Guest guest Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 " There is neither creation nor destruction, Neither destiny nor free-will; Neither path nor achievement; This is the final truth. " Sri Ramana Maharshi the last expression, the final truth, is probably the origin of ramesh balsekar's book " the final truth " and somehow over the years ramesh's 'final truth' over-emphasized the " no free-will " part of the paradox. traditionally the core message of advaita has been about the knowledge of one's identity and yet more and more i notice that with ramesh's teachings, the focus has been shifted and there has been an over-emphasis on the " no doer, no free-will " part. From the dualistic perspective " Thy will be done " is also the essence of most religions. This method seems to work for many seekers. On the other hand Advaita like the most mystical nondual schools points that the seeker is he who's searching of himself. He is the Truth. The focus shifts from a model of reality as governed by a personal God or impersonal Totality to one's identity as the Truth. This is not new. Even before the hindus added a large cast of divine actors such as Krishna and Shiva on the play, the old Hinduism was about Atman=Brahman. Ramesh says we're like the dream characters who " act as if " we have free will...do we have free will? i don't know...does anyone really know? it's only the mind in the waking state who claims that we're dream characters with or without free will. whether these sensations at the waking level are based on reality or on an illusion...i question the motivation behind applying the dream model literally in order to convince the seeker that there is no you...so the seeker can experience some sort of relief from the burden of individual existence. this reminds me of a photo taken by a tourist in india. it shows a cow pulling a heavy carriage. the tourist notes, " cows might be sacred but they still have to work! " do you think the cow is fantasizing any theories in an effort to lighten the burden of its individual existence? repeated claims of " there's no one here " and " no free-will " by the advaita bullies lead to a fundamentalist version of advaita which scare away the seekers who may discover that advaita is more than a mind trick to escape the burden of individual existence or an intellectual cover up to hide our social failures. hur ps. after the return of final truth, the revenge of final truth is in production, not to be confused by the son of final truth or the final truth strikes back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 yes. phil - <hur <Nisargadatta > Saturday, January 18, 2003 7:32 AM the return of final truth " There is neither creation nor destruction, Neither destiny nor free-will; Neither path nor achievement; This is the final truth. " Sri Ramana Maharshi the last expression, the final truth, is probably the origin of ramesh balsekar's book " the final truth " and somehow over the years ramesh's 'final truth' over-emphasized the " no free-will " part of the paradox. traditionally the core message of advaita has been about the knowledge of one's identity and yet more and more i notice that with ramesh's teachings, the focus has been shifted and there has been an over-emphasis on the " no doer, no free-will " part. From the dualistic perspective " Thy will be done " is also the essence of most religions. This method seems to work for many seekers. On the other hand Advaita like the most mystical nondual schools points that the seeker is he who's searching of himself. He is the Truth. The focus shifts from a model of reality as governed by a personal God or impersonal Totality to one's identity as the Truth. This is not new. Even before the hindus added a large cast of divine actors such as Krishna and Shiva on the play, the old Hinduism was about Atman=Brahman. Ramesh says we're like the dream characters who " act as if " we have free will...do we have free will? i don't know...does anyone really know? it's only the mind in the waking state who claims that we're dream characters with or without free will. whether these sensations at the waking level are based on reality or on an illusion...i question the motivation behind applying the dream model literally in order to convince the seeker that there is no you...so the seeker can experience some sort of relief from the burden of individual existence. this reminds me of a photo taken by a tourist in india. it shows a cow pulling a heavy carriage. the tourist notes, " cows might be sacred but they still have to work! " do you think the cow is fantasizing any theories in an effort to lighten the burden of its individual existence? repeated claims of " there's no one here " and " no free-will " by the advaita bullies lead to a fundamentalist version of advaita which scare away the seekers who may discover that advaita is more than a mind trick to escape the burden of individual existence or an intellectual cover up to hide our social failures. hur ps. after the return of final truth, the revenge of final truth is in production, not to be confused by the son of final truth or the final truth strikes back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 Dear Hur, Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler <hur@p...> " <hur@p...> wrote: " There is neither creation nor destruction, Neither destiny nor free-will; Neither path nor achievement; This is the final truth. " Sri Ramana Maharshi the last expression, the final truth, is probably the origin of ramesh balsekar's book " the final truth " and somehow over the years ramesh's 'final truth' over-emphasized the " no free-will " part of the paradox. traditionally the core message of advaita has been about the knowledge of one's identity and yet more and more i notice that with ramesh's teachings, the focus has been shifted and there has been an over-emphasis on the " no doer, no free-will " part. From the dualistic perspective " Thy will be done " is also the essence of most religions. This method seems to work for many seekers. On the other hand Advaita like the most mystical nondual schools points that the seeker is he who's searching of himself. He is the Truth. The focus shifts from a model of reality as governed by a personal God or impersonal Totality to one's identity as the Truth. This is not new. Even before the hindus added a large cast of divine actors such as Krishna and Shiva on the play, the old Hinduism was about Atman=Brahman. Ramesh says we're like the dream characters who " act as if " we have free will...do we have free will? i don't know...does anyone really know? it's only the mind in the waking state who claims that we're dream characters with or without free will. whether these sensations at the waking level are based on reality or on an illusion...i question the motivation behind applying the dream model literally in order to convince the seeker that there is no you...so the seeker can experience some sort of relief from the burden of individual existence. this reminds me of a photo taken by a tourist in india. it shows a cow pulling a heavy carriage. the tourist notes, " cows might be sacred but they still have to work! " do you think the cow is fantasizing any theories in an effort to lighten the burden of its individual existence? repeated claims of " there's no one here " and " no free-will " by the advaita bullies lead to a fundamentalist version of advaita which scare away the seekers who may discover that advaita is more than a mind trick to escape the burden of individual existence or an intellectual cover up to hide our social failures. hur ps. after the return of final truth, the revenge of final truth is in production, not to be confused by the son of final truth or the final truth strikes back. KKT: Thanks, Hur for this post. I enjoy greatly what you wrote because it echos also my own thought on this matter. What is << the revenge of final truth >> ? Peace, KKT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 Nisargadatta , " phamdluan2000 <phamdluan@a...> " <phamdluan@a...> wrote: > What is << the revenge of final truth >> ? > that part was a joke. it's hard to follow a book called final truth. star wars movies run out of sequels and they started doing prequels. how about " prelude to the final truth, before i got it, " and the writer can tell his story of how confused he was with the advaita talk...but then again would anyone buy it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 Hur, I wonder, is advaita a description of " I Am " consciousness, and not intended at all as a 'path' to get there. Of course advaita states there is no path, nothing to do, no one to walk it; but that is only true for someone who's there. There is no final truth, every consciousness has its own truth - trying to adopt the 'truth' of another state is a dishonest delusion. One can not practice advaita NOT because there is no practice, but because it would be a lie. Larry Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler <hur@p...> " <hur@p...> wrote: > " There is neither creation nor destruction, > Neither destiny nor free-will; > Neither path nor achievement; > This is the final truth. " > Sri Ramana Maharshi > > the last expression, the final truth, is probably the origin of > ramesh balsekar's book " the final truth " and somehow over the years > ramesh's 'final truth' over-emphasized the " no free-will " part of the > paradox. > > traditionally the core message of advaita has been about the > knowledge of one's identity and yet more and more i notice that with > ramesh's teachings, the focus has been shifted and there has been an > over-emphasis on the " no doer, no free-will " part. > > From the dualistic perspective " Thy will be done " is also the essence > of most religions. This method seems to work for many seekers. On > the other hand Advaita like the most mystical nondual schools points > that the seeker is he who's searching of himself. He is the Truth. > The focus shifts from a model of reality as governed by a personal > God or impersonal Totality to one's identity as the Truth. This is > not new. Even before the hindus added a large cast of divine actors > such as Krishna and Shiva on the play, the old Hinduism was about > Atman=Brahman. > > Ramesh says we're like the dream characters who " act as if " we have > free will...do we have free will? i don't know...does anyone really > know? it's only the mind in the waking state who claims that we're > dream characters with or without free will. whether these sensations > at the waking level are based on reality or on an illusion...i > question the motivation behind applying the dream model literally in > order to convince the seeker that there is no you...so the seeker can > experience some sort of relief from the burden of individual > existence. > > this reminds me of a photo taken by a tourist in india. it shows a > cow pulling a heavy carriage. the tourist notes, " cows might be > sacred but they still have to work! " do you think the cow is > fantasizing any theories in an effort to lighten the burden of its > individual existence? > > repeated claims of " there's no one here " and " no free-will " by the > advaita bullies lead to a fundamentalist version of advaita which > scare away the seekers who may discover that advaita is more than a > mind trick to escape the burden of individual existence or an > intellectual cover up to hide our social failures. > > hur > > ps. after the return of final truth, the revenge of final truth is in > production, not to be confused by the son of final truth or the final > truth strikes back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 and so you lie... .. - <inmadison <Nisargadatta > Sunday, January 19, 2003 6:11 AM Re: the return of final truth Hur, I wonder, is advaita a description of " I Am " consciousness, and not intended at all as a 'path' to get there. Of course advaita states there is no path, nothing to do, no one to walk it; but that is only true for someone who's there. There is no final truth, every consciousness has its own truth - trying to adopt the 'truth' of another state is a dishonest delusion. One can not practice advaita NOT because there is no practice, but because it would be a lie. Larry Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler <hur@p...> " <hur@p...> wrote: > " There is neither creation nor destruction, > Neither destiny nor free-will; > Neither path nor achievement; > This is the final truth. " > Sri Ramana Maharshi > > the last expression, the final truth, is probably the origin of > ramesh balsekar's book " the final truth " and somehow over the years > ramesh's 'final truth' over-emphasized the " no free-will " part of the > paradox. > > traditionally the core message of advaita has been about the > knowledge of one's identity and yet more and more i notice that with > ramesh's teachings, the focus has been shifted and there has been an > over-emphasis on the " no doer, no free-will " part. > > From the dualistic perspective " Thy will be done " is also the essence > of most religions. This method seems to work for many seekers. On > the other hand Advaita like the most mystical nondual schools points > that the seeker is he who's searching of himself. He is the Truth. > The focus shifts from a model of reality as governed by a personal > God or impersonal Totality to one's identity as the Truth. This is > not new. Even before the hindus added a large cast of divine actors > such as Krishna and Shiva on the play, the old Hinduism was about > Atman=Brahman. > > Ramesh says we're like the dream characters who " act as if " we have > free will...do we have free will? i don't know...does anyone really > know? it's only the mind in the waking state who claims that we're > dream characters with or without free will. whether these sensations > at the waking level are based on reality or on an illusion...i > question the motivation behind applying the dream model literally in > order to convince the seeker that there is no you...so the seeker can > experience some sort of relief from the burden of individual > existence. > > this reminds me of a photo taken by a tourist in india. it shows a > cow pulling a heavy carriage. the tourist notes, " cows might be > sacred but they still have to work! " do you think the cow is > fantasizing any theories in an effort to lighten the burden of its > individual existence? > > repeated claims of " there's no one here " and " no free-will " by the > advaita bullies lead to a fundamentalist version of advaita which > scare away the seekers who may discover that advaita is more than a > mind trick to escape the burden of individual existence or an > intellectual cover up to hide our social failures. > > hur > > ps. after the return of final truth, the revenge of final truth is in > production, not to be confused by the son of final truth or the final > truth strikes back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 dear larry, the funny thing about advaita is that...there's no practice but most seekers have to do plenty of practice to get there. even nisargadatta says that in his free time he meditated three years on " the sense of 'i am' without words. " sometimes you need the help of an attorney or a therapist to realize you really didn't need one. hur Nisargadatta , " trem23 <inmadison@h...> " <inmadison@h...> wrote: > Hur, > I wonder, is advaita a description of " I Am " consciousness, and not > intended at all as a 'path' to get there. > Of course advaita states there is no path, nothing to do, no one to > walk it; but that is only true for someone who's there. > > There is no final truth, every consciousness has its own truth - > trying to adopt the 'truth' of another state is a dishonest delusion. > > One can not practice advaita NOT because there is no practice, but > because it would be a lie. > Larry > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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