Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Don't worry, take it from me, you are not... **** how did you figured that out? mira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hey, I am no genius but I used to think I was enlightened. I have a Guru and one of her devotees told her about he experience and said, " I experienced the Divine Mother or the Self " and my Guru said, " Wonderful " and then the devotee said, " Do you think it was true? " So the Guru said, well, once the devotee is not sure of her own experience, then what can be said about its truth? So, there is no way someone else can tell you that you are enlightened I don't think. And on the other hand I also think that if someone tells you that you are not and you know you are... then it won't bother you at all. Once upon a time when I was younger, someone said something to me on a contruction job site that was 'teasing' but it hurt. This old man said, " if it wasn't in you, it wouldn't hurt " . So... the only way that " Words will never hurt you " is when you Know they aren't true. Anyway, when I posted what I posted, I didn't post it to anyone in particular and didn't make it too specific so anyone could project whatever they wanted onto it... I was goofing around and still did it with almost no thinking ... sort of reactive or being funny.. For me, I don't believe I am " Full Blown Enlightened " . Yet, I am a lot 'Lighter' than I was ... so what does that make me? I don't know really. I seem to know a lot less... and it feels a lot better! Yet, I am on the spiritual Path and I know people who are NOT on any spiritual path who don't care about any spiritual path who appear to be Lighter, more in the flow... easy than me! so... For me to claim I am enlightened would be koo koo I think... I know how 'uneasy' I am. I don't care about being enlightened so much anymore. What I care about is not being rubbed by my erroneous beliefs about myself. I care about dissolving some of my opposition to reality... I don't care too much, yet i keep on being aware of how I oppose reality and I think it helps it to ease up a bit. I guess its part of aging, alzheimers whatever... Paul Nisargadatta , " Athanor " <athanor@c...> wrote: > Don't worry, take it from me, you are not... > > > **** how did you figured that out? > mira > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hi Paul, That was a great post. I know you are enlightened sometimes because we all are, sometimes. Some more frequently than others. Even Christ had his bad moments. He flogged the merchants in the temple. He questioned the wisdom of his crucifixion on the cross. There is no 100% E. E is just a color (white) of the palette, in a multicolor painting. The more we accept the full range of colors, the whiter we become because white is the blending of all colors. I'm curious, why did you think you were enlightened, and what made you change your mind? Pete --- " Bondzai <bondzai " <bondzai wrote: > Hey, I am no genius but I used to think I was > enlightened. I have a > Guru and one of her devotees told her about he > experience and > said, " I experienced the Divine Mother or the Self " > and my Guru > said, " Wonderful " and then the devotee said, " Do you > think it was > true? " So the Guru said, well, once the devotee is > not sure of her > own experience, then what can be said about its > truth? > > So, there is no way someone else can tell you that > you are > enlightened I don't think. And on the other hand I > also think that > if someone tells you that you are not and you know > you are... then it > won't bother you at all. > > Once upon a time when I was younger, someone said > something to me on > a contruction job site that was 'teasing' but it > hurt. This old man > said, " if it wasn't in you, it wouldn't hurt " . > So... > > the only way that " Words will never hurt you " is > when you Know they > aren't true. > > Anyway, when I posted what I posted, I didn't post > it to anyone in > particular and didn't make it too specific so anyone > could project > whatever they wanted onto it... I was goofing > around and still did > it with almost no thinking ... sort of reactive or > being funny.. > > > > For me, I don't believe I am " Full Blown > Enlightened " . Yet, I am a > lot 'Lighter' than I was ... so what does that make > me? I don't > know really. I seem to know a lot less... and it > feels a lot better! > > Yet, I am on the spiritual Path and I know people > who are NOT on any > spiritual path who don't care about any spiritual > path who appear to > be Lighter, more in the flow... easy than me! > so... For me to claim > I am enlightened would be koo koo I think... I know > how 'uneasy' I > am. I don't care about being enlightened so much > anymore. What I > care about is not being rubbed by my erroneous > beliefs about myself. > I care about dissolving some of my opposition to > reality... I don't > care too much, yet i keep on being aware of how I > oppose reality and > I think it helps it to ease up a bit. > > I guess its part of aging, alzheimers whatever... > > Paul > > Nisargadatta , " Athanor " > <athanor@c...> wrote: > > Don't worry, take it from me, you are not... > > > > > > **** how did you figured that out? > > mira > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Pete, Well for me ... Why did you think you were enlightened and what made you change your mind? OK... I was learning that everyone was controlled by God and then things seemed kind of weird... like there was only me and God left. I considered everyone outside of my control to be controlled by God. I learned this from people in AA. This is based on the wisdom from the Serenity Prayer.... God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, this was explained as everything but me (I know I am in the mix too now). Then, coincident with the me and God experience, I met my Guru (this was back in 86). My Guru said, " Love Yourself, Honor YourSelf, God lives within you as you " and along with this the Guru said, " That joy in your heart is God, repeat the mantra and identify with it " . When I did that, my heart exploded with light and bliss. I found myself. Other people even told me I had changed. I had love within without needing an external source (I previously had the source concept for my love inverted). So... since then I have continued on the path and the enlightenment experience and Kundalini experience has gone in and out... and I have fallen back into some dark ways and come back out of them and 'grown' or become smaller in my opinions... and now am learning still... So, I know about my fears. I face them (to some extent) and want to uncover all my false beliefs supporting them... Since I do have fears, I figure I can't be " Full Blown " if there is some sort of state of perfection. I can accept that if everything is perfect just the way it is... then I can be that kind of perfect... Sort of like being a perfect asshole. But if it means in unending bliss with unending drunken ecstacy and no concern for here or later or the hereafter and no requirements to please others and all that good stuff of egolessness.. I know I fall short.. So, even though I have had events and even long term periods of bliss, I also know there is still lots of uncovering of my own fears that can occur so that I can be totally free. I know I am not free from conditioning... so I figure I am not enlightened. Plus, I have had experiences of my inner self flooding with light (after chanting, or when meditating or contemplating) and I don't live in that sort of state all the time or very much at all... I imagine that truly liberated people are drunk on love all the time and have no fear. I perceive a gap from That.. Therefore I must not be enlightened. Does that make sense? I prefer the model... " Progress not Perfection " yet I can also accept the model and reality " Everything is perfect just the way it is... Don't Change! I love you just the way you are " When I am becoming a normal or easygoing person now.... and am obviously less burdened, hard and crusty than I was 17 years ago at the time of a spiritual awakening which was a super whammy event.... it boggles my mind just how dark I was before starting on the path. And even makes me realize just how much freer I and other people can be. I guess the new name for me disease is A.D.D. Attention Deficit Disorder..... and the old name is also A.D.D. or as they say ... just Another Darn Drunk Paul... A guy who views enlightenment as being drunk all the time Nisargadatta , pete seesaw <seesaw1us> wrote: > Hi Paul, > That was a great post. I know you are enlightened > sometimes because we all are, sometimes. Some more > frequently than others. Even Christ had his bad > moments. He flogged the merchants in the temple. He > questioned the wisdom of his crucifixion on the cross. > > There is no 100% E. E is just a color (white) of the > palette, in a multicolor painting. The more we accept > the full range of colors, the whiter we become because > white is the blending of all colors. > > I'm curious, why did you think you were enlightened, > and what made you change your mind? > > Pete > --- " Bondzai <bondzai> " <bondzai> > wrote: > > Hey, I am no genius but I used to think I was > > enlightened. I have a > > Guru and one of her devotees told her about he > > experience and > > said, " I experienced the Divine Mother or the Self " > > and my Guru > > said, " Wonderful " and then the devotee said, " Do you > > think it was > > true? " So the Guru said, well, once the devotee is > > not sure of her > > own experience, then what can be said about its > > truth? > > > > So, there is no way someone else can tell you that > > you are > > enlightened I don't think. And on the other hand I > > also think that > > if someone tells you that you are not and you know > > you are... then it > > won't bother you at all. > > > > Once upon a time when I was younger, someone said > > something to me on > > a contruction job site that was 'teasing' but it > > hurt. This old man > > said, " if it wasn't in you, it wouldn't hurt " . > > So... > > > > the only way that " Words will never hurt you " is > > when you Know they > > aren't true. > > > > Anyway, when I posted what I posted, I didn't post > > it to anyone in > > particular and didn't make it too specific so anyone > > could project > > whatever they wanted onto it... I was goofing > > around and still did > > it with almost no thinking ... sort of reactive or > > being funny.. > > > > > > > > For me, I don't believe I am " Full Blown > > Enlightened " . Yet, I am a > > lot 'Lighter' than I was ... so what does that make > > me? I don't > > know really. I seem to know a lot less... and it > > feels a lot better! > > > > Yet, I am on the spiritual Path and I know people > > who are NOT on any > > spiritual path who don't care about any spiritual > > path who appear to > > be Lighter, more in the flow... easy than me! > > so... For me to claim > > I am enlightened would be koo koo I think... I know > > how 'uneasy' I > > am. I don't care about being enlightened so much > > anymore. What I > > care about is not being rubbed by my erroneous > > beliefs about myself. > > I care about dissolving some of my opposition to > > reality... I don't > > care too much, yet i keep on being aware of how I > > oppose reality and > > I think it helps it to ease up a bit. > > > > I guess its part of aging, alzheimers whatever... > > > > Paul > > > > Nisargadatta , " Athanor " > > <athanor@c...> wrote: > > > Don't worry, take it from me, you are not... > > > > > > > > > **** how did you figured that out? > > > mira > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 --- " Bondzai <bondzai " <bondzai wrote: >> I imagine that truly liberated people are drunk on > love all the time > and have no fear. I perceive a gap from That.. > Therefore I must not > be enlightened. > > Does that make sense? P: All the time, doesn't exist. Whether it's love, or bliss it will fade, change, vanish from view and return. Anything that you do constantly will fade from consciousness. Like breathing, you are doing it all the time, without being aware you are doing it. Mental fears, worries, anxiety disappear. Personal Bad news become impersonal, like hearing about a plane crash. You feel bad for those that were killed, but it doesn't ruin your day. The main thing is not to worry about how your mind and body will react to what happens next. To have the unshakable assurance that whatever you do, will be not only the right thing, but the only thing you could have done. Pete Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Peter: Right, well as all these things such as personal bad news becoming impersonal and fear going away, then it is enlightenment.. but while having personal bad news ever to any extent and also fears... then I would say that is 'not full blown enlightenment'... What is interesting for me is that once reaching a new level of freedomo and serenity, shortly thereafter I also perceive a new level of hidden submerged unresolved fears that can be addressed. Many refer to this phenomenon as: More will be revealed This is in the process of " Uncover, Discover, Discard " .... I like Charlotte Joko Beck's description of five stages of enlightenment. I imagine she is quite evolved. Anyone on the path who has attained any freedom reviewing her dharma talks must see that. She doesn't claim to be at that 5th level. Maybe fourth... and Buddha is at fifth. She does describe five levels as a way of people sort of being able to gage where they are on the path... and the years of awareness practice it takes to get there. Most of what the gage seems to be is to do with how often 'stuckness' occurs. I guess the fifth level would be like 'never'. The fourth would be rarely. The third would be sometimes. The second would be most of the time. The first would be almost allways (yet you had an enlightenment experience). And before the First would be " Pre-Path " or before awareness practice. Since this is an interesting topic, maybe I can dig up where she writes about these stages of enlightenment because I only paraphrased a little of what I remember but hers was quite descriptive. Its a different way of looking at it. Maybe the Zen people look at 'what is enlightenment' as different than 'Advaitins'. A favorite Zen teacher of mine is Cheri Huber. She says: Don't take anything personally, Believe Nothing, Pay attention to everything Well, I would agree that if one is doing those three things.... then that would be enlightenment. I would challenge anyone to be in that experience all of the time. It must require a lot of dedicated practice and or an act of grace (miracle). I also remember a story of a Zen student who went off to be a teacher, but visited a Master who asked him... When you came up to visit me, before stepping into my home, where did you put your umbrella in relation to your shoes? The student realized he was unaware of exactly what he did and based on that he understood he needed more awareness practice (He was not a Master) and practiced ten more years before teaching. I guess it is a different way of looking at things. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Thanks for the laugh this morning! : ) ******************************************** I don't care about being enlightened so much anymore. > I guess its part of aging, alzheimers whatever... > > Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Hi Paul, To find anything, the first step is to know what you're looking for. No one can get enlightenement because we were born that way. The only thing we lacked was functionality. To learn how to function we were taught a personal view point. So, we are not looking to acquire anything, but to widen this personal stance. The only thing we have to do is relax, accept everything, including our limitations, accept that there is no perfect state, allow change to happen inside and outside ( they are both the same) don't cling, relax, just be attentive and enjoy the ride. A one year old is at the 5th degree. Degrees are just another hindrance, another excuse to strive, cling and fuzz. Pete --- " Bondzai <bondzai " <bondzai wrote: > Peter: > > Right, well as all these things such as personal bad > news becoming > impersonal and fear going away, then it is > enlightenment.. but while > having personal bad news ever to any extent and also > fears... then I > would say that is 'not full blown enlightenment'... > > > What is interesting for me is that once reaching a > new level of > freedomo and serenity, shortly thereafter I also > perceive a new level > of hidden submerged unresolved fears that can be > addressed. > > Many refer to this phenomenon as: More will be > revealed > > This is in the process of " Uncover, Discover, > Discard " > > ... > > I like Charlotte Joko Beck's description of five > stages of > enlightenment. I imagine she is quite evolved. > Anyone on the path > who has attained any freedom reviewing her dharma > talks must see > that. She doesn't claim to be at that 5th level. > Maybe fourth... and > Buddha is at fifth. She does describe five levels as > a way of people > sort of being able to gage where they are on the > path... and the > years of awareness practice it takes to get there. > Most of what the > gage seems to be is to do with how often 'stuckness' > occurs. I guess > the fifth level would be like 'never'. The fourth > would be rarely. > The third would be sometimes. The second would be > most of the time. > The first would be almost allways (yet you had an > enlightenment > experience). And before the First would be > " Pre-Path " or before > awareness practice. > > Since this is an interesting topic, maybe I can dig > up where she > writes about these stages of enlightenment because I > only paraphrased > a little of what I remember but hers was quite > descriptive. Its a > different way of looking at it. Maybe the Zen > people look at 'what > is enlightenment' as different than 'Advaitins'. > > A favorite Zen teacher of mine is Cheri Huber. She > says: > > Don't take anything personally, Believe Nothing, Pay > attention to > everything > > Well, I would agree that if one is doing those three > things.... then > that would be enlightenment. I would challenge > anyone to be in that > experience all of the time. It must require a lot > of dedicated > practice and or an act of grace (miracle). > > I also remember a story of a Zen student who went > off to be a > teacher, but visited a Master who asked him... > > When you came up to visit me, before stepping into > my home, where did > you put your umbrella in relation to your shoes? > The student > realized he was unaware of exactly what he did and > based on that he > understood he needed more awareness practice (He was > not a Master) > and practiced ten more years before teaching. > > I guess it is a different way of looking at things. > > Paul > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.