2nd email : chaos, questions and answers and new question...(dan's comments)

[Guest guest]

dan!

 

you said:" > Who are you, prior to providing> a definition of yourself and> other things?"

----- Yes, please tell me, who I am apart from my aching body, my feelins of a meaningless existence,

my extreme lonliness, my constantly unfullfilled sexual hunger, my excessive sometimes even aggressive, nervous, narcisstic personality, my chronique fatigue?!?! Who am I ???

 

> It depends on how you define "awareness"> and your perception of what it is> and isn't.

 

----- What is it??? I seem to have no clue!

 

> > Would it be important to learn lucid dreaming, as to watch as much > as> > possible what> > is going on?! > " Important for whom, to gain what?"

 

----- Important for the feeling within 'me' (what or who is 'me'!?!)

 

> So, there's a finite amount of> consciousness, which can be> increased and decreased?> And thus, there is a beginning> and an ending to it?

----- Yes, exactly that is precisely how I perceive it.

I suffer from chronique fatigue syndrome; sometimes it is so strong, I just am too tired to think, to feel.

It seems to me, as if my consciousness wants to turn totally dark, it goes 95% blank.

Hence: I loose my consciousness, but there is NO AWARENESS ARISING!

Just Blackness, Unconsciousness, Deep Sleep...!?!?!?!

 

 

> > Taking LSD to speed up the process...?> > Where are you trying to get to?

----- The land where milk and honey abounds...(Out of pain, of course, as you want as well, I bet...!)

 

 

Thanks very much for your comments...please enlighten me...!

 

fox

www.feel.ch

[Guest guest]

Hi Fox --

 

> you said:

>

>

> " > Who are you, prior to providing

> > a definition of yourself and

> > other things? "

>

> ----- Yes, please tell me, who I am apart from my aching body, my

feelins of a meaningless existence,

> my extreme lonliness, my constantly unfullfilled sexual hunger, my

excessive sometimes even aggressive, nervous, narcisstic personality,

my chronique fatigue?!?! Who am I ???

 

Yes, who am I indeed -- and without

asking in such a way as to try to escape

anything ...

 

And without making any assumptions --

 

So, not assuming that I can escape, or that there is

anything, place, or experience into which I could

escape ...

 

And not even assuming that I know one thing about

who I am ... not necessarily even that I am or

am not ...

 

And see ... saying " who am I apart from " already provides

a definition. You have defined yourself

as having a being apart from ... apart from

experiences that aren't fun ...

 

Perhaps it could be said, " who am I prior to the idea

that I am the aching body, or that I could be

something else ... "

 

Who am I prior to even one moment of conceiving

that I am existing here, or could be somewhere

else, or could be nonexisting ...

 

> > It depends on how you define " awareness "

> > and your perception of what it is

> > and isn't.

>

> ----- What is it??? I seem to have no clue!

 

It is apparently defining awareness and

able to say what it is or isn't.

 

Or is it?

 

How " clueless " can you be?

 

Can you be so clueless that

you don't have a clue how

clueless you are?

 

 

> > > Would it be important to learn lucid dreaming, as to watch as

much

> > as

> > > possible what

> > > is going on?!

> >

> " Important for whom, to gain what? "

>

> ----- Important for the feeling within 'me' (what or who is 'me'!?!)

 

Yes, now you've defined yourself as a feeling within " me. "

 

What is it when you haven't made any decision about

what you are or aren't, when whatever arises

is just what it is, as it is ... however that

is ... not commented about, not a basis for

a strategy to get somewhere, or get out of it,

or get into it to get something from it ...

 

> > So, there's a finite amount of

> > consciousness, which can be

> > increased and decreased?

> > And thus, there is a beginning

> > and an ending to it?

>

> ----- Yes, exactly that is precisely how I perceive it.

> I suffer from chronique fatigue syndrome; sometimes it is

so strong, I just am too tired to think, to feel.

> It seems to me, as if my consciousness wants to turn

totally dark, it goes 95% blank.

> Hence: I loose my consciousness, but there is NO AWARENESS

ARISING!

> Just Blackness, Unconsciousness, Deep Sleep...!?!?!?!

 

You can only say this after you awaken from the sleep.

 

Looking at the gap in your awareness, your missing time,

you say, " I must have been sleeping. "

 

What is it when there is no such thing as looking back,

when there is no back at which to look, and no

one being defined as one who looks or knows, not

even an " undefined being " ?

 

Clueless doesn't quite get it, because there is

no way to know oneself even as clueless.

 

" This " won't cure your chronic fatigue syndrome,

it doesn't act on things that have happened.

 

You know you have chronic fatigue syndrome because

you have a memory of events that contain that

information.

 

The memory image gives a definition of " what is. "

 

What is " this " that we're not able to speak, that

hasn't ever had a memory image of what it is?

 

Notice that an image gives a picture of something

always moving on. By the time the picture has

formed, the moving on has already taken place.

 

There is no image of this, no looking back to see what

it was -- you can say " it's not this, not that " ...

but in saying that, you infer that you know what it

is by knowing what it's not -- and you don't,

not even that much is known ...

 

There's no knower of it here.

 

There's nothing separable to know it, know about it,

use it to make something happen, or prevent something

from happening.

 

Whatever happens, happens.

 

And " this " is " this " ...

 

 

> > > Taking LSD to speed up the process...?

> >

> > Where are you trying to get to?

>

> ----- The land where milk and honey abounds...(Out of pain, of

course, as you want as well, I bet...!)

 

The wanting to get out of pain *is* the pain.

 

The effort to be someone inside of the pain, or

in whom the pain resides, is an additional

pain added on top of whatever pain has

arisen.

 

What arises departs when it is time for it to depart.

 

Trying to get out of pain and into the land of honey

is itself pain, and it's a kind of ongoing pain

that can never be satisfied, because it involves

the attempt to be an existing entity with a definition,

who can have experiences that are good and bad.

 

The attempt to get to the good and avoid the bad is

quite natural as you say -- it is the natural

outcome of mental processes that involve a " me "

who gets to have good experiences.

 

What a loss to realize that no such me ever has existed.

 

What a loss to discover that whatever happens, happens

and there is no way for it to be other than it is.

 

And such loss isn't provided by a chemical, for

those experiences, too, are past, are lost ...

 

Whatever altered states are experienced pass as well

as anything else.

 

There is only this " passing " this " moving on " ...

 

The images also move on ... they were never really

fixed, either ...

 

 

> Thanks very much for your comments...please enlighten me...!

 

I can only type words that appear on a screen.

 

There is no one there to get enlightened by them.

 

If there were, then there could be a definable entity,

separable from " what is " ...

 

Nope -- only " what is, as is " ...

 

I'll be gone for a week -- when I get back,

I'll see how my response " sat " with you ...

 

Good luck with the inquiry that's doing you ... :-)

 

-- Dan

[Guest guest]

Dan>I can only type words that appear on a screen.

 

>There is no one there to get enlightened by them.>

 

 

If you really belived the above you wouldn't be

typing. ))

 

You just love having fun with yourself. Don't you?

 

Just joking with you.

 

LOve,

 

Pete

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Pete --

 

> Dan>I can only type words that appear on a screen.

>

> >There is no one there to get enlightened by them.>

>

>

> If you really belived the above you wouldn't be

> typing. ))

 

You mean, I can only type if there's someone there

who's going to get enlightened?

 

Nah -- I just type for fun, to see what comes up

and comes back ...

 

>

> You just love having fun with yourself. Don't you?

 

Sure.

 

And with you, too :-)

 

>

> Just joking with you.

 

I appreciate the humor!

 

Namaste and love,

Dan

[Guest guest]

Hi Dan,

Good, you're back from nowhere. We missed you.

--- dan330033 <dan330033 wrote:

> Hi Pete --

>

>

> You mean, I can only type if there's someone there

> who's going to get enlightened?

>

> Nah -- I just type for fun, to see what comes up

> and comes back ...

 

Bullshit, You are mosquito who thinks it carries the

enlightenment virus and you want to infest as many

people as you can. Beware I have a fly swather by

my

PC. Nah, I wouldn't hurt a nice mosquito like you.

Bite

all you want. Drink our bloood. )

I like what you wrote in the other message, though,

about the 'I' being there only after the fact. Now,

that's a very important point to understand. If we

understand that throughly, we can see how no doing

works and we can relax when this ghost 'I' appears

and spoils the view of unity. We can say: Oh, there is

no I, just a few thoughts passing by. The view is

still

there. No big deal. There is no one to be enlightened.

Isn't that what you said in the first place? So why

did I write all that for?

 

Talking too much, eh? Buzzz

 

Love,

Pete

>

> Namaste and love,

> Dan

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete -

 

> Hi Dan,

> Good, you're back from nowhere. We missed you.

> --- dan330033 <dan330033> wrote:

 

Nice to be back here nowhere with you.

 

> > Hi Pete --

> >

> >

> > You mean, I can only type if there's someone there

> > who's going to get enlightened?

> >

> > Nah -- I just type for fun, to see what comes up

> > and comes back ...

>

> Bullshit, You are mosquito who thinks it carries the

> enlightenment virus and you want to infest as many

> people as you can.

 

Too funny!

 

The enlightenment of Swamp Thing?

 

The murky swamp of enlightenment,

in which mosquitos declaim

noble truths emanating from

their probisci?

 

What does enlightenment mean to

a tree, or to hanging Spanish Moss?

 

Must enquire deeply into this ...

 

Before it's too late, LOL! :-)

 

Beware I have a fly swather by

> my

> PC. Nah, I wouldn't hurt a nice mosquito like you.

> Bite

> all you want. Drink our bloood. )

 

Nourishing stuff!

 

 

> I like what you wrote in the other message, though,

> about the 'I' being there only after the fact. Now,

> that's a very important point to understand. If we

> understand that throughly, we can see how no doing

> works and we can relax when this ghost 'I' appears

> and spoils the view of unity. We can say: Oh, there is

> no I, just a few thoughts passing by. The view is

> still

> there. No big deal. There is no one to be enlightened.

> Isn't that what you said in the first place? So why

> did I write all that for?

 

Mosquitoes resonating in the swampy thing

called " truth " ?

 

The view is always there, and it's not

preturbed by mosquito bites, although

to humans, such bites can be a great

inconvenience.

 

Humans try to explain what reality is,

mosquitoes just follow their nature

and dive for the blood ...

 

 

> Talking too much, eh? Buzzz

 

Yes, what's the buzz?

 

Love,

Dan

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta, " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote:

> Hi Pete --

>

> > Dan>I can only type words that appear on a screen.

> >

> > >There is no one there to get enlightened by them.>

Who is this " no one " ?

 

> > If you really belived the above you wouldn't be

> > typing. ))

typing happen

> You mean, I can only type if there's someone there

> who's going to get enlightened?

 

> Nah -- I just type for fun, to see what comes up

> and comes back ...

That,s a very good story about " causality " and " motive " .Here another

no so good story, " typing just happen " .

> >

> > You just love having fun with yourself. Don't you?

>

> Sure.

Having fun with yourself?

> And with you, too :-)

>

> >

> > Just joking with you.

>

> I appreciate the humor!

>

> Namaste and love,

> Dan

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta, " atagrasin " <k1c2@h...> wrote:

> Nisargadatta, " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote:

> > Hi Pete --

> >

> > > Dan>I can only type words that appear on a screen.

> > >

> > > >There is no one there to get enlightened by them.>

> Who is this " no one " ?

 

A meaningless question.

 

>

> > > If you really belived the above you wouldn't be

> > > typing. ))

> typing happen

> > You mean, I can only type if there's someone there

> > who's going to get enlightened?

>

> > Nah -- I just type for fun, to see what comes up

> > and comes back ...

> That,s a very good story about " causality " and " motive " .Here

another

> no so good story, " typing just happen " .

 

Here's an even less good story ... " typing "

[Guest guest]

> > > > >There is no one there to get enlightened by them.>

> > Who is this " no one " ?

>

> A meaningless question.

For a meaningless statement

> > If you really belived the above you wouldn't be

> > > > typing. ))

> > typing happen

> > > You mean, I can only type if there's someone there

> > > who's going to get enlightened?

> >

> > > Nah -- I just type for fun, to see what comes up

> > > and comes back ...

> > That,s a very good story about " causality " and " motive " .Here

> another

> > no so good story, " typing just happen " .

>

> Here's an even less good

story ... " typing "

Hey Dan this is better : " tic " " tic " " tic " ............ooops let run

for cover

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta, " atagrasin " <k1c2@h...> wrote:

> > > > > >There is no one there to get enlightened by them.>

> > > Who is this " no one " ?

> >

> > A meaningless question.

> For a meaningless statement

 

Okay then, Atagrasin.

 

Say something really meaningful.

 

 

snip

 

> > Here's an even less good

> story ... " typing "

 

> Hey Dan this is better : " tic " " tic " " tic " ............ooops let run

> for cover

 

Not finding any cover,

let's be uncovered.

 

-- Dan