Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Dear Dave, Thanks, Dave. Appreciate what you're sharing here, although this isn't new information. And Ken's confusion about how to explain things may well reflect the " mind that explains things " .... IMHO ... Is there a connection between " the mind that explains things " and the " attraction to an 'avatar' " associated with " being right " and " being in-the-know " ? Could well be ... How then is the " mind that explains things " , which is explaining to itself that " I have a relationship with the Guru " , going to get beyond itself through the " Grace of the Guru " that it is using to provide meaning? The Guru who's self-serving ways of asking " avoiding relationship (with ME)? " are never questioned, for, after all, he is the Guru making ever-wise statements. By the way, in spite of at times clear insight and perhaps intellectual bravado, I doubt that Da's teachings will ever be considered as far-reaching as a Gautama or Jesus (who never had disciples take dictation and publish and market endless volumes of text -- and this seems to me to be Ken's misperception). The " crazier " is the " wisdom " of the Guru, in acting anti-logical or anti-moral -- the more intense the fixation of the devotee who is supposedly being " undermined " (read " misused " ) -- does anyone see the similarity with a typical " dysfunctional family " which necessarily must isolate itself? Can anyone notice " repeating patterns of abuse with the all-correct all-knowing Father Figure " ? Apparently, shifting away from traditional Christianity hasn't quelled that archetypal striving to be ruled by the " Perfect Father " and yes, in some circles, it is the same configuration around the " Perfect Mother " ... The explaining mind must notice how it is reinforcing itself in the process of " intentionally undermining itself " or it will never clarify " its true state " -- By which I mean -- there is no ultimate explanation, no external or internal meaning to hold to, and no Grace nor Self nor self to depend upon ... Namaste, Dan Dear List, It is interesting to read KW's recent remarks concerning the latest (and only) Western (Kalki) Avatar - Adi Da. Have fun. ~dave The Case of Adi Da The last positive statement I made about Da's work was in 1985, when I wrote a very strong endorsement for his major book, The Dawn Horse Testament. This is one of the very greatest spiritual treatises, comparable in scope and depth to any of the truly classic religious texts. I still believe that, and I challenge anybody to argue that specific assessment. The teaching is one thing, the teacher, quite another. By this time (around 1985), things were starting to become very problematic for Da, his personal life, his community, and his teaching in the world. In ways that we are just beginning to understand, some types of spiritual development can run way ahead of moral, social, interpersonal, and wisdom development in general. Da is capable of some truly exquisite insights, but in other areas, he has fared less well, and this has increasingly verged on the catastrophic. It is always sad to see such promise run aground on the rocks of personality problems. As this was becoming increasingly obvious to even his most appreciative students, including me, I did an interview with Yoga Journal (September/Octobers 1987). In that interview, I made my very last public statement about Da. For the next decade, I would publicly say nothing about him whatsoever (until now). Thus, for the last ten years, here has been my official stance these are the last sentences of that statement: " [Da] makes a lot of mistakes. These are immediately reinterpreted as great teaching events, which is silly. And then he gets mad and frustrated and goes into sort of a divine pout ..... Because of these and other difficulties, he has holed up in Fiji, become very isolated and cut off, which I think could be disastrous, for him and for the community. The entire situation has become very problematic. It's real hard to get happy about what's going on. " " Problematic " was the euphemism that sociologists at that time were using for Jonestown. Although few think Da will slide that far, nonetheless, his entire teaching work has indeed become problematic. The great difficulty is that, no matter how " enlightened " you might be, it take s a certain amount of practical wisdom to gauge the effects of your teaching work on the world at large. Crazy wisdom might (or might not) be fine for a few very close and longtime devotees. But it is disastrous when done as a large scale social experiment, which Da did, especially during the " Garbage and the Goddess " period. Anybody who could not see how that experiment would be perceived by the world is simply a damn fool. And an enlightened damn fool is even more culpable. Those events sealed Da's fate in today's world. His teaching work is effectively ended for all but a small handful. And he will never be able to teach in this country, or virtually anywhere else, either, because his past will follow him. It is altogether sad, then, to see him continue to announce that he is the World Teacher. He won't even venture out in to the world! He hides in Fiji, away from the glare, away from the world, away from the truth at large. And he calls us to his little island kingdom, there to save the world. This verges on the grotesque. Is there any chance that Da can rehabilitate himself? His claim, of course, is that he is the most enlightened person in the history of the planet. Just for argument, let us agree. But then what would the most enlightened World Teacher in history actually do in the world? Hide? Avoid? Run? Or would that teacher engage the world, step into the arena of dialogue, meet with other religious teachers and adepts, attempt to start a universal dialogue that would test his truths in the fire of the circle of those who could usefully challenge him. At the very least, a person who claims to be the World Teacher needs to get out in the world, no? This doesn't mean Da would have to attend every conference, give hundreds of lectures, hit the talk-show circuit, etc. It simply means he would at the very least find ways to directly engage or at least meet!--some of the prominent leaders in the fields of religion, politics, science, and administration. As it is, he won't even meet with other leaders, such as the Dalai Lama, unless they become practicing members of his church! Hello? To step out in that fashion requires moral courage. It requires a willingness to engage and respond. It demands a brave heart to stand forth and shine, not just to a few hundred in Fiji, but to an unbelieving world. Until this happens, I can recommend to no one that they take up the isolationist practices of the Daist community. At the same time, this should not prevent us from taking advantage of that part of Da which isn't broken, namely, his clear (if isolated) spiritual writings and insights. If nothing else, his written texts are still an extraordinary source of material. Even if you do nothing but disagree with them, you will at least see a stunning number of ideas and insights and methods, which you can check for yourself and see if they actually work or not. Nor should his personal problems negate these insights. Even if Einstein was a complete psychotic, E still equals mc2. Let us not deny the latter because of the former. We await, then, the day that the World Teacher consents to enter the World. Until that time, it is perhaps best to watch from a safe distance, while availing yourself of those written texts that still manage to shine with a light of their own. Ken Wilber Oct. 11, 1996 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Greetings, What this amounts to is that I am responsible for my consciousness and the consequences of my consciousness. When I try to make someone else responsible for my salvation, realization, liberation then I make that person my authority and I stop doing the work I need to do to grow spiritually. Adi Da actually teaches that and I understand his frustration because very few people " get " what he is communicating. Krishnamurti has the same problem. He is continually speaking and writing " Why are you making me your leader? " Work it out for yourself! Indeed virtually all of the realized masters teach the same thing. " You can do it yourself! " Basically they are saying " Tat twam asi " " That art Thou " . Namaste, John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 What did Adi Da do that has everyone so afraid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Hi John -- There's actually more to it than this. Da is insightful and articulate. I just read something he wrote about fear and contraction that is really on the money. However, anyone who has followed Da's career, and known of people who were with him, know about a pattern of demands for adoration from followers, including sexual kinds of adoration -- and frustration when there is not enough adoration, also drug and alcohol abuse. His teachings year by year have reflected ever-increasing focus on his own personage, Names, and Value ;-) So, there is a split between what is lived and what is projected onto others: your demand for specialness, living as Narcissus, wanting attention, you need to notice and end your separation, etc. -- and what is being lived/acted out by the guru (demand for specialness and adoration, rationalizing desires for stimulation and attention, separating from those who don't validate him enough) ... The double standard is this: when you do it, it's Narcissus -- when I do it, it's " crazy wisdom " .... I agree with you on this: Da is another human being in this circus, a human being with insight and ability to articulate clearly at times, and at other times, not so clear. There is no point in making another human being responsible for my awakening ... for with awakening there is no separable human being, no entity responsible for anything, and no awakening separable from " now " -- as *is* And this unspeakable " now " is not " now " in the usual sense of the word ... Krishnamurti, in his own very different way from Da, had a somewhat similar dynamic -- he implied specialness to himself, even went so far as to set up his own foundation and record his teachings for posterity -- at the same time he said making someone else an authority doesn't work. If you follow his teachings carefully, he very frequently places himself in a superior position of authority ... Perhaps a contradiction is there whenever there is a teaching (or even nonteaching provided) ... There is only " now " ... all any teaching can do is point to " now " , which can't be pointed to ... so no teaching or nonteaching is " here " ... There is no one responsible for this " now " which is the same thing as " clarity " or " awake " .... No Krishnamurti or Da or me or you is " here " ... there is only " here " ... no other (hence no self who can " do it yourself " ) ... The teaching " You are That " is useful only to the point where concepts of " you " and " That " have no applicability .... Namaste, Dan Greetings, What this amounts to is that I am responsible for my consciousness and the consequences of my consciousness. When I try to make someone else responsible for my salvation, realization, liberation then I make that person my authority and I stop doing the work I need to do to grow spiritually. Adi Da actually teaches that and I understand his frustration because very few people " get " what he is communicating. Krishnamurti has the same problem. He is continually speaking and writing " Why are you making me your leader? " Work it out for yourself! Indeed virtually all of the realized masters teach the same thing. " You can do it yourself! " Basically they are saying " Tat twam asi " " That art Thou " . Namaste, John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Da definitely has said some worthwhile things. His escapades aren't frightening -- he's somewhat adventurous and creative, more than a bit full of himself, silly at times -- has hurt some people, has helped some, too, for sure -- and life goes on ... Maybe someday it will make a good " movie of the week " , who knows? ... No problem with Da here ... just appreciating the drama of it all, and having a laugh ... Dan What did Adi Da do that has everyone so afraid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 At 08:53 AM 7/1/01 -0700, you wrote: Daniel Berkow wrote: > > Hi John -- > > There's actually more to it than this. > > Da is insightful and articulate. > I just read something he wrote > about fear and contraction that is > really on the money. > **** Yep. > However, anyone who has followed > Da's career, and known of people > who were with him, know about > a pattern of demands for adoration > from followers, including sexual > kinds of adoration -- and frustration > when there is not enough adoration, > also drug and alcohol abuse. His teachings > year by year have reflected ever-increasing > focus on his own personage, Names, > and Value ;-) > ******* Yes, I agree that is what is happening, BUT, from my own personal experience with the man, that was not the case. In fact it was just the opposite. He couldn't have loved nor given me more. Judi %%%%%%%%%%%%% Memories, like the corners of my mind. Distant water-color memories, of the way we were ... ;-) Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Daniel Berkow wrote: > > At 08:53 AM 7/1/01 -0700, you wrote: > > Daniel Berkow wrote: > > > > Hi John -- > > > > There's actually more to it than this. > > > > Da is insightful and articulate. > > I just read something he wrote > > about fear and contraction that is > > really on the money. > > > **** Yep. > > > However, anyone who has followed > > Da's career, and known of people > > who were with him, know about > > a pattern of demands for adoration > > from followers, including sexual > > kinds of adoration -- and frustration > > when there is not enough adoration, > > also drug and alcohol abuse. His teachings > > year by year have reflected ever-increasing > > focus on his own personage, Names, > > and Value ;-) > > > ******* > Yes, I agree that is what is happening, BUT, from my own > personal > experience with the man, that was not the case. In fact it > was just > the opposite. He couldn't have loved nor given me more. > > Judi > > %%%%%%%%%%%%% > > Memories, like the corners of my mind. > Distant water-color memories, of the way > we were ... > > ;-) > > Dan > ***** Make me cry will you? You'll pay for that! :-) -- Happy Days, Judi http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm TheEndOfTheRopeRanch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2001 Report Share Posted July 2, 2001 ***** Make me cry will you? You'll pay for that! :-) -- Happy Days, Judi Laugh or cry, it's only love and nothing else ... Payin' dues, Walkin' blues, Not gonna choose, Nothin' ta lose, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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