Guest guest Posted March 24, 2001 Report Share Posted March 24, 2001 >I guess my question, restated, would be: why does Maharaj >tell his disciples to focus on " I Am " .... if not to 'fascilitate' >awakening.....something Ramesh says can't be done? ~ I wonder what faciliated Ramesh's awakening. Something has to intervene in the momentum of the dreamed identity. Xan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2001 Report Share Posted March 24, 2001 At 01:54 PM 3/24/01 -0700, you wrote: >I guess my question, restated, would be: why does Maharaj >tell his disciples to focus on " I Am " .... if not to 'fascilitate' >awakening.....something Ramesh says can't be done? ~ I wonder what faciliated Ramesh's awakening. Something has to intervene in the momentum of the dreamed identity. Xan The momentum of a dream identity *is* the dream identity. The facilitation for that identity, of changes in its states, are dream occurrences. That the dream never occurred is " awakening " -- hence no facilitation required nor available. There is nothing outside of me, to facilitate changes in me. There is nothing inside me, into which I could intervene. The dream identity is ultimately the dream itself, and the dream itself has no place to occur, and is therefore not a problem -- for no one " has " the dream. I know, I know, try telling this to a dream character who is constantly being upset by nightmarish situations ;-) Yet that dream character, ultimately, is only the dream itself, and that dream has never had a place to occur, nor anyone who " owns " the dream character -- whether it appears in the dream to be asleep or awake. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2001 Report Share Posted March 24, 2001 That the dream never occurred is " awakening " -- hence no facilitation required nor available. Dan -------------- Put another way, how could anything facilitate something that never happened. El .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2001 Report Share Posted March 24, 2001 Enjoyed Dan's comments on this, thought I'd add a few too... The 'problem' with this is that within a dream, there isn't anyone or anything apart from the dream to intervene. There is no " outside the dream " to someone asleep and dreaming, and the dreamer obviously can't just choose to awaken. Luckily, there isn't any dream, or dreamer. Paradoxical as it may sound, what facilitates awakening is the fact that the dream never was. Becoming aware of this fact, the belief in the dream and the dreamer drop together. Staying on topic, Nisargadatta stated 'just see the dream as dream'. This is OK up to a point, but who's supposed to be seeing the dream as dream? I think what he meant was again, remain with Beingness or " I Am. " So many sages and gurus (I can think of 3 right off the top of my head -- Nisargadatta, Papaji and Ramana Maharshi) have stated this, that it boils down to this: " be still. " It sounds impossibly, almost childishly simple. It isn't. " Be still " is only a pointer, like all words. One has to first figure out what that means, and then *actually be still*. And remain still, until there's nobody to remain still any longer. Question -- no insult to the group or anyone, but because Ramesh claimed to be Nisargadatta's disciple, wrote some books and expounded away on a variety of topics, who ever said he was 'awake'? How can it be known? I'm not claiming he is or isn't, just putting forth the question for whoever is reading this. How do you know? Namaste, Tim Nisargadatta, Xan <xanma@e...> wrote: > ~ I wonder what faciliated Ramesh's awakening. > Something has to intervene in the momentum of > the dreamed identity. > > Xan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2001 Report Share Posted March 25, 2001 Hi Tim and all -- Namaste. People talk all the time about being in a dream, waking from the dream, sages who awakened, etc. If you are in a dream, how can you know you are in a dream, without such knowing also being an aspect of the dream? To talk about the dream as dream would imply one is awake - but the fact that one speaks within the dream indicates that the dream is what is, including one's sense of " being awake " whatever that may mean to the supposed speaker ... So, clearly, talk about waking up, sages who know something beyond the dream, things to do to awaken ... are all dream events. What is beyond the dream and the dream itself are not-two. To know the dream in its absolute evenness, is to realize that nothing in the dream is separate from anything else in the dream. The dream-whole is no separate from infinity/reality-whole. This, to me, is what Nisargardatta meant by saying " know the dream as dream " ... The whole effort to conceptualize something beyond the dream, is dream. To try to get out of the dream, is dream. The idea that someone is separate from the dream, who will manipulate himself or herself out of the dream -- is the dream. When the effort to try to wake up, get out, etc., ceases, there is no one separate from the dream. The dream " opens " , as if by magic, to the fact that what is beyond the dream, and the dream, are not-two. This has been said in many different ways, at different times, in different cultures. And so it goes. The reason that the dream never occurred, is that there actually has never been any separation whatsoever between " reality " and " dream " -- nor any separable being for whom such separation could mean anything -- even if it could have occurred --- Love, Dan Enjoyed Dan's comments on this, thought I'd add a few too... The 'problem' with this is that within a dream, there isn't anyone or anything apart from the dream to intervene. There is no " outside the dream " to someone asleep and dreaming, and the dreamer obviously can't just choose to awaken. Luckily, there isn't any dream, or dreamer. Paradoxical as it may sound, what facilitates awakening is the fact that the dream never was. Becoming aware of this fact, the belief in the dream and the dreamer drop together. Staying on topic, Nisargadatta stated 'just see the dream as dream'. This is OK up to a point, but who's supposed to be seeing the dream as dream? I think what he meant was again, remain with Beingness or " I Am. " So many sages and gurus (I can think of 3 right off the top of my head -- Nisargadatta, Papaji and Ramana Maharshi) have stated this, that it boils down to this: " be still. " It sounds impossibly, almost childishly simple. It isn't. " Be still " is only a pointer, like all words. One has to first figure out what that means, and then *actually be still*. And remain still, until there's nobody to remain still any longer. Question -- no insult to the group or anyone, but because Ramesh claimed to be Nisargadatta's disciple, wrote some books and expounded away on a variety of topics, who ever said he was 'awake'? How can it be known? I'm not claiming he is or isn't, just putting forth the question for whoever is reading this. How do you know? Namaste, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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