Guest guest Posted September 30, 2002 Report Share Posted September 30, 2002 > There is no such *thing* as " I Am " , so how can > attention be brought to it? Bill, I appreciate the reply. I've been reading Aziz lately and he tends to objectify " I Am " so my language is probably representing this. I'm attempting to follow the Maharaj's teaching as outlined on this page: http://www.nirvikalpa.com/iam.htm with the main thrust being " focus your mind on 'I am', which is pure and simple being. " - Nisargadatta > By witnessing/experiencing/knowing each arising in > consciousness, and at the same time enquiring into > to source of the arising.... The language has my head hurting. You're saying that each time something arises make enquiry automatic with the arising of experience? > The *words* " I Am " are not important. It is the > inquiry that is important. The deep, deep inquiry. Kind of like a reaching, a striving, like having asked the question and waiting to hear the answer? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2002 Report Share Posted September 30, 2002 > Shawn [shawnregan] > > There is no such *thing* as " I Am " , so how can > > attention be brought to it? > Bill, I appreciate the reply. I've been reading Aziz lately and he > tends to objectify " I Am " so my language is probably representing > this. I'm attempting to follow the Maharaj's teaching as outlined on > this page: http://www.nirvikalpa.com/iam.htm with the main thrust > being > " focus your mind on 'I am', which is pure and simple being. " - > Nisargadatta Here he defines 'I Am' as " pure and simple being " . So, is " whatever arises in consciousness " the same as pure and simple being? Or is pure and simple being the source of what arises in consciousness? Either way, the inquiry must begin, as Pete said, by paying " ... complete attention to whatever comes to consciousness. " > > By witnessing/experiencing/knowing each arising in > > consciousness, and at the same time enquiring into > > to source of the arising.... > The language has my head hurting. You're saying that each time > something arises make enquiry automatic with the arising of > experience? Yes, but not as a struggle. I mean: Number one, be present with whatever arises. But be relaxed about it. Don't self-judge about " losing it " . Just keep coming back. The inquiry can't occur without the being present, so being present is fundamental. *When* being present " go into it " . Again, in a relaxed, fresh, open way. Explore. Be curious. Expect to enjoy this. The Inquiry doesn't mean something specific. We are not talking technique here. To enquire means to be curious, to " wonder " where all of this arises from. A comment by Nisargadatta that really stuck with me was when he pointed out that if I can perceive it then it is not me (because whatever is perceived is necessarily apart from the perceiver). So it becomes interesting. Whatever arises, what is deeper than that? So relax. Allow yourself to observe in fascination this ever-arising present, always new. And let yourself wonder about the Greatest Mystery of All: Who is it that experiences this ever-arising present? And the unwinding of that mystery goes very, very deep. Enjoy! -Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2002 Report Share Posted September 30, 2002 > > So, is " whatever arises in consciousness " the same as > pure and simple being? > > Or is pure and simple being the source of what arises > in consciousness? > > Either way, the inquiry must begin, as Pete said, by > paying " ... complete attention to whatever comes to > consciousness. " > Pure and simple being is pure awareness. The mind w/o any object of perception, w/o any thoughts, w/o feelings and emotions - attending only to itself, this is pure awareness -> the source of what arises in consciousness. The question is - is pure awareness empty and void? No, according to the Upanishads it is Fullness - - this Fullness is the I Am. Established in the Fullness of I Am - and performing action, whether it's the action of a monk or householder, this is self-realization. No action, thought, emotion or even the inertia of sleep can over shadow I Am That Fullness. Scripture makes it seem as though such a status is worthwhile (heh heh). Patanjali offers instruction in his Yoga Sutras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2002 Report Share Posted September 30, 2002 > Either way, the inquiry must begin, as Pete said, by > paying " ... complete attention to whatever comes to > consciousness. " Does this not contradict with NM? Actually NM seems to contradict himself (below) " Refuse all thoughts except one: the thought 'I am'. The mind will rebel in the beginning, but with patience and perseverance it will yield and keep quiet. " - Nisargadatta > > The language has my head hurting. You're saying that each time > > something arises make enquiry automatic with the arising of > > experience? > Yes, but not as a struggle. I mean: > Number one, be present with whatever arises. > But be relaxed about it. I've recently found this in my meditation. I was actually straining with focused attention. Kind of forcing it instead using " bare " attention. I think I understand what that means now. This practice, is it something that is done only when sitting in meditation or, like the Fourth Way's self remembering, should it be done throughout the day. Is it better to keep attention on " I am " as much as one can throughout the day (while still keeping a time for meditation). NM says: " You must watch yourself continuously - particularly your mind - moment by moment, missing nothing. This witnessing is essential for the separation of the self from the not-self. " About meditation NM says (which, to me, differs from staying with " I Am " ): " You begin by letting thoughts flow and watching them. The very observation slows down the mind till it stops altogether. Once the mind is quiet, keep it quiet. Don't get bored with peace, be in it, go deeper into it. " " Watch your thoughts as you watch the street traffic. People come and go; you register without response. " " Just turn away, look between the thoughts, rather than at the thoughts. When you happen to walk in a crowd you do not fight every man you meet - you just find your way between. " So are there 2 practices here? A meditation (watching thoughts) and a way of being ( " staying with I Am " ). Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 --- Shawn <shawnregan wrote: > meditation or, like the Fourth Way's self > remembering, should it be > done throughout the day. Is it better to keep > attention on " I am " as > much as one can throughout the day (while still > keeping a time for > meditation). NM says: > > " You must watch yourself continuously - particularly > your mind - > moment by moment, missing nothing. This witnessing > is essential for > the separation of the self from the not-self. " > > About meditation NM says (which, to me, differs from > staying with " I > Am " ): > > " You begin by letting thoughts flow and watching > them. The very > observation slows down the mind till it stops > altogether. Once the > mind is quiet, keep it quiet. Don't get bored with > peace, be in it, > go deeper into it. " > > " Watch your thoughts as you watch the street > traffic. People come and > go; you register without response. " > > " Just turn away, look between the thoughts, rather > than at the > thoughts. When you happen to walk in a crowd you do > not fight every > man you meet - you just find your way between. " > > So are there 2 practices here? A meditation > (watching thoughts) and a > way of being ( " staying with I Am " ). > > > Shawn Hi Shawn, Pete: It's very important to understand that remembering 'I am' is not repeating the thought 'I am' like a mantra. It's letting consciousness be empty of thought. When you catch yourself idly thinking, let the thought gently go and notice the spaces between the thoughts. Thinking might seem like a continues stream, but is not. It's a series of rapidly moving, but disconnected thoughts. Be attentive to the gaps. They will become progresivily longer. Those gaps are the self behind the contents of consciousness. All the contents of consciousness are microseconds still shots like a movie. Consciousness is the light. I think it was SNM who used that simile. New DSL Internet Access from SBC & http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 > Shawn [shawnregan] > > > Either way, the inquiry must begin, as Pete said, by > > paying " ... complete attention to whatever comes to > > consciousness. " > > Does this not contradict with NM? Actually NM seems to contradict > himself (below) > > " Refuse all thoughts except one: the thought 'I am'. The mind will > rebel in the beginning, but with patience and perseverance it will > yield and keep quiet. " - Nisargadatta I doesn't contradict because neither attempt to say " the way it is " . They are only suggestions for practice. There are many ways to practice. Here's another NM quote: " There is nothing to practise. To know yourself, be yourself. To be yourself, stop imagining yourself to be this or that. Just be. Let your true nature emerge. Don't disturb your mind with seeking " Nisargadatta Remember you are reading NM in translation. Two, the quotes are from dialogs. He spoke differently to different individuals. > > > The language has my head hurting. You're saying that each time > > > something arises make enquiry automatic with the arising of > > > experience? > > Yes, but not as a struggle. I mean: > > Number one, be present with whatever arises. > > But be relaxed about it. > > I've recently found this in my meditation. I was actually straining > with focused attention. Kind of forcing it instead using " bare " > attention. I think I understand what that means now. The straining you mention is what I was sensing. What you say here is wonderful > This practice, is it something that is done only when sitting in > meditation or, like the Fourth Way's self remembering, should it be > done throughout the day. Is it better to keep attention on " I am " as > much as one can throughout the day (while still keeping a time for > meditation). NM says: > > " You must watch yourself continuously - particularly your mind - > moment by moment, missing nothing. This witnessing is essential for > the separation of the self from the not-self. " So no, not just in sitting meditation, but rather " meditation without ceasing. " > About meditation NM says (which, to me, differs from staying with " I > Am " ): > > " You begin by letting thoughts flow and watching them. The very > observation slows down the mind till it stops altogether. Once the > mind is quiet, keep it quiet. Don't get bored with peace, be in it, > go deeper into it. " I love this quote! I love the part about slowing down. And I love the part: " Don't get bored with peace, be in it, go deeper into it. " My meditation today has been this very slowing down and going deep. > " Watch your thoughts as you watch the street traffic. People come and > go; you register without response. " > > " Just turn away, look between the thoughts, rather than at the > thoughts. When you happen to walk in a crowd you do not fight every > man you meet - you just find your way between. " > > So are there 2 practices here? A meditation (watching thoughts) and a > way of being ( " staying with I Am " ). No right and wrong here. For me the two practices are: 1. Notice the ever-arising of new moments. Each moment is always fresh. 2. Softly allow a " sinking deeper " into the moment. But don't analyze too much. What you say above about letting go of straining and getting to " bare attention " is beautiful. Just go with that. As in the NM quote I give above where says: " Don't disturb your mind with seeking. " -Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 > > > Pure and simple being is pure awareness. The mind > w/o any object of > perception, w/o any thoughts, w/o feelings and > emotions - attending > only to itself, this is pure awareness -> the source > of what arises > in consciousness. > The question is - is pure awareness empty and void? > No, according to > the Upanishads it is Fullness - - this Fullness is > the I Am. Pete: whether it's fullness or emptiness is not important to one fully established in it. That could only be relevant to one searshing for it. > > Established in the Fullness of I Am - and performing > action, whether > it's the action of a monk or householder, this is > self-realization. > No action, thought, emotion or even the inertia of > sleep can over > shadow I Am That Fullness. Scripture makes it seem > as though such a > status is worthwhile (heh heh). Patanjali offers > instruction in his > Yoga Sutras. Pete: And again one established there won't think I'm the fullness because what he is and is not can not be contained by words. Good post, Pete New DSL Internet Access from SBC & http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 when nisargadatta talks about attending to the sense 'i am' (without saying the words) this is the same as abiding in the Self. i believe ramana's self-inquiry also points to That. perhaps a simpler way to express it is that... meditate as consciousness on consciuosness nothing else. hur http://nisargadatta.net/IamThat1.html http://nisargadatta.net/IamThat2.html Nisargadatta, " Shawn " <shawnregan> wrote: > > Either way, the inquiry must begin, as Pete said, by > > paying " ... complete attention to whatever comes to > > consciousness. " > > Does this not contradict with NM? Actually NM seems to contradict > himself (below) > > " Refuse all thoughts except one: the thought 'I am'. The mind will > rebel in the beginning, but with patience and perseverance it will > yield and keep quiet. " - Nisargadatta > > > > > The language has my head hurting. You're saying that each time > > > something arises make enquiry automatic with the arising of > > > experience? > > Yes, but not as a struggle. I mean: > > Number one, be present with whatever arises. > > But be relaxed about it. > > I've recently found this in my meditation. I was actually straining > with focused attention. Kind of forcing it instead using " bare " > attention. I think I understand what that means now. > > > This practice, is it something that is done only when sitting in > meditation or, like the Fourth Way's self remembering, should it be > done throughout the day. Is it better to keep attention on " I am " as > much as one can throughout the day (while still keeping a time for > meditation). NM says: > > " You must watch yourself continuously - particularly your mind - > moment by moment, missing nothing. This witnessing is essential for > the separation of the self from the not-self. " > > About meditation NM says (which, to me, differs from staying with " I > Am " ): > > " You begin by letting thoughts flow and watching them. The very > observation slows down the mind till it stops altogether. Once the > mind is quiet, keep it quiet. Don't get bored with peace, be in it, > go deeper into it. " > > " Watch your thoughts as you watch the street traffic. People come and > go; you register without response. " > > " Just turn away, look between the thoughts, rather than at the > thoughts. When you happen to walk in a crowd you do not fight every > man you meet - you just find your way between. " > > So are there 2 practices here? A meditation (watching thoughts) and a > way of being ( " staying with I Am " ). > > > Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Beautiful. Hur Guler [hurg] Monday, September 30, 2002 8:34 PM Nisargadatta Re: Staying with " I Am " (Bill) when nisargadatta talks about attending to the sense 'i am' (without saying the words) this is the same as abiding in the Self. i believe ramana's self-inquiry also points to That. perhaps a simpler way to express it is that... meditate as consciousness on consciuosness nothing else. hur http://nisargadatta.net/IamThat1.html http://nisargadatta.net/IamThat2.html Nisargadatta, " Shawn " <shawnregan> wrote: > > Either way, the inquiry must begin, as Pete said, by > > paying " ... complete attention to whatever comes to > > consciousness. " > > Does this not contradict with NM? Actually NM seems to contradict > himself (below) > > " Refuse all thoughts except one: the thought 'I am'. The mind will > rebel in the beginning, but with patience and perseverance it will > yield and keep quiet. " - Nisargadatta > > > > > The language has my head hurting. You're saying that each time > > > something arises make enquiry automatic with the arising of > > > experience? > > Yes, but not as a struggle. I mean: > > Number one, be present with whatever arises. > > But be relaxed about it. > > I've recently found this in my meditation. I was actually straining > with focused attention. Kind of forcing it instead using " bare " > attention. I think I understand what that means now. > > > This practice, is it something that is done only when sitting in > meditation or, like the Fourth Way's self remembering, should it be > done throughout the day. Is it better to keep attention on " I am " as > much as one can throughout the day (while still keeping a time for > meditation). NM says: > > " You must watch yourself continuously - particularly your mind - > moment by moment, missing nothing. This witnessing is essential for > the separation of the self from the not-self. " > > About meditation NM says (which, to me, differs from staying with " I > Am " ): > > " You begin by letting thoughts flow and watching them. The very > observation slows down the mind till it stops altogether. Once the > mind is quiet, keep it quiet. Don't get bored with peace, be in it, > go deeper into it. " > > " Watch your thoughts as you watch the street traffic. People come and > go; you register without response. " > > " Just turn away, look between the thoughts, rather than at the > thoughts. When you happen to walk in a crowd you do not fight every > man you meet - you just find your way between. " > > So are there 2 practices here? A meditation (watching thoughts) and a > way of being ( " staying with I Am " ). > > > Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Nisargadatta, pete seesaw <seesaw1us> wrote: > > > > > Pure and simple being is pure awareness. The mind > > w/o any object of > > perception, w/o any thoughts, w/o feelings and > > emotions - attending > > only to itself, this is pure awareness -> the source > > of what arises > > in consciousness. > > The question is - is pure awareness empty and void? > > No, according to > > the Upanishads it is Fullness - - this Fullness is > > the I Am. > > Pete: whether it's fullness or emptiness is not > important to one fully established in it. That could > only be relevant to one searshing for it. > > > > > Established in the Fullness of I Am - and performing > > action, whether > > it's the action of a monk or householder, this is > > self-realization. > > No action, thought, emotion or even the inertia of > > sleep can over > > shadow I Am That Fullness. Scripture makes it seem > > as though such a > > status is worthwhile (heh heh). Patanjali offers > > instruction in his > > Yoga Sutras. > > Pete: And again one established there won't think I'm > the > fullness because what he is and is not can not be > contained by words. > > Good post, > > Pete > > ------------------------ Find the one who wants to be established, to be full and complete. Take an axe to him. There. Established. This is for you Dave, if you are still reading this forum! El .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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