Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 - <Nisargadatta > <Nisargadatta > Monday, April 30, 2001 3:43 PM New poll for Nisargadatta > Is effort required to realize > enlightenment? Hiyall, Interesting question, in fact this very point was the subject of a heated debate just yesterday with another group. Voting about it is one thing, but an intelligent discussion leading to the 'facts' is quite appropriate. Everywhere we find exponents pushing one view or the other while some like the Gita even talk about the effort-effortless state. UG for example is quite adamant that in spite of any effort or practice, the 'thing' occurred to him by sheer luck, but prior to that event we might admit he made tremendous effort (which he seems to shrud off), until he realized the practice was choking him. He rightly questions the very existence of an enlightened state out there but somewhere else he equates it as our 'natural state'. Guatama also made serious effort before the Buddha emerged. In the Katha Upanishad, which UG so often uses to support his argument, Yamaraj declares to Nachikatas (roughly) - not by effort, or practices or discussion etc. but to whom the Self chooses... - is it that Nachikatas was already matured and prepared for such a teaching? We find the same caliber of seekers around the ancient teacher Dakshinamurti, where silence ( mouna-siddhi) and a simple glance at the seeker, does the job. (Unfortunately, I must admit, we don't find much of this type among our forums.) Vashista tells Rama, in Yog-Vashista, it can happen in the wink of a eye. Interestingly the same texts, including the Katha Upanishad, mentions the merit of practice in other stanzas. In Zen we find the same situation between Soto Zen and Rinzai Zen, one pushing the idea of gradual and the other sudden enlightenment. So it appears that the ancient debate is continuing..and a settled opinion is yet to be decided. ...and my humble opinion, you may well ask ? Well from here it seems that initially it is necessary to practice something, chase after something out there, in order to get rid of an inherent feeling of discontent, a felt limitation, the pain of alienation, our 'assumed' separation. Although it may be very entertaining at the start, when you have tried, exhausted and becoming bored by all the avenues, all the options, at some point it may occur to us that the search and the solutions have not really solved the root problem as it has led away from yourself, the source of the problem. In fact the problem, the pain, the suffering has by now reinforced, emerging tenfold when effort or seeking is absent....so the solution - remain occupied ! It may soon be realized though, the assumed solutions were merely therapeutic, a distraction at most; a tranquilizer - morphine used as a trick to put us to asleep, full with all the twilight dreams and fantastic color vision, temporarily forgetful of the problem. So what happens when we sit with the problem ? When all the answers out there have failed to be satisfactory ? I don't have a clue ! ~dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 At 08:09 AM 5/1/01 , you wrote: >It may soon be realized though, the assumed solutions were >merely therapeutic, a distraction at most; a tranquilizer - morphine >used as a trick to put us to asleep, full with all the twilight dreams >and fantastic color vision, temporarily forgetful of the problem. But then, when one is in pain, morphine is not a bad remedy until healing can take place. Anyone here had major surgery lately? Ever tried it without morphine? It occurs to me that what needs to be done to my ego is tantamount to major surgery. Beck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Enlightenment. What else? Namaste, Omkara Nisargadatta, " D. Sirjue " <dsirju@n...> wrote: > So what happens when we sit with the problem ? When all the > answers out there have failed to be satisfactory ? > I don't have a clue ! > > ~dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 - " Beck " <beck <Nisargadatta > Wednesday, May 02, 2001 11:55 AM Re: The paradox of effort > But then, when one is in pain, morphine is not a bad remedy until healing > can take place. Anyone here had major surgery lately? Ever tried it without > morphine? It occurs to me that what needs to be done to my ego is > tantamount to major surgery. > > Beck Excellent point, Beck, and by all means do what you must to alleviate the pain, according to your particular programming. But for some of us who arrive at the point of despair, who stop kidding ourselves, or as Kierkegaard puts it - stop tranquilizing ourselves with triva - we have no choice but to face the ordeal, to go through the anguish, the fears, alone and with no support. ~dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 > Nisargadatta, " D. Sirjue " <dsirju@n...> wrote: > > > So what happens when we sit with the problem ? When all the > > answers out there have failed to be satisfactory ? > > I don't have a clue ! > > > > ~dave Nisargadatta, " Omkara " <coresite@h...> wrote: > > Enlightenment. What else? Or maybe nothing happens. Is that what enlightenment is? And of course, to who is enlightenment (or nothing happening) occurring? I don't have a clue ! ~As It Is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 > > Nisargadatta, " D. Sirjue " <dsirju@n...> wrote: > > > > > So what happens when we sit with the problem ? When all the > > > answers out there have failed to be satisfactory ? > > > I don't have a clue ! > > > > > > ~dave > > Nisargadatta, " Omkara " <coresite@h...> wrote: > > > > Enlightenment. What else? > > Or maybe nothing happens. Is that what enlightenment is? > > And of course, to who is enlightenment (or nothing happening) > occurring? > > I don't have a clue ! > > ~As It Is Nisargadatta, asitis@n... wrote: Hmmm? I keep coming back to " I don't have a clue " Yes, that's IT! Enlightenment is not having a clue. So if you think that you are not enlightened, you actually are. And if you think that you are enlightened, you probably aren't. With all this in mind, if I meet a Buddha on the road, I'm supposed to kill Him/Her? Now it's all very clear. Or is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 At 04:56 AM 5/3/01 -0000, you wrote: >> Nisargadatta, " D. Sirjue " <dsirju@n...> wrote: >> >> > So what happens when we sit with the problem ? When all the >> > answers out there have failed to be satisfactory ? >> > I don't have a clue ! >> > >> > ~dave > >Nisargadatta, " Omkara " <coresite@h...> wrote: >> >> Enlightenment. What else? > >Or maybe nothing happens. Is that what enlightenment is? > >And of course, to who is enlightenment (or nothing happening) >occurring? > >I don't have a clue ! > >~As It Is Enlightenment is a verb! --Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 At 06:16 PM 5/2/01 -0400, you wrote: > >- > " Beck " <beck ><Nisargadatta > >Wednesday, May 02, 2001 11:55 AM >Re: The paradox of effort > > >> But then, when one is in pain, morphine is not a bad remedy until healing >> can take place. Anyone here had major surgery lately? Ever tried it >without >> morphine? It occurs to me that what needs to be done to my ego is >> tantamount to major surgery. >> >> Beck > >Excellent point, Beck, and by all means do what >you must to alleviate the pain, according to your >particular programming. >But for some of us who arrive at the point of despair, >who stop kidding ourselves, or as Kierkegaard >puts it - stop tranquilizing ourselves with triva - >we have no choice but to face the ordeal, to >go through the anguish, the fears, alone and with no >support. > >~dave Indeed, no choice!! --Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 There's one point that shouldn't be ignored however... what's to prevent 'despair' from simply leading to suicide or clinical depression? :-) I can answer this, but am wondering if either of you know. Namaste, Omkara Nisargadatta, " Michael D. Johnson " <michael@p...> wrote: > >Excellent point, Beck, and by all means do what > >you must to alleviate the pain, according to your > >particular programming. > >But for some of us who arrive at the point of despair, > >who stop kidding ourselves, or as Kierkegaard > >puts it - stop tranquilizing ourselves with triva - > >we have no choice but to face the ordeal, to > >go through the anguish, the fears, alone and with no > >support. > > > >~dave > > Indeed, no choice!! > > --Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 Or maybe nothing happens. Is that what enlightenment is? And of course, to who is enlightenment (or nothing happening) occurring? I don't have a clue ! ~As It Is Indeed, nothing happens. So, how could it be called " enlightenment " ? As nothing happens, how can there be any statement that " nothing happens " ? Saying one doesn't have a clue is very misleading. Saying that something someone said is misleading, is also misleading. Yet, if there is nothing to lead to, there can be no misleading. No one to lead to peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 Here's a serious question. (Reject any instinctive reaction.) What's wrong with suicide, anyway? -mort Nisargadatta, " Omkara " <coresite@h...> wrote: > > There's one point that shouldn't be ignored however... what's to > prevent 'despair' from simply leading to suicide or clinical > depression? :-) > > I can answer this, but am wondering if either of you know. > > Namaste, > > Omkara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 - " Omkara " <coresite <Nisargadatta > Thursday, May 03, 2001 10:38 AM Re: The paradox of effort > There's one point that shouldn't be ignored however... what's to > prevent 'despair' from simply leading to suicide or clinical > depression? :-) > > I can answer this, but am wondering if either of you know. Hiya Tim ....my few bits concerning the two perspectives. I suppose those who stop buying into these numbing consolations and reach this point have no option but to commit 'suicide' - of the pseudo-entity, dissolution of the imaginary and separate being. But this is quite distinct from physical suicide caused by clinical depression. One dude has tasted all that life has to offer, enjoyed it royally, lived life totally but has reached a ceiling, a limit and now finds it lacking, hollow, unsatisfying; the things that were once chased, that were so desirable, attractive and important, are now beginning to turn sour and pale. One is in a crisis of despair and the only solution is 'death', but with no regrets - rather with deep gratitude, offering and thanks for all the artificial or imitation gifts that life's game has provided. On the other hand, another (immature) guy may be driven to commit physical suicide probably as a result of deprived or unfullfilled desires; the fox and the grapes story. ~dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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