Guest guest Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 I would like to suggest to you another way of looking at free will, or the lack thereof. This one doesn’t require any transfer of will from man to God. It’s quite simple and physical: The universe is jam pack with causes and effects. Since time began this consequences, which in their turn became causes of new effects have been pilling on. In this avalanche of causes and effects, a personal will has no room to maneuver. Matter of fact, what we perceive as our choice or decision is nothing but the resonance in our minds of past causes and effects. It reminds me of a Fourth of July in Chicago when I waited too long to leave Grant Park after the fireworks. I was caught in a crowd of thousands of people trying to leave at the same time. The avenue, which was six lanes wide, was pack with people from wall to wall. When it was time for me to take another street I could not. I was carry away by the crowd for blocks until it began to thin. I felt like a drop of water in a mighty river. As far as enlightened people acquiring free will or special powers is all hogwash dreamed up by their followers. The only power they acquire is the one to only want what is going to happen anyway. So it seems they always get what they wish. Best wishes, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Hey Pete, This reminded me of the dialogue in chapter 14 of I Am That, titled Appearences and Reality. Nisargadatta explains that there are no causes and effects. This may be interpretted, as you have written, that the countless, infinate flood of continuous causes and effects are so tightly and intricately linked that it's almost erroneous even to define them as such. Labelling them causes and effects assumes independance and separation to some extent of which there is none. Toby Nisargadatta , " Juansi Nulo " <Juansi2@m...> wrote: > I would like to suggest to you another way of looking at free will, or the lack thereof. This one doesn't require any transfer of will from man to God. It's quite simple and physical: The universe is jam pack with causes and effects. > Since time began this consequences, which in their turn became causes of new effects have been pilling on. In this avalanche of causes and effects, a personal will has no room to maneuver. Matter of fact, what we perceive as our choice or decision is nothing but the resonance in our minds of past causes and effects. It reminds me of a Fourth of July in Chicago when I waited too long to leave Grant Park after the fireworks. I was caught in a crowd of thousands of people trying to leave at the same time. The avenue, which was six lanes wide, was pack with people from wall to wall. When it was time for me to take another street I could not. I was carry away by the crowd for blocks until it began to thin. I felt like a drop of water in a mighty river. > > > > As far as enlightened people acquiring free will or special powers is all hogwash dreamed up by their followers. The only > > power they acquire is the one to only want what is going to happen anyway. So it seems they always get what they wish. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Dear Pete, Nisargadatta , " Juansi Nulo " <Juansi2@m...> wrote: I would like to suggest to you another way of looking at free will, or the lack thereof. This one doesn't require any transfer of will from man to God. It's quite simple and physical: The universe is jam pack with causes and effects. Since time began this consequences, which in their turn became causes of new effects have been pilling on. In this avalanche of causes and effects, a personal will has no room to maneuver. Matter of fact, what we perceive as our choice or decision is nothing but the resonance in our minds of past causes and effects. It reminds me of a Fourth of July in Chicago when I waited too long to leave Grant Park after the fireworks. I was caught in a crowd of thousands of people trying to leave at the same time. The avenue, which was six lanes wide, was pack with people from wall to wall. When it was time for me to take another street I could not. I was carry away by the crowd for blocks until it began to thin. I felt like a drop of water in a mighty river. As far as enlightened people acquiring free will or special powers is all hogwash dreamed up by their followers. The only power they acquire is the one to only want what is going to happen anyway. So it seems they always get what they wish. Best wishes, Pete KKT: << Causes and effects >> are the way used by Buddhists to explain everything. But do you really believe << causes and effects >> as a << strict >> law ? If this were the case then we fall into the sinister law of << determinism >> ! Who says << determinism >> says << lack of freedom >> :-)) Even the Buddhists said that nobody could know all the causes for an effect to happen except the Buddha since this problem is very complex. Enlightenment should be the << breakthrough >> The breakthrough of causes and effects! And this is the miracle! :-)) Peace, KKT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Toby, This is like in the Yoga Vasistha. In that scripture, it is repeated again and again that a crow goes up to the top of a palm tree and the coconut falls down. He says that it appears to be cause and affect to the deluded. I guess the leap would be to see One cause instead of a multitude of actors. Sort of like it is the show and not the individual characters. Paul Nisargadatta , " toby20042004 " <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > Hey Pete, > > This reminded me of the dialogue in chapter 14 of I Am That, titled > Appearences and Reality. Nisargadatta explains that there are no > causes and effects. This may be interpretted, as you have written, > that the countless, infinate flood of continuous causes and effects > are so tightly and intricately linked that it's almost erroneous even > to define them as such. Labelling them causes and effects assumes > independance and separation to some extent of which there is none. > > Toby > > > Nisargadatta , " Juansi Nulo " <Juansi2@m...> > wrote: > > I would like to suggest to you another way of looking at free will, > or the lack thereof. This one doesn't require any transfer of will > from man to God. It's quite simple and physical: The universe is jam > pack with causes and effects. > > Since time began this consequences, which in their turn became > causes of new effects have been pilling on. In this avalanche of > causes and effects, a personal will has no room to maneuver. Matter > of fact, what we perceive as our choice or decision is nothing but > the resonance in our minds of past causes and effects. It reminds me > of a Fourth of July in Chicago when I waited too long to leave Grant > Park after the fireworks. I was caught in a crowd of thousands of > people trying to leave at the same time. The avenue, which was six > lanes wide, was pack with people from wall to wall. When it was time > for me to take another street I could not. I was carry away by the > crowd for blocks until it began to thin. I felt like a drop of water > in a mighty river. > > > > > > > > As far as enlightened people acquiring free will or special powers > is all hogwash dreamed up by their followers. The only > > > > power they acquire is the one to only want what is going to happen > anyway. So it seems they always get what they wish. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 The only power they acquire is the one to only want what is going to happen anyway. So it seems they always get what they wish. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Pete thats a good statement, a perfect balance between free will and Gods Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Nisargadatta , " devianandi " <devi@p...> wrote: > The only power they acquire is the one to only want what is going to > happen anyway. So it seems they always get what they wish. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, Pete > > thats a good statement, a perfect balance between free will and Gods > Will ---- -- The Self which is free from sin, free from old age, from death and from grief, from hunger and thirst, which desires nothing but what it ought to desire, and imagines nothing but what it ought to imagine, that it is which we must search out, that it is which we must try to understand. He who has searched out that Self and understands it, obtains all worlds and all desires. Chandogya Upanishad 8.7.1 http://nisargadatta.net/advaita.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2003 Report Share Posted April 26, 2003 Hi Paul, To define happenings as causes and effects creates, from an absolute perspective, an erroneous base. As soon as we enter the world of looking at causes, there is no end to it? Even to define " One cause " brings up the question, what has caused this One cause? It is like the perpetual " why? " . It has an infinite asking capacity, regardless of the answer. Toby Nisargadatta , " bondzai " <bondzai> wrote: > Toby, > > This is like in the Yoga Vasistha. In that scripture, it is > repeated again and again that a crow goes up to the top of a palm > tree and the coconut falls down. He says that it appears to be cause > and affect to the deluded. I guess the leap would be to see One > cause instead of a multitude of actors. Sort of like it is the show > and not the individual characters. > > Paul > > Nisargadatta , " toby20042004 " > <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > > Hey Pete, > > > > This reminded me of the dialogue in chapter 14 of I Am That, titled > > Appearences and Reality. Nisargadatta explains that there are no > > causes and effects. This may be interpretted, as you have written, > > that the countless, infinate flood of continuous causes and effects > > are so tightly and intricately linked that it's almost erroneous > even > > to define them as such. Labelling them causes and effects assumes > > independance and separation to some extent of which there is none. > > > > Toby > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Juansi Nulo " <Juansi2@m...> > > wrote: > > > I would like to suggest to you another way of looking at free > will, > > or the lack thereof. This one doesn't require any transfer of will > > from man to God. It's quite simple and physical: The universe is > jam > > pack with causes and effects. > > > Since time began this consequences, which in their turn became > > causes of new effects have been pilling on. In this avalanche of > > causes and effects, a personal will has no room to maneuver. Matter > > of fact, what we perceive as our choice or decision is nothing but > > the resonance in our minds of past causes and effects. It reminds > me > > of a Fourth of July in Chicago when I waited too long to leave > Grant > > Park after the fireworks. I was caught in a crowd of thousands of > > people trying to leave at the same time. The avenue, which was six > > lanes wide, was pack with people from wall to wall. When it was > time > > for me to take another street I could not. I was carry away by the > > crowd for blocks until it began to thin. I felt like a drop of > water > > in a mighty river. > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as enlightened people acquiring free will or special > powers > > is all hogwash dreamed up by their followers. The only > > > > > > power they acquire is the one to only want what is going to > happen > > anyway. So it seems they always get what they wish. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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