Guest guest Posted July 27, 2002 Report Share Posted July 27, 2002 Hi Clive, Re: " The Tao of Chaos " by S. Wolinsky another quote: " To paraphrase, my teacher Nisargadatta Maharaj it (that no states are permanent) up this way: " Before you were born there was Nothing absolutely. Then Nothing condensed and became a consciousness called " I am " and what you call " You " arose. At some point this consciousness will become nothing again. This that you call you is a sample of this universal consciousness which is the absolute nothing " . d_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2002 Report Share Posted July 27, 2002 Absolutely Nothing, Not Even The Idea Of Absolutely Nothing. El .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2002 Report Share Posted July 28, 2002 As Nothing, (not even the idea of Nothing), I am Everything. SNM .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2002 Report Share Posted July 28, 2002 Thanks. Sorry I didn't spot this message for me, when i sent out the reminder. So why do you think the "universal consciousness" is called "nothing"? Is it because it is no thing? To say "nothing" is capable of condensing seems odd. Clive - d_agenda2000 Nisargadatta Sunday, July 28, 2002 3:37 PM Re: On nothing, The Tao of Chaos - Clive Hi Clive,Re: "The Tao of Chaos" by S. Wolinskyanother quote:"To paraphrase, my teacher Nisargadatta Maharaj it (that no states are permanent) up this way:"Before you were born there was Nothing absolutely. Then Nothing condensed and became a consciousness called "I am" and what you call "You" arose. At some point this consciousness will become nothing again. This that you call you is a sample of this universal consciousness which is the absolute nothing".d_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2002 Report Share Posted July 28, 2002 Nisargadatta, " Clive Elwell " <jevans@t...> wrote: > Thanks. Sorry I didn't spot this message for me, when i sent out the reminder. > > So why do you think the " universal consciousness " is called " nothing " ? > Is it because it is no thing? > > To say " nothing " is capable of condensing seems odd. > Clive Quite so. It doesn't really condense. There is the conceptuality that something has become, and a foreground has emerged from a background. Such conceptuality not involving any real condensation, merely the idea that such could have occurred. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2002 Report Share Posted July 28, 2002 This seems to lead back to the point where i joined the group and asked about creating worlds. Are you saying that the idea that it has occured (ie the "condensing") actually makes it happen? Clive - dan330033 Nisargadatta Monday, July 29, 2002 10:28 AM Re: On nothing, The Tao of Chaos - Clive Nisargadatta, "Clive Elwell" <jevans@t...> wrote:> Thanks. Sorry I didn't spot this message for me, when i sent out the reminder.> > So why do you think the "universal consciousness" is called "nothing"?> Is it because it is no thing?> > To say "nothing" is capable of condensing seems odd.> CliveQuite so.It doesn't really condense.There is the conceptuality that something has become, and a foreground has emerged from a background.Such conceptuality not involving any real condensation, merely the idea that such could have occurred.-- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2002 Report Share Posted July 28, 2002 Nisargadatta, " Clive Elwell " <jevans@t...> wrote: > This seems to lead back to the point where i joined the group and asked about creating worlds. > Are you saying that the idea that it has occured (ie the " condensing " ) actually makes it happen? > Clive No. There is the idea in which a perceiver appears, and to that perceiver, a world, and the experience of perceiving. The idea that something occurred, is an idea. The idea doesn't make something happen. One may inquire, does the idea occur? And one finds only the idea, that an idea has occurred, the perceiving that perception took place. Many jump to the erroneous conclusion that this means that nothing exists. Not so, because only with reference to concepts is " this " equal to " nothing. " " This " cannot be made into concepts that reflect what has occurred, nor is it nothing, and therefore not occurring. It is who you are, but not the idea of who you are. This is who you are, not constructed as concepts separating an observer from an observed. Not a knower nor a known, and thus prior to the sense of having an experience, which depends on someone being there to have the experience, to know that an experience is occurring. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2002 Report Share Posted July 29, 2002 Could we go back a bit? To this point in the exchange: > To say "nothing" is capable of condensing seems odd.> CliveQuite so.It doesn't really condense.There is the conceptuality that something has become, and a foreground has emerged from a background.Such conceptuality not involving any real condensation, merely the idea that such could have occurred.-- Dan If it doesn't really condense, Then what actually happens? You talk of "a conceptuality". What do you mean by this? Then you say: Are you saying that the idea that it has occured (ie the "condensing") actually makes it happen?> CliveNo.There is the idea in which a perceiver appears, and to that perceiver, a world, and the experience of perceiving.The idea that something occurred, is an idea. The idea doesn't make something happen.One may inquire, does the idea occur?And one finds only the idea, that an idea has occurred, the perceiving that perception took place.Many jump to the erroneous conclusion that this means that nothing exists.Not so, because only with reference to concepts is "this" equal to "nothing.""This" cannot be made into concepts that reflect what has occurred, nor is it nothing, and therefore not occurring. It is who you are, but not the idea of who you are. This is who you are, not constructed as concepts separating an observer from an observed.Not a knower nor a known, and thus prior to the sense of having an experience, which depends on someone being there to have the experience, to know that an experience is occurring. I'm wondering what are the right questions to ask to help me understand. Maybe understanding doesn't lie in that realm. However, let's try this. Where do these ideas/concepts come from? Why is there a concept of a knower, a perceiver? I have just three days left on this list. Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2002 Report Share Posted July 29, 2002 I have just three days left on this list. Clive ---------------- haaaaaaaaaaa .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2002 Report Share Posted July 29, 2002 Hi Clive, > I'm wondering what are the right questions to ask to help me understand. Maybe understanding doesn't lie in that realm. Do you mean in the realm of asking the right questions? > However, let's try this. Where do these ideas/concepts come from? An idea can't know where it came from. It came and went. That is all. Whatever content the idea contains about where the idea came from, can't be more valid or permanent than the idea. So, when the idea goes, so goes its content concerning where ideas come from. > Why is there a concept of a knower, a perceiver? Thought involves images. The images presuppose to refer to a world " out there, " and because they infer a world to which they refer, they also imply a " viewer, " someone who is using the thought-images, referencing them for a purpose (generally to gain certain things, or avoid certain things). Also, ideas, at a point in development when a 'self-concept' is generated, begin to include, in their content, the notion of a self to whom the idea refers. Ideas develop complexity, able to include in a thought image references to other thoughts, to a world " out there " and to a self who is using the thought for a purpose. > I have just three days left on this list. Why only three days? -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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