Guest guest Posted March 15, 2001 Report Share Posted March 15, 2001 > >The question that arises for me (assuming > >your definition of Love is similar to mine) is: > > > >what exists *apart* from Love....that > >Love would need to root in? > > My response would be to say that Love is never apart from anything, it > is the effort of trying to make it go away that is the 'problem'. This helps me to hear your point. In your statement, " Karma does seem to answer up to our searching, but when Love takes root there is nothing that can be done to stop it " you weren't suggesting that Love is something that comes *into* us, but is what IS seen, once our desires and fears (which create karma or destiny) no longer obstruct the View? If this is your meaning, I would add that nothing can *stop* karma, especially the 'desire' to be free of it. Freedom from suffering is no longer desiring events to unfold any way other than the way they are. It's no longer wanting people to act any differently than the way they currently are. For example, when I am not presently identified one way or another, there is no preference for how people behave, or for what unfolds for 'me' to do. Only when I get 'hooked into' self identity/delusion do I care a wit what others do or don't do. That's why what N says doesn't ring true for me, " Sattva, that works for righteousness and orderly development, must not be thwarted. When obstructed it turns against itself and becomes destructive. " Why hold one of the gunas up as better than another? As I understand the 3 gunas (the 3 primary qualities of nature), the challenge is NOT to choose or aspire to one or the other: sattva (purity, illumination), rajas (passion born of desire), and tamas (darkness, ignorance, crudeness of man). The Bhagavad gita seems more on target when it says, " What are the qualities of the person who has transcended these three gunas? how does he behave and how does he does he actually achieve it? When a man overcomes the three gunas, he neither likes illumination, activity and delusion when present nor dislikes when they are absent (14.22). He remains unshaken, unconcerned, knowing that the gunas are carrying out their actions (14.23). Alike in pleasure and pain, remaining the same towards a piece of gold, or a lump of clay, towards the desirable and the undesirable, equal in defamation and self-adulation (14.24), alike in honor and dishonor, same to friends and foes, without any egoistic effort in performing actions, he raises above the gunas (14.25). " more later..... Melody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2001 Report Share Posted March 16, 2001 > >The Bhagavad gita seems more on target when it says, > > > > " What are the qualities of the person who has transcended these three > >gunas? how does he behave and how does he does he actually achieve it? > >When a man overcomes the three gunas, he neither likes illumination, > >activity and delusion when present nor dislikes when they are absent > >(14.22). He remains unshaken, unconcerned, knowing that the gunas are > >carrying out their actions (14.23). Alike in pleasure and pain, > >remaining the same towards a piece of gold, or a lump of clay, towards > >the desirable and the undesirable, equal in defamation and > >self-adulation (14.24), alike in honor and dishonor, same to friends > >and foes, without any egoistic effort in performing actions, he raises > >above the gunas (14.25). " > Hi Paul and everyone, I woke up this morning seeing this another way. If we accept what N. has said, " More than happiness, love wants growth, the widening and deepening of consciousness and being " , and we accept what the Bhagavad-Gita Gita says, " When a man overcomes the three gunas, he neither likes illumination, activity and delusion when present nor dislikes when they are absent (14.22) " science then shows us why the following statement of N's is true.... " Sattva, that works for righteousness and orderly development, must not be thwarted. When obstructed it turns against itself and becomes destructive " For example, if my hand is moving in one direction, and meets an obstruction, my hand just might get broken. And we all know the rest of the story. :-) It seems then, that the key to overcoming any and all of the gunas is in not creating resistance to *any* movement....whatever direction it is moving. On the other hand, obstructing one of the gunas... offering resistance...definitely has it's place. If one is 'identified' as 'light' or 'dark' or 'wise' or 'ignorant', sometimes experiencing movements from the " opposite " perspective is just the avenue for love to get what N says it wants: the widening and deepening of consciousness and being. > What comes to mind is the phrase: " it's a moot point'. :-) LOL. And look at how many words it look to discover exactly the same thing. :-) > I wish that I had a better answer for you... You do? :-) love, Melody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2001 Report Share Posted March 16, 2001 Hi again, Paul.... <snip> > Last year while I was reading " I Am That " , I came across this > sentence: " You need not know all the 'why' and 'how', there is no end > to questions. Abandon all desires and keep your mind silent and you > shall discover. " I have no doubt that what he says may be true. Unfortunately this body-mind is far to ornery to do something simply because it's told to. :-) Fortunately, it has discovered time and time again, that if you let desires run their course.....allow them their 'play'.....they will lose their 'hold' and fascination.... and the 'mind' becomes silent all on it's own. > This became a defining moment for me. To that end, sometimes when I > try to come up with an answer to some question, and if the answer is > not there, then it simply is not there, no matter what. Does this really 'end' the desire to know? Or does it just repress it or distract it? > > Maybe a better response would have been: > > " I have no idea what you are talking about, even though I know what > you are saying. " LOL. I love it! > > So it's not that I wish that I had a better answer for you - it's more > of not having any answer at all. > > Paul I have appreciated all that you have offered. Namaste, Melody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2001 Report Share Posted March 16, 2001 On Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:17:57 -0800, you wrote: >This helps me to hear your point. " With eyes I see, and ears do I hear, but neither compare to the Grace of thee. " >In your statement, > > " Karma does seem to answer up to our searching, >but when Love takes root there is nothing that >can be done to stop it " > >you weren't suggesting that Love is something >that comes *into* us, but is what IS seen, once >our desires and fears (which create karma or destiny) >no longer obstruct the View? You said this well. Also that once Love takes 'root', there is nothing that can be done to stop it. (This is where a picture of a seed taking root comes in...) >If this is your meaning, I would add that nothing can *stop* karma, >especially the 'desire' to be free of it. From the mind's point-of-view, I would agree. The 'it' that I referred to was in regard to Love and not karma. " With a taste of honey, surely there will be more... " >Freedom from suffering is no longer desiring events >to unfold any way other than the way they are. >It's no longer wanting people to act any differently >than the way they currently are. For example, when >I am not presently identified one way or another, there >is no preference for how people behave, or for what >unfolds for 'me' to do. Only when I get 'hooked into' >self identity/delusion do I care a wit what others do >or don't do. You have described this quite nicely. >That's why what N says doesn't ring true for me, > > > " Sattva, that works for righteousness and orderly development, >must not be thwarted. When obstructed it turns against itself and >becomes destructive. " > >Why hold one of the gunas up as better than another? > >As I understand the 3 gunas (the 3 primary qualities >of nature), the challenge is NOT to choose or aspire to >one or the other: sattva (purity, illumination), rajas >(passion born of desire), and tamas (darkness, ignorance, >crudeness of man). > >The Bhagavad gita seems more on target when it says, > > " What are the qualities of the person who has transcended these three >gunas? how does he behave and how does he does he actually achieve it? >When a man overcomes the three gunas, he neither likes illumination, >activity and delusion when present nor dislikes when they are absent >(14.22). He remains unshaken, unconcerned, knowing that the gunas are >carrying out their actions (14.23). Alike in pleasure and pain, >remaining the same towards a piece of gold, or a lump of clay, towards >the desirable and the undesirable, equal in defamation and >self-adulation (14.24), alike in honor and dishonor, same to friends >and foes, without any egoistic effort in performing actions, he raises >above the gunas (14.25). " What comes to mind is the phrase: " it's a moot point'. :-) I wish that I had a better answer for you... Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2001 Report Share Posted March 16, 2001 I'd like to fill in just a bit more... >What comes to mind is the phrase: " it's a moot point'. :-) (this was sort of a play on our 'moot' exchange, even though the concepts presented were well taken.) > >I wish that I had a better answer for you... Last year while I was reading " I Am That " , I came across this sentence: " You need not know all the 'why' and 'how', there is no end to questions. Abandon all desires and keep your mind silent and you shall discover. " This became a defining moment for me. To that end, sometimes when I try to come up with an answer to some question, and if the answer is not there, then it simply is not there, no matter what. Maybe a better response would have been: " I have no idea what you are talking about, even though I know what you are saying. " So it's not that I wish that I had a better answer for you - it's more of not having any answer at all. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2001 Report Share Posted March 16, 2001 On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:19:13 -0800, you wrote: Melody wrote: >If one is 'identified' as 'light' or 'dark' or 'wise' >or 'ignorant', sometimes experiencing movements >from the " opposite " perspective is just the avenue for >love to get what N says it wants: the widening and deepening >of consciousness and being. I think that you hit the nail right on the head. Love cannot be denied, so you might as well enjoy the ride! :-) Melody also wrote: >I have no doubt that what he says may be true. >Unfortunately this body-mind is far to ornery to >do something simply because it's told to. :-) > >Fortunately, it has discovered time and time again, >that if you let desires run their course.....allow them >their 'play'.....they will lose their 'hold' and fascination.... > >and the 'mind' becomes silent all on it's own. I understand what you are saying, and it seems that you know where it is that you are going with this. :-) >> This became a defining moment for me. To that end, sometimes when I >> try to come up with an answer to some question, and if the answer is >> not there, then it simply is not there, no matter what. > > >Does this really 'end' the desire to know? Or does it just >repress it or distract it? More of a 'letting go', same as letting a particular desire run it's course. The 'doing' is the hindrance. (I know that 'letting go' could be considered a 'doing' as well, but I have no idea what other word would describe the concept of doing nothing, yet having things 'happen') >I have appreciated all that you have offered. ....just to let you know, I haven't stood back up yet from my bow of gratitude... :-) Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2001 Report Share Posted March 17, 2001 Melody wrote: ~if my hand is moving in one direction, ~and meets an obstruction, my hand just might get ~broken. And we all know the rest of the story. :-) ~It seems then, that the key to overcoming any and all of the gunas is ~in not creating resistance to *any* movement....whatever direction ~it is moving. ~On the other hand, obstructing one of the gunas... ~offering resistance...definitely has it's place. This brings to mind the Tao of Lao Tzu. Action within non-action accompanies seeing. With clear observation, whatever is needed is done without engaging a doer. -tomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2001 Report Share Posted March 18, 2001 Hi Tomas, It's good to hear your voice again.... > Melody wrote: > > ~if my hand is moving in one direction, > ~and meets an obstruction, my hand just might get > ~broken. And we all know the rest of the story. :-) > > ~It seems then, that the key to overcoming any and all of the gunas is > ~in not creating resistance to *any* movement....whatever direction > ~it is moving. > > ~On the other hand, obstructing one of the gunas... > ~offering resistance...definitely has it's place. > > > This brings to mind the Tao of Lao Tzu. > > Action within non-action accompanies seeing. > With clear observation, whatever is needed is done > without engaging a doer. > > -tomas " ....whatever is needed is done without engaging a doer. " I like that. It reminds me of a lesser known Tao - the Tao of Pooh: " While Eeyore frets ... .... and Piglet hesitates .... and Rabbit calculates .... and Owl pontificates ....Pooh just is. " :-) Melody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.