Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Aloha, I am new to this list. Been reading lots of " Mr. Natural " lately, mostly on the web. He's great... I've also been considering this " world of opposites " and find that it seems to be nothing but concepts. The world of opposites exists in the mind only, not in reality or even real life. I find that usually people who get into this Advaita stuff get a bit " concepty " , if I can coin a new word. Anyway, my take on this is just that, the world of opposies *IS* an illusion in that it broken down and pulled apart by the mind. Yes? Namast Shawn on 1/23/03 11:29 AM, pete seesaw at seesaw1us wrote: > > --- " trem23 <inmadison " > <inmadison wrote: > > Damn! That's a great paragraph. I wish I had said > that. Maybe i did. > > Pete > > > > " I Am " unbounded Silence on one >> hand but the world >> in which I experience is partitioned, is pairs of >> opposites, is >> constantly changing and flowing. The train roars - I >> look out the >> window. Who's driving this thing? Enlightenment - >> it's not a job, its >> an adventure. >> >> Larry >> >> Nisargadatta , " Athanor " >> <athanor@c...> wrote: >>> dear Hur, >>> >>> since you're asking for a more serious response, >> let's talk about >> the >>> question first. doesn't your question assume that >> one has to claim >>> one is enlightened already in order to answer this >> question? on >>> these lists this is a risky claim to make since >> there'll always be >>> someone who'll say, " no you are not! but i am. >> you're doing it all >>> wrong and this is how you do it... " >>> >>> ******** i am not claiming that i am enlightened; >> i am too young >> for that and i think i have a lot more to do before >> that.. God help >> me, i don't know even if i want to be!! there are >> people who claim to >> be and maybe they are, and there are people who >> doesn't claim and >> they are.. or maybe they are not in both cases.. i >> asked the question >> because i am curious about how does one enlightened >> person should be >> (and maybe here are some enlightened persons who >> could give a steight >> answer?).. i guess that the people on this list red >> at least " I am >> That " of Nisargadatta, so i guess that here should >> be some more >> answers.. >>> >>> >>> i feel that enlightenment is a rare event...though >> on these lists >>> you'll meet many who truly have deep >> understanding. are they >>> enlightened? i have no idea and i never question >> anyone's >>> enlightenment...besides how could i possibly know? >> >>> >>> ***** so, do you see my dificulty in >> understanding? there are so >> many words, and so many concepts that don't >> corespond to the >> reality.. those terms and those words that at the >> first look seem to >> make sense, after i look better, i realise that i >> don't know what it >> means.. i can't find an image to associate those >> words with.. >>> what is enlightenment anyway?? >>> >>> personally i don't feel enlightened and i'm not >> bothered by that >>> either but what bugs me is people who need >> validation to the extent >>> that they turn into advaita bullies. i have a >> couple enlightened >>> friends but they don't claim to be enlightened. >> then why have they >>> appeared enlightened...to me? because it is >> always peaceful to be >> in >>> their presence. >>> >>> **** that's what i was saying a couple of days >> ago.. i have some >> friends too that are very close to my heart and i >> feel very peacefull >> when i am around them.. i can always talk with them >> about absolutely >> anything, and gather together, share experiences and >> questions.. but, >> as i came to know some Great people as Nisargadatta, >> Krishnamurti and >> other who are still living, i was wondering why are >> they enlightened, >> how can i recognise an enlightened person? >>> >>> of course the enlightened people come in all >> shapes, sizes and >>> personality types, not just the peaceful types. >> some of them can >> be >>> fiery and can yell at you if you insist on not >> getting it...and >>> that's exactly what some people may need. >>> >>> **** i guess those guys are the funny ones.... >>> mira >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been >> removed] >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 > Anyway, my take on this is just that, the world of opposies *IS* an illusion > in that it broken down and pulled apart by the mind. > Yes? Yes and no - - To tell a starving homeless child in poverty that his life is an illusion is cruel - and to then tell them it's all in his mind is even more mean spirited (I know that's not what you meant). Yes, from Vedanta, the world of opposites is an illusion, however, from someone in the firm grip of the illusion - it is very real. Vedanta uses the analogy of the rope and the snake. In the darkness, the rope looks like a snake - and so all the fear and comotion arises. While with sufficient light (consciousness) we can see that the snake is really a rope - in the darkness the snake is real. From the darkness to claim the snake is really a rope is a false claim (no less delusional than pronouncing the rope as a snake). Knowledge (how we appreciate our self/world)is structured in consciousness. If you want to change your knowledge, you have to change your consciousness. So offer the child a plate of food, and the means to smash the illusion. This goes much further than claiming there is no snake. namaste, larry Note: that child is you and me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 on 1/23/03 2:40 PM, trem23 <inmadison at inmadison wrote: >> Anyway, my take on this is just that, the world of opposies *IS* > an illusion >> in that it broken down and pulled apart by the mind. >> Yes? > > Yes and no - - > > To tell a starving homeless child in poverty that his life is an > illusion is cruel - and to then tell them it's all in his mind is > even more mean spirited (I know that's not what you meant). This is always the arguement and the out ragious claim is that the apparent suffering is only apparent. Talking about this on this e-list is not denying a child food. Who are you angry with? > Yes, from Vedanta, the world of opposites is an illusion, however, > from someone in the firm grip of the illusion - it is very real. > Vedanta uses the analogy of the rope and the snake. In the darkness, > the rope looks like a snake - and so all the fear and comotion > arises. While with sufficient light (consciousness) we can see that > the snake is really a rope - in the darkness the snake is real. >> From the darkness to claim the snake is really a rope is a false > claim (no less delusional than pronouncing the rope as a snake). Pointing to a rope in the darkness, I say it is a rope...where is the harm? You say you want to believe it is a snake and I am harming your dillusion? > Knowledge (how we appreciate our self/world)is structured in > consciousness. If you want to change your knowledge, you have to > change your consciousness. You cannot do that. You can only understand. > So offer the child a plate of food, and the means to smash the > illusion. This goes much further than claiming there is no snake. > > namaste, > larry > > Note: that child is you and me! So, are you pitting activism against advaita? I don't understand, you think all these gurus should be feeding starving people instead of doing what they do or did? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 My response is intertwined below. Nisargadatta , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 1/23/03 2:40 PM, trem23 <inmadison@h...> at inmadison@h... > wrote: > > >> Anyway, my take on this is just that, the world of opposies *IS* > > an illusion > >> in that it broken down and pulled apart by the mind. > >> Yes? > > > > Yes and no - - > > > > To tell a starving homeless child in poverty that his life is an > > illusion is cruel - and to then tell them it's all in his mind is > > even more mean spirited (I know that's not what you meant). > > This is always the arguement and the out ragious claim is that the apparent > suffering is only apparent. Talking about this on this e-list is not denying > a child food. Who are you angry with? > It's not about denying children food, it's about whether the world is an illusion or not. You suggested it is an illusion caused by the activity of the mind. > > > > Yes, from Vedanta, the world of opposites is an illusion, however, > > from someone in the firm grip of the illusion - it is very real. > > Vedanta uses the analogy of the rope and the snake. In the darkness, > > the rope looks like a snake - and so all the fear and comotion > > arises. While with sufficient light (consciousness) we can see that > > the snake is really a rope - in the darkness the snake is real. > >> From the darkness to claim the snake is really a rope is a false > > claim (no less delusional than pronouncing the rope as a snake). > > Pointing to a rope in the darkness, I say it is a rope...where is the harm? > You say you want to believe it is a snake and I am harming your dillusion? > To " know " it a snake but to call it a rope is just a delusion. Or perhaps one is praticing. However, calling it a rope doesn't make it so. > > > > Knowledge (how we appreciate our self/world)is structured in > > consciousness. If you want to change your knowledge, you have to > > change your consciousness. > > You cannot do that. You can only understand. > Following the Vedanta analogy, understanding will change the snake. Red snake, blue snake, etc. All sorts of snake experts can be consulted. Classes in snake can be taken. Only consciousness will reveal the rope (again following the analogy). > > > So offer the child a plate of food, and the means to smash the > > illusion. This goes much further than claiming there is no snake. > > > > namaste, > > larry > > > > Note: that child is you and me! > > So, are you pitting activism against advaita? I don't understand, you think > all these gurus should be feeding starving people instead of doing what they > do or did? > > Shawn When you are hungry, feed yourself. If you find someone hungry, offer them food. If you long for liberation, smash the illusion. My use of the analogy had no room for gurus or activists. I'll work them in next time. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 on 1/23/03 4:01 PM, trem23 <inmadison at inmadison wrote: > My response is intertwined below. > > Nisargadatta , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: >> on 1/23/03 2:40 PM, trem23 <inmadison@h...> at inmadison@h... >> wrote: >> >>>> Anyway, my take on this is just that, the world of opposies *IS* >>> an illusion >>>> in that it broken down and pulled apart by the mind. >>>> Yes? >>> >>> Yes and no - - >>> >>> To tell a starving homeless child in poverty that his life is an >>> illusion is cruel - and to then tell them it's all in his mind is >>> even more mean spirited (I know that's not what you meant). >> >> This is always the arguement and the out ragious claim is that the > apparent >> suffering is only apparent. Talking about this on this e-list is > not denying >> a child food. Who are you angry with? >> > > It's not about denying children food, it's about whether the world > is an illusion or not. You suggested it is an illusion caused by the > activity of the mind. Yes. You have heard this before? I read on a previous post that you have been reding this stuff for years. Are you mad at this assertion? Surely you have heard of this before? > Yes, from Vedanta, the world of opposites is an illusion, > however, >>> from someone in the firm grip of the illusion - it is very real. >>> Vedanta uses the analogy of the rope and the snake. In the > darkness, >>> the rope looks like a snake - and so all the fear and comotion >>> arises. While with sufficient light (consciousness) we can see > that >>> the snake is really a rope - in the darkness the snake is real. No. it is real or not, not sometimes this , sometimes that. Ignorance results in wrong perception of a ROPE. >>>> From the darkness to claim the snake is really a rope is a false >>> claim (no less delusional than pronouncing the rope as a snake). >> >> Pointing to a rope in the darkness, I say it is a rope...where is > the harm? >> You say you want to believe it is a snake and I am harming your > dillusion? >> > > To " know " it a snake but to call it a rope is just a delusion. Or > perhaps one is praticing. However, calling it a rope doesn't make > it so. It is the nature of the mind to fight, to argue, to draw boudaries, take sides and to create wars where there are none. I have seen without a doubt that no one is really suffering, no one has EVER suffered. I don't expect you to believe it, indeed ...your job is to feed people or find out if it is true (or both;)). Suffering is an illusion, but that does not mean I don't feel pain when I stub my toe. It is because of our false identification one thinks otherwise. Even if you feed the world, there is diease and old age and death. Will you cure this? It is divine theater, nothing more. And this knowledge is not for everyone, it can be dangerous. >>> Knowledge (how we appreciate our self/world)is structured in >>> consciousness. If you want to change your knowledge, you have to >>> change your consciousness. >> >> You cannot do that. You can only understand. >> > > Following the Vedanta analogy, understanding will change the snake. > Red snake, blue snake, etc. All sorts of snake experts can be > consulted. Classes in snake can be taken. Only consciousness will > reveal the rope (again following the analogy). Find the one who suffers. What is consciousness? Do you disagree with those sages who say it is Maya? Why are you on this list? Looking for something? Understanding does not turn a nonexistent snake into something else. That is like saying the wound will heal from the snake bite. There is no snake, no wound. Even if I don't see the rope, if someone does who I trust will not mislead me, then it is a great benefit to hear that it is not a snake as my fears and panic lessen immediately. And I will try to look more closely... >>> So offer the child a plate of food, and the means to smash the >>> illusion. This goes much further than claiming there is no snake. >>> >>> namaste, >>> larry Interesting you use the word " smash. " If you want to do good, be my guest. Most do-gooders just make more trouble. They want to tell everyone else how to live. Is this love? >>> Note: that child is you and me! >> >> So, are you pitting activism against advaita? I don't understand, > you think >> all these gurus should be feeding starving people instead of doing > what they >> do or did? >> >> Shawn > > When you are hungry, feed yourself. If you find someone hungry, > offer them food. If you long for liberation, smash the illusion. My > use of the analogy had no room for gurus or activists. I'll work > them in next time. > > Larry Hi Larry, nice to meet you. Ahimsa, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Again, my thoughts intertwined: Nisargadatta , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 1/23/03 4:01 PM, trem23 <inmadison@h...> at inmadison@h... > wrote: > > > My response is intertwined below. > > > > Nisargadatta , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > >> on 1/23/03 2:40 PM, trem23 <inmadison@h...> at inmadison@h... > >> wrote: > >> > >>>> Anyway, my take on this is just that, the world of opposies *IS* > >>> an illusion > >>>> in that it broken down and pulled apart by the mind. > >>>> Yes? > >>> > >>> Yes and no - - > >>> > >>> To tell a starving homeless child in poverty that his life is an > >>> illusion is cruel - and to then tell them it's all in his mind is > >>> even more mean spirited (I know that's not what you meant). > >> > >> This is always the arguement and the out ragious claim is that the > > apparent > >> suffering is only apparent. Talking about this on this e-list is > > not denying > >> a child food. Who are you angry with? > >> > > > > It's not about denying children food, it's about whether the world > > is an illusion or not. You suggested it is an illusion caused by the > > activity of the mind. > > Yes. You have heard this before? I read on a previous post that you have > been reding this stuff for years. > > Are you mad at this assertion? Surely you have heard of this before? If you reread my posts - you'll see I am agreeing with this assertion. I am only clarifying it to say that the assertion is only accurate (or should I say honest) from Vedanta. Vedanta is more than a philosophy, it is a state of existence which only allows for the Existence of Unity. > > > > Yes, from Vedanta, the world of opposites is an illusion, > > however, > >>> from someone in the firm grip of the illusion - it is very real. > >>> Vedanta uses the analogy of the rope and the snake. In the > > darkness, > >>> the rope looks like a snake - and so all the fear and comotion > >>> arises. While with sufficient light (consciousness) we can see > > that > >>> the snake is really a rope - in the darkness the snake is real. > > No. it is real or not, not sometimes this , sometimes that. Ignorance > results in wrong perception of a ROPE. According to Vedanta, the world of opposites is neither real nor unreal, it is an illusion. An illusion that can be " smashed " by Knowledge. ( " Smashed " is my word.) > > >>>> From the darkness to claim the snake is really a rope is a false > >>> claim (no less delusional than pronouncing the rope as a snake). > >> > >> Pointing to a rope in the darkness, I say it is a rope...where is > > the harm? > >> You say you want to believe it is a snake and I am harming your > > dillusion? > >> > > > > To " know " it a snake but to call it a rope is just a delusion. Or > > perhaps one is praticing. However, calling it a rope doesn't make > > it so. > > It is the nature of the mind to fight, to argue, to draw boudaries, take > sides and to create wars where there are none. > Certainly this is the nature of small minds. > I have seen without a doubt that no one is really suffering, no one has EVER > suffered. I don't expect you to believe it, indeed ...your job is to feed > people or find out if it is true (or both;)). Suffering is an illusion, but > that does not mean I don't feel pain when I stub my toe. It is because of > our false identification one thinks otherwise. Even if you feed the world, > there is diease and old age and death. Will you cure this? > > > It is divine theater, nothing more. And this knowledge is not for everyone, > it can be dangerous. > I'm sorry, I didn't know you were enlightened - in fact I didn't even know we were talking about you. > > >>> Knowledge (how we appreciate our self/world)is structured in > >>> consciousness. If you want to change your knowledge, you have to > >>> change your consciousness. > >> > >> You cannot do that. You can only understand. > >> > > > > Following the Vedanta analogy, understanding will change the snake. > > Red snake, blue snake, etc. All sorts of snake experts can be > > consulted. Classes in snake can be taken. Only consciousness will > > reveal the rope (again following the analogy). > > > Find the one who suffers. What is consciousness? Do you disagree with those > sages who say it is Maya? Why are you on this list? Looking for something? > > Understanding does not turn a nonexistent snake into something else. That is > like saying the wound will heal from the snake bite. There is no snake, no > wound. Even if I don't see the rope, if someone does who I trust will not > mislead me, then it is a great benefit to hear that it is not a snake as my > fears and panic lessen immediately. And I will try to look more closely... Oh the grip of the Illusion is very tight and addictive, do not underestimate it. > > >>> So offer the child a plate of food, and the means to smash the > >>> illusion. This goes much further than claiming there is no snake. > >>> > >>> namaste, > >>> larry > > Interesting you use the word " smash. " If you want to do good, be my guest. > Most do-gooders just make more trouble. They want to tell everyone else how > to live. Is this love? Wow, where is this coming from - me a do-gooder. > > > >>> Note: that child is you and me! > >> > >> So, are you pitting activism against advaita? I don't understand, > > you think > >> all these gurus should be feeding starving people instead of doing > > what they > >> do or did? > >> > >> Shawn > > > > When you are hungry, feed yourself. If you find someone hungry, > > offer them food. If you long for liberation, smash the illusion. My > > use of the analogy had no room for gurus or activists. I'll work > > them in next time. > > > > Larry > Till we meet again. Larry > > Hi Larry, > > nice to meet you. > > Ahimsa, > > Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.