Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Nisargadatta , " kim ja nyun " <kjn@h...> wrote: > I am in the real world. > I just witness the dream world arising from 'I'. > I am beyond communication, discussion, meaning, concepts, distinction, understanding, etc. > How can you(atman or consciousness) in the dream world understand 'I'? > Only 'I' in the real world can understand you(atman or consciousness) in the dream world. > For example, > before you awake, can you understand that it is only the sleeping dream? > Wake up! > If you wake up, there is no problem about this dream world. To think you are sleeping and can wake up, is the activity of a dream character. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Yes it is.To see, to think and to write this message is not 'I', but a dream character(consciousness).'I' only witness a dream character(consciousness). - dan330033 Nisargadatta Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:54 PM Re: On Waking UpNisargadatta , "kim ja nyun" <kjn@h...> wrote:> I am in the real world.> I just witness the dream world arising from 'I'.> I am beyond communication, discussion, meaning, concepts, distinction, understanding, etc.> How can you(atman or consciousness) in the dream world understand 'I'?> Only 'I' in the real world can understand you(atman or consciousness) in the dream world.> For example, > before you awake, can you understand that it is only the sleeping dream?> Wake up!> If you wake up, there is no problem about this dream world.To think you are sleeping and can wake up, isthe activity of a dream character.-- Dan**If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1Under the Message Delivery option, choose "No Email" for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Nisargadatta , " kim ja nyun " <kjn@h...> wrote: > Yes it is. > To see, to think and to write this message is not 'I', but a dream character(consciousness). > 'I' only witness a dream character(consciousness). Believing, or perceiving, or apperceiving that you witness a dream character, is another dream event. As are the reading and writing of this message. What is not a dream is not the words or ideas arising through such phrases as " what is not a dream. " -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 Yes, All is a dream, concepts.There is no a direct way to apperceive 'I'.All is only pointers to apperceive 'I'. - dan330033 Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:51 AM Re: On Waking UpNisargadatta , "kim ja nyun" <kjn@h...> wrote:> Yes it is.> To see, to think and to write this message is not 'I', but a dream character(consciousness).> 'I' only witness a dream character(consciousness). Believing, or perceiving, or apperceiving that you witness a dream character, is another dream event.As are the reading and writing of this message.What is not a dream is not the words or ideas arising through such phrases as "what is not a dream."-- Dan**If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1Under the Message Delivery option, choose "No Email" for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 What dream? There is nothing objective in what you say. OK, so you have a notion of dreaming... Purely subjective. Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Friday, June 20, 2003 4:30 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking Up Yes, All is a dream, concepts. There is no a direct way to apperceive 'I'. All is only pointers to apperceive 'I'. - dan330033 Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:51 AM Re: On Waking Up Nisargadatta , "kim ja nyun" <kjn@h...> wrote:> Yes it is.> To see, to think and to write this message is not 'I', but a dream character(consciousness).> 'I' only witness a dream character(consciousness). Believing, or perceiving, or apperceiving that you witness a dream character, is another dream event.As are the reading and writing of this message.What is not a dream is not the words or ideas arising through such phrases as "what is not a dream."-- Dan**If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1Under the Message Delivery option, choose "No Email" for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 I don't have a notion of dreaming.It is a dream charater to have a notion of dreaming.I am not a dream character. Also, I am not a dreamer.The dreamer is the subjective aspect of consciousness while all manifestation (the cognizer and the cognized) is its objective aspect.I only witness the consciousness. The above is a concept only.Silence is better. - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 11:06 AMRE: Re: On Waking UpWhat dream?There is nothing objective in what you say.OK, so you have a notion of dreaming...Purely subjective. Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Friday, June 20, 2003 4:30 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking UpYes, All is a dream, concepts.There is no a direct way to apperceive 'I'.All is only pointers to apperceive 'I'. - dan330033 Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:51 AM Re: On Waking UpNisargadatta , "kim ja nyun" <kjn@h...> wrote:> Yes it is.> To see, to think and to write this message is not 'I', but a dream character(consciousness).> 'I' only witness a dream character(consciousness). Believing, or perceiving, or apperceiving that you witness a dream character, is another dream event.As are the reading and writing of this message.What is not a dream is not the words or ideas arising through such phrases as "what is not a dream."-- Dan**If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1Under the Message Delivery option, choose "No Email" for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 Nisargadatta , " kim ja nyun " <kjn@h...> wrote: > Yes, > All is a dream, concepts. > There is no a direct way to apperceive 'I'. > All is only pointers to apperceive 'I'. There is no apperception to have happen, or not to have happen. Just the dream of something that could be called apperception. 'This' which is not a dream has never been discussed, nor apperceived. Yet, nothing is prevented from happening, which happens as it does. And if it happens that you talk about something you label apperception, so be it. And if I say there is no apperception to have happen, that is just more talk, as well. Idle chatterers are we, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 << I only witness the consciousness. The above is a concept only. Silence is better. >> Yes, because you can't even say you witness. So is there anything that is not concept? And if no, whereof do concepts arise? Or perhaps they don't arise... And if they don't arise can one say there are concepts? But everyone knows there are concepts... such as the concept of a 'square'. Are we misusing a term here? Is your use of the term 'concept' an "unordinary" use? If so, it begs a definition. -Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Friday, June 20, 2003 7:59 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking Up I don't have a notion of dreaming. It is a dream charater to have a notion of dreaming. I am not a dream character. Also, I am not a dreamer. The dreamer is the subjective aspect of consciousness while all manifestation (the cognizer and the cognized) is its objective aspect. I only witness the consciousness. The above is a concept only. Silence is better. - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 11:06 AM RE: Re: On Waking Up What dream? There is nothing objective in what you say. OK, so you have a notion of dreaming... Purely subjective. Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Friday, June 20, 2003 4:30 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking Up Yes, All is a dream, concepts. There is no a direct way to apperceive 'I'. All is only pointers to apperceive 'I'. - dan330033 Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:51 AM Re: On Waking Up Nisargadatta , "kim ja nyun" <kjn@h...> wrote:> Yes it is.> To see, to think and to write this message is not 'I', but a dream character(consciousness).> 'I' only witness a dream character(consciousness). Believing, or perceiving, or apperceiving that you witness a dream character, is another dream event.As are the reading and writing of this message.What is not a dream is not the words or ideas arising through such phrases as "what is not a dream."-- Dan**If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1Under the Message Delivery option, choose "No Email" for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Dan's statement may be reasonable because it is apperception that nothing really happens for 'I'.There is no 'me' or 'you' to seek enlightenment;there is no such thing as 'enlightenment'.The apperception of this fact is itself enlightenment. - dan330033 Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:36 PM Re: On Waking UpNisargadatta , "kim ja nyun" <kjn@h...> wrote:> Yes, > All is a dream, concepts.> There is no a direct way to apperceive 'I'.> All is only pointers to apperceive 'I'.There is no apperception to have happen, or not to have happen.Just the dream of something that could be called apperception.'This' which is not a dream has never been discussed, nor apperceived.Yet, nothing is prevented from happening, which happens as it does.And if it happens that you talk about something you label apperception, so be it.And if I say there is no apperception to have happen, that is just more talk, as well.Idle chatterers are we,Dan**If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1Under the Message Delivery option, choose "No Email" for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Concepts are not real, but imaginary.All objects based on space-time are concepts because time-space is concept,so they are imaginary.'Real and Real witnessing' can not be described exactly, but only can be pointed by concepts.Saying that 'I only witness the consciousness', is a pointer by concepts.Words or concepts are not necessary for 'Real and Real witnessing'.Therefore, for Real and Real witnessing silence is better.Furthermore, pure silence is best.Pure silence is Real itself. Everything to be seen is not 'I', but image of 'I'.So, saying that 'I am everything' is not right expression exactly.'I' am not image, but Real.'I' only witness image of 'I'. Summarizing the truth by concepts, "Noumenally(really) I am the Unborn, the timeless and spaceless.Phenomenally(imaginarily) I am everything, the universal consciousness.I, noumenon(real), am all the 'funcitoning' in consciousness." - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 1:11 PMRE: Re: On Waking Up<< I only witness the consciousness. The above is a concept only. Silence is better.>> Yes, because you can't even say you witness. So is there anything that is not concept? And if no, whereof do concepts arise? Or perhaps they don't arise... And if they don't arise can one say there are concepts? But everyone knows there are concepts...such as the concept of a 'square'. Are we misusing a term here? Is your use of the term 'concept' an "unordinary" use? If so, it begs a definition. -Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Friday, June 20, 2003 7:59 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking UpI don't have a notion of dreaming.It is a dream charater to have a notion of dreaming.I am not a dream character. Also, I am not a dreamer.The dreamer is the subjective aspect of consciousness while all manifestation (the cognizer and the cognized) is its objective aspect.I only witness the consciousness. The above is a concept only.Silence is better. - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 11:06 AMRE: Re: On Waking UpWhat dream?There is nothing objective in what you say.OK, so you have a notion of dreaming...Purely subjective. Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Friday, June 20, 2003 4:30 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking UpYes, All is a dream, concepts.There is no a direct way to apperceive 'I'.All is only pointers to apperceive 'I'. - dan330033 Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:51 AM Re: On Waking UpNisargadatta , "kim ja nyun" <kjn@h...> wrote:> Yes it is.> To see, to think and to write this message is not 'I', but a dream character(consciousness).> 'I' only witness a dream character(consciousness). Believing, or perceiving, or apperceiving that you witness a dream character, is another dream event.As are the reading and writing of this message.What is not a dream is not the words or ideas arising through such phrases as "what is not a dream."-- Dan**If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1Under the Message Delivery option, choose "No Email" for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 See what I mean? You don't read what I say. I have asked for a definition of concept and you have given me none. And I mean a definition *as you are using it*. As it is this is not a conversation. You shall not sustain my interest this way. Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Sunday, June 22, 2003 4:20 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking Up Concepts are not real, but imaginary. All objects based on space-time are concepts because time-space is concept, so they are imaginary. 'Real and Real witnessing' can not be described exactly, but only can be pointed by concepts. Saying that 'I only witness the consciousness', is a pointer by concepts. Words or concepts are not necessary for 'Real and Real witnessing'. Therefore, for Real and Real witnessing silence is better. Furthermore, pure silence is best. Pure silence is Real itself. Everything to be seen is not 'I', but image of 'I'. So, saying that 'I am everything' is not right expression exactly. 'I' am not image, but Real. 'I' only witness image of 'I'. Summarizing the truth by concepts, "Noumenally(really) I am the Unborn, the timeless and spaceless. Phenomenally(imaginarily) I am everything, the universal consciousness. I, noumenon(real), am all the 'funcitoning' in consciousness." - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 1:11 PM RE: Re: On Waking Up << I only witness the consciousness. The above is a concept only. Silence is better. >> Yes, because you can't even say you witness. So is there anything that is not concept? And if no, whereof do concepts arise? Or perhaps they don't arise... And if they don't arise can one say there are concepts? But everyone knows there are concepts... such as the concept of a 'square'. Are we misusing a term here? Is your use of the term 'concept' an "unordinary" use? If so, it begs a definition. -Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Friday, June 20, 2003 7:59 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking Up I don't have a notion of dreaming. It is a dream charater to have a notion of dreaming. I am not a dream character. Also, I am not a dreamer. The dreamer is the subjective aspect of consciousness while all manifestation (the cognizer and the cognized) is its objective aspect. I only witness the consciousness. The above is a concept only. Silence is better. - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 11:06 AM RE: Re: On Waking Up What dream? There is nothing objective in what you say. OK, so you have a notion of dreaming... Purely subjective. Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Friday, June 20, 2003 4:30 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking Up Yes, All is a dream, concepts. There is no a direct way to apperceive 'I'. All is only pointers to apperceive 'I'. - dan330033 Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:51 AM Re: On Waking Up Nisargadatta , "kim ja nyun" <kjn@h...> wrote:> Yes it is.> To see, to think and to write this message is not 'I', but a dream character(consciousness).> 'I' only witness a dream character(consciousness). Believing, or perceiving, or apperceiving that you witness a dream character, is another dream event.As are the reading and writing of this message.What is not a dream is not the words or ideas arising through such phrases as "what is not a dream."-- Dan**If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1Under the Message Delivery option, choose "No Email" for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Sorry,I am not telling to bill(individual entity).It is a spontaneous message arising from 'I'.There is no definition to give bill.- Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Monday, June 23, 2003 8:53 AMRE: Re: On Waking UpSee what I mean?You don't read what I say.I have asked for a definition of concept and you have given me none.And I mean a definition *as you are using it*. As it is this is not a conversation. You shall not sustain my interest this way. Billkim ja nyun [kjn]Sunday, June 22, 2003 4:20 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking UpConcepts are not real, but imaginary.All objects based on space-time are concepts because time-space is concept,so they are imaginary.'Real and Real witnessing' can not be described exactly, but only can be pointed by concepts.Saying that 'I only witness the consciousness', is a pointer by concepts.Words or concepts are not necessary for 'Real and Real witnessing'.Therefore, for Real and Real witnessing silence is better.Furthermore, pure silence is best.Pure silence is Real itself. Everything to be seen is not 'I', but image of 'I'.So, saying that 'I am everything' is not right expression exactly.'I' am not image, but Real.'I' only witness image of 'I'. Summarizing the truth by concepts, "Noumenally(really) I am the Unborn, the timeless and spaceless.Phenomenally(imaginarily) I am everything, the universal consciousness.I, noumenon(real), am all the 'funcitoning' in consciousness." - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 1:11 PMRE: Re: On Waking Up<< I only witness the consciousness. The above is a concept only. Silence is better.>> Yes, because you can't even say you witness. So is there anything that is not concept? And if no, whereof do concepts arise? Or perhaps they don't arise... And if they don't arise can one say there are concepts? But everyone knows there are concepts...such as the concept of a 'square'. Are we misusing a term here? Is your use of the term 'concept' an "unordinary" use? If so, it begs a definition. -Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Friday, June 20, 2003 7:59 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking UpI don't have a notion of dreaming.It is a dream charater to have a notion of dreaming.I am not a dream character. Also, I am not a dreamer.The dreamer is the subjective aspect of consciousness while all manifestation (the cognizer and the cognized) is its objective aspect.I only witness the consciousness. The above is a concept only.Silence is better. - Bill Rishel Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 11:06 AMRE: Re: On Waking UpWhat dream?There is nothing objective in what you say.OK, so you have a notion of dreaming...Purely subjective. Bill kim ja nyun [kjn]Friday, June 20, 2003 4:30 PMNisargadatta Subject: Re: Re: On Waking UpYes, All is a dream, concepts.There is no a direct way to apperceive 'I'.All is only pointers to apperceive 'I'. - dan330033 Nisargadatta Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:51 AM Re: On Waking UpNisargadatta , "kim ja nyun" <kjn@h...> wrote:> Yes it is.> To see, to think and to write this message is not 'I', but a dream character(consciousness).> 'I' only witness a dream character(consciousness). Believing, or perceiving, or apperceiving that you witness a dream character, is another dream event.As are the reading and writing of this message.What is not a dream is not the words or ideas arising through such phrases as "what is not a dream."-- Dan**If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1Under the Message Delivery option, choose "No Email" for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Nisargadatta , " kim ja nyun " <kjn@h...> wrote: > Dan's statement may be reasonable because it is apperception that nothing really happens for 'I'. > There is no 'me' or 'you' to seek enlightenment; > there is no such thing as 'enlightenment'. > The apperception of this fact is itself enlightenment. Yes -- Anything that happens requires time, involves duration. Any happening at all - whether named I, you, seeking, enlightenment, fact, being - involves time. As time has no place to occur, there is no duration to it, and therefore nothing has happened. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 I am with you(I).- dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, June 24, 2003 12:14 AM Re: On Waking UpNisargadatta , "kim ja nyun" <kjn@h...> wrote:> Dan's statement may be reasonable because it is apperception that nothing really happens for 'I'.> There is no 'me' or 'you' to seek enlightenment;> there is no such thing as 'enlightenment'.> The apperception of this fact is itself enlightenment.Yes --Anything that happens requires time, involves duration.Any happening at all - whether named I, you, seeking, enlightenment, fact, being - involves time.As time has no place to occur, there is no duration to it, and therefore nothing has happened.-- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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