The Jnani: Relationship between Understanding and Seeing

[Guest guest]

I am very interested in the question of the relationship

between " Understanding " and " Seeing " as relates to the " State of the

Jnani " and as relates to the seeker of enlightenment/liberation who

has experiences that yield understanding yet which may not remain

constant in one's vision... but rather come and go...

 

How does one use one's " understanding " correctly when the " seeing "

has temporarily passed...

 

Does anyone happen to know of any quotes/references in Nisargadatta's

work where he addresses this question?

 

In gratitude, Stephen

[Guest guest]

Hi Stephen,

 

Interesting.....

 

My conceptual two bits.......

 

 

-

<slevinson

<Nisargadatta >

Friday, March 02, 2001 08:35 PM

The Jnani: Relationship between Understanding and

Seeing

 

 

> I am very interested in the question of the relationship

> between " Understanding " and " Seeing " as relates to the " State of the

> Jnani "

 

 

Just terminologies, interchangeable.

 

 

 

 

>and as relates to the seeker of enlightenment/liberation who

> has experiences that yield understanding

 

No experience leads to understanding.

Understanding or to use another term-apperception, is when all experiences

have ended with the end of the " experiencer " .

Or to put it in another manner, all experiences, both profound and profane,

all are seen as part of phenomenality.

 

 

> yet which may not remain

> constant in one's vision... but rather come and go...

 

 

Yes, there is a stage of " flip-flop " , conceptually speaking.

A flip-flop stage, is not the state of apperception and yet quite

appropriate, if it is so.

Nothing much to it.

 

 

 

> How does one use one's " understanding " correctly when the " seeing "

> has temporarily passed...

 

 

To whom is it important, that there is to be a " correct " usage of the

understanding/seeing (whatever that might mean)?

 

What is " correct " in phenomenality?

 

The arising of this very question, isn't it the validation of the presence

of the " questioner'?

If so, has apperception occurred?

 

 

> Does anyone happen to know of any quotes/references in Nisargadatta's

> work where he addresses this question?

 

Nisargadatta was a dude.

A dude of the first waters.

That conceptual entity has moved on.

 

Look at the now and here, for the dissolution of the question, the

dissipation of the questioner.

 

 

Mis conceptual dos centravos,

 

 

Cheers

 

Sandeep

[Guest guest]

On Friday 2 March 2001

Stephen asked for references from Nisargadatta

on the concepts of understanding and seeing.

 

I have collected a few statements

Nisargadatta made on the subject of 'jnani'

and 'guru'. I hope they are of some help.

Collectively they give insight into the

state of the jnani, and possibly may

dissolve the questions asked,

or possibly lead to their more precise

reformulation?

 

 

Possibly you inter-mix the concepts of

the seeker of enlightenment and the jnani?

The seeker has no understanding,

because he is probably in search of it.

The jnani has all knowledge within him,

because he is knowledge itself.

The jnani is pure being, knowledge-wisdom,

whereas the seeker is ever-becoming, merely

aspiring towards wisdom and real being.

Fragments of collected knowledge and understanding

are not wisdom? They come and go,

are remembered and forgotten.

The wisdom of the jnani and the understanding

occurring in the seeker are not quite the same.

 

 

 

You introduce the concept of 'time' into

the discussion when you say that

'seeing has temporarily passed'.

Understanding is in the moment now,

perhaps past understanding retained in memory

cannot be applied in the present moment?

That would probably result in misunderstanding?

Understanding arises in the present moment

only? For there to be understanding there has to be

new seeing in the present moment. Renewed seeing.

The jnani lives in the now, the seeker

believes he will live sometime in the future,

when he has found what he seeks?

Eventually the seeker has to enter

the Here and Now.

A difficult lesson?

 

 

Nisargadatta appears to say that

the jnani is the principle which dismisses

the consciousness. If 'seeing' is in consciousness

then all seeing will dissolve with the jnani

into space eventually?

 

Nisargadatta appears to say that

the jnani is the 'ground from which all grows'.

It is observed that

Meister Eckhardt, the German mystic theologian

also frequently alluded to 'the ground of being' etc.

It is sensed that Nisargadatta and Eckhardt are alluding

to the same state.

 

I would suggest that there is a

mass of being

from which I and you, he and she,

the jnani, the guru, and everything,

has its source,

and into which it and we will return

and dissolve

without trace.

It is the Truth,

It is the Real,

It is the ground,

The Here and Now,

which is beyond the mind,

in the sense that the mind cannot understand it.

It can be glimpsed but not comprehended.

 

Nisargadatta appears to say that

what you hear from the jnani,

what you understand,

has eventually to be given up.

 

Therefore 'seeing' is dismissed,

and 'understanding' is given up.

Difficult lessons?

 

John.

 

 

Nisargadatta's Marathi translated into English:

 

The Jnani and The Guru

 

A jnani is recognized easily because

they do not have any pride in their Self-knowledge,

since they have transcended that knowledge.

They say “I am not this knowledge or this consciousness.”

 

In the jnani the state is that of total disassociation from

the body-mind.

The result is that there are no wants or desires.

Because the disassociation is total there is no question

of any effect of such a state, pleasing or otherwise.

 

Not only will the jnani have no desires or expectations,

but neither will he have the attraction “to be”.

The attraction of the consciousness to be is not there.

To have any hopes, expectations, etc., one must have an image,

an identity.

 

The jnani is that principle which dismisses

the life force and the consciousness.

 

The jnani is alone, but he is all.

He is not even a being.

He is the beingness of all beings.

Not even that. No words apply.

He is what he is, the ground from which all grows.

 

The jnani suffers with those who suffer.

The event itself is of little importance,

but he is full of compassion for the suffering being,

whether alive or dead, in the body or out of it.

After all, love and compassion are his very nature.

He is one with all that lives and love is that oneness in action.

 

For the jnani the entire universe is his body,

all life is his life.

 

The whole is real, the part comes and goes.

The particular is born and reborn,

changing name and shape,

the jnani is the Changeless Reality

which makes the changeful possible.

 

Why do sages do nothing to help the millions who suffer?

Because their suffering is illusory.

Let the illusory world take care of itself,

you must find out who you are.

 

Why does the jnani talk, and teach?

Because the life span has to be spent,

it has to be used. It is merely entertainment.

Everything is entertainment.

 

What one Guru will speak about openly,

others will not.

The amount of receptivity each one has

depends on his own luck.

What the disciple hears from the Guru he cannot utilize.

Whatever the disciple hears will

spontaneously do what it likes.

 

You accumulate what you have heard from the Guru,

but, ultimately, whatever is accumulated has to be given up.

It is to be understood, used, and then given up.

 

A jnani cannot give knowledge to anyone.

All he can do is point to that which is your true nature.

 

The thought of a jnani pervades humanity

and works ceaselessly for good.

Being anonymous, coming from within,

it is the more powerful and compelling.

That is how the world improves.....

the inner aiding and blessing the outer.

When a jnani dies, he is no more,

in the sense in which a river is no more

when it merges in the sea, the name,

the shape are no more,

but the water remains and becomes one with the ocean.

When a jnani joins the universal mind,

all his goodness and wisdom become the heritage

of humanity and uplift every human being.

 

No doubt Gurus are very important,

very significant, but finally they merge into space.

 

The Guru is the manifestation of the knowledge

which you will also be in the course of time.

When you see the image of a Guru,

it represents knowledge only, your consciousness.

The image may be of the Guru, Krishna, Christ, etc.;

it is the manifestation of the knowledge which you are.

 

It is said that all Gurus are one.

Guru is the same all-pervading consciousness “I Am”.

The Sat-Guru has gone beyond all these concepts,

including the primary concept “I Am”.

 

Nothing is to be done.

Be in your beingness and everything that

is to happen will happen.

You must have a deep yearning to attain the Truth.

You must have the intense need to understand.

To such a person, the Guru arrives and breaks the shell.

 

Love for the Guru is without the feeling of duality.

 

Guru is only purest consciousness which is all-pervading.

 

A jnani identifies with the universal consciousness

and so there is a perfect adaptation

to everything and every place.

Only witnessing is taking place.

The jnani only witnesses,

he is not individually concerned with what happens.

 

You think you are one individual

and the Guru is another individual, but this is not so.

There are no individuals separate from one another.

Guru is the knower of this consciousness which is temporary.

 

Whatever my Guru said, I implicitly followed,

with full conviction, and with that conviction I got results.

People will hear what the Guru says,

but hardly anyone will put it into practice.

 

There are Gurus who are just shopkeepers,

trading in spirituality.

 

A jnani is beyond concept.

He gives no importance to any concept.

 

By merely acquiring knowledge

one cannot claim to be a jnani.

The jnani is not required to know anything

as he is knowledge itself.

The jnana-yoga is the highest state in spirituality,

in this state there is no individuality,

as this is the all-pervading state.

The sense of individuality and needs

are felt prior to jnana-yoga,

but after the accomplishment of jnana-yoga,

one is beyond needs and individual personality.

 

A jnani is that state from which

the witnessing of the knowledge “I Am” takes place.

In that jnani state there is no touch of “I Amness”,

it is a quality-less state and it is not knowledge,

because knowledge means “I Amness”.

When there are no thoughts,

time has stopped, but space will be there,

a thought-free state is something like space, space-like.

I am the witness that the thought-free state is there.

That is the Self, “I Am”, the being.

Because the being is there,

having removed all the pollution,

including thought,

time is also gone.....and space and beingness is there.

When that state ends, it is the Absolute state,

a something sweet-like state.

 

The one who recognizes this beingness

and transcends it is Sat Guru.

The Parabrahman principle is also the Sat-Guru.

 

Life itself is the Supreme Guru.

Be attentive to its lessons and obedient to its commands.

When you personalize their source,

you have an outer Guru.

When you take them from life, the Guru is within.

Have your Guru always in your heart

and remember his instructions.

 

Your own Self is your ultimate teacher (satguru).

The outer teacher (Guru) is merely a milestone.

Only your inner teacher will walk with you to the goal,

for he is the goal.

Look within and you will find him.

The greatest Guru is your inner self.

Truly, he is the supreme teacher.

He alone can take you to your goal,

and he alone meets you at the end of the road.

Confide in him and you need no outer Guru.

 

That which sees all this is the inner teacher.

He alone is, all else only appears to be.

He is the witness.

You need not see the witness in front of you.

To be is to know.

He is your own self (svarupa).

Find him and cling to him and you will be saved and safe.

 

When the Guru feels disciples have sufficient knowledge

on which they can continue their own search,

he tells them to leave.

It is not necessary for them to be physically present.

This makes room for newcomers.

The Guru expounds the knowledge to the disciple

and takes him out of the body-mind sense,

and then asks him to fend for himself.

 

The Guru has compassion not for the individual

but for that beingness which has trapped itself

into identifying with a number of individuals.

 

Only if my beingness is there,

can the existence of sages and gurus arise.

They last and flourish in my beingness,

so long as I am there.

Without my beingness.....that is without the message “I Am”.....

my eternal Absolute only prevails.

 

Every sentient being has a guru within himself.

 

In the initial stages you must have an external Guru.

That Guru initiates you with the inner Guru.

 

From your body-mind state

you will go to pilgrimages and various gurus.

So long as the consciousness is there,

that humming goes on.

Who does the humming?

The principle which is humming

and saying “I Am, I Am” is itself your Guru.

If you understand this Guru, the consciousness,

and dwell there you will be self-realized.

Then no more spirituality and disciplines are necessary.

The Guru is the sense of “I Amness”.

 

Extracts from various books recording Nisargadatta's talks.

 

 

>slevinson

>Nisargadatta

>Nisargadatta

> The Jnani: Relationship between Understanding and

>Seeing

>Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:05:26 -0000

>

>I am very interested in the question of the relationship

>between " Understanding " and " Seeing " as relates to the " State of the

>Jnani " and as relates to the seeker of enlightenment/liberation who

>has experiences that yield understanding yet which may not remain

>constant in one's vision... but rather come and go...

>

>How does one use one's " understanding " correctly when the " seeing "

>has temporarily passed...

>

>Does anyone happen to know of any quotes/references in Nisargadatta's

>work where he addresses this question?

>

>In gratitude, Stephen

>

 

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