Guest guest Posted March 23, 2001 Report Share Posted March 23, 2001 > March 23 > > > > What we call our voluntary actions are in fact involuntary and our supposed > personal free-will is nothing but an ineffectual and temporary obstruction > to the natural, involuntary workings of the universe. I believe I hear the essence of what he is saying, troubled though I was at first to hear him use the word " ineffectual " . What I hear him say is that Life has It's intention. Call it fate, destiny, karma.... whatever. And the supposed " free-will actions " of an individual that attempt to run 'counter' to that Movement, will fail to change the direction of that Movement....they can only delay the inevitable. He seems to be taking this statement a step further below by suggesting that supposed " free-will actions " to *speed up* that Movement, to " bring about " apperception, is an exercise in futility, as well. This seems to be at odds with the 'practice' Maharaj is said to have encouraged: the focusing of attention on " I Am " . This may *not* be at odds, however, if Maharaj was doing what Osho did: Giving the disciples something to do, until the 'instant' appercption Ramesh describes below happens. > Making positive effort to stop thinking as a spiritual practice is an > exercise in futility, and so is any other kind of effort. The only > effective effort is instant apperception of truth, which is in fact > effortless. > Melody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2001 Report Share Posted March 23, 2001 Nisargadatta, " Melody " <melody@s...> wrote: > What I hear him say is that Life has It's intention. Call > it fate, destiny, karma.... whatever. And the supposed > " free-will actions " of an individual that attempt to run > 'counter' to that Movement, will fail to change the > direction of that Movement....they can only delay the > inevitable. They can't even do that (delay). The 'doer' is purely illusion. The idea of a doer arises with each action occurring, but nobody is doing anything... only an idea " I did this " arises at the same instant as various actions occur (or perhaps lags slightly 'behind' -- I'll leave that to the philosophers and brain specialists). What seems to cause the suffering is the sense of resistance that arises along with the sense of being a doer. Who hasn't felt the burden of " responsibility? " > He seems to be taking this statement a step further > below by suggesting that supposed " free-will actions " > to *speed up* that Movement, to " bring about " apperception, > is an exercise in futility, as well. > > This seems to be at odds with the 'practice' Maharaj > is said to have encouraged: the focusing of attention on > " I Am " . The focusing of attention on " I Am " is actually a demonstration of futility. It tends to encourage seeking/striving momentum to come to a stop. > This may *not* be at odds, however, if Maharaj was > doing what Osho did: Giving the disciples something > to do, until the 'instant' appercption Ramesh describes > below happens. Yes, essentially that's what he was doing, with a twist: It also includes a strong element of 'self-inquiry' ala Sri Ramana Maharshi. Remaining with the Beingness is essentially the same thing as Maharshi's " Who am I? " inquiry (presented even better, if you asked me). Namaste, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2001 Report Share Posted March 23, 2001 Melody: ~What I hear him say is that Life has It's intention. Call ~it fate, destiny, karma.... whatever. And the supposed ~ " free-will actions " of an individual that attempt to run ~'counter' to that Movement, will fail to change the ~direction of that Movement....they can only delay the ~inevitable. ~He seems to be taking this statement a step further ~below by suggesting that supposed " free-will actions " ~to *speed up* that Movement, to " bring about " apperception, ~is an exercise in futility, as well. ~This seems to be at odds with the 'practice' Maharaj ~is said to have encouraged: the focusing of attention on ~ " I Am " . Nisargadatta points out that the observed thinking, talking and acting of the body/mind referred to as Nisargadatta simply enters awareness, without apparent effort on the part of any imagined identity. He also states that everything is caused by everything else. Thus his assertions are the result of everything, even as they are the cause of everything. This universal causation--intent-at-large--if you will, acts upon all, including those instances of mind that happen to be privy to Nisargadatta's statements. In this vein when admonitions attributed to Nisargadatta enter into awareness, they may be said to cause behaviors conducive to " enlightenment, " without entailing an exercise of personal will on the part of any imagined identity. -tomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2001 Report Share Posted March 23, 2001 Hi Tim..... > Nisargadatta, " Melody " <melody@s...> wrote: > > > What I hear him say is that Life has It's intention. Call > > it fate, destiny, karma.... whatever. And the supposed > > " free-will actions " of an individual that attempt to run > > 'counter' to that Movement, will fail to change the > > direction of that Movement....they can only delay the > > inevitable. > > They can't even do that (delay). The 'doer' is purely illusion. The > idea of a doer arises with each action occurring, but nobody is doing > anything... only an idea " I did this " arises at the same instant as > various actions occur (or perhaps lags slightly 'behind' -- I'll > leave that to the philosophers and brain specialists). This is one part of his statement that really hung me up at first....the idea of *delaying* the inevitable. But something comes to mind which may be an example of what he is saying: I used to be a smoker, and for many years I struggled and struggled to stop. That 'struggle' not only cost me a lot of money, but with that struggle came a lot of feelings of shame mixed with self-loathing. And so I suffered not only with the fear of disease and a short life, but with a heightened sense of shame and self-loathing because " I hadn't the *will* to change " .( hehehe) Then one day, I decided it was time to stop. It wasn't one of those " I should " decisions, but a sense of determination and finality that arose. And within 2 days I had. All those years of struggle and shame and expense....for nought! And it does not seem to be such a long stretch to see that had not that struggle had a 'piling on' effect ...emotionally.... the habit of smoking may have ended long before. I could certainly see how it could have. It could be this 'piling on' effect.....this digging a bigger hole, so to speak... that he is referring to. And yet, at the same time, this 'piling on' of shame and self-loathing, was the perfect action based on programmings and conditionings. And so what *appears* to be a delay, could not have unfolded any other way for this particular 'biological computer'. <snip> > > He seems to be taking this statement a step further > > below by suggesting that supposed " free-will actions " > > to *speed up* that Movement, to " bring about " apperception, > > is an exercise in futility, as well. > > > > This seems to be at odds with the 'practice' Maharaj > > is said to have encouraged: the focusing of attention on > > " I Am " . > > The focusing of attention on " I Am " is actually a demonstration of > futility. It tends to encourage seeking/striving momentum to come to > a stop. I understand. But why do we want the " seeking/striving momentum " to come to a stop??? Isn't that just veiled seeking???? I guess my question, restated, would be: why does Maharaj tell his disciples to focus on " I Am " .... if not to 'fascilitate' awakening.....something Ramesh says can't be done? Well...heck. Just as I write this, these thoughts come to mind: His telling disciples to focus on " I AM " will NOT *speed up* awakening. His teaching may be just the words that individual was ready to hear at that time. And Existence placed those disciples (or readers) such that those words, and that 'doing' would unfold, just as it did. (I'm not sure if I made sense to anyone, but it does resonate with me finally. ) More and more this 'body mind complex' of mine is 'relaxing into' this concept of non-doing. And by being exposed first to sandeep, then Osho, then Ramesh and Nisargadatta, Life is unfolding perfectly - despite, for the first 2 years, a lot of struggling to put my attention and efforts elsewhere. :-)) Thanks for the discussion, Tim. :-) Melody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2001 Report Share Posted March 23, 2001 > He also states that everything is caused by everything > else. Thus his assertions are the result of everything, > even as they are the cause of everything. This > universal causation--intent-at-large--if you will, acts > upon all, including those instances of mind that > happen to be privy to Nisargadatta's statements. Beautiful, tomas!! Yes, yes. I see that now. > > In this vein when admonitions attributed to > Nisargadatta enter into awareness, they may > be said to cause behaviors conducive to > " enlightenment, " without entailing an exercise > of personal will on the part of any imagined > identity. > > -tomas I loved reading this directly after writing my response to Tim. Perfect. Absolutely perfect. Thanks all! Melody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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