die to live (continued), the control of thoughts & meditation

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the clarification John.

 

Just to expand on the theme of what you have tried to say, here is a

dialogue that people here could find meaningful. The K in this

dialogue is J. Krishnamurti.

 

-------------------

 

K: Is it possible to live without control? Because what is the

control? And who is controller? The controller is the controlled.

When I say I must control my thought, the controller is the creation

of thought. And thought controls thought. It has no meaning. One

fragment controls another fragment, and yet therefore remain

fragments. So I say, is there a way of living without control?

Therefore no conflict. Therefore no opposites. Not one desire against

another desire. One thought opposed to another thought. One

achievement opposed to another achievement. So, no control. Is that

possible? Because I must find out. You follow, sir? It's not just ask

a question, just leaving it alone. I've got energy now because I am

not carrying their burden anymore. Nor am I carrying my own burden.

Because their burden is my burden. When I have discarded that I have

discarded this. So I have got energy when I say is it possible to

live without control. And so it is a tremendous thing. I must find

out. Because the people who have control, they have said through

control you arrive at Nirvana, heaven - to me that's wrong, totally

absurd. So I say, can I live a life of meditation in which there is

no control?

 

A: When intelligence breaks out, as we looked at before, then with it

comes order and that order...

 

K: Intelligence is order.

 

A: And intelligence is that order. The seeing is the doing.

 

K: The doing, yes.

 

A: Therefore there is no conflict at all.

 

K: You see, therefore do I live a life, not only is it possible, do I

live it? I've got desires: I see a car, a woman, a house, a lovely

garden, beautiful clothes, or whatever it is, instantly all the

desires arise. And not to have a conflict. And yet not yield. If I

have money I go and buy it. Which is obvious. That's no answer. If I

have no money I say, " Well, I'm so sorry. I have no money. And I will

get sometime, someday. Then I'll come back and buy it. " It's the same

problem. But the desire is aroused. The seeing, contact, sensation

and desire. Now that desire is there, and to cut it off is to

suppress it. To control it is to suppress it. To yield to it is

another form of fragmenting life into getting and losing. I don't

know if I?

 

A: Yes, yes, yes.

 

K: So to allow for the flowering of desire without control. You

understand, sir?

 

A: Yes, I do.

 

K: So the very flowering is the very ending of that desire. But if

you chop it off it'll come back again. I don't know?

 

A: Yes, yes. It's the difference between a terminus and a

consummation.

 

K: Quite, yes. So I let the desire come, flower, watch it. Watch it,

not yield or resist. Just let it flower. And be fully aware of what

is happening. Then there is no control.

 

A: And no disorder.

 

K: No, of course. The moment you control there is disorder. Because

you are suppressing or accepting - you know, all the rest of it. So

that is disorder. But when you allow the thing to flower and watch

it, watch it in the sense be totally aware of it - the petals, the

subtle forms of desire to possess, not to possess, to possess is a

pleasure, not to possess is a pleasure, you follow? - the whole of

that movement of desire.

-------------------

 

 

 

 

 

Nisargadatta, " logos292 " <logos292@h...> wrote:

> To die to the habit of following thought, does not in any way

imply,

> that we must control the thoughts, with a sence of doership. once

> you try to control the mind with a sence of doership...you are back

> in time again. We must simply LOOK,(watch), the thoughts that

> arise, and they will disappear. time and mind are inseperable,

> remove time from the mind, and it stops.

>

> john

[Guest guest]

So, then -- setting up a foundation named after yourself,

to make sure the words you've spoken are heard

for generations in their original

order and correctly attributed,

isn't about control?

 

Dan

 

 

 

> Thank you for the clarification John.

>

> Just to expand on the theme of what you have tried to say, here is

a

> dialogue that people here could find meaningful. The K in this

> dialogue is J. Krishnamurti.

>

> -------------------

>

> K: Is it possible to live without control? Because what is the

> control? And who is controller? The controller is the controlled.

> When I say I must control my thought, the controller is the

creation

> of thought. And thought controls thought. It has no meaning. One

> fragment controls another fragment, and yet therefore remain

> fragments. So I say, is there a way of living without control?

> Therefore no conflict. Therefore no opposites. Not one desire

against

> another desire. One thought opposed to another thought. One

> achievement opposed to another achievement. So, no control. Is that

> possible? Because I must find out. You follow, sir? It's not just

ask

> a question, just leaving it alone. I've got energy now because I am

> not carrying their burden anymore. Nor am I carrying my own burden.

> Because their burden is my burden. When I have discarded that I

have

> discarded this. So I have got energy when I say is it possible to

> live without control. And so it is a tremendous thing. I must find

> out. Because the people who have control, they have said through

> control you arrive at Nirvana, heaven - to me that's wrong, totally

> absurd. So I say, can I live a life of meditation in which there is

> no control?

>

> A: When intelligence breaks out, as we looked at before, then with

it

> comes order and that order...

>

> K: Intelligence is order.

>

> A: And intelligence is that order. The seeing is the doing.

>

> K: The doing, yes.

>

> A: Therefore there is no conflict at all.

>

> K: You see, therefore do I live a life, not only is it possible, do

I

> live it? I've got desires: I see a car, a woman, a house, a lovely

> garden, beautiful clothes, or whatever it is, instantly all the

> desires arise. And not to have a conflict. And yet not yield. If I

> have money I go and buy it. Which is obvious. That's no answer. If

I

> have no money I say, " Well, I'm so sorry. I have no money. And I

will

> get sometime, someday. Then I'll come back and buy it. " It's the

same

> problem. But the desire is aroused. The seeing, contact, sensation

> and desire. Now that desire is there, and to cut it off is to

> suppress it. To control it is to suppress it. To yield to it is

> another form of fragmenting life into getting and losing. I don't

> know if I?

>

> A: Yes, yes, yes.

>

> K: So to allow for the flowering of desire without control. You

> understand, sir?

>

> A: Yes, I do.

>

> K: So the very flowering is the very ending of that desire. But if

> you chop it off it'll come back again. I don't know?

>

> A: Yes, yes. It's the difference between a terminus and a

> consummation.

>

> K: Quite, yes. So I let the desire come, flower, watch it. Watch

it,

> not yield or resist. Just let it flower. And be fully aware of what

> is happening. Then there is no control.

>

> A: And no disorder.

>

> K: No, of course. The moment you control there is disorder. Because

> you are suppressing or accepting - you know, all the rest of it. So

> that is disorder. But when you allow the thing to flower and watch

> it, watch it in the sense be totally aware of it - the petals, the

> subtle forms of desire to possess, not to possess, to possess is a

> pleasure, not to possess is a pleasure, you follow? - the whole of

> that movement of desire.

> -------------------

>

>

>

>

>

> Nisargadatta, " logos292 " <logos292@h...> wrote:

> > To die to the habit of following thought, does not in any way

> imply,

> > that we must control the thoughts, with a sence of doership.

once

> > you try to control the mind with a sence of doership...you are

back

> > in time again. We must simply LOOK,(watch), the thoughts that

> > arise, and they will disappear. time and mind are inseperable,

> > remove time from the mind, and it stops.

> >

> > john