Guest guest Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 ....sounds so wonderful... - but what do you do when your body hurts like hell? fox > > > I am nothing, I have nothing, I can do nothing, > yet everything comes out of me. > > God is all that is good and wonderful and true. > > > > . > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 Fox -- What you do is, you hurt like hell. Separating things like " me " " my body " " the hurt " and " the world in which the body and the hurt appear " is the illusion. The illusion is that anything arises that in any way has a separate entitihood to it. If anyone supposes that " nothing " means that one's present experience dissappears, that is nonsense, also known as nihilism. " Nothing " is, at best, a pointer to " what is " when conceptual separations don't apply. Nothing and something aren't opposed. -- Dan Nisargadatta, " fox " <www955@f...> wrote: > ...sounds so wonderful... > - but what do you do when your body hurts like hell? > > fox > > > > > > > > I am nothing, I have nothing, I can do nothing, > > yet everything comes out of me. > > > > God is all that is good and wonderful and true. > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 I don't think any of you experienced continued pain; I've -it just leaves no room for contemplation... ~k~ Nisargadatta, " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Fox -- > > What you do is, > you hurt like hell. > > Separating things like " me " " my body " > " the hurt " and " the world in which > the body and the hurt appear " > is the illusion. > > The illusion is that anything arises > that in any way has a separate > entitihood to it. > > If anyone supposes that " nothing " means > that one's present experience dissappears, > that is nonsense, also known as nihilism. > > " Nothing " is, at best, a pointer to > " what is " when conceptual separations > don't apply. > > Nothing and something aren't opposed. > > -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 Hi Dan, You are so right, but how about going to a doctor for some blockbuster pain killer? That'd work better than philosophy, wouldn't it? >Nothing and something aren't opposed.> They are opposed for practical purposes, but not in a metaphysical sense. 0=all all=0 Best of reliefs for everyone, Pete --- dan330033 <dan330033 wrote: > Fox -- > > What you do is, > you hurt like hell. > > Separating things like " me " " my body " > " the hurt " and " the world in which > the body and the hurt appear " > is the illusion. > > The illusion is that anything arises > that in any way has a separate > entitihood to it. > > If anyone supposes that " nothing " means > that one's present experience dissappears, > that is nonsense, also known as nihilism. > > " Nothing " is, at best, a pointer to > " what is " when conceptual separations > don't apply. > > > -- Dan > > > Nisargadatta, " fox " <www955@f...> wrote: > > ...sounds so wonderful... > > - but what do you do when your body hurts like > hell? > > > > fox > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am nothing, I have nothing, I can do nothing, > > > yet everything comes out of me. > > > > > > God is all that is good and wonderful and true. > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 good question fox. i remember a spiritual cult (christian science?) member who was on trial once in boston. he didn't let his child receive medical treatment because they believe in spiritual healing. the child died. i remember the prosecutor asking the father why he agreed to get a root canal job for himself whereas he would not take his child to a medical doctor. you see, although advaitins may speak the nondual lingo, they're not necessarly the same as the christian science members when it comes to seeking medical treatment. there is no particular way to act for an advaitan. frankly speaking, i don't even like the term nondual as if the advaitan glasses are supposed to eliminate the double vision and this new view somehow supposed to liberate one from the burden of individual existence. as ramana maharshi said if someone is beating you with a stick, you cannot say there is no pain. hur Nisargadatta, " fox " <www955@f...> wrote: > ...sounds so wonderful... > - but what do you do when your body hurts like hell? > > fox > > > > > > > > I am nothing, I have nothing, I can do nothing, > > yet everything comes out of me. > > > > God is all that is good and wonderful and true. > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 That's why I said, " what you do is, you hurt like hell. " However, there are limits to pain. At a certain point, one will lose consciousness or die. Rather than contemplation, in the sense of intellectual considerations of thought, pain directs one to contemplation as directly being aware of/as " what is. " That " one cannot help it, " that " one has no choice about the matter " -- those are key insights, although they don't make pain enjoyable. Truth doesn't eliminate pain from life. Pain is as necessary to life as is pleasure. " That " which is beyond pain or pleasure, is that which is, simultaneously with experiencing pain or pleasure, yet has not gone away when the body goes unconscious or dies (as " this " is not-a-thing). -- Dan Nisargadatta, " satkartar5 " <mi_nok> wrote: > I don't think any of you experienced continued pain; I've -it just leaves no room for contemplation... > > ~k~ > > Nisargadatta, " dan330033 " > <dan330033> wrote: > > Fox -- > > > > What you do is, > > you hurt like hell. > > > > Separating things like " me " " my body " > > " the hurt " and " the world in which > > the body and the hurt appear " > > is the illusion. > > > > The illusion is that anything arises > > that in any way has a separate > > entitihood to it. > > > > If anyone supposes that " nothing " means > > that one's present experience dissappears, > > that is nonsense, also known as nihilism. > > > > " Nothing " is, at best, a pointer to > > " what is " when conceptual separations > > don't apply. > > > > Nothing and something aren't opposed. > > > > -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 Hi Pete, > You are so right, but how about going to > a doctor for some blockbuster pain killer? > That'd work better than philosophy, wouldn't it? Only if not leading to addiction or avoidance of what is resulting in the pain. > > >Nothing and something aren't opposed.> > > They are opposed for practical purposes, but not > in a metaphysical sense. They are opposed for perception, but not for apperception. > Best of reliefs for everyone, Magic elixer for all. This round's on me! Burp! -- Dan > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 Hi Dan, Love to talk to you, man, you know, even pain and suffering will be conquered some day by science. Chemistry is the magic kit. We are a dance of chemicals and chemists are the dance masters. One day, not to far in the future there will be a happiness pill. No more suffering or pain. If you think annica (impermanency) doesn't apply to your beliefs, your dogmas, your religion, think again. If you think there is an insight, a mental state, a vision of reality, a realization that is permanent, think again. Only change is permanent, and only going with its flow is liberation. And if you think this is wrong view, that will change too. Happy bouncing along, Pete --- dan330033 & lt;dan330033 & gt; wrote: & gt; Hi Pete, & gt; & gt; & gt; You are so right, but how about going to & gt; & gt; a doctor for some blockbuster pain killer? & gt; & gt; That'd work better than philosophy, wouldn't it? & gt; & gt; Only if not leading to addiction or avoidance & gt; of what is resulting in the pain. & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;Nothing and something aren't opposed. & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; They are opposed for practical purposes, but not & gt; & gt; in a metaphysical sense. & gt; & gt; They are opposed for perception, & gt; but not for apperception. & gt; & gt; & gt; Best of reliefs for everyone, & gt; & gt; Magic elixer for all. & gt; This round's on me! & gt; & gt; Burp! & gt; & gt; -- Dan & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; Pete & gt; & gt; & gt; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 hope you dont mind my jumping in, ive been thinking about gurus who had cancer i e nisargadatta ramana, papaji had diabetes i think so whats with that, what about louis hay? or is that just crap, everthing good in the spiritual and in the mind and your body will reflect that, i am confused coming from a course in miracles background,and what is disease?is it to do with this reality or dream and you cant change this,nisargadatta seemed to have removed his being from the pain of cancer,but why not cure it like louis hay then i suppose i could say why am i attacted to pleasure and freak at pain, if you are enlightend why wouldn't you heal your disease or is the deal not identyfy with your body or pain pleasure, communication with other bodies as that would give a reality to yours with all the stuff that goes with having a body take it easy in your body all answers to my queries appreciated but dont crucyfy me with intalectual mind stuff as time is to short, maybe ariel - -- pete seesaw <seesaw1us wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> Hi Dan,<BR> Love to talk to you, man, you know, even pain and<BR> suffering & nbsp; will be conquered some day by science.<BR> Chemistry is the magic kit. We are a dance of<BR> chemicals<BR> and chemists are the dance masters. One day, not to<BR> far in the future there will be a happiness pill. No<BR> more suffering or pain.<BR> <BR> If you think annica (impermanency) doesn't apply to<BR> your beliefs,<BR> your dogmas, your religion, think again. If you think<BR> there is an insight, a mental state, a vision of<BR> reality, a realization that is permanent, think again.<BR> Only change is permanent, and only going with its flow<BR> is liberation.<BR> <BR> And if you think this is wrong view, that will change<BR> too. <BR> <BR> Happy bouncing along,<BR> <BR> Pete<BR> <BR> --- dan330033 & amp;lt;dan330033 & amp;gt; wrote:<BR> & amp;gt; Hi Pete,<BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; You are so right, but how about going to<BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; a doctor for some blockbuster pain killer?<BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; That'd work better than philosophy, wouldn't<BR> it?<BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; Only if not leading to addiction or avoidance<BR> & amp;gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; of what is resulting in the pain.<BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; & nbsp; <BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; & amp;gt;Nothing and something aren't<BR> opposed. & amp;gt;<BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; They are opposed for practical purposes, but<BR> not<BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; in a & nbsp; metaphysical sense.<BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; They are opposed for perception,<BR> & amp;gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; but not for apperception.<BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; Best of reliefs for everyone,<BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; Magic elixer for all.<BR> & amp;gt; This round's on me!<BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; Burp!<BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; -- Dan<BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; & amp;gt; Pete<BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; <BR> & amp;gt; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 Hi Pete, > Love to talk to you, man, you know, Fine with me, too ... > even pain and > suffering will be conquered some day by science. This is a personal fantasy about a conquest of something deemed expendable and undesirable by the person. > Chemistry is the magic kit. We are a dance of > chemicals > and chemists are the dance masters. > One day, not to > far in the future there will be a happiness pill. No > more suffering or pain. Keep hoping for that magic future. A great way to avoid what the present actually is. > > If you think annica (impermanency) doesn't apply to > your beliefs, > your dogmas, your religion, think again. Do you think that it's a matter of thinking? > If you think > there is an insight, a mental state, a vision of > reality, a realization that is permanent, think again. > Only change is permanent, and only going with its flow > is liberation. Who is supposedly to be liberated by this approach? What is apart from the flow, that can go with it or against it? > And if you think this is wrong view, that will change > too. If you think you have presented a view, that, too, will change :-) > Happy bouncing along, Yup. Row, row, row your boat Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 --- dan330033 <dan330033 wrote: > Hi Pete, > > > Love to talk to you, man, you know, > > Fine with me, too ... > > > even pain and > > suffering will be conquered some day by science. > >Dan: This is a personal fantasy about a conquest > of something deemed expendable and undesirable > by the person. Pete: No fantasy. We are breaking the chemichal code of the brain as we write. It will happen. > > Chemistry is the magic kit. We are a dance of > > chemicals > > and chemists are the dance masters. > > One day, not to > > far in the future there will be a happiness pill. > No > > more suffering or pain. > Dan: Keep hoping for that magic future. > A great way to avoid what the present actually is. Pete: No hope here, Dan. The present is perfect as it is. > > If you think annica (impermanency) doesn't apply > to > > your beliefs, > > your dogmas, your religion, think again. > > Do you think that it's a matter of thinking? > > > If you think > > there is an insight, a mental state, a vision of > > reality, a realization that is permanent, think > again. > > Only change is permanent, and only going with its > flow > > is liberation. > >Dan: Who is supposedly to be liberated by this approach? This is not an aproach. it's a fact. > What is apart from the flow, that can go with > it or against it? > > > And if you think this is wrong view, that will > change > > too. > Dan: If you think you have presented > a view, that, too, will change :-) Pete: It already has. > > Happy bouncing along, > > Yup. > > Row, row, row your boat > Gently down the stream. > > Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, > Life is but a dream. > > -- Dan LOVE THAT TUNE, Pete > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 Hi Ariel, No one enlightened that was born more than a hundred years ago is alive today. Enlightened people are not immortal or have the power to change reality at will. Maybe your definition of enlightenment is too miraculous. I don't like the word enlightenment anyway. It carries too many unrealistic expectations: A mystical Disneyland. Best to you, Pete Health - Feel better, live better http://health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 Hi Ariel, some excerpts below from a Satsang with Robert Adams addressing your questions **************************** I think we'll talk a little about jnana, siddhis and spiritual healing. Many people ask me, " Robert, how come Jnanis never get involved in spiritual healing, nor cause miracles to occur? Why don't they use their powers, like Sai Baba, to produce vebuti, necklaces, rings? Why don't they heal people like Jesus did? " Now that's a pretty intelligent question. First of all you have to remember what a true Jnani is. The word jnana and Jnani have been used very loosely in this age. A person who practices bhakti is a bhakta, devotion and devotee. So it's easy to say I am a bhakta, no matter what level of consciousness you're on. But when you come to jnana , it's completely different. You can't say I am a Jnani if you're practicing jnana. A Jnani is a sacred word. It implies that you have transcended the universe, that you are no longer your body or mind phenomena. You are totally liberated. And of course if you were, you would not say that I am a Jnani, for there would be no one left to say that. You would remain silent. When we speak of such things as spiritual healing, and we try to compare Jnanis to people like Sai Baba, Jesus and others, where we'd be better off if we would not compare at all. Every teacher has their place, and every teacher did what they were supposed to do.... The answer of course is very simple. There is no one home. No one is left to perform miracles. When you perform miracles, it is an emanation of the mind. Miracles are in the mind. There has to be a subject and an object. There has to be a doer and something to be done. Immediately you can see it has nothing to do with jnana . A Jnani is totally free of those things. ....A true Jnani has no time to go around the country healing people. He spends his time in the bliss of eternity, all-pervading, omnipresent. - " ariel cathcart " <arielcathcart > hope you dont mind my jumping in, ive been thinking > about gurus who had cancer i e nisargadatta ramana, > papaji had diabetes i think so whats with that, what > about louis hay? or is that just crap, .......nisargadatta seemed to have removed his being > from the pain of cancer,but why not cure it like louis > hay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 .......nisargadatta seemed to have removed his being > from the pain of cancer...... ariel ------------------- Not true. If you read " Consciousness and the Absolute " . El Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 healings, like everything else appearing in the dream are subject to the law of opposites. Inspite of Nisargadatta's, Ramana's and Robert Adams' bodily condition, the consciousness was not affected...they pointed toward waking up from the dream...not healing it. - " ariel cathcart " <arielcathcart <Nisargadatta > Sunday, August 04, 2002 11:03 PM Re: Re: many of you are not so realistic? > hope you dont mind my jumping in, ive been thinking > about gurus who had cancer i e nisargadatta ramana, > papaji had diabetes i think so whats with that, what > about louis hay? or is that just crap, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2002 Report Share Posted August 6, 2002 but doesn't there have to be a subject to experience the pain and i didn't think nisargadatta had one, i do,i think if my body experiences intence pain i would associate completly with that,i am not enlightend so it is all gueswork for me,maybe there is no difference,enlightend and you still feel pain,did'nt he say whatever happens know that you are beyond that? can you be beyond ,and experience together all it gets down to for me is i dont know thanks for your reply keep well ariel --- el_wells_2002 <elizabethwells wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> .......nisargadatta seemed to have removed his being<BR> & gt; from the pain of cancer......<BR> <BR> ariel<BR> <BR> -------------------<BR> <BR> Not true.<BR> <BR> If you read & quot;Consciousness and the Absolute & quot;.<BR> <BR> El<BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size= " -1 " color=#003399><b> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2002 Report Share Posted August 6, 2002 Nisargadatta, ariel cathcart <arielcathcart> wrote: > but doesn't there have to be a subject to experience > the pain ---------------- There is suffering. But no one who suffers. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2002 Report Share Posted August 7, 2002 > > > > > even pain and > > > suffering will be conquered some day by science. > > > >Dan: This is a personal fantasy about a conquest > > of something deemed expendable and undesirable > > by the person. > > Pete: No fantasy. We are breaking the chemichal code > of the brain as we write. It will happen. Dan: One's life is only now, and ideas about what the future will be are fantasies, which occur now. As there is no real content available about what, if anything, the future is, the content for ideas of the future must be supplied by imagination based on projecting the past, projecting what is believed to be known. Explaining yours and others' suffering as " just the result of chemicals " certainly curtails any usefulness of inquiry in depth. For example, inquiry into suffering as the stress of expectations that aren't fulfilled. > > > Chemistry is the magic kit. We are a dance of > > > chemicals > > > and chemists are the dance masters. > > > One day, not to > > > far in the future there will be a happiness pill. > > No > > > more suffering or pain. > > > Dan: Keep hoping for that magic future. > > A great way to avoid what the present actually is. > > Pete: No hope here, Dan. The present is perfect as it > is. Dan: Perfect or not, it is as it is. Whatever that is :-) > > > > If you think annica (impermanency) doesn't apply > > to > > > your beliefs, > > > your dogmas, your religion, think again. > > > > Do you think that it's a matter of thinking? > > > > > If you think > > > there is an insight, a mental state, a vision of > > > reality, a realization that is permanent, think > > again. > > > Only change is permanent, and only going with its > > flow > > > is liberation. > > > >Dan: Who is supposedly to be liberated by this > approach? > This is not an aproach. it's a fact. D: You sidestepped the question, but that's okay. A belief is not a fact, just an imagined fact :-) > > > What is apart from the flow, that can go with > > it or against it? > > > > > And if you think this is wrong view, that will > > change > > > too. > > > Dan: If you think you have presented > > a view, that, too, will change :-) > > Pete: It already has. D: Yes, and that, too, has changed :-) > > > Happy bouncing along, > > > > Yup. > > > > Row, row, row your boat > > Gently down the stream. > > > > Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, > > Life is but a dream. > > > > -- Dan > > LOVE THAT TUNE, > > Pete UNNAME THAT TUNE -- -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2002 Report Share Posted August 7, 2002 Yes, it's a magical, utopian word. Like giving a child a soothing toy ... -- Dan Nisargadatta, pete seesaw <seesaw1us> wrote: > Hi Ariel, > > No one enlightened that was born more than a hundred > years ago is alive today. Enlightened people are > not immortal or have the power to change reality at > will. Maybe your definition of enlightenment is too > miraculous. I don't like the word enlightenment > anyway. > It carries too many unrealistic expectations: A > mystical Disneyland. > > Best to you, > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2002 Report Share Posted August 8, 2002 pete how do you know that no enlightened ones are not around may be they dont advertize,i understand where you guys are coming from with seeing enlightenment as a toy but maybe you need that in the begining to let go that other toy we call i consciosness or as someone else said become like children ariel--- dan330033 <dan330033 wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> Yes, it's a magical, utopian word.<BR> <BR> Like giving a child a soothing toy ...<BR> <BR> -- Dan<BR> <BR> <BR> Nisargadatta, pete seesaw & lt;seesaw1us & gt; wrote:<BR> & gt; Hi Ariel,<BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; No one enlightened that was born more than a hundred<BR> & gt; years ago is alive today. Enlightened people are<BR> & gt; not immortal or have the power to change reality at<BR> & gt; will. Maybe your definition of enlightenment is too<BR> & gt; miraculous. I don't like the word enlightenment<BR> & gt; anyway.<BR> & gt; It carries too many unrealistic expectations: A<BR> & gt; mystical Disneyland.<BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; Best to you,<BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; Pete<BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size= " -1 " color=#003399><b> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2002 Report Share Posted August 8, 2002 Yeah, you are right we all need toys when we begin, but my advise to any bigginer here would be, don't read any of these stuff. It's too confusing whithout the basics. Best, Pete --- ariel cathcart <arielcathcart wrote: > pete how do you know that no enlightened ones are > not > around may be they dont advertize,i understand where > you guys are coming from with seeing enlightenment > as > a toy but maybe you need that in the begining to let > go that other toy we call i consciosness or as > someone > else said become like children ariel--- > dan330033 > <dan330033 wrote: > <HR> > <html><body> > > > <tt> > Yes, it's a magical, utopian word.<BR> > <BR> > Like giving a child a soothing toy ...<BR> > <BR> > -- Dan<BR> > <BR> > <BR> > Nisargadatta, pete seesaw > & lt;seesaw1us & gt; wrote:<BR> > & gt; Hi Ariel,<BR> > & gt; <BR> > & gt; No one enlightened that was born more than a > hundred<BR> > & gt; years ago is alive today. Enlightened people > are<BR> > & gt; not immortal or have the power to change > reality > at<BR> > & gt; will. Maybe your definition of enlightenment is > too<BR> > & gt; miraculous. I don't like the word > enlightenment<BR> > & gt; anyway.<BR> > & gt; It carries too many unrealistic expectations: > A<BR> > & gt; mystical Disneyland.<BR> > & gt; <BR> > & gt; Best to you,<BR> > & gt; <BR> > & gt; Pete<BR> > <BR> > </tt> > > <br> > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> > > <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> > <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> > <td align=center><font size= " -1 " > color=#003399><b> > Sponsor</b></font></td> > </tr> > <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> > <td align=center width=470><table border=0 > cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td > align=center><font > face=arial size=-2></font><br><a > href= " http://rd./M=228862.2128520.3581629.1829184/D=egroupweb/S=1705077\ 076:HM/A=1182686/R=0/*http://adfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/990-1736-1039-333 > " target= " _top " ><img border= " 0 " > src= " http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/co/columbiahouse/d_300x250_031_4for49_2\ ..gif " > height= " 250 " width= " 300 " ></a></td></tr></table></td> > </tr> > </table> > > <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> > > > <br> > <tt> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2002 Report Share Posted August 9, 2002 Dan & Friends, Dan says: UNNAME THAT TUNE. eric says: SHAKTI UNNAMED IS SHIVA. NOW,THAT YOU KNOW, NAME THAT TUNE! yours in t he bonds, eric Nisargadatta, " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > > > > > > even pain and > > > > suffering will be conquered some day by science. > > > > > >Dan: This is a personal fantasy about a conquest > > > of something deemed expendable and undesirable > > > by the person. > > > > Pete: No fantasy. We are breaking the chemichal code > > of the brain as we write. It will happen. > > Dan: > > One's life is only now, and ideas > about what the future will be > are fantasies, which occur now. > > As there is no real content available > about what, if anything, the future is, > the content for ideas of the future > must be supplied by imagination > based on projecting the past, projecting > what is believed to be known. > > Explaining yours and others' suffering > as " just the result of chemicals " > certainly curtails any usefulness of inquiry > in depth. For example, inquiry into > suffering as the stress of expectations > that aren't fulfilled. > > > > > > Chemistry is the magic kit. We are a dance of > > > > chemicals > > > > and chemists are the dance masters. > > > > One day, not to > > > > far in the future there will be a happiness pill. > > > No > > > > more suffering or pain. > > > > > Dan: Keep hoping for that magic future. > > > A great way to avoid what the present actually is. > > > > Pete: No hope here, Dan. The present is perfect as it > > is. > > Dan: Perfect or not, it is as it is. Whatever that is :-) > > > > > > > > If you think annica (impermanency) doesn't apply > > > to > > > > your beliefs, > > > > your dogmas, your religion, think again. > > > > > > Do you think that it's a matter of thinking? > > > > > > > If you think > > > > there is an insight, a mental state, a vision of > > > > reality, a realization that is permanent, think > > > again. > > > > Only change is permanent, and only going with its > > > flow > > > > is liberation. > > > > > >Dan: Who is supposedly to be liberated by this > > approach? > > > This is not an aproach. it's a fact. > > D: You sidestepped the question, but that's okay. > > A belief is not a fact, just an imagined fact :-) > > > > > > What is apart from the flow, that can go with > > > it or against it? > > > > > > > And if you think this is wrong view, that will > > > change > > > > too. > > > > > Dan: If you think you have presented > > > a view, that, too, will change :-) > > > > Pete: It already has. > > D: Yes, and that, too, has changed :-) > > > > > > Happy bouncing along, > > > > > > Yup. > > > > > > Row, row, row your boat > > > Gently down the stream. > > > > > > Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, > > > Life is but a dream. > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > LOVE THAT TUNE, > > > > Pete > > UNNAME THAT TUNE -- > > -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2002 Report Share Posted August 9, 2002 hi ya pete if you think this list might be con fusing for some one searching ,how about your local shopping centre, or the 6,0,clock news,sometimes i feel like i,ve dropped in from mars ,i think the basics need to be beyond the personality,as that for me doesn,t seem to be to stable sometimes take it easy ariel--- pete seesaw <seesaw1us wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> Yeah, you are right we all need toys when we begin,<BR> but<BR> my advise to any bigginer here would be, don't read<BR> any<BR> of these stuff. It's too confusing whithout the<BR> basics.<BR> <BR> Best,<BR> Pete<BR> --- ariel cathcart & lt;arielcathcart & gt; wrote:<BR> & gt; pete how do you know that no enlightened ones are<BR> & gt; not<BR> & gt; around may be they dont advertize,i understand where<BR> & gt; you guys are coming from with seeing enlightenment<BR> & gt; as<BR> & gt; a toy but maybe you need that in the begining to let<BR> & gt; go that other toy we call i consciosness or as<BR> & gt; someone<BR> & gt; else said become like children & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; ariel---<BR> & gt; dan330033<BR> & gt; & lt;dan330033 & gt; wrote: <BR> & gt; & lt;HR & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;html & gt; & lt;body & gt;<BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; & lt;tt & gt;<BR> & gt; Yes, it's a magical, utopian word. & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; Like giving a child a soothing toy .... & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; -- Dan & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; Nisargadatta, pete seesaw<BR> & gt; & amp;lt;seesaw1us & amp;gt; wrote: & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; Hi Ariel, & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; No one enlightened that was born more than a<BR> & gt; hundred & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; years ago is alive today. Enlightened people<BR> & gt; are & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; not immortal or have the power to change<BR> & gt; reality<BR> & gt; at & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; will. Maybe your definition of enlightenment is<BR> & gt; too & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; miraculous. I don't like the word<BR> & gt; enlightenment & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; anyway. & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; It carries too many unrealistic expectations:<BR> & gt; A & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; mystical Disneyland. & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; Best to you, & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & amp;gt; Pete & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;BR & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;/tt & gt;<BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; & lt;br & gt;<BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; & lt;!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -- & gt;<BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; & lt;table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2 & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;td align=center & gt; & lt;font size= & quot;-1 & quot;<BR> & gt; color=#003399 & gt; & lt;b & gt;<BR> & gt; Sponsor & lt;/b & gt; & lt;/font & gt; & lt;/td & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;/tr & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;td align=center width=470 & gt; & lt;table border=0<BR> & gt; cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 & gt; & lt;tr & gt; & lt;td<BR> & gt; align=center & gt; & lt;font<BR> & gt; face=arial size=-2 & gt; & lt;/font & gt; & lt;br & gt; & lt;a<BR> & gt;<BR> href= & quot;<a href= " http://rd./M=228862.2128520.3581629.1829184/D=egroupweb/S=1705077\ 076:HM/A=1182686/R=0/*http://adfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/990-1736-1039-333 " >http:\ //rd./M=228862.2128520.3581629.1829184/D=egroupweb/S=1705077076:HM/A=11\ 82686/R=0/*http://adfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/990-1736-1039-333</a><BR> & gt; & quot; target= & quot;_top & quot; & gt; & lt;img border= & quot;0 & quot;<BR> & gt;<BR> src= & quot;<a href= " http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/co/columbiahouse/d_300x250_031_4for49_\ 2.gif " >http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/co/columbiahouse/d_300x250_031_4for49\ _2.gif</a> & quot;<BR> & gt; height= & quot;250 & quot; width= & quot;300 & quot; & gt; & lt;/a & gt; & lt;/td & gt; & lt;/tr & gt; & lt;/table & gt; & lt;/td & g\ t;<BR> & gt; & lt;/tr & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;/table & gt;<BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; & lt;!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -- & gt;<BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; <BR> & gt; & lt;br & gt;<BR> & gt; & lt;tt & gt;<BR> & gt; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2002 Report Share Posted August 11, 2002 Ariel -- Yes, it's a question of whether you need a concept like that, or believe you do -- Or -- are concepts being released? If releasing concepts, the idea " enlightenment " has no special privilege or value -- nor does the idea " releasing concepts " ... :-) -- Dan > pete how do you know that no enlightened ones are not > around may be they dont advertize,i understand where > you guys are coming from with seeing enlightenment as > a toy but maybe you need that in the begining to let > go that other toy we call i consciosness or as someone > else said become like children ariel--- dan330033 > <dan330033> wrote: > <HR> > <html><body> > > > <tt> > Yes, it's a magical, utopian word.<BR> > <BR> > Like giving a child a soothing toy ...<BR> > <BR> > -- Dan<BR> > <BR> > <BR> > Nisargadatta, pete seesaw > seesaw1us wrote:<BR> > & gt; Hi Ariel,<BR> > & gt; <BR> > & gt; No one enlightened that was born more than a > hundred<BR> > & gt; years ago is alive today. Enlightened people > are<BR> > & gt; not immortal or have the power to change reality > at<BR> > & gt; will. Maybe your definition of enlightenment is > too<BR> > & gt; miraculous. I don't like the word > enlightenment<BR> > & gt; anyway.<BR> > & gt; It carries too many unrealistic expectations: > A<BR> > & gt; mystical Disneyland.<BR> > & gt; <BR> > & gt; Best to you,<BR> > & gt; <BR> > & gt; Pete<BR> > <BR> > </tt> > > <br> > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> > > <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> > <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> > <td align=center><font size= " -1 " > color=#003399><b> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2002 Report Share Posted August 11, 2002 Eric - Of course, you can play name that tune whenever and however you like. Yet, how will you name a tune, when you can't separate yourself from it, to call it something? How will it be named, when its vibration on the ear, and the ear itself, are the same? :-) -- Dan Nisargadatta, " eblack101 " <EBlackstead@c...> wrote: > Dan & Friends, > > Dan says: UNNAME THAT TUNE. > > eric says: SHAKTI UNNAMED IS SHIVA. NOW,THAT YOU KNOW, NAME THAT TUNE! > > yours in t he bonds, > eric > > > > Nisargadatta, " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > > > > > > > > even pain and > > > > > suffering will be conquered some day by science. > > > > > > > >Dan: This is a personal fantasy about a conquest > > > > of something deemed expendable and undesirable > > > > by the person. > > > > > > Pete: No fantasy. We are breaking the chemichal code > > > of the brain as we write. It will happen. > > > > Dan: > > > > One's life is only now, and ideas > > about what the future will be > > are fantasies, which occur now. > > > > As there is no real content available > > about what, if anything, the future is, > > the content for ideas of the future > > must be supplied by imagination > > based on projecting the past, projecting > > what is believed to be known. > > > > Explaining yours and others' suffering > > as " just the result of chemicals " > > certainly curtails any usefulness of inquiry > > in depth. For example, inquiry into > > suffering as the stress of expectations > > that aren't fulfilled. > > > > > > > > > Chemistry is the magic kit. We are a dance of > > > > > chemicals > > > > > and chemists are the dance masters. > > > > > One day, not to > > > > > far in the future there will be a happiness pill. > > > > No > > > > > more suffering or pain. > > > > > > > Dan: Keep hoping for that magic future. > > > > A great way to avoid what the present actually is. > > > > > > Pete: No hope here, Dan. The present is perfect as it > > > is. > > > > Dan: Perfect or not, it is as it is. Whatever that is :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think annica (impermanency) doesn't apply > > > > to > > > > > your beliefs, > > > > > your dogmas, your religion, think again. > > > > > > > > Do you think that it's a matter of thinking? > > > > > > > > > If you think > > > > > there is an insight, a mental state, a vision of > > > > > reality, a realization that is permanent, think > > > > again. > > > > > Only change is permanent, and only going with its > > > > flow > > > > > is liberation. > > > > > > > >Dan: Who is supposedly to be liberated by this > > > approach? > > > > > This is not an aproach. it's a fact. > > > > D: You sidestepped the question, but that's okay. > > > > A belief is not a fact, just an imagined fact :-) > > > > > > > > > What is apart from the flow, that can go with > > > > it or against it? > > > > > > > > > And if you think this is wrong view, that will > > > > change > > > > > too. > > > > > > > Dan: If you think you have presented > > > > a view, that, too, will change :-) > > > > > > Pete: It already has. > > > > D: Yes, and that, too, has changed :-) > > > > > > > > > Happy bouncing along, > > > > > > > > Yup. > > > > > > > > Row, row, row your boat > > > > Gently down the stream. > > > > > > > > Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, > > > > Life is but a dream. > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > LOVE THAT TUNE, > > > > > > Pete > > > > UNNAME THAT TUNE -- > > > > -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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