Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 I'm new to the non-dualist teaching and want to learn about it at a " live " forum as this before pursuing. I've the feeling that the INTENTION of some seekers is to " beat death " and that is why they do self-inquiry: to learn to attach their awareness to an abstract entity which they believe will live for ever? Do you non-dualists take the teachings verbatim eg. ego-death means death? -isn't this gross misunderstanding of the teachings? I found this post at a Ramana club; I think it talks about ego-death, but there it was in a tread, that it's meaning was different and the above question came to me again; the same person who posted this also sated that Ramana is alive... POST: " Yesterday a Swami came and sat in the hall. He seemed anxious to speak to Bhagavan but hesitant. After some time he approached him and said: " Swami, it is said that Atma is all-pervading. Does that mean that it is in a dead body also? " " Oho! So that is what you want to know? " Bhagavan rejoined. " And did the question occur to the dead body or to you? " " To me, " he said. " When you are asleep do you question whether you exist or not? " Bhagavan continued. " It is only after you wake up that you say you exist. In the dream-state also Atma exists. Really there is no such thing as a dead or living body. What does not move we call dead, and what has movement we call living. In dreams you see any number of bodies, living and dead, but they have no existence when you wake up. In the same way this whole world, animate and inanimate, is non-existent. Death means the dissolution of the ego, and rebirth the birth of the ego. There are births and deaths, but they are of the ego, not of you. You exist whether the sense of ego is there or not. You are its source but are not that sense. Mukti (Liberation) means finding the origin of these births and deaths and destroying the very roots of the ego-sense. That is Mukti. It means dying with full awareness. If one dies thus one is born again immediately at the same place with full knowledge of the Self, known as " Aham Aham " (I-I). One who is born thus has no more doubts. " ~Karta~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Nisargadatta, " satkartar5 " <mi_nok> wrote: > I'm new to the non-dualist teaching and want > to learn about it at a " live " forum as this before pursuing. I've been at 2 Groups for a couple of months and the one you mentioned for perhaps a week. The groups vary as per the type of personalities that contribute and the adherence to or citation of Text and sayings. when contributors cite various contemporaries/disciples or when they express Nondualism in their own lingo, the threads seem more ecletic, less literal. Sometimes, less authoritative and more fanciful. >I've the feeling that the INTENTION > of some seekers is to " beat death " and that is why they do self- inquiry: to learn > to attach their awareness to an abstract entity which they believe will > live for ever. That has not been my perception of their INTENTION. Would not it be easy to Ask them what their intentions were? Actually, it isn't very easy, since like me, you are really Concerned about what your Intentions are. And really, what else is there to be concerned about? Thus the objective of Self-Enquiry. To unearth, by asking, " who am I " that wants to know about some others' intentions, " who am I " that is joining Groups, being repelled by literalism and do those interests change? That which changes is transistory and unstable. For me, the self-enquiry my ongoing process of discovering Reality. The Reality is not outside of me. > > Do you non-dualists take the teachings > verbatim eg. ego-death means death? > -isn't this gross misunderstanding of > the teachings? Never really looked at that like that. I is eternal, in the Present, everlasting, nondying. be well cj > > I found this post at a Ramana club; I > think it talks about ego-death, but > there it was in a tread, that it's > meaning was different and the above > question came to me again; the same > person who posted this also sated > that Ramana is alive... > > POST: > > " Yesterday a Swami came and sat in the > hall. He seemed anxious to speak to > Bhagavan but hesitant. After some time > he approached him and said: > " Swami, it is said that Atma is all-pervading. > Does that mean that it is in a dead body > also? " > > " Oho! So that is what you want to know? " Bhagavan rejoined. > > " And did the question occur to the dead > body or to you? " > > " To me, " he said. > > " When you are asleep do you question > whether you exist or not? " > Bhagavan continued. > > " It is only after you wake up that you > say you exist. In the dream-state also > Atma exists. Really there is no such > thing as a dead or living body. > > What does not move we call dead, > and what has movement we call living. > In dreams you see any number > of bodies, living and dead, but they have > no existence when you wake up. In the > same way this whole world, > animate and inanimate, is non-existent. > > Death means the dissolution of the > ego, and rebirth the birth of the ego. > There are births and deaths, but they > are of the ego, not of you. You exist > whether the sense of ego is there or > not. You are its source but are not > that sense. > > Mukti (Liberation) means finding the > origin of these births and deaths and > destroying the very roots of the > ego-sense. That is Mukti. It means > dying with full awareness. > If one dies thus one is born again > immediately at the same place with full > knowledge of the Self, known as > > " Aham Aham " (I-I). One who is born thus > has no more doubts. " > > ~Karta~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 If you are inquiring so as to get something, you aren't inquiring -- you are repeating the known. If you are inquiring because someone else told you about a realization that can be had, and you inquire so as to have that realization, you're simply going after a self-created image in your mind. Mind and body dropped is the end of inquiry. Its end is here, before it begins. Inquiry is not a process. It is its own ending, before beginning. Namaste, Dan Nisargadatta, " satkartar5 " <mi_nok> wrote: > I'm new to the non-dualist teaching and want > to learn about it at a " live " forum as this before pursuing. I've the feeling that the INTENTION > of some seekers is to " beat death " and that is why they do self- inquiry: to learn > to attach their awareness to an abstract entity which they believe will > live for ever? > > Do you non-dualists take the teachings > verbatim eg. ego-death means death? > -isn't this gross misunderstanding of > the teachings? > > I found this post at a Ramana club; I > think it talks about ego-death, but > there it was in a tread, that it's > meaning was different and the above > question came to me again; the same > person who posted this also sated > that Ramana is alive... > > POST: > > " Yesterday a Swami came and sat in the > hall. He seemed anxious to speak to > Bhagavan but hesitant. After some time > he approached him and said: > " Swami, it is said that Atma is all-pervading. > Does that mean that it is in a dead body > also? " > > " Oho! So that is what you want to know? " Bhagavan rejoined. > > " And did the question occur to the dead > body or to you? " > > " To me, " he said. > > " When you are asleep do you question > whether you exist or not? " > Bhagavan continued. > > " It is only after you wake up that you > say you exist. In the dream-state also > Atma exists. Really there is no such > thing as a dead or living body. > > What does not move we call dead, > and what has movement we call living. > In dreams you see any number > of bodies, living and dead, but they have > no existence when you wake up. In the > same way this whole world, > animate and inanimate, is non-existent. > > Death means the dissolution of the > ego, and rebirth the birth of the ego. > There are births and deaths, but they > are of the ego, not of you. You exist > whether the sense of ego is there or > not. You are its source but are not > that sense. > > Mukti (Liberation) means finding the > origin of these births and deaths and > destroying the very roots of the > ego-sense. That is Mukti. It means > dying with full awareness. > If one dies thus one is born again > immediately at the same place with full > knowledge of the Self, known as > > " Aham Aham " (I-I). One who is born thus > has no more doubts. " > > ~Karta~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Nisargadatta, " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > If you are inquiring so as to get something, > you aren't inquiring -- you are repeating > the known. > > If you are inquiring because someone else told you > about a realization that can be had, and you > inquire so as to have that realization, you're > simply going after a self-created image in your > mind. > > Mind and body dropped is the end of inquiry. > > Its end is here, before it begins. > > Inquiry is not a process. Well hold on Dan, my friend,...to take from another " practitioner " (Douglas Harding interviewed by K. Pillay) KP: There is a kind of paradox, isn't there, that one has to practise to be what one is naturally? DH: Yes—well you practise to really get rid of the illusion—not to achieve the Reality. KP: Yes, that is a very important point, because in the spiritual supermarket that has mushroomed over the last 20–25 years, there seems to be a constant movement to achieve some extraordinary state, and you're directly the opposite. Would you not say that we're really practising only to remove the illusion? DH: That's right. All of us are living from this. Ramana kept saying everyone's living from this—everyone's enlightened. Everyone is firmly stationed—where else could they be but in natural nature—and the only difference between himself and others is that he enjoyed it and others ignored it. It's not any different C J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Nisargadatta, " d_agenda2000 " <d_agenda2000> wrote: > Nisargadatta, " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > If you are inquiring so as to get something, > > you aren't inquiring -- you are repeating > > the known. > > > > If you are inquiring because someone else told you > > about a realization that can be had, and you > > inquire so as to have that realization, you're > > simply going after a self-created image in your > > mind. > > > > Mind and body dropped is the end of inquiry. > > > > Its end is here, before it begins. > > > > Inquiry is not a process. > > Well hold on Dan, my friend,...to take from another " practitioner " > (Douglas Harding interviewed by K. Pillay) > > > KP: There is a kind of paradox, isn't there, that one has to practise > to be what one is naturally? > DH: Yes—well you practise to really get rid of the illusion—not to > achieve the Reality. > > KP: Yes, that is a very important point, because in the spiritual > supermarket that has mushroomed over the last 20–25 years, there > seems to be a constant movement to achieve some extraordinary state, > and you're directly the opposite. Would you not say that we're really > practising only to remove the illusion? > > DH: That's right. All of us are living from this. Ramana kept saying > everyone's living from this—everyone's enlightened. Everyone is > firmly stationed—where else could they be but in natural nature—and > the only difference between himself and others is that he enjoyed it > and others ignored it. It's not any different > > > C J Hi CJ -- Enjoyed your response ... There is only reality, no illusion. So, ultimately, the sense of a barrier between self and truth is the illusion, the basis of all illusions. If you are practicing to relinquish illusions, at what point is it noticed that the practice itself requires there to be illusion? Some who have noticed this immediately jump to the erroneous conclusion, " then, I'm already enlightened, and I just won't do anything or have any practice. " No -- the persistent thought that " I'm already enlightened " is a barrier -- it implies some need to keep that thought there. The persistent idea that there is " nothing to practice and no need for practice " is likewise a barrier -- otherwise, why would there be any concern about being for or against whatever is called " practicing " ... And yet, in truth, there is no barrier. Regarding Ramana -- thanks for that laugh -- there is no " he " to enjoy anything. Nothing is out of place. Each leaf falls from each tree at exactly the time it is to fall. Love and namaste, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 If you already meditate 18 hours a day, I wonder if you are doing a concentrated meditation or if you are resting in awareness and becoming aware of your thinking and returning to awareness? To practice a Vipassana style meditation, or mindfulness, your self- centered dream ought to melt so that your naturally compassionate self can shine forth. I think this " Who Am I " is a sort of Koan meditation that may bring an enlightenment experience, as will any form of meditation. The problem is that you could continue to get lost in your self=centered thinking fairy tales. If you see through them and slowly realize the garbage of the self=centered thinking that steals your awareness, then you have a chance of growing in awareness, or lessening of the self=centered thinking. In order to continue seeing through your stuff, and hterefore dropping it, an intelligent Vipassana style practice may help. Anyway, that is what I do, just continue returning to the present and labeling the thinking.... I like the teachings of Charlotte Joko Beck. Henepola Gunaratna also has an excellent book on Vipassana, but Beck's material really explains the practice process ... in her two books on Zen. If you want to have an enlightenment experience, that is one thing, but to be able to grow and live in it most of the time, I know I need an intelligent practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 thank you Bonzai, I'll check out what you say. All I want is someone (I like here <grin>) to tell me HOW TO PRACTICE! ~k~ Ps. now I can't meditate Sant Mat style... ----- Bonzai: If you already meditate 18 hours a day, I wonder if you are doing a concentrated meditation or if you are resting in awareness and becoming aware of your thinking and returning to awareness? To practice a Vipassana style meditation, or mindfulness, your self- centered dream ought to melt so that your naturally compassionate self can shine forth. I think this " Who Am I " is a sort of Koan meditation that may bring an enlightenment experience, as will any form of meditation. The problem is that you could continue to get lost in your self=centered thinking fairy tales. If you see through them and slowly realize the garbage of the self=centered thinking that steals your awareness, then you have a chance of growing in awareness, or lessening of the self=centered thinking. In order to continue seeing through your stuff, and hterefore dropping it, an intelligent Vipassana style practice may help. Anyway, that is what I do, just continue returning to the present and labeling the thinking.... I like the teachings of Charlotte Joko Beck. Henepola Gunaratna also has an excellent book on Vipassana, but Beck's material really explains the practice process ... in her two books on Zen. If you want to have an enlightenment experience, that is one thing, but to be able to grow and live in it most of the time, I know I need an intelligent practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2002 Report Share Posted June 21, 2002 thank you Bonzai!, <smile> I've faith in the cyber-spirit, but was hoping I don't have to join an other cult, or be initiated again, but get some instruction on the Net.. I think I'm under Ching Hai's grace again. we were meditating in India in 87 as Hui she was a 24 hour meditatior and She used to tell me about her intense, rigoruos Buddhist meditations with no sleep etc., now I'm reminded how important the 8 precepts are. Bondzai, I'm also looking for the name of my Buddhist intiation I received in the eighties to the upcomming Buddha with 5 names and to hold my hand folded during meditation and the eye of t= he hurrican was mentoned. (I can't mention the 5 secret names the last is mi-da.) This was at a family's private home and I lost touch with them. do you know off such line of Buddhism? ~k~ VIPASSANA (mindfulness) I. First ask yourself: " Why do I wish to meditate ? " What do I wish to gain by it ? " " What is my aim as regards my Life and my Developmewnt ? " II. Observe the eight precepts (during retreat¿): 1. refrain from killing living creatures 2. taking what is not given 3. unchaste conduct. 4. false speech. 5. avoid intoxicants 6. eating outside the time. 7. no entertainments, beautifying 8. simple sleeping-place. Vipassana Meditation begins with Mindfulness by which one observes and registers one of the four objects of = Mindfulness which at the same time are the objects of Meditation : bodily functions, feelings, mental functions, and mental objects or images, one after the other, taking as one's object whatever is most conspicuous at the moment. With the essential determination or energy in pursuing observation and registration, fewer and fewer object= s will arise until one only is left, on which the concentrated mind rests steadily and peacefully. This may be followed by higher stages which the meditator has to find out for himself, by experience. " Meditating is like swimming against the strong current of a river, as soon= as one relaxes for a second one loses ground and gets driven back to where = one came from. Only if one exerts oneself to the utmost can one reach the aim. " Nisargadatta, " Bondzai " <bondzai> wrote: > If you already meditate 18 hours a day, I wonder if you are doing a > concentrated meditation or if you are resting in awareness and > becoming aware of your thinking and returning to awareness? > > To practice a Vipassana style meditation, or mindfulness, your self- > centered dream ought to melt so that your naturally compassionate > self can shine forth. I think this " Who Am I " is a sort of Koan > meditation that may bring an enlightenment experience, as will any > form of meditation. The problem is that you could continue to get > lost in your self=centered thinking fairy tales. If you see through > them and slowly realize the garbage of the self=centered thinking > that steals your awareness, then you have a chance of growing in > awareness, or lessening of the self=centered thinking. In order to > continue seeing through your stuff, and hterefore dropping it, an > intelligent Vipassana style practice may help. Anyway, that is what > I do, just continue returning to the present and labeling the > thinking.... > > I like the teachings of Charlotte Joko Beck. Henepola Gunaratna also > has an excellent book on Vipassana, but Beck's material really > explains the practice process ... in her two books on Zen. > > If you want to have an enlightenment experience, that is one thing, > but to be able to grow and live in it most of the time, I know I need > an intelligent practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2002 Report Share Posted June 21, 2002 Hi, Yes, I don't want to get involved in any more cults either. I have been in enough of them myself. I do like the Zen Practice as discussed in " Being Zen " and also in Charlotte Joko Beck's books. Being Zen is really good and simple. No Sanskrit Required! It goes into witness consciousness etc.... The Charlotte Joko Beck books are also very understandable without any sort of 'lingo' . I like reading them because they are 'Only' on practice and not on any philosophy or precepts... Because they are on practice, whenever I read them, I realize I need to practice. Heres a good book on practice, no cult or religion involved, not even Buddhism: Being Zen, by Ezra Bayda http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1570628564/qid=1024685609/sr=2- 1/ref=sr_2_1/104-3922791-9486347 and two more good books: Charlotte Joko Beck: Everyday Zen; Love and Work http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060607343/qid=1024685705/sr=2- 1/ref=sr_2_1/104-3922791-9486347 and, Nothing Special; Living Zen http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0062511173/qid=1024685705/sr=2- 2/ref=sr_2_2/104-3922791-9486347 and here is a good website: http://www.prairiezen.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2002 Report Share Posted June 21, 2002 Bonzai, The following is but my opinion : 1) Behind the practice is the ri(spirit) of meditation, so the philosophy and the guru's insight might not be absolutely irrelevant. 2) I have read the books mentioned which are good accounts of living the Zen talk. 3) So long as there is a Bonzai/Karta to practice ,the cage of samsara remains locked. Practitioners expect that the paths spiral , converging into dissolutionof the " you " into THAT. Practice will but take you in perfectly circular paths that loop ad infinitum. Causality ( as in a practice executed towards peace/satori) can never take you to THAT but only away from it. The funny part is , neither will not trying , so while waiting for the " tiger to close it's jaws " , might as well as take the plunge :-) Namaste, ----- Anand ______________________ Want to sell your car? advertise on Autos Classifieds. It's Free!! visit http://in.autos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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