Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 (This is my response to someone who asked about this subject. El) There seems to be x-disciples, of various gurus, who are conflicted about some sexual practices of these gurus. I haven't seen where anyone writes about how to use 'what one sees' in these gurus to one's advantage...on the path. As adults there is a easy way to deal with this. In one's own closet. By oneself. By using these gurus as a mirror to reflect back to oneself what grubbly little child molestors we are. For example, take an honest look at your husband or wife or various sex partners throughout your life, and you may be, or may not be, surprised to discover they were nothing but big 'retarded little children'. See how you used them, manipulated them, took advantage of them, for your own little piggy gratification and/or purposes. No matter that they may have asked for it. It doesn't change the fact that you are just as much a 'child molestor' as this guru was/is that you may be conflicted about. Some nicer folks may not have acted out all their lustful little fantasies or may have just jacked off in a corner or even prayed in a corner, but if they are honest w/themselves, they will see it there. 2 cats in the alley in heat on a fence aren't molestors. They don't live from " the inherited mind of man " that is constantly at war with it's natural animal instincts. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2002 Report Share Posted April 29, 2002 Dear El, I was surprised to read your post. Maybe I am missing something. I am sure you realize that there is a huge difference between manipulating adults and child molestation. By the definition of the word " adult " they're at a biological stage to be able to give consent. I live in Boston and recently the Boston Catholic church is shaken with sexual crises. It seems that for years the Archdiocese of Boston covered up sexual misconduct by priests. The public outrage is not so much for the fact that celibate priests had sex but they had sex with children. The children's parents trusted the priests and they abused this trust. Similarly, the Guru appears as the Beloved to the seeker. This love gives the Guru tremendous power over his/her followers. Whether they're the adult followers or their children, with this power Gurus have responsibilities to their devotees. The Guru's job is to help the lover (the seeker) to realize that there is no lover, no beloved (Guru) but only love and his/her true identity is love itself. The seeker is not giving this power to the Guru in order to be manipulated sexually. If the Guru abuses this power, sooner or later, the Guru will discredit himself/herself. Hur Nisargadatta, " elizabeth_wells2001 " <elizabeth_wells2001> wrote: > > > (This is my response to someone > who asked about this subject. El) > > > There seems to be x-disciples, > of various gurus, > who are conflicted about some sexual practices of these > gurus. > > I haven't seen where anyone writes about > how to use 'what one sees' in these gurus > to one's advantage...on the path. > > As adults there is a easy way to deal with this. > In one's own closet. > By oneself. > By using these gurus as a mirror to reflect back > to oneself what grubbly little child molestors > we are. > > For example, take an honest look at your husband > or wife or various sex partners throughout your > life, > > and you may be, or may not be, surprised to > discover they were nothing but > big 'retarded little children'. > > See how you used them, manipulated them, > took advantage of them, > for your own little piggy gratification and/or > purposes. > > No matter that they may have asked for it. > It doesn't change the fact that you are just > as much a 'child molestor' as this guru was/is > that you may be conflicted about. > > Some nicer folks may not have > acted out all their lustful little fantasies > or may have just jacked off in a corner > or even prayed in a corner, but > if they are honest w/themselves, > they will see it there. > > 2 cats in the alley in heat on a fence aren't molestors. > > They don't live from " the inherited mind of man " > that is constantly at war with it's natural animal > instincts. > > . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2002 Report Share Posted April 29, 2002 Nisargadatta, " hurg " <hurg> wrote: > Dear El, > > I was surprised to read your post. Maybe I am missing something. I > am sure you realize that there is a huge difference between > manipulating adults and child molestation. By the definition of the > word " adult " they're at a biological stage to be able to give > consent. > > I live in Boston and recently the Boston Catholic church is shaken > with sexual crises. It seems that for years the Archdiocese of > Boston covered up sexual misconduct by priests. The public outrage > is not so much for the fact that celibate priests had sex but they > had sex with children. The children's parents trusted the priests > and they abused this trust. > > Similarly, the Guru appears as the Beloved to the seeker. This love > gives the Guru tremendous power over his/her followers. Whether > they're the adult followers or their children, with this power Gurus > have responsibilities to their devotees. The Guru's job is to help > the lover (the seeker) to realize that there is no lover, no beloved > (Guru) but only love and his/her true identity is love itself. The > seeker is not giving this power to the Guru in order to be > manipulated sexually. If the Guru abuses this power, sooner or > later, the Guru will discredit himself/herself. > > Hur ------------------------ Hur, I am well aware of the Catholic Problem. Long long ago I had a brother they destroyed. And a sister. I was raised by people who only believed priest and nun lies, seeing them as god's representatives on earth who could do no wrong. I refused to go along with " the program " , or shut up about it. I was disowned by my family, threatened by the powers that be, and washed my hands of the whole schmere and walked away at 16. However, this is not what my post on Child Molestors is about. By all means, raise hell like I did and burn the son of a bitches, or daughters of a bitches. And when you have 'that' out of your system, if you are on the 'path', and an adult, not a teenager or less, -----------use 'what one sees' (be it real or imagined) in these gurus to one's advantage...on the path---------- in short REALLY GROW UP. El .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2002 Report Share Posted April 29, 2002 Hur, if you are into this " lover and beloved " and are an adult and really can't smell shit from shinola, do yourself a favor and avoid live gurus and buy a book. El Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2002 Report Share Posted April 29, 2002 El, I am not talking about things as they " should be " but as " they are. " This is not an esoteric advaita debate but how things function in the social world. It makes no difference whether I believe in the appearance of the lover (the seeker, worshipper, me) or the Beloved (God, guru, priests, representatives of God). I am simply pointing to the fact that when the divine beloved appears as a guru/priest to the seeker and if the guru manipulates his adult followers into having sex, this is called abuse of power. The seeker submits out of spiritual love, not expecting to be made love on the physical level! Up to this point I can see the relative morality of the issue but there cannot even be debate on the child molestation cases for the simple fact that children cannot give consent. I was outraged today when I read that Cardinal Law in Boston shifted the responsibility to the victims. Basically he said that negligence by the alleged victims contributed to the case. The cardinal's claim is a boilerplate moral defense but arguments like this in sensitive child molestation cases shows poor judgment. Hur Nisargadatta, " elizabeth_wells2001 " <elizabeth_wells2001> wrote: > > Hur, > > if you are into this " lover and beloved " > and are an adult and really can't > smell shit from shinola, > > do yourself a favor and avoid live gurus > and buy a book. > > El Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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