Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Forgive me for being behind in my reading of e-mail, but i just read this from the Feb 15 - ND Highlights: > > Dan Berkow meditationsocietyofamerica > > Reflections on the current world situation > > I couldn't agree with you more that war is ugly as hell. > > In a way, it is the hell that we live with as the human > condition, and which all our attempts at control simply > lead to new, improved expressions of. > > New improved human civilizations lead to new, > improved ways to destroy human beings. > > There is the wish to control the other, and the belief that > one is in a position to know what is best, and that leads > to games of control and counter control that get > incredibly destructive. It includes cultural games as well > as national games of control. > > The drama is the drama of the human mind, or the > human condition. It involves the human being -- there is > no particular one to blame -- as soon as one instigator > is blamed and killed, another takes that one's place, > and we have to deal with the one who killed the killer. > > If one potential conflict is averted, another springs up in > another place. > > On every side, every culture, every continent, there are > these games of control, countercontrol, on and on. > > There will be massive peace protests involving millions. > > Those millions are as much part of the human condition > that constructs wars as are the ones who are initiating > the moves of war, the willingness to amass and use > weapons, the willingness to blame, the willingness to > claim truth is on one's side and evil on the other. > > The governed and the governed are the same human > being. > > The killer and the killed are the same human being. > > That is the sorrow and tragedy of the unfolding > dilemma, the apocalpyse that is rearing its ugly head, > the beast generated by desires to control, which is now > out of control. > > There is no solution for this dilemma, because the > dilemma is the human being, is the human > understanding, which inevitably leads to perceptions > involved in control, which inevitably leads to > technologies to have the advantage, which inevitably > leads to ... > > Of course, those who see what is unfolding will protest, > will speak out against war ... > > That is part of the unfolding drama, the holocaust which > already is in progress -- as the involved nations, > religions, parties, individuals all jockey for what they > think will be the best self-serving position in the chess > game of apolcalypse. > > In which there is no position worth taking, nor which > game can be refused -- not even by suicide, for the > game is the very being involved in " human being... " > > But, it's not about a " him " that's screwing everything up. > > That is how the human body-mind computer operates, > looking where to assign blame and trying to fix > the situation. > > We are looking at global holocaust resulting from > various individuals and groups trying to find > ways to fix things for themselves, and fix each other. > > Each political figure has a stake for himself, > his group, and his understanding of the world. > > The conditions of interpersonal manipulation, > violence, hatred and mistrust of one group by another, > are pervasive at this point. It is global. > > If you take in the global picture, you'll see > there is not any actor doing it, making it > happen this way. > > Each actor is acting out his or her part in the > drama unfolding, and the holocaust is already > happening -- like joining a movie in progress ... > > The outcries for " peace " can't change the scenario > that all the humans have built together over > centuries, but certainly those roles will also > be acted out ... > > Self-righteousness gives away that there's an attempt > to maintain self at the center of the proclamations. > > This is about the " self " in the self-righteous, and > the manipulations to benefit " self " -- with all > its ideals and high-sounding motives. > > > How could it not apply to Bush? > > Global strategies, control of resources, > seeking advantage for self and group, > use of force to establish domain -- over centuries ... > East and West, North and South ... > > Bush is not the initiator of global strategy, but a > figurehead, a spokesperson, subject himself > to manipulations and conditionings over time. > > My perception involves inevitability of what is unfolding. > > I would say, the forces involved are very large, and carry > the weight of centuries, patterns of interwoven > abuses across and within cultures over centuries ... > > Passivity is seen as bad -- yet it is the passive > awareness that is receptive and knows " what is " ... > > The active awareness is certainly necessary in life, > but if not intertwined with the passive, doesn't > receive. > > And then, we get proactivity on all sides that is > self-serving and not listening, not hearing, > not taking in the total picture. > > I feel that we are already in the midst of great > tragedy constructed by the human mind intending > to fix things and avoid tragedies (for " me " ) > the ingrained condition of the human biocomputer, > the me-center, when active and passive are not > reconciled and there is an attempt to maintain > an actively doing " me " -- > > So, it seems important to open to the heart of human > suffering brought about by our self-centering ... > non-avoidance of seeing what comes about > from our own " automatic doings " and " proactivities " ... > > I'm not totally pessimistic though. > > All that happens, is to happen. > > And following the hurricane, there is > new light of a new dawning. > > Yet, it cannot be that there is light > without darkness, not in this > world of human experience. > ___________________ > > If there is no blame assigned, there is nothing > to fight, and no heroic individual. > > The actors don't act from a separable position to > make things happen, so there is merely an ongoing > chain of events. The only thing is that the chain > doesn't move from the past into the future, as most > people assume. The chain links past, present and > future, and is merely interpreted as if moving from > past to future because of the structuring of the human brain. > > And this is my point -- the passive awareness takes in, > isn't looking to do anything, so doesn't need an > anchor in a " known " -- the active awareness that wants > to accomplish something formulates a " known " -- a basis > on which to apply knowledge toward getting something > done. ************************* Whew! That was a long one Dan, and though I agree with the seemingly hopeless and pessimistic nature of your perception, I must say.... " so what's your point? " To have an " anchor " in the known or unknown? I know all about the yin-yang thing and the inevitabilty and no-one's doing it thing and yet, I find nothing in your post to suggest that there might be a living human being behind it, other than, " well, there's a post. " Let's say there is a runaway train and it's heading right down the tracks at full speed. Now down the tracks a ways, there are a bunch of helpless babies tied to the track. You can see the inevitable out come. You can even intuit that if those babies are miraculously saved, others will die later in some natural or unnatural disaster. Now, lets say you're a bunch of Who's trying to get Horton to push a log in front of the train. Do you see where I'm going? ************** > There is no solution for this dilemma, because the > dilemma is the human being, is the human > understanding, which inevitably leads to perceptions > involved in control, which inevitably leads to > technologies to have the advantage, which inevitably > leads to ... ******************** To this I must disagree. I see your point but is it not the function of the free man or at least the understanding of same to see beyond egoic desires of control? Is there not a love for all life and some sort of at least celebration in it's play...there may not be a vision of it's neccesity to continue in it's present form, but I'm quite certain, there is no desire to leave it either. As a bystander and one who would be passive in the Who's ability to get Horton to move the log and save the children, do you see how you deny your own existence? ****************** > > If there is no blame assigned, there is nothing > to fight, and no heroic individual. **************** There is action without actor. And so having deluded yourself into the position of non-action instead of playful actor, you might just as well be a tree who has profound thoughts. Take full pleasure in this bodily form, I say! HORTON! MOVE IT!! Your post has the feel of one of transcendence and action-undermining logic, but it is not only the Self we find refuge in but the the Self in Bodily Form we act through. Fight Arjuna! ))))))))))Shawn PS I do not assign Dan the " job " of acting as it may very well be his destiny to be a reporter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Hi Shawn -- > Whew! That was a long one Dan, and though I agree with the seemingly > hopeless > and pessimistic nature of your perception, I must say.... " so what's your > point? " I don't remember. To be seemingly hopeless and pessimistic perhaps? Or to wake up to who we actually are, perhaps? > To have an " anchor " in the known or unknown? There isn't any anchor anywhere. I once had one, but I misplaced it, and it never came back. Damn! I hate when that happens ... > I know all about the yin-yang thing and the inevitabilty and no- one's doing > it > thing and yet, I find nothing in your post to suggest that there might be a > living human being behind it, other than, " well, there's a post. " I'm an android who doesn't need much sleep. > Let's say there is a runaway train and it's heading right down the tracks at > full speed. Now down the tracks a ways, there are a bunch of helpless babies > tied to the track. You can see the inevitable out come. You can even intuit > that if those babies are miraculously saved, others will die later in some > natural or unnatural disaster. Now, lets say you're a bunch of Who's trying > to > get Horton to push a log in front of the train. Do you see where I'm going? Look, you do what you gotta do, Shawn. I do what I gotta do. > ************** > > There is no solution for this dilemma, because the > > dilemma is the human being, is the human > > understanding, which inevitably leads to perceptions > > involved in control, which inevitably leads to > > technologies to have the advantage, which inevitably > > leads to ... > > ******************** > > To this I must disagree. I see your point but is it not the function of the > free man or at least the understanding of same to see beyond egoic desires > of > control? No. Free men are doing all these things you don't like. > Is there not a love for all life and some sort of at least > celebration in it's play... The entire universe is " it's " play -- could never be any other way ... > there may not be a vision of it's neccesity to > continue in it's present form, but I'm quite certain, there is no desire to > leave it either. As a bystander and one who would be passive in the Who's > ability to get Horton to move the log and save the children, do you see how > you deny your own existence? Nope. And you have no idea of what I'm doing or not doing, you're just reading your own projections into an e-mail post I wrote. For example, I'm part of a community response task force, I have counseled people dealing with being called for military service, family members whose sons or fiances are now overseas ... I'm writing to what being aware is ... that's all. You do what you gotta do, Shawn. > > > > If there is no blame assigned, there is nothing > > to fight, and no heroic individual. > **************** > There is action without actor. And so having deluded yourself into the > position of non-action instead of playful actor, you might just as well be a > tree who has profound thoughts. Take full pleasure in this bodily form, I > say! > HORTON! MOVE IT!! I'm not in a position of non-action, that's where you're wrong. I'm not in any position, nor am I outside of positions. > Your post has the feel of one of transcendence and action- undermining logic, > but it is not only the Self we find refuge in but the the Self in Bodily > Form > we act through. Fight Arjuna! It's not a matter of bodily versus nonbodily. With no position, how could I be outside of the bodily? Yet, there is no particular body which I am -- The bodiliness of all the bodies is who I am ... All the ones that are about to die on all sides. > ))))))))))Shawn > > PS > I do not assign Dan the " job " of acting as it may very well be his destiny > to > be a reporter. Acting in what way are you talking about? How could I be human and alive now, and be uninvolved and untouched? -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 on 2/22/03 9:20 PM, dan330033 <dan330033 at dan330033 wrote: > Hi Shawn -- > >> Whew! That was a long one Dan, and though I agree with the seemingly >> hopeless >> and pessimistic nature of your perception, I must say.... " so > what's your >> point? " > > I don't remember. To be seemingly hopeless and pessimistic > perhaps? Or to wake up to who we actually are, perhaps? > >> To have an " anchor " in the known or unknown? > > There isn't any anchor anywhere. > > I once had one, but I misplaced it, and it never > came back. > > Damn! I hate when that happens ... ****************** )))))Dan!@ where.com Dan, you have a great sense of humor! I like you. Imagine my surprise when you turn out to be *the* dan I was encouraged to respond to! I honestly didn't know! ***************** >> I know all about the yin-yang thing and the inevitabilty and no- > one's doing >> it >> thing and yet, I find nothing in your post to suggest that there > might be a >> living human being behind it, other than, " well, there's a post. " *************** > I'm an android who doesn't need much sleep. Uh- huhmm...(shuffling feet) I, uh didn't mean to... uh, that was just a tactic to uh... smoke you out if you were - uh ... happened to be the same vicinity...sorry! (ouch) ************************** >> Let's say there is a runaway train and it's heading right down the > tracks at >> full speed. Now down the tracks a ways, there are a bunch of > helpless babies >> tied to the track. You can see the inevitable out come. You can > even intuit >> that if those babies are miraculously saved, others will die later > in some >> natural or unnatural disaster. Now, lets say you're a bunch of > Who's trying >> to >> get Horton to push a log in front of the train. Do you see where > I'm going? > > Look, you do what you gotta do, Shawn. > > I do what I gotta do. ***************** Exceellent! Still friends?! >> ************** >>> There is no solution for this dilemma, because the >>> dilemma is the human being, is the human >>> understanding, which inevitably leads to perceptions >>> involved in control, which inevitably leads to >>> technologies to have the advantage, which inevitably >>> leads to ... >> >> ******************** >> >> To this I must disagree. I see your point but is it not the > function of the >> free man or at least the understanding of same to see beyond egoic > desires >> of >> control? > > No. > > Free men are doing all these things you don't like. ****************************** I mean enlightened guys...*FREE* men. ********************** >> Is there not a love for all life and some sort of at least >> celebration in it's play... > > The entire universe is " it's " play -- could > never be any other way ... > >> there may not be a vision of it's neccesity to >> continue in it's present form, but I'm quite certain, there is no > desire to >> leave it either. As a bystander and one who would be passive in the > Who's >> ability to get Horton to move the log and save the children, do you > see how >> you deny your own existence? ***************** > Nope. ********************* Okay...but that's a hard one, especially for the average guy to comprehend. ****************** > And you have no idea of what I'm doing or not doing, > you're just reading your own projections into > an e-mail post I wrote. > > For example, I'm part of a community response task force, > I have counseled people dealing with being called for > military service, family members whose sons or fiances > are now overseas ... > > I'm writing to what being aware is ... that's all. > > You do what you gotta do, Shawn. ********************* Yeah, but you gotta admit, it was kind of a fatalistic, giving up on humanity kind of flavor? Well I guess you don't have to admit to anything, but... *********************** >>> If there is no blame assigned, there is nothing >>> to fight, and no heroic individual. >> **************** >> There is action without actor. And so having deluded yourself into > the >> position of non-action instead of playful actor, you might just as > well be a >> tree who has profound thoughts. Take full pleasure in this bodily > form, I >> say! >> HORTON! MOVE IT!! > > I'm not in a position of non-action, that's where > you're wrong. > > I'm not in any position, nor am I outside of positions. > >> Your post has the feel of one of transcendence and action- > undermining logic, >> but it is not only the Self we find refuge in but the the Self in > Bodily >> Form >> we act through. Fight Arjuna! > > It's not a matter of bodily versus nonbodily. > > With no position, how could I be outside of the bodily? > > Yet, there is no particular body which I am -- > > The bodiliness of all the bodies is who I am ... > > All the ones that are about to die on all sides. ********************** Do you not also find yourself animating one particular body who responds to " Dan? " +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> ))))))))))Shawn >> >> PS >> I do not assign Dan the " job " of acting as it may very well be his > destiny >> to >> be a reporter. > > Acting in what way are you talking about? ******************** The feeling I get from your post is one of resigned acceptance to the inevitabilty of the Iraq invasion and of indifference as to the effectiveness of opposition to it. .....but, maybe that's just me, it very well could be. *************** > How could I be human and alive now, and be > uninvolved and untouched? > > -- Dan *************** Dan, I am sorry...there *is* that imagery in me that tends to view the Eastern inversion of attention as a rejection of the beauty and importance of the outer physical life. I am just frustrated with the fact that we have to kill eachother to solve our problems...still... Namaste, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2003 Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 Hi Shawn -- > > Exceellent! Still friends?! Absolutely! > > > >> ************** > >>> There is no solution for this dilemma, because the > >>> dilemma is the human being, is the human > >>> understanding, which inevitably leads to perceptions > >>> involved in control, which inevitably leads to > >>> technologies to have the advantage, which inevitably > >>> leads to ... > >> > >> ******************** > >> > >> To this I must disagree. I see your point but is it not the > > function of the > >> free man or at least the understanding of same to see beyond egoic > > desires > >> of > >> control? > > > > No. > > > > Free men are doing all these things you don't like. > ****************************** > > I mean enlightened guys...*FREE* men. > > ********************** Oh, those guys. You mean, the guys who know that there only is " original freedom " everywhere? > ********************* > > Yeah, but you gotta admit, it was kind of a fatalistic, giving up on > humanity kind of flavor? Well I guess you don't have to admit to anything, > but... > *********************** It's written from the perspective of what I see unfolding. It's the big picture of what's happening on this planet as I understand it. > ********************** > > Do you not also find yourself animating one particular body who responds to > " Dan? " > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Yes, most definitely! Shawn! > ******************** > > The feeling I get from your post is one of resigned acceptance to the > inevitabilty of the Iraq invasion and of indifference as to the > effectiveness of opposition to it. > ....but, maybe that's just me, it very well could be. > > *************** That's so. And even if there weren't an Iraq invasion, it would just be a short wait to the next invasion of someone by someone else. Yes, it's true what you say -- I'm not advocating that anyone else see this as I do. I feel a lot like the guy in Ecclesiastes who said, " Vanity of vanities, all is vanity. There is nothing new under the sun. " Not that I write as well as he did -- I don't. The human being, which populates the globe, is the sum total of all human knowledge and attitudes, being recyled over and over -- the whole deal -- the hurting, the being hurt, the recovering, the believing in peace, the anger at injustices, the greed, the need to defend, the desire to achieve -- the whole deal playing itself out here ... me and mine against you and yours ... yes, there seems to be some insight that enters into the picture at times, but that insight is into the totality picture of what humanity is -- you get that, and then do what you gotta do -- maybe you gotta protest a war, maybe you gotta go fight -- you are the ones who die in the bomb blast, you are the ones who drop the bomb ... > > *************** > > Dan, I am sorry...there *is* that imagery in me that tends to view the > Eastern inversion of attention as a rejection of the beauty and importance > of the outer physical life. I agree that it must not be taken that way. There has been a great deal of stagnation in the East. We open as " this " not to an Eastern truth or a Western truth. > I am just frustrated with the fact that we have > to kill eachother to solve our problems...still... We will have to kill each other to solve problems, until we can contend with what is the root of our problem with one another -- and that requires a revolution in seeing -- not cheap words learned from a Bible or Nondual Happy Book ... Peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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