moment...if You Did that the Conscious Mind would Collapse because > > It would Have Nothing to Compare to...! > > Can you see your own bodymind? Can you notice that you are having a > feeling, a sensation, a reaction? Who is it that is noticing this? That is > who you are. When you abide as That, you have stopped identifying for a > moment. Yes, you could say that the Conscious Mind would Collapse. But not > Consciousness. Not Awareness. > > Kelvin > (formerly Mark) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 > -tomas...You Sound Like You're Tripping...what are You Tripping On...? Life. > > > dw: the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I > Observe > > > a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! > > > > > > may it be accurately said... > > > > one sounds deepest depths > > conceiving myriad selves > > merging with each > > as a bubble of perception > > all arising within consciousness > > as fractally expanding mind > > > > one is > > nothing > > awareness > > all that is > > and their identity > > > > awareness > > proliferates > > all that is > > > > endlessly faceted mind/body > > reflects awareness > > as perception > > sensing > > feeling > > recollecting > > reasoning > > expecting > > dreaming > > > > memory influenced > > predilective mind > > is seduced to identify > > with occasional aspects > > of an otherwise undivided whole > > > > and as recently suggested > > mentation of every flavor > > is self perpetuating > > > > > > -tomas > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > Xan...the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I > Observe > > > a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! > > > ---------- > > > > > > Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > Try this brave investigation: > > > > Observe how you identify yourself. > > > > Then drop all identifying just for a moment. > > > > What is left? > > > > > > > > Xan > > > > > > > > ```````` > > > > Xan...What is there to Identify with Other than the Mind and the > > > > Body...Anyway...? > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > It's Not Possible to Be Conscious and Love Everything > Equally...! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~ Not as long as you identify with the mind and body, anyway. > > > > > > > > > > Xan > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 Nisargadatta, dswgos@h... wrote: > Michael...I Hear You Saying... " Consciousness is All there is...! " > > Are You Saying a Rock is Conscious...? > ---------- Oh yes! IT is good to be Rock! Changed by time and tide Rock becomes Sand! Lifted up by roots Sand becomes Earth! Transmogrified by growth Earth becomes Fruit! Ingested by life Fruit becomes Creature! Changed by time and tide Creature becomes Earth! Then Sand and back again to Rock! Oh yeah! It is good to be Rock! <what a delightfully silly and joyous question!> HAHAHAH and HOHOHO! Peace - Rock On! - Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 David, > (formerly Mark)...It Seems to Me You Haven't Looked Into What You are > Saying far enough...You Can't Have Consciousness or Awareness without > Something to Compare to or Identify with...! I think what you are saying is that you must fix yourself someplace in space and time, Correct? In other words, you must have a body, mind, ego, whatever, about which you say : " This is me, and this is all I am. " I am saying that this is not so. I am saying that this " me " can function very well (better, even) if the " me " is seen to be operating within Awareness, the " background. " The " me, " the foreground, need not be the focal point. > Listen to what You are Saying...You Agree with Me and Say the > Conscious Mind could Collapse but not Consciousness or Awareness...! Pardon me. I was using " Conscious Mind " in a different sense than you were. Call it ego, false self, sense of separation, contracted " me. " In Awareness this thing dissolves. For me, it keeps coming back, but when Awareness returns, it dissolves again (for a second or two, if I'm lucky). > And then You Say... " When You abide as That, you have stopped > identifying for a moment...! " > > When You Say... " When You abide as That,... " ...your Language here > Presupposes You can Be Something Other than What You are...In Other > Words You're Caught Up in Your Imagination and You're Believing what > You are Telling Your Self about It is True...!...No...(formerly > Mark)...You can NEVER Be what You Imagine You can Be...You can Be > Only what You Are...! Please tell me what I Am. This is a serious question. I really would like to know what you think I Am. > and then You Say... " ...you have stopped identifying for a > moment...! " ...No...(formerly Mark)...It's not Possible to Stop > Identifying for Moment in Your Life or Your Consciousness would > Collapse and You would have Annihilated Whatever It Is You Think You > are and You Would have No Consciousness of that or Anything Else > Whatsoever...! Maybe we are not talking about the same thing when we say " identify. " What do you mean by that word? Here is what I mean. You are looking at a tree. While you are looking at the tree you begin thinking about the type of tree it is, how old it is, how fun it would be to climb the tree. You are identified with your thoughts. You think you ARE your thoughts. Then, suddenly, the thoughts come to a stop. It is as if a light switches on. There is a realization that a bodymind has been sitting there daydreaming, and that you are not this bodymind, you are that which is witnessing this bodymind. Identification dissolves in this awareness. This awareness is not another thought. What I am saying is that you are this awareness, that you have always been this awareness, and that the notion " I am a thinker thinking about this tree " dissolves in this awareness. What has been annihilated? Your brain still works, your senses still work. But now, for this moment, you are not identified with this thinker. Kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 David, > (formerly Mark)...why do You Ask Me All these Questions that Have No > Satisfactory Answer...?...Are You Incapable of Just Saying... " I don't > know...! " ...and be Done with It...? If you're looking for an answer in words, that would indeed be unsatisfactory. My questions were an attempt to point at something beyond words and thought. I don't know how else to do it other than to try encourage you to look at that which is looking. > You See...I told You how I Identify that I have a Self in a > Mechanical Sense...has Anyone Else on this e-group or anywhere Else > on the Net told You that...You Know the Answer and the Answer is No > because they don't Know It to Begin with...! I missed the post about your Self in a Mechanical Sense. Sorry, I don't grok what you are asking me here. > So what would You Rather Do...Play Psuedo-Intellectual Games by > Asking the Question... " Who Am I...? " ...Naturally...there is No > Satisfactory Answer to this Question and at the Same Time there are > Those that are Intellectually Inclined and Filled with Ego so they > Can't Simply Say... " I don't know...! " ...Instead they come to Some > False Conclusion that they Know the Answer to the Question... " Who Am > I...? " ...then They Go Out and Convince Other Intellectually Inferior > People that Their False Conclusion is true...! You say there is no satisfactory answer to this question. What would a satisfactory answer be? Are you looking for something you can write down in a book so that you can refer to later, so that you know you will always " have " the answer? Here's what I think is happening here. There is enormous resistance in you to dealing with that question, which is obvious when you say " There is no satisfactory answer " and then attack me for asking it. The question to ask yourself when that dodge comes up is: " Who is it that thinks there is no satisfactory answer? " If the answer to that question is " I don't know, " that's OK. But really LIVE in that not-knowing, don't just file it away and go on with your life in the usual way. Keep inquiring, keep asking who is it that doesn't know. These questions don't have to be in words. But if you're not asking this question at some level, you're dead, man. You're just a robot chattering away till the batteries fizzle out. Kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 -tomas...I Must Applaud Your Answer...! Nisargadatta, " thomas murphy " <tma@c...> wrote: > > -tomas...You Sound Like You're Tripping...what are You Tripping On...? > > Life. > > > > > > > dw: the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I > > Observe > > > > a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! > > > > > > > > > may it be accurately said... > > > > > > one sounds deepest depths > > > conceiving myriad selves > > > merging with each > > > as a bubble of perception > > > all arising within consciousness > > > as fractally expanding mind > > > > > > one is > > > nothing > > > awareness > > > all that is > > > and their identity > > > > > > awareness > > > proliferates > > > all that is > > > > > > endlessly faceted mind/body > > > reflects awareness > > > as perception > > > sensing > > > feeling > > > recollecting > > > reasoning > > > expecting > > > dreaming > > > > > > memory influenced > > > predilective mind > > > is seduced to identify > > > with occasional aspects > > > of an otherwise undivided whole > > > > > > and as recently suggested > > > mentation of every flavor > > > is self perpetuating > > > > > > > > > -tomas > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > Xan...the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I > > Observe > > > > a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > Try this brave investigation: > > > > > Observe how you identify yourself. > > > > > Then drop all identifying just for a moment. > > > > > What is left? > > > > > > > > > > Xan > > > > > > > > > > ```````` > > > > > Xan...What is there to Identify with Other than the Mind and the > > > > > Body...Anyway...? > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > It's Not Possible to Be Conscious and Love Everything > > Equally...! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~ Not as long as you identify with the mind and body, anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > Xan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 Michael...are You Into ROCK Music...?...If So...How Many Rocks Do You Know Personally that Make Music...? Nisargadatta, maread@i... wrote: > Nisargadatta, dswgos@h... wrote: > > Michael...I Hear You Saying... " Consciousness is All there is...! " > > > > Are You Saying a Rock is Conscious...? > > ---------- > Oh yes! IT is good to be Rock! > Changed by time and tide Rock becomes Sand! > Lifted up by roots Sand becomes Earth! > Transmogrified by growth Earth becomes Fruit! > Ingested by life Fruit becomes Creature! > Changed by time and tide Creature becomes Earth! > Then Sand and back again to Rock! > Oh yeah! It is good to be Rock! > > <what a delightfully silly and joyous question!> > HAHAHAH and HOHOHO! > > Peace - Rock On! - Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 Nisargadatta, " M.K. Hovila " <hovila@f...> wrote: > David, > > > (formerly Mark)...why do You Ask Me All these Questions that Have No > > Satisfactory Answer...?...Are You Incapable of Just Saying... " I don't > > know...! " ...and be Done with It...? > > If you're looking for an answer in words, that would indeed be > unsatisfactory. My questions were an attempt to point at something beyond > words and thought. I don't know how else to do it other than to try > encourage you to look at that which is looking. Kelvin...when I Am Conscious...there is Always a Voice...One Voice...that is Constantly Having a Conversation which I Observe...I'm Detached from It in the Sense that I can Choose Consciously what I want to Go Along with that It has in Mind...!...The Thing that I cannot Choose to Happen is to Be Conscious of which Thoughts come Into my Awareness...!...I can Only Be Aware of the Thoughts that Come to Me...they Seem to Be Spontaneous but I Don't Believe that...I Believe they are the Result of a Process I Am Unconscious of...!...Now is this True...?...I don't Know even though I Choose to Go Along with these Thoughts and Believe this...! > > You See...I told You how I Identify that I have a Self in a > > Mechanical Sense...has Anyone Else on this e-group or anywhere Else > > on the Net told You that...You Know the Answer and the Answer is No > > because they don't Know It to Begin with...! > I missed the post about your Self in a Mechanical Sense. Sorry, I don't > grok what you are asking me here. You are Starting to Sound Like a Stranger in a Strange Land...Kelvin...! > > So what would You Rather Do...Play Psuedo-Intellectual Games by > > Asking the Question... " Who Am I...? " ...Naturally...there is No > > Satisfactory Answer to this Question and at the Same Time there are > > Those that are Intellectually Inclined and Filled with Ego so they > > Can't Simply Say... " I don't know...! " ...Instead they come to Some > > False Conclusion that they Know the Answer to the Question... " Who Am > > I...? " ...then They Go Out and Convince Other Intellectually Inferior > > People that Their False Conclusion is true...! > You say there is no satisfactory answer to this question. What would a > satisfactory answer be? Are you looking for something you can write down in > a book so that you can refer to later, so that you know you will always > " have " the answer? Here's what I think is happening here. There is > enormous resistance in you to dealing with that question, which is obvious > when you say " There is no satisfactory answer " and then attack me for asking > it. The question to ask yourself when that dodge comes up is: " Who is it > that thinks there is no satisfactory answer? " If the answer to that > question is " I don't know, " that's OK. But really LIVE in that not- knowing, > don't just file it away and go on with your life in the usual way. Keep > inquiring, keep asking who is it that doesn't know. These questions don't > have to be in words. But if you're not asking this question at some level, > you're dead, man. You're just a robot chattering away till the batteries > fizzle out. Kelvin...the Question... " Who Am I...? " ...is Like a Zen Koan to Me...after Some Point One Comes to a Space where there is No Need to Ask the Question any Longer because there is No Satifactory Answer Other than... " I don't Know " ...and with that Assertion...I have the Ability to Let Dead Dogs Lie...! > Kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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