Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 Nisargadatta, MSouther@e... wrote: > > I've been thinking lately that significant physical changes must > accompany true enlightenment. > > From my own experience, it seems to me that the shift in > consciousness commonly labeled awakening or enlightenment > cannot last unless there is a corresponding restructuring of the > physical organism as well. > > It's as if an enormous energy or force is required, one that can't > help but show in the physical realm, and may even be rooted in > it. > > Where might this energy come from? I don't know much about > yoga and the kundalini force, etc., but it seems possible, even > likely, that the engine for this transformation has its source in the > generative/sexual centers of the body. Sexual energy/desire is > what powers the manifest universe, and it may need to be > sublimated in some way to power the physical shift necessary > for awakening. > > I'm well aware that this is not a new idea, and that many will > disagree with the notion. > > Yet, when one looks at the history of known awakened masters, > it does seem that this physical shift is a common occurrence. > > U.G. Krishnamurti is probably the foremost example that comes > to mind. Apparently, his " calamity " was preceded and followed > by enormous, bizarre, physical changes in his body. To read his > writings, which contain detailed descriptions of these > astonishing changes, go here: > http://www.well.com/user/jct/index.html > > U.G. seems to consider enlightenment primarily a > physical/biological event. It is non-volitional, more akin to an > evolutionary change or mutation, and certainly not the result of > effort or any practice. > > This is similar to the position of Ramesh Balsekar, though > Balsekar places less emphasis on a biological change and > more on the workings of totality. However, this recent posting > (May 9) from the Net of Jewels list touches on it: > > " For any event to happen an object is needed. So, when > enlightenment is about to happen a body-mind organism is > created in this evolution which is ready to receive that > enlightenment. It is given the characteristics -- physical, mental, > temperamental -- which make that body mind organism capable > of receiving enlightenment. " > > Osho also speaks of extreme physical changes that occurred > both before and after his enlightenment. His body became > incredibly delicate and fragile, existing with only the most > tenuous connection to the world. > > Apparently, Ramana Maharshi is a similar case. > > Does anyone know if something like this happened to Maharaj? > I've not seen any passages in the writings I'm familiar with that > refer to it. > > I'd also be interested in the accounts of any list members who > have gone through noticeable physical changes preceding > and/or following an enlightenment experience. Do you think > such changes prepare or cause such experiences, or do they > simply accompany them? > > Let me know. > > Michael Souther Namaste Michael, I have had those K experiences. It is only the purification of the sheaths taking place, notably the 'Viijnanamayakosa or awarness sheath'. See my talk, it seems the degree of cleansing is in proportion to the amount needed......ONS Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 If one examines the sages -- paradoxically, their forms all look different, their methods of teaching are utterly different, their 'paths' were all very different... some confess physical changes, some do not. Each sages appears as different as each snowflake. So who to turn to? Which of the thousands of sages, teachings, scriptures, which to turn to? The above is wonderful and beneficial, because it means you will have to drop the sages and the scriptures, and find out 'for yourself'! You will have to find what makes the most sense based on 'who you are', and engage in contemplation, meditation or whatever is recommended. You will have to experiment, you will have to follow intuition, learn to trust and depend on intuition and find the Satguru 'within'. You will have to say " I know nothing " and proceed to discover, to walk straight into the unknown. There is no other way. Endless speculating is like spinning in circles. If dizziness is considered enjoyable, it may be 'worthwhile' to stand in place and spin until the body drops :-). Namaste, Tim Nisargadatta, MSouther@e... wrote: > > I've been thinking lately that significant physical changes must > accompany true enlightenment. > > From my own experience, it seems to me that the shift in > consciousness commonly labeled awakening or enlightenment > cannot last unless there is a corresponding restructuring of the > physical organism as well. > > It's as if an enormous energy or force is required, one that can't > help but show in the physical realm, and may even be rooted in > it. > > Where might this energy come from? I don't know much about > yoga and the kundalini force, etc., but it seems possible, even > likely, that the engine for this transformation has its source in the > generative/sexual centers of the body. Sexual energy/desire is > what powers the manifest universe, and it may need to be > sublimated in some way to power the physical shift necessary > for awakening. > > I'm well aware that this is not a new idea, and that many will > disagree with the notion. > > Yet, when one looks at the history of known awakened masters, > it does seem that this physical shift is a common occurrence. > > U.G. Krishnamurti is probably the foremost example that comes > to mind. Apparently, his " calamity " was preceded and followed > by enormous, bizarre, physical changes in his body. To read his > writings, which contain detailed descriptions of these > astonishing changes, go here: > http://www.well.com/user/jct/index.html > > U.G. seems to consider enlightenment primarily a > physical/biological event. It is non-volitional, more akin to an > evolutionary change or mutation, and certainly not the result of > effort or any practice. > > This is similar to the position of Ramesh Balsekar, though > Balsekar places less emphasis on a biological change and > more on the workings of totality. However, this recent posting > (May 9) from the Net of Jewels list touches on it: > > " For any event to happen an object is needed. So, when > enlightenment is about to happen a body-mind organism is > created in this evolution which is ready to receive that > enlightenment. It is given the characteristics -- physical, mental, > temperamental -- which make that body mind organism capable > of receiving enlightenment. " > > Osho also speaks of extreme physical changes that occurred > both before and after his enlightenment. His body became > incredibly delicate and fragile, existing with only the most > tenuous connection to the world. > > Apparently, Ramana Maharshi is a similar case. > > Does anyone know if something like this happened to Maharaj? > I've not seen any passages in the writings I'm familiar with that > refer to it. > > I'd also be interested in the accounts of any list members who > have gone through noticeable physical changes preceding > and/or following an enlightenment experience. Do you think > such changes prepare or cause such experiences, or do they > simply accompany them? > > Let me know. > > Michael Souther Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 Nisargadatta, " D. Sirjue " <dsirju@n...> wrote: > > - > " Tony O'Clery " <aoclery> > <Nisargadatta> > Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:48 PM > Re: Physical changes > > > > I have had those K experiences. > > > Interesting, Tony, does this mean that another hermaphrodite > has joined the show? > I guess at this rate, with so many enlightened beings > around and no procreation taking place, may well mean > the end of human life, a feastive time for the plants and animals ! > > > welcome to doomsday Namaste Dave, K experience------it is just a cleanser really. No big deal most have it but don't recognise it...It doesn't mean one is anywhere near enlightened..ONS > ~dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 Nisargadatta, " D. Sirjue " <dsirju@n...> wrote: > Interesting, Tony, does this mean that another hermaphrodite > has joined the show? > I guess at this rate, with so many enlightened beings > around and no procreation taking place, may well mean > the end of human life, a feastive time for the plants and animals ! Indeed, it would be. No more pollution, no more slaughterhouses, no more environmental destruction, threat of thermonuclear war... the only disharmonious and 'self/other'-destructive creature on the planet, " the human being, " would be no more. > welcome to doomsday > ~dave For whom? :-) Namaste, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 - " Omkara " <coresite <Nisargadatta > Thursday, May 10, 2001 2:24 PM Re: Physical changes Hiya Tim, A few minor pointers while I'm in the writing mood. >If one examines the sages -- >[cut] >Each sages appears as different as each > snowflake. So who to turn to? >Which of the thousands of sages, > teachings, scriptures, which to turn to? ...or do you mean which of the sages to cling to. Is it possible to grasp at transitory snowflakes ? The tighter the grip on snowflakes, the quicker it melts and escapes us but since continued grabbing further numbs the pain caused by frost bites, why allow it to thaw and feel the suffering ? What an absurd game of trying to cling to anything transitory. We violate all the natural laws of this universe - the unitary movement - conceptualized as a process of creation, preservation and destruction. We want to hold on the preservation of the " I " while struggling with the other gods only to pay the price of frustration, even to the point of psychological disorders, mental derangement. No wonder some disturbed person attempts to shoot everyone in sight. Our mad-houses (not to mention the jails) are overflowing with inmates. > > The above is wonderful and beneficial, because it means you will have > to drop the sages and the scriptures, and find out 'for yourself'! ...finding out for yourself occurs when we cease to cling, borrow or steal other peoples belongings whether it's thoughts, ideas or property and copyright laws nowadays when violated carries a hefty penalty, just as impersonating others (which we do all the time while chasing our self-image) carries a heavy fine :-) In other words it occurs when we become truthful about what belongs to me and who I am, (since an (imaginary) identity equates with acquired possessions) or when we stop lying to ourself of who we are, when we stop hiding behind the 'persona'. Does anything really belong to 'me' or are they society's burdens, problem and imprisonment to maintain the status quo, or as Dan expressed so eloquently recently - to maintain and perpetuate the social mind. It must be crystal clear that society's mind is not 'my' mind - it does not belong to me. Society has already imprisoned itself in it's own inventions, it's' own concepts, why add one more to the list ? In fact do I have a mind in the first instance ? ....and suddenly another burden is lifted, released, dissolved into thin air. Was it ever there or was it my imagination ? Wasn't there always the 'feeling' of release, the 'taste' of freedom, of letting go, a feeling of relatedness as the child feels the universe - our uncontaminated natural state before knowledge intervenes-?. Best ~dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 - " Omkara " <coresite <Nisargadatta > Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:14 PM Dave/Re: Physical changes Hiya Tim, > We *are* the persona. Without the persona or " self-image " there is > no " I. " The " I " is " I-dentical " to the persona > (person/personality). There is nobody separate from it to 'stop > hiding from it'. Sure there is nobody (or no-thing) behind the persona, but neither are you the persona nor are you not the persona. The meaning of persona here, as taken from the dictionary, is mask, or facade; but if I may add, it *does* have utility just as a stick has functional use for a blind man. But once the sight is restored, is there a need for the stick ? So the real point here is - there is a *direct* experience, pointed by the sages, of that 'which-is' but symbolic language fails to ever capture or express it. So even if the framed persona arises or does not arise, truly - thou art 'that'. > " Society " is a conceptualized entity. There is no such " real " thing > as society. It's a conditioned concept, existing entirely > in/as 'individual' minds. The " collective " is entirely illusory. Right on, society including the apparent 'individual' are all conceptual framework invented by the same 'I'. What I meant was regardless of where the air I breathe or the thoughts I think originate, they don't belong to 'you'. All I notice is the subsequent reaction of the 'me-entity' wanting to own or clings to certain comfortable thoughts, beliefs, ideas, or knowledge, in order to relieve the pain of it's own activity, its own self-contraction. For argument, I used the most plausible possibility, 'society', but really I don't know from where these thoughts originate, or for that matter, how the contracted 'me-entity' arises in the first place, or even if such an 'entity' exists or does not exist. ... sheer wonder.. In amazement ~dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.