Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 Nisargadatta, " M.K. Hovila " <hovila@f...> wrote: > David, > > > (formerly Mark)...It Seems to Me You Haven't Looked Into What You are > > Saying far enough...You Can't Have Consciousness or Awareness without > > Something to Compare to or Identify with...! > > I think what you are saying is that you must fix yourself someplace in space > and time, Correct? No...You can't Fix Your Self Someplace in Space and Time...this Type of Thinking is Just a Product of Your Imagination...!...Space and Time are Concepts...We don't Exist in Concepts...they Exist in Whatever It Is We are...! In other words, you must have a body, mind, ego, > whatever, about which you say : " This is me, and this is all I am. " I am > saying that this is not so. You're Right Kelvin...I'm Saying this is Not So Also...the Best I Could Say in this Matter would Be... " This Appears to be Me and This Appears to be All I Am...! " I am saying that this " me " can function very > well (better, even) if the " me " is seen to be operating within Awareness, > the " background. " The " me, " the foreground, need not be the focal point. But the " Me " cannot Be the Background because You cannot Observe the Background Consciously...when You are Seeing the " Me " as Operating within Awareness Kelvin...where are You Seeing this...You're Seeing this in the Foreground...! > > Listen to what You are Saying...You Agree with Me and Say the > > Conscious Mind could Collapse but not Consciousness or Awareness...! > Pardon me. I was using " Conscious Mind " in a different sense than you were. > Call it ego, false self, sense of separation, contracted " me. " In Awareness > this thing dissolves. For me, it keeps coming back, but when Awareness > returns, it dissolves again (for a second or two, if I'm lucky). Kelvin...I believe this is Where We Disagree...if You Say there is a False Self then that Presupposes there is a Real or True Self...both the False and the True Self are the Same thing...they are a Product of Your Imagination...! > > And then You Say... " When You abide as That, you have stopped > > identifying for a moment...! " > > > > When You Say... " When You abide as That,... " ...your Language here > > Presupposes You can Be Something Other than What You are...In Other > > Words You're Caught Up in Your Imagination and You're Believing what > > You are Telling Your Self about It is True...!...No...(formerly > > Mark)...You can NEVER Be what You Imagine You can Be...You can Be > > Only what You Are...! > Please tell me what I Am. This is a serious question. I really would like > to know what you think I Am. I don't Know what You are...Kelvin...there is No Satisfactory Answer that I could Believe in that would Answer Your Question...! > > and then You Say... " ...you have stopped identifying for a > > moment...! " ...No...(formerly Mark)...It's not Possible to Stop > > Identifying for Moment in Your Life or Your Consciousness would > > Collapse and You would have Annihilated Whatever It Is You Think You > > are and You Would have No Consciousness of that or Anything Else > > Whatsoever...! > Maybe we are not talking about the same thing when we say " identify. " What > do you mean by that word? Here is what I mean. You are looking at a tree. > While you are looking at the tree you begin thinking about the type of tree > it is, how old it is, how fun it would be to climb the tree. You are > identified with your thoughts. You think you ARE your thoughts. Kelvin...I believe You're Right...What I Mean by the Word " Identify " is that I have found a Word to Identify the Object I'm Aware of...! Then, > suddenly, the thoughts come to a stop. It is as if a light switches on. > There is a realization that a bodymind has been sitting there daydreaming, Kelvin...You say " the Thoughts come to a Stop and then there is a Realization that a Bodymind has Been Sitting there Daydreaming...! " No...the Thoughts have Not Come to a Stop because this Realization You are Having is Thought...! > and that you are not this bodymind, you are that which is witnessing this > bodymind. Here...You are Still Caught Up in Thought and Identifying with it when You Say... " ...you are that which is witnessing this bodymind. " ...when You Believe this You have to Identify with It for It to Be True...I was Also Caught Up in this Matter of Believing that I was that which is Witnessing this Bodymind but from Time to Time I would See this Belief would Come and Go Just Like Everything Else so I Came to the Conclusion that this Was Just Another Case of Being Identified with Thoughts I Now Choose not to Believe...! Identification dissolves in this awareness. This awareness is > not another thought. What I am saying is that you are this awareness, that > you have always been this awareness, and that the notion " I am a thinker > thinking about this tree " dissolves in this awareness. What has been > annihilated? Your brain still works, your senses still work. But now, for > this moment, you are not identified with this thinker. I Believe You're Still in Denial...Kelvin...I don't Believe It's Possible to not Be Identified with this Thinker You speak of from the Mere Fact that You have Written and Transmitted this Idea to Me...! > Kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 David... What is it that is scanning and observing? >Xan...the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I Observe >a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! >---------- > >Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > > > David > > > > Try this brave investigation: > > Observe how you identify yourself. > > Then drop all identifying just for a moment. > > What is left? > > > > Xan > > > > ```````` > > Xan...What is there to Identify with Other than the Mind and the > > Body...Anyway...? > > ---------- > > > > > It's Not Possible to Be Conscious and Love Everything Equally...! > > > > > > > > > ~ Not as long as you identify with the mind and body, anyway. > > > > > > Xan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 David, > But the " Me " cannot Be the Background because You cannot Observe the > Background Consciously...when You are Seeing the " Me " as Operating > within Awareness Kelvin...where are You Seeing this...You're Seeing > this in the Foreground...! I agree, we can't observe the background because we ARE the background, which contains everything. The eye cannot see itself. The Me is in the foreground, an appearance within the background. > Kelvin...I believe this is Where We Disagree...if You Say there is a > False Self then that Presupposes there is a Real or True Self...both > the False and the True Self are the Same thing...they are a Product > of Your Imagination...! Let's not use the term " True Self. " Let's use the term " What Is. " No notion of a self is implied in this term. The False Self is only false in the sense that we define ourselves as only an individual body, mind, and perhaps spirit, whatever that is. But what is it that is aware of this individual bodymindspirit? This is the great mystery. There is no need to try to solve the mystery. We can't, can we? All we can do is face What Is. I am sensing that your form of inquiry is " I don't know. " Facing What Is with " I don't know " is deep inquiry, as far as I am concerned. Kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Xan...I Beat My Head on the Brick Wall and Pain Appears...Who's Fault is this that I Have Chosen to Go along with Beating My Head on the Wall...? Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > ~ David, This sounds like a theory of what would happen if... > You'll never know 'til you try it. :-) > > Xan > > >By the Way...Xan...It's Not Possible to Drop All Identifying Just for > >a Moment...if You Did that the Conscious Mind would Collapse because > >It would Have Nothing to Compare to...! > >---------- > > > >Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > > > > > David > > > > > > Try this brave investigation: > > > Observe how you identify yourself. > > > Then drop all identifying just for a moment. > > > What is left? > > > > > > Xan > > > > > > ```````` > > > Xan...What is there to Identify with Other than the Mind and the > > > Body...Anyway...? > > > ---------- > > > > > > > It's Not Possible to Be Conscious and Love Everything Equally...! > > > > > > > > > > > > ~ Not as long as you identify with the mind and body, anyway. > > > > > > > > Xan > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Xan...You ask... " What is it that is scanning and observing? " ...It Appears to Be the Brain that Life is Imagining...! And what is Life...?...There is No Satisfactory Answer to this Question so the Thought that Comes to Me would be... " I don't Know...! " Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > David... What is it that is scanning and observing? > > > >Xan...the Way I Identify with My Self is I Scan My Body and I Observe > >a Feeling and My Mind Tells Me that Feeling is My Body or Self...! > >---------- > > > >Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > > > > > > David > > > > > > Try this brave investigation: > > > Observe how you identify yourself. > > > Then drop all identifying just for a moment. > > > What is left? > > > > > > Xan > > > > > > ```````` > > > Xan...What is there to Identify with Other than the Mind and the > > > Body...Anyway...? > > > ---------- > > > > > > > It's Not Possible to Be Conscious and Love Everything Equally...! > > > > > > > > > > > > ~ Not as long as you identify with the mind and body, anyway. > > > > > > > > Xan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Kelvin...I agree with You...It would be better to Talk about what We are Talking about as 'What Is'...!...When You say... " Facing What Is with 'I don't Know' is Deep Inquiry, as far as I'm concerned. " ...I Look at Being able to Say " I don't Know " and Leaving It at that and Going No further is a Form of Surrender...!...And what is Left after the Final Answer of " I don't Know " ...?...What Is...! The Purpose of Zen is to Get One to the Point where there is No Need to Be Somewhere Other than What Is...!...People that are Caught Up in their Imagination have No Other Choice other than to Play the Dog Chasing Its Tail Game thinking that Somehow their Imaginary Tail is Something Other than What they Are...! Nisargadatta, " M.K. Hovila " <hovila@f...> wrote: > David, > > > But the " Me " cannot Be the Background because You cannot Observe the > > Background Consciously...when You are Seeing the " Me " as Operating > > within Awareness Kelvin...where are You Seeing this...You're Seeing > > this in the Foreground...! > > I agree, we can't observe the background because we ARE the background, > which contains everything. The eye cannot see itself. The Me is in the > foreground, an appearance within the background. > > > Kelvin...I believe this is Where We Disagree...if You Say there is a > > False Self then that Presupposes there is a Real or True Self...both > > the False and the True Self are the Same thing...they are a Product > > of Your Imagination...! > > Let's not use the term " True Self. " Let's use the term " What Is. " No > notion of a self is implied in this term. The False Self is only false in > the sense that we define ourselves as only an individual body, mind, and > perhaps spirit, whatever that is. But what is it that is aware of this > individual bodymindspirit? This is the great mystery. There is no need to > try to solve the mystery. We can't, can we? All we can do is face What Is. > I am sensing that your form of inquiry is " I don't know. " Facing What Is > with " I don't know " is deep inquiry, as far as I am concerned. > > Kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 In a message dated 01/31/01 3:19:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, dswgos writes: And what is Left after the Final Answer of "I don't Know"...?...What Is...! YES!! Pardon me for jumping in here. ;-) I've been watching your dialogue and wanted to tell you about a little game my twin sister and I play that we call "It's here, it's here, it's here." When we take in, very consciously, the present moment and continue to do that for several moments, we say to ourselves...."It's HERE." Then, when we're finished ....(or we think we're finished), it's still here. The consciousness of the moment continues.........and continues..............and continues......................and continues. Finally we tire of the exercise.....and yet it continues.... (IT's still HERE).............So we say, o.k. that's all for now........and it continues....... IT's ALWAYS STILL HERE.......ALWAYS. No matter what you do.......you can't stop the game. It's a game that is timeless, and endless. OK.....stop playing now. (It's here) now? (It's here) I want out! (It's here) ............................................................................... ............................ IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~.......hahahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 David, > > The Purpose of Zen is to Get One to the Point where there is No Need > to Be Somewhere Other than What Is...!...People that are Caught Up in > their Imagination have No Other Choice other than to Play the Dog > Chasing Its Tail Game thinking that Somehow their Imaginary Tail is > Something Other than What they Are...! I like what you say here. It seems to me that being " Caught Up in their Imagination " is another way of saying " being identified. " And I think what you say is perfectly in accord with Nisargadatta's teaching. Even though he speaks about " Consciousness " or even " God, " he is not advocating that one escape from this world into a better one. Sometimes the teaching is misinterpreted that way, but people misinterpret Zen and everything else, too. Words like Consciousness, " " God " and " Emptiness " are mere conveniences, a way of pointing to that which is unnameable. Kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 RejaJoy...You Sound Like You're Addicted to Life...! Nisargadatta, RejaJoy@a... wrote: > In a message dated 01/31/01 3:19:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, > dswgos@h... writes: > > > > And what is Left after > > the Final Answer of " I don't Know " ...?...What Is...! > > > > YES!! Pardon me for jumping in here. ;-) I've been watching your dialogue and > wanted to tell you about a little game my twin sister and I play that we call > " It's here, it's here, it's here. " > > When we take in, very consciously, the present moment and continue to do that > for several moments, we say to ourselves.... " It's HERE. " Then, when we're > finished ....(or we think we're finished), it's still here. > > The consciousness of the moment continues.........and > continues..............and continues......................and continues. > > Finally we tire of the exercise.....and yet it continues.... (IT's still > HERE).............So we say, o.k. that's all for now........and it > continues....... > > IT's ALWAYS STILL HERE.......ALWAYS. No matter what you do.......you can't > stop the game. It's a game that is timeless, and endless. > > OK.....stop playing now. (It's here) > > now? (It's here) > > I want out! (It's here) > > .................................................................... ........... > > ........................... > > IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S > HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S > HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S > HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S > HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S HERE~IT'S > HERE~.......hahahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Yes...I Agree with You Kelvin when You Say... " Words like 'Concsciousness', 'God' and 'Emptiness' are conveniences... " ...they Enable Us to Navigate in this Life between the Real Dream We Live in and the Imaginary Dream We could Live in...! The Mind has a Navigational System...It's Called the " Imagination " ...!...Without the Imagination we would be No Better off than a Cloud...It's Because of the Imagination that We can Go from One Place to Another Consciously...and at the Same time the Imagination has a Negative Aspect to It whereby We can Get Caught Up in It and Believe Everything It Presents to Us and this Causes Unnecessary Suffering...! It would Seem that the Object of this Life is to Free One's Self from Unnecessary Suffering...It Seems that this is what the Maharaj has done for His Self and at the Same Time I can't Go Along with His Train of Thought to Achieve this Freedom...! ---------- Nisargadatta, " M.K. Hovila " <hovila@f...> wrote: > David, > > > > The Purpose of Zen is to Get One to the Point where there is No Need > > to Be Somewhere Other than What Is...!...People that are Caught Up in > > their Imagination have No Other Choice other than to Play the Dog > > Chasing Its Tail Game thinking that Somehow their Imaginary Tail is > > Something Other than What they Are...! > > I like what you say here. It seems to me that being " Caught Up in their > Imagination " is another way of saying " being identified. " And I think what > you say is perfectly in accord with Nisargadatta's teaching. Even though he > speaks about " Consciousness " or even " God, " he is not advocating that one > escape from this world into a better one. Sometimes the teaching is > misinterpreted that way, but people misinterpret Zen and everything else, > too. Words like Consciousness, " " God " and " Emptiness " are mere > conveniences, a way of pointing to that which is unnameable. > > Kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 In a message dated 02/01/01 9:30:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, dswgos writes: RejaJoy...You Sound Like You're Addicted to Life...! I'm beginning to realize that life is not the opposite of death. It IS what IS. When I flow with it......and own it......I am One with it. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 <dswgos Re: Impossibility > Yes...I Agree with You Kelvin when You Say... " Words > like 'Concsciousness', 'God' and 'Emptiness' are > conveniences... " ...they Enable Us to Navigate in this Life between > the Real Dream We Live in and the Imaginary Dream We could Live in...! Hi Kelvin, I think the word you're looking for here is 'expedient. In a more broad sense one could say that Catholicism, Buddhism, Hinduism, A Course in Miracles and many other paths are all simply expedients - I certainly would. This would be logical in that the map, after all, is not the territory. It's the same with 'words' like 'consciousness' or 'God'. As Nisargadatta said, these are just words and descriptions but definately not the actuall experience. I always think of things like the above as being akin to sub-cultures or languages. In normal life, so many people have such a poorly developed understanding of Enlightenment that it can be necessary to slowly prepare the mind for it by introducing concepts like 'God' in, firstly, a way that they can relate to and then, secondly, have them expand their understanding of it. This, of course, brings it's own problems if someone becomes 'stuck' in their idea of God as is wont to happen. But then, those who have achieved Release do acknowledge the extreme difficulty in relating what it is they are trying to describe. I suppose at the end of the day we must accept that for some, incarnating into this life to learn at least some idea about Enlightenment may be a big victory and we shouldn't judge it as meager step towards release. After all, we all must have been at that stage at some point and I'm sure that the 'Angels' are quite aware of everyone, what stage they're at and what they need. > The Mind has a Navigational System...It's Called > the " Imagination " ...!...Without the Imagination we would be No Better > off than a Cloud...It's Because of the Imagination that We can Go > from One Place to Another Consciously... Emphatically, Yes! And this certainly includes Lucid Dreaming (which is what your statement above made me think of) and other more exciting and related phenomenon. Kind regards, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 RejaJoy YES!! Pardon me for jumping in here. ;-) I've been watching your dialogue and wanted to tell you about a little game my twin sister and I play that we call " It's here, it's here, it's here. " ~~~~~~ Reja! You decided to join the Nisargadatta group! Wonderfull! Have you got a copy of 'I am That'? If not, let me assure you that the 100 conversations contained in it have go to be among the mose profound spiritual dialogues ever recorded. I think you'd love it! Kind regards, Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 In a message dated 02/01/01 11:26:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, user writes: Have you got a copy of 'I am That'? John Moir (England) lent me a copy back in 1994 (?) but I had to send it back to him. I plan to get another. I'll order one tonight. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 RejaJoy...Now You're Starting to Sound Like a River...! Nisargadatta, RejaJoy@a... wrote: > In a message dated 02/01/01 9:30:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, > dswgos@h... writes: > > > > RejaJoy...You Sound Like You're Addicted to Life...! > > > I'm beginning to realize that life is not the opposite of death. > It IS what IS. When I flow with it......and own it......I am One with it. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 Nisargadatta, dswgos@h... wrote: > RejaJoy...Now You're Starting to Sound Like a River...! > > Nisargadatta, RejaJoy@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 02/01/01 9:30:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > dswgos@h... writes: > > > > > > > RejaJoy...You Sound Like You're Addicted to Life...! > > > > > I'm beginning to realize that life is not the opposite of death. > > It IS what IS. When I flow with it......and own it......I am One > with it. ;-) yes yes yes yes and a deep deep bow! Loveya - michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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