Guest guest Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 Hi Shawn, Lovely to have to back in my inbox! _______________ >>Hi Toby! >>You lost me there: to feel warmth where ther is none? You must be feeling >>your own warmth! _ Yes Shawn. The warmth within. It seems our natural state is that of warmth. The ego is cold, issues are cold. The Truth is always warm. Love is warm. True love is warmth, within that which is not warming. Dear Toby, >I don't find being judgemental a thing to be shunned, nor was it unnoticed. Not shunned, just dishonest. > " Dead center " in this case may mean " dead in the center. " Yes, beautifully said... It is not our preferences that give us trouble, but our identification and clinging to them. My honest comment about the way I feel from the words UG speaks is also the " truth. " I have a feeling and state it, that doesn't mean it will stay or that I have " passed judgement. " I was making a statement about " me. " And please don't get the feeling that I'm going off on you. I'm just fine and love you like a brother-just feel a need for clarification. I simply have found what I have heard him say (read) to be ineffectual and uninspiring and...well negative. It is like the difference between saying " what you are looking for does not exist. " and " you are the one you seek. " They may both be honest and true statements, but we all resonate with different frequencies. I , for instance, don't resonate with Ruiter's " honesty " stuff, cause for me it's too much...for me it seems a bit condemning in the Judeo-Christian way of accusing you of mortal sin when you lie. I don't mean to dissuade anyone from their prefferences...why should I? I am simply making an observation. I honestly find UG to be kind of life-denying (emotionally-dead) and steer clear from people like this as is natural for me to so. On the other hand I find Sri Niz vibrant, alive, full of wisdom and affection. And so I am on this list......;-) ______________ There seems to be a miscommunication between us when we each refer to " honesty " . The one word means different things to both of us. Perhaps this is why John doesn't resonate with you anymore. The usual usage of the word generally means to tell the truth, to be honest, upright, to not lie. This may be the only technically correct definition, as proposed by dictionaries, English professors and the like. This seems to suit perfectly, your usage of the word. So in this instance, it seems you are correct. The way this form of " honesty " relates to what is happening within seems lame, superficial and shallow. It does not fulfill. My usage of the word stems from the way John de Ruiter has adopted it, and so has Bill, quite separately of his own accord. This form of honesty may be considered absolute. It is honesty to Truth, rather than to a personal truth. It is honesty minus the ego and minus issues. It has nothing to do with what you say or do. It has nothing to do with being honest in your communication with others or in life in general or with expressing your true feelings or thoughts about something. It is far deeper than that. It is giving up " everything " and warmly being in what is, as is, without preference. It is giving Truth precidence over the illusory " you " . It is loving reality more than your own point of view and siding with that and being loyal to that, regardless of circumstance. Any time even a speck of ego enters, so to does dishonesty to Truth, to what is actually real. So we veer from that and adopt our own personal truth and be honest to that instead. In this sense we can say, yes, I am being honest when I say " so and so " is manipulating, they truly are. But this honesty can not stand up on its own, it needs an underlying issue to exist. However, this is still the correct usage of the word, but it is different to what I am trying to get across. I realise you may or may not agree, but can you see the difference I am trying to point out? Toby > > shawn [sMTP:shawn] > Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:36 PM > Nisargadatta > Re: Re: UG (Karta) forwarded (UG - no spark?) > > on 6/25/03 10:03 PM, Wilson, Toby at toby.wilson wrote: > > > Hi Bill, > > > > My comments in no way related to UG himself, or an opinion of his > > " authenticity " . From a relative perspective, I tend to agree that he has no > > warmth in his words. But to feel warmth where there is none, is to see with > > absolute honesty. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Hi Toby! > > You lost me there: to feel warmth where ther is none? You must be feeling > your own warmth! > > ++++++++++++++++ > > > It appeared that commenting on having no spark and leaving one cold, may have > > been an intricate, extremely subtle form of unnoticed judgement. I was simply > > aiming back at dead center, at zero judgement. > > ***************************** > Dear Toby, > > I don't find being judgemental a thing to be shunned, nor was it unnoticed. > " Dead center " in this case may mean " dead in the center. " It is not our > preferences that give us trouble, but our identification and clinging to > them. My honest comment about the way I feel from the words UG speaks is > also the " truth. " I have a feeling and state it, that doesn't mean it will > stay or that I have " passed judgement. " I was making a statement about " me. " > And please don't get the feeling that I'm going off on you. I'm just fine > and love you like a brother-just feel a need for clarification. > I simply have found what I have heard him say (read) to be ineffectual and > uninspiring and...well negative. It is like the difference between saying > " what you are looking for does not exist. " and " you are the one you seek. " > > They may both be honest and true statements, but we all resonate with > different frequencies. I , for instance, don't resonate with Ruiter's > " honesty " stuff, cause for me it's too much...for me it seems a bit > condemning in the Judeo-Christian way of accusing you of mortal sin when you > lie. I don't mean to dissuade anyone from their prefferences...why should I? > I am simply making an observation. I honestly find UG to be kind of > life-denying (emotionally-dead) and steer clear from people like this as is > natural for me to so. On the other hand I find Sri Niz vibrant, alive, full > of wisdom and affection. And so I am on this list......;-) > > > from a previous post: > on 6/12/03 4:44 AM, Pedsie2 at Pedsie2 wrote: > <snip> > > The moment you see a friend coming toward you, it seems recognition happens > > immediately and that it brings a warm glow of friendship. But let's examine > > the > > process bit by bit. Your eyes not only sent your friend > > image to your brain upside down, but they sent it to different centers to > > process its various components. Shape recognition goes one way, colors > > another, > > movement detection is done somewhere else. After the visual effects are done, > > the picture is just a picture and not yet your friend. Then, the photo lab > > sends the image to the amygdala ( an almond-shaped gland located at the > > anterior > > base of the temporal lobe.) In the amygdala the image is invested with > > emotional value and then, finally, it's sent to the frontal lobe to be > > recognized as > > Joyce. > > > > The amygdala no only invests Joyce's image with emotional value, but it does > > the same for any other sensory input. So when this small gland gets injured by > > accident or disease our emotional life stops. People suffering from this > > condition often describe it as feeling or being dead. The presence of mothers > > and > > wives no longer kindles feelings of love. Their homes, their possessions> > > everything they formerly valued leaves them now cold. It reminds one of the > > U. G. > > Krishnamurti syndrome. This total detachment is, of course pathological, and > > not to be confused with the detachment brought about by liberation from a self > > image. > > > > Is our self-image there all the time or is it simple a memory that pops up > > like a road sign every few miles to remind us where we are going? When you, > > for > > example, are really enjoying a movie, where is your self-image? Maybe once in > > a while the thought flashes, " I really like this. " But it seems to you, once > > the movie is over, you were there all the time witnessing every scene. The > > brain is very good at filling in gaps. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > honestly, ))))))Shawn > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 I feel you,ve put your finger on a crucial distinction, Toby. << This form of honesty may be considered absolute. It is honesty to Truth, rather than to a personal truth. It is honesty minus the ego and minus issues. It has nothing to do with what you say or do. It has nothing to do with being honest in your communication with others or in life in general or with expressing your true feelings or thoughts about something. It is far deeper than that. ....It is loving reality more than your own point of view and siding with that and being loyal to that, regardless of circumstance. >> Honesty of the heart rather than honesty of the mind.... To the mind truth is about statements and honesty is about statements. To the heart it is a different matter altogether. To the heart Truth is unflinchingness " . For the heart honesty is a *way of being*. And I still resonate with what Shawn says about UG. And I feel he was being honest in a heartful way when he said what he did about UG. I don't consider it a question of whether UG is " realized " or not. To me it is a matter of " personal taste " as to whether I " get a charge " from someone's writings or not. It is like flavors of ice cream. -Bill Wilson, Toby [toby.wilson] Friday, June 27, 2003 1:54 AM Nisargadatta Honesty/Shawn Hi Shawn, Lovely to have to back in my inbox! _______________ >>Hi Toby! >>You lost me there: to feel warmth where ther is none? You must be feeling >>your own warmth! _ Yes Shawn. The warmth within. It seems our natural state is that of warmth. The ego is cold, issues are cold. The Truth is always warm. Love is warm. True love is warmth, within that which is not warming. Dear Toby, >I don't find being judgemental a thing to be shunned, nor was it unnoticed. Not shunned, just dishonest. > " Dead center " in this case may mean " dead in the center. " Yes, beautifully said... It is not our preferences that give us trouble, but our identification and clinging to them. My honest comment about the way I feel from the words UG speaks is also the " truth. " I have a feeling and state it, that doesn't mean it will stay or that I have " passed judgement. " I was making a statement about " me. " And please don't get the feeling that I'm going off on you. I'm just fine and love you like a brother-just feel a need for clarification. I simply have found what I have heard him say (read) to be ineffectual and uninspiring and...well negative. It is like the difference between saying " what you are looking for does not exist. " and " you are the one you seek. " They may both be honest and true statements, but we all resonate with different frequencies. I , for instance, don't resonate with Ruiter's " honesty " stuff, cause for me it's too much...for me it seems a bit condemning in the Judeo-Christian way of accusing you of mortal sin when you lie. I don't mean to dissuade anyone from their prefferences...why should I? I am simply making an observation. I honestly find UG to be kind of life-denying (emotionally-dead) and steer clear from people like this as is natural for me to so. On the other hand I find Sri Niz vibrant, alive, full of wisdom and affection. And so I am on this list......;-) ______________ There seems to be a miscommunication between us when we each refer to " honesty " . The one word means different things to both of us. Perhaps this is why John doesn't resonate with you anymore. The usual usage of the word generally means to tell the truth, to be honest, upright, to not lie. This may be the only technically correct definition, as proposed by dictionaries, English professors and the like. This seems to suit perfectly, your usage of the word. So in this instance, it seems you are correct. The way this form of " honesty " relates to what is happening within seems lame, superficial and shallow. It does not fulfill. My usage of the word stems from the way John de Ruiter has adopted it, and so has Bill, quite separately of his own accord. This form of honesty may be considered absolute. It is honesty to Truth, rather than to a personal truth. It is honesty minus the ego and minus issues. It has nothing to do with what you say or do. It has nothing to do with being honest in your communication with others or in life in general or with expressing your true feelings or thoughts about something. It is far deeper than that. It is giving up " everything " and warmly being in what is, as is, without preference. It is giving Truth precidence over the illusory " you " . It is loving reality more than your own point of view and siding with that and being loyal to that, regardless of circumstance. Any time even a speck of ego enters, so to does dishonesty to Truth, to what is actually real. So we veer from that and adopt our own personal truth and be honest to that instead. In this sense we can say, yes, I am being honest when I say " so and so " is manipulating, they truly are. But this honesty can not stand up on its own, it needs an underlying issue to exist. However, this is still the correct usage of the word, but it is different to what I am trying to get across. I realise you may or may not agree, but can you see the difference I am trying to point out? Toby > > shawn [sMTP:shawn] > Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:36 PM > Nisargadatta > Re: Re: UG (Karta) forwarded (UG - no spark?) > > on 6/25/03 10:03 PM, Wilson, Toby at toby.wilson wrote: > > > Hi Bill, > > > > My comments in no way related to UG himself, or an opinion of his > > " authenticity " . From a relative perspective, I tend to agree that he has no > > warmth in his words. But to feel warmth where there is none, is to see with > > absolute honesty. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Hi Toby! > > You lost me there: to feel warmth where ther is none? You must be feeling > your own warmth! > > ++++++++++++++++ > > > It appeared that commenting on having no spark and leaving one cold, may have > > been an intricate, extremely subtle form of unnoticed judgement. I was simply > > aiming back at dead center, at zero judgement. > > ***************************** > Dear Toby, > > I don't find being judgemental a thing to be shunned, nor was it unnoticed. > " Dead center " in this case may mean " dead in the center. " It is not our > preferences that give us trouble, but our identification and clinging to > them. My honest comment about the way I feel from the words UG speaks is > also the " truth. " I have a feeling and state it, that doesn't mean it will > stay or that I have " passed judgement. " I was making a statement about " me. " > And please don't get the feeling that I'm going off on you. I'm just fine > and love you like a brother-just feel a need for clarification. > I simply have found what I have heard him say (read) to be ineffectual and > uninspiring and...well negative. It is like the difference between saying > " what you are looking for does not exist. " and " you are the one you seek. " > > They may both be honest and true statements, but we all resonate with > different frequencies. I , for instance, don't resonate with Ruiter's > " honesty " stuff, cause for me it's too much...for me it seems a bit > condemning in the Judeo-Christian way of accusing you of mortal sin when you > lie. I don't mean to dissuade anyone from their prefferences...why should I? > I am simply making an observation. I honestly find UG to be kind of > life-denying (emotionally-dead) and steer clear from people like this as is > natural for me to so. On the other hand I find Sri Niz vibrant, alive, full > of wisdom and affection. And so I am on this list......;-) > > > from a previous post: > on 6/12/03 4:44 AM, Pedsie2 at Pedsie2 wrote: > <snip> > > The moment you see a friend coming toward you, it seems recognition happens > > immediately and that it brings a warm glow of friendship. But let's examine > > the > > process bit by bit. Your eyes not only sent your friend > > image to your brain upside down, but they sent it to different centers to > > process its various components. Shape recognition goes one way, colors > > another, > > movement detection is done somewhere else. After the visual effects are done, > > the picture is just a picture and not yet your friend. Then, the photo lab > > sends the image to the amygdala ( an almond-shaped gland located at the > > anterior > > base of the temporal lobe.) In the amygdala the image is invested with > > emotional value and then, finally, it's sent to the frontal lobe to be > > recognized as > > Joyce. > > > > The amygdala no only invests Joyce's image with emotional value, but it does > > the same for any other sensory input. So when this small gland gets injured by > > accident or disease our emotional life stops. People suffering from this > > condition often describe it as feeling or being dead. The presence of mothers > > and > > wives no longer kindles feelings of love. Their homes, their possessions> > > everything they formerly valued leaves them now cold. It reminds one of the > > U. G. > > Krishnamurti syndrome. This total detachment is, of course pathological, and > > not to be confused with the detachment brought about by liberation from a self > > image. > > > > Is our self-image there all the time or is it simple a memory that pops up > > like a road sign every few miles to remind us where we are going? When you, > > for > > example, are really enjoying a movie, where is your self-image? Maybe once in > > a while the thought flashes, " I really like this. " But it seems to you, once > > the movie is over, you were there all the time witnessing every scene. The > > brain is very good at filling in gaps. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > honestly, ))))))Shawn > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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