Anti-War Petition

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta Group Friends,

 

It seems to me that we should take at least a short break in our

discussions to consider another vital matter: our current national

debate on the purpose and value, both pro and con, of invading Irag,

particularly in light of the fact that, to date, all of our valuable

allies, both in the Middle East and in Europe are outspoken in their

opposition to our invasion plans.

 

Until recently, all the petitions against our involvement in this

action that could cause the deaths of so many young Americans and

civilian Iraqis were much too tainted with anti-Republican or

Conservative rhetoric to merit much consideration by someone who

chose not to confuse his position on this potential war with

partisan politics. The petition that I'm including below seems to

avoid that problem, at least for me.

 

I've been thinking about the issue of our potential involvement in a

war ever since 9/11. The Vietnamese War, which I came to vehemently

oppose, was begun under a smoke screen of media indifference and

political misrepresentation. I've had many opportunities to question,

when none of our politicians could subsequently rally themselves to

face the difficulties of removing us from that conflict, what might

have been the effect of our involvement if the American public had

considered what was involved BEFORE we were so inextricably entangled

in that " quagmire " .

 

An opportunity like that, unfortunately, looms before us now, as we

are certainly facing a situation both as morally questionable and as

strategically and politically dark and chaotic as Vietnam proved to

be.

 

Here is the petition I'd like you to consider:

 

PETITION LETTER

 

TO: (your representatives)

FROM: (your name and email)

SUBJECT: No War on Iraq

__________

 

Dear Representative,

 

Without hard evidence that Iraq poses a clear and present danger to

the U.S., I urge you to act to prevent a war on Iraq.

 

(Your personal note) Optional.

 

The Bush White House is aggressively promoting a war on Iraq, against

the advice of its diplomats, and without strong support from the

American public or our allies. Such a war would likely undermine both

national and world security. Many of our young people, and likely

many more innocent Iraqis, would die.

 

 

As you know, even top Republican leaders are publicly questioning a

war:

 

 

Brent Scowcroft says a U.S. invasion of Iraq " could turn the whole

region into a cauldron and, thus, destroy the war on terrorism. " He

also says " there is scant evidence to tie Saddam to terrorist

organizations, and even less to the Sept. 11 attacks. "

 

 

Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) says the CIA has " absolutely no evidence "

that Iraq possesses or will soon possess nuclear weapons.

 

 

Henry Kissinger says, " The notion of justified pre- emption runs

counter to modern international law, which sanctions the use of force

in self-defense only against actual -- not potential -- threats. "

Kissinger also says, " American military intervention in Iraq would be

supported only grudgingly, if at all, by most European allies. "

 

 

House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX-26) says, " I don't believe

that America will justifiably make an unprovoked attack on another

nation. It would not be consistent with what we have been as a nation

or what we should be as a nation. "

 

 

Please critically examine the rationale for a war against Iraq and

put the brakes on the Bush White House. You'll have my support if you

act to prevent this war.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

(your name)

(your address)

 

As you've probably already figured out, I don't think we have near

enough grounds to justify the invasion of another country with all

the attendent horrors, not only to our own men and women and those of

Iraq, but also to the millions of citizens of Israel and Jordan,

Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the rest of the surrounding Arab world who

also have so much to lose in an uncontrollable conflict such as this

one promises to be.

 

Our political leadership is not presently willing, both in our eyes

as well as those of our allies, to make the necessary followup

commitments to Afghanistan, where we have already deeply entangled

ourselves. Some of our " experts " maintain that we could be involved

in expensive and labor intensive " nation building " in post-war Iraq,

despite the fact that we are refusing to engage in it in

Afghanistan, for more than 10 years. Iraq is more than 10 times the

size of Afghanistan, and just as politically explosive and unstable.

Further, they lack the committed local ground forces that were so

significant a contibution to our victory on the ground in Afghanistan.

 

It can be argued that the only reason that our leaders are

suggesting that we have the political will and necessary commitment

to such a similarly explosive and risky project in Iraq is that the

Iraqis control enough oil to pay us for our efforts, both to invade

them as well as to rebuild their country. We must ask ourselves if

the value of potentially gaining control of this oil would be enough

to compensate us for the loss of possible 10's of thousands of

American lives and 10's of billions of American dollars that we might

more successfully spend here at home?

 

Do we really believe that Iraq 1/ is in possession of nuclear weapons

and 2/ that they are willing to put those weapons in the hands of

Anti-American Islamist terrorists who would almost certainly use them

in such a way as to virtually guarantee the annhilation of Iraq's

leaders as well as the majority of their people? With regards to

question # 2, please bear in mind that the subsequent effects all

over the Middle East would cause incalculable damage to these

unstable countries: famines, radiation sicknesses, water pollution

and other effects, financial and political, that we can only guess at.

 

Well, Friends, that pretty much covers my position.

 

I hope you will seriously consider this petition and dial up

http://www.moveon.org/nowar/ for further information and how to use

your influence with your friends and neighbors. The organizers stress

that they are going to present their petition all over the Senate and

the House on Aug. 28th, which is almost upon us. If you feel that

you can sign this petition in good faith, please, send it to your

Congressman as well as your Senators and do your part in posting it

on other sites and other locations where it can do some good.

 

Time is short. This vital matter is being considered right now, all

over America. The national debate has begun. Let's not look back on

this war in 2 years and have to ask ourselves what we might have done

to help our nation resolve it's difficulties with Iraq by other more

peaceful means.

 

yours in the bonds,

eric

[Guest guest]

While new here, your post caught my attention.

 

Aside from my " thoughts on the issue " which include the " if you could

have killed Hitler before .. " and similar mental thoughts ...

 

Why seperate and take any " side " to this.

 

I really do take Nisargadatta to heart. The world can take care of

itself, and on Earth that always includes war. It is the way it is

here.

 

Better to " solve " our own riddle and become who we are.

 

Once we get into trying to control the illusions on Earth we take

sides and judge, and presto, we are into thought and things and once

again the subject object world takes over.

 

I prefere not to judge but maintain thw witness.

 

But here is a though for you, a " future " illusion.

 

Say the USA goes along with the group think you seem to have some

affinity with, and we decide to do nothing about Iraq. May I mention

that this happened with Hitler, Stalin, etc., tho they were

obviously " harming " the world.

 

This illusion then has Iraq using a nuke on Isreal, who retaliates

with nukes, etc. Or say a nuke is brought into Los Angeles harbour

and explodes.

 

Could we have prevented this?

 

Think think think.

 

We live forever, each of us. I choose to live with what is, in love.

And for me that includes as little thinking and speculating as I can.

 

Everytime I get " political " I simply become aware of the thought and

let it go. It is a bit of a struggle.

 

Yours,

David

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nisargadatta, " eblack101 " <EBlackstead@c...> wrote:

> Nisargadatta Group Friends,

>

> It seems to me that we should take at least a short break in our

> discussions to consider another vital matter: our current national

> debate on the purpose and value, both pro and con, of invading

Irag,

> particularly in light of the fact that, to date, all of our

valuable

> allies, both in the Middle East and in Europe are outspoken in

their

> opposition to our invasion plans.

>

> Until recently, all the petitions against our involvement in this

> action that could cause the deaths of so many young Americans and

> civilian Iraqis were much too tainted with anti-Republican or

> Conservative rhetoric to merit much consideration by someone who

> chose not to confuse his position on this potential war with

> partisan politics. The petition that I'm including below seems to

> avoid that problem, at least for me.

>

> I've been thinking about the issue of our potential involvement in

a

> war ever since 9/11. The Vietnamese War, which I came to vehemently

> oppose, was begun under a smoke screen of media indifference and

> political misrepresentation. I've had many opportunities to

question,

> when none of our politicians could subsequently rally themselves to

> face the difficulties of removing us from that conflict, what might

> have been the effect of our involvement if the American public had

> considered what was involved BEFORE we were so inextricably

entangled

> in that " quagmire " .

>

> An opportunity like that, unfortunately, looms before us now, as we

> are certainly facing a situation both as morally questionable and

as

> strategically and politically dark and chaotic as Vietnam proved to

> be.

>

> Here is the petition I'd like you to consider:

>

> PETITION LETTER

>

> TO: (your representatives)

> FROM: (your name and email)

> SUBJECT: No War on Iraq

> __________

>

> Dear Representative,

>

> Without hard evidence that Iraq poses a clear and present danger to

> the U.S., I urge you to act to prevent a war on Iraq.

>

> (Your personal note) Optional.

>

> The Bush White House is aggressively promoting a war on Iraq,

against

> the advice of its diplomats, and without strong support from the

> American public or our allies. Such a war would likely undermine

both

> national and world security. Many of our young people, and likely

> many more innocent Iraqis, would die.

>

>

> As you know, even top Republican leaders are publicly questioning a

> war:

>

>

> Brent Scowcroft says a U.S. invasion of Iraq " could turn the whole

> region into a cauldron and, thus, destroy the war on terrorism. " He

> also says " there is scant evidence to tie Saddam to terrorist

> organizations, and even less to the Sept. 11 attacks. "

>

>

> Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) says the CIA has " absolutely no

evidence "

> that Iraq possesses or will soon possess nuclear weapons.

>

>

> Henry Kissinger says, " The notion of justified pre- emption runs

> counter to modern international law, which sanctions the use of

force

> in self-defense only against actual -- not potential -- threats. "

> Kissinger also says, " American military intervention in Iraq would

be

> supported only grudgingly, if at all, by most European allies. "

>

>

> House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX-26) says, " I don't believe

> that America will justifiably make an unprovoked attack on another

> nation. It would not be consistent with what we have been as a

nation

> or what we should be as a nation. "

>

>

> Please critically examine the rationale for a war against Iraq and

> put the brakes on the Bush White House. You'll have my support if

you

> act to prevent this war.

>

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

> (your name)

> (your address)

>

> As you've probably already figured out, I don't think we have near

> enough grounds to justify the invasion of another country with all

> the attendent horrors, not only to our own men and women and those

of

> Iraq, but also to the millions of citizens of Israel and Jordan,

> Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the rest of the surrounding Arab world who

> also have so much to lose in an uncontrollable conflict such as

this

> one promises to be.

>

> Our political leadership is not presently willing, both in our eyes

> as well as those of our allies, to make the necessary followup

> commitments to Afghanistan, where we have already deeply entangled

> ourselves. Some of our " experts " maintain that we could be involved

> in expensive and labor intensive " nation building " in post-war

Iraq,

> despite the fact that we are refusing to engage in it in

> Afghanistan, for more than 10 years. Iraq is more than 10 times

the

> size of Afghanistan, and just as politically explosive and

unstable.

> Further, they lack the committed local ground forces that were so

> significant a contibution to our victory on the ground in

Afghanistan.

>

> It can be argued that the only reason that our leaders are

> suggesting that we have the political will and necessary commitment

> to such a similarly explosive and risky project in Iraq is that the

> Iraqis control enough oil to pay us for our efforts, both to invade

> them as well as to rebuild their country. We must ask ourselves if

> the value of potentially gaining control of this oil would be

enough

> to compensate us for the loss of possible 10's of thousands of

> American lives and 10's of billions of American dollars that we

might

> more successfully spend here at home?

>

> Do we really believe that Iraq 1/ is in possession of nuclear

weapons

> and 2/ that they are willing to put those weapons in the hands of

> Anti-American Islamist terrorists who would almost certainly use

them

> in such a way as to virtually guarantee the annhilation of Iraq's

> leaders as well as the majority of their people? With regards to

> question # 2, please bear in mind that the subsequent effects all

> over the Middle East would cause incalculable damage to these

> unstable countries: famines, radiation sicknesses, water pollution

> and other effects, financial and political, that we can only guess

at.

>

> Well, Friends, that pretty much covers my position.

>

> I hope you will seriously consider this petition and dial up

> http://www.moveon.org/nowar/ for further information and how to

use

> your influence with your friends and neighbors. The organizers

stress

> that they are going to present their petition all over the Senate

and

> the House on Aug. 28th, which is almost upon us. If you feel that

> you can sign this petition in good faith, please, send it to your

> Congressman as well as your Senators and do your part in posting it

> on other sites and other locations where it can do some good.

>

> Time is short. This vital matter is being considered right now, all

> over America. The national debate has begun. Let's not look back on

> this war in 2 years and have to ask ourselves what we might have

done

> to help our nation resolve it's difficulties with Iraq by other

more

> peaceful means.

>

> yours in the bonds,

> eric

[Guest guest]

Dear David

 

Thank you to have expressed your opinion which I share totally.

 

As long as we have not realized our self. it can be vain to speak as if.

When we are in the sea. it is time to swim, not to fly.

As long as we are IN this world of illusion, may be is it a not too bad solution to care at it, which does not prevent in the same time to try to get a better understanding of the "human condition"

 

Peace! peace! peace at any price is an easy position , very "politically and demagogically correct".

But, I am old enough to be able to use the ""if you could have killed Hitler before .." argument and similar mental thoughts ..., not only as an intellectual argument, but as an experience I lived and paid for in my flesh...I know, I am not the body and being in a concentration camp is just an illusion isn't?

 

This why I very much agree with you... despite the fact chador could be a nice uniform for all women and cutting theafs' hands could fix at low price the overpopulation problem in the occidental jails

 

Gerald

 

-

frostydk2002

Nisargadatta

Tuesday, August 27, 2002 12:06 AM

Re: Anti-War Petition

While new here, your post caught my attention.Aside from my "thoughts on the issue" which include the "if you could have killed Hitler before .." and similar mental thoughts ...Why seperate and take any "side" to this.I really do take Nisargadatta to heart. The world can take care of itself, and on Earth that always includes war. It is the way it is here.Better to "solve" our own riddle and become who we are.Once we get into trying to control the illusions on Earth we take sides and judge, and presto, we are into thought and things and once again the subject object world takes over.I prefere not to judge but maintain thw witness.But here is a though for you, a "future" illusion.Say the USA goes along with the group think you seem to have some affinity with, and we decide to do nothing about Iraq. May I mention that this happened with Hitler, Stalin, etc., tho they were obviously "harming" the world.This illusion then has Iraq using a nuke on Isreal, who retaliates with nukes, etc. Or say a nuke is brought into Los Angeles harbour and explodes.Could we have prevented this?Think think think.We live forever, each of us. I choose to live with what is, in love. And for me that includes as little thinking and speculating as I can.Everytime I get "political" I simply become aware of the thought and let it go. It is a bit of a struggle.Yours,DavidNisargadatta, "eblack101" <EBlackstead@c...> wrote:> Nisargadatta Group Friends,> > It seems to me that we should take at least a short break in our > discussions to consider another vital matter: our current national > debate on the purpose and value, both pro and con, of invading Irag, > particularly in light of the fact that, to date, all of our valuable > allies, both in the Middle East and in Europe are outspoken in their > opposition to our invasion plans. > > Until recently, all the petitions against our involvement in this > action that could cause the deaths of so many young Americans and > civilian Iraqis were much too tainted with anti-Republican or > Conservative rhetoric to merit much consideration by someone who > chose not to confuse his position on this potential war with > partisan politics. The petition that I'm including below seems to > avoid that problem, at least for me. > > I've been thinking about the issue of our potential involvement in a > war ever since 9/11. The Vietnamese War, which I came to vehemently > oppose, was begun under a smoke screen of media indifference and > political misrepresentation. I've had many opportunities to question, > when none of our politicians could subsequently rally themselves to > face the difficulties of removing us from that conflict, what might > have been the effect of our involvement if the American public had > considered what was involved BEFORE we were so inextricably entangled > in that "quagmire".> > An opportunity like that, unfortunately, looms before us now, as we > are certainly facing a situation both as morally questionable and as > strategically and politically dark and chaotic as Vietnam proved to > be.> > Here is the petition I'd like you to consider:> > PETITION LETTER> > TO: (your representatives)> FROM: (your name and email)> SUBJECT: No War on Iraq> __________> > Dear Representative,> > Without hard evidence that Iraq poses a clear and present danger to > the U.S., I urge you to act to prevent a war on Iraq. > > (Your personal note) Optional.> > The Bush White House is aggressively promoting a war on Iraq, against > the advice of its diplomats, and without strong support from the > American public or our allies. Such a war would likely undermine both > national and world security. Many of our young people, and likely > many more innocent Iraqis, would die. > > > As you know, even top Republican leaders are publicly questioning a > war:> > > Brent Scowcroft says a U.S. invasion of Iraq "could turn the whole > region into a cauldron and, thus, destroy the war on terrorism." He > also says "there is scant evidence to tie Saddam to terrorist > organizations, and even less to the Sept. 11 attacks."> > > Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) says the CIA has "absolutely no evidence" > that Iraq possesses or will soon possess nuclear weapons.> > > Henry Kissinger says, "The notion of justified pre- emption runs > counter to modern international law, which sanctions the use of force > in self-defense only against actual -- not potential -- threats." > Kissinger also says, "American military intervention in Iraq would be > supported only grudgingly, if at all, by most European allies." > > > House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX-26) says, "I don't believe > that America will justifiably make an unprovoked attack on another > nation. It would not be consistent with what we have been as a nation > or what we should be as a nation." > > > Please critically examine the rationale for a war against Iraq and > put the brakes on the Bush White House. You'll have my support if you > act to prevent this war.> > > > Sincerely, > > (your name)> (your address) > > As you've probably already figured out, I don't think we have near > enough grounds to justify the invasion of another country with all > the attendent horrors, not only to our own men and women and those of > Iraq, but also to the millions of citizens of Israel and Jordan, > Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the rest of the surrounding Arab world who > also have so much to lose in an uncontrollable conflict such as this > one promises to be.> > Our political leadership is not presently willing, both in our eyes > as well as those of our allies, to make the necessary followup > commitments to Afghanistan, where we have already deeply entangled > ourselves. Some of our "experts" maintain that we could be involved > in expensive and labor intensive "nation building" in post-war Iraq, > despite the fact that we are refusing to engage in it in > Afghanistan, for more than 10 years. Iraq is more than 10 times the > size of Afghanistan, and just as politically explosive and unstable. > Further, they lack the committed local ground forces that were so > significant a contibution to our victory on the ground in Afghanistan.> > It can be argued that the only reason that our leaders are > suggesting that we have the political will and necessary commitment > to such a similarly explosive and risky project in Iraq is that the > Iraqis control enough oil to pay us for our efforts, both to invade > them as well as to rebuild their country. We must ask ourselves if > the value of potentially gaining control of this oil would be enough > to compensate us for the loss of possible 10's of thousands of > American lives and 10's of billions of American dollars that we might > more successfully spend here at home?> > Do we really believe that Iraq 1/ is in possession of nuclear weapons > and 2/ that they are willing to put those weapons in the hands of > Anti-American Islamist terrorists who would almost certainly use them > in such a way as to virtually guarantee the annhilation of Iraq's > leaders as well as the majority of their people? With regards to > question # 2, please bear in mind that the subsequent effects all > over the Middle East would cause incalculable damage to these > unstable countries: famines, radiation sicknesses, water pollution > and other effects, financial and political, that we can only guess at.> > Well, Friends, that pretty much covers my position.> > I hope you will seriously consider this petition and dial up > http://www.moveon.org/nowar/ for further information and how to use > your influence with your friends and neighbors. The organizers stress > that they are going to present their petition all over the Senate and > the House on Aug. 28th, which is almost upon us. If you feel that > you can sign this petition in good faith, please, send it to your > Congressman as well as your Senators and do your part in posting it > on other sites and other locations where it can do some good. > > Time is short. This vital matter is being considered right now, all > over America. The national debate has begun. Let's not look back on > this war in 2 years and have to ask ourselves what we might have done > to help our nation resolve it's difficulties with Iraq by other more > peaceful means.> > yours in the bonds,> eric

[Guest guest]

War, and the Peace that " you know " ,

 

are not separate.

 

 

They are 2 sides of the same coin.

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

Better to " solve " our own riddle and become who we are.

 

David.

-------------

 

There is no becomming who we are.

 

That is what got us in all this trouble in the first place.

 

The becomming...... this/that, somebody/nobody, ad infinitum.

 

El

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

So what?... do you speack of experience, having reely experienced war and peace or is your answer emitted from a philosophical point of view?

 

-

el_wells_2002

Nisargadatta

Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:32 AM

Re: Anti-War Petition

War, and the Peace that "you know",are not separate.They are 2 sides of the same coin..

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta, corili <corili@r...> wrote:

 

> So what?... do you speack of experience, having reely

experienced war and peace or is your answer emitted from a

philosophical point of view?

 

-------------------------

 

Yes, I do speak from direct experience.

 

Clothed in adviata speak.

 

El

[Guest guest]

corili,

 

Go back to the smell of rotting flesh,

get into the smell deeply,

and realize there is no smell,

that your mind is playing tricks on you,

that there is no smell at all.

 

The way out is through.

 

El

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

Thank you

 

-

el_wells_2002

Nisargadatta

Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:36 PM

Re: Anti-War Petition

corili,Go back to the smell of rotting flesh,get into the smell deeply,and realize there is no smell,that your mind is playing tricks on you,that there is no smell at all.The way out is through.El.