Guest guest Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 godz_will posted this message at the advaita.org board. i'm serving it for this group as a lightly battered goffer for the amusement of nondual cats. An excerpt from an article about Advaita from WIE (Andrew Cohen's magazine). While Advaita's profound inspiration and power to liberate is undeniable, its worldview has not been without its critics. Even though " modern " Advaita seems to emphasize the indivisible nature of the world and Brahman, or the Self Absolute, Advaita philosophy has traditionally expressed, as noted religious scholar Lance Nelson points out, a " deep metaphysical bias against the world. . . . In the end, the Advaita tradition fails to present a true nondualism of world and Absolute. . . . It is rather an acosmic monism. It achieves its nonduality not inclusively, but exclusively. Empirical reality is admitted in a provisional way, but in the end it is cast out of the Absolute, out of existence. From the highest perspective, the world is simply not there [emphases ours]. " Once again, even though modern proponents of Advaita do not appear to exclude the world in their vision of nonduality, in the classical view, the world is clearly recognized as being either completely unreal, or only partially real. And this is what Advaita has been historically criticized for. Precisely because of its emphasis on the ultimate unreality and illusory nature of the world and embodied existence, any teaching of how to live in the world is entirely absent. More specifically, the nondual teaching does not in any way address the ethical or moral dimension of human life. And even though modern Advaita does not seem to exclude the world in its nondual view, it still is devoid of any teaching that addresses the realities of human life. Interestingly enough, it appears that historically Advaita did not address ethical or moral questions because, according to Nelson, the highest nondual teachings were " never intended to be a philosophy for the general public. " In fact, he states that they were " formulated by and for a narrow spiritual elite of male brahmins [members of the highest, priestly class], primarily sannyasins [renunciates], who alone were believed qualified to fully appropriate its import. " This practically would have meant that the individual to whom the absolute teachings were revealed would have already fulfilled the demanding moral and ethical qualifications for discipleship. And even more than that, Shankara himself states that the qualifications for discipleship also demanded an extraordinary degree of detachment from and transcendence of worldly desires: The pupil must be dispassionate toward all things noneternal. . . . [Having] abandoned the desire for sons, wealth and worlds, endowed with self-control [and] compassion, he is a brahmin who is internally and externally pure, whose thought is calm, who has reached tranquility. . . . [Thus] let him go to a spiritual teacher who is learned in the scriptures and established in Brahman. The Upadesasahasri The unusual phenomenon occurring in the postmodern spiritual marketplace is that now, as never before in history, what were once considered the highest esoteric teachings, revealed only to those who were prepared and had proven themselves worthy of their unimaginable depth and subtlety, are available to anyone who wanders into a spiritual bookstore. An important question seems to be: Are most seekers genuinely prepared for the psychological upheaval and world- shattering shift of perception that penetration into the Absolute unleashes? Advaita's emphasis on the illusory nature of embodied existence has the potential to give license to human weakness and self-indulgence if the individual is not already firmly grounded in a fundamentally wholesome relationship to life. The unwholesome tendencies characterized by narcissistic, neurotic and deeply cynical convictions so common today create a dangerously weak foundation for a nondual perspective that transcends all pairs of opposites, including right and wrong. While Advaita's great strength is its singular, unwavering emphasis on the Absolute dimension of existence, its weakness is revealed in the limited scope of its singularity. And while any truly absolute view must, by definition, transcend all distinctions, the inherent potential of Advaita or non dualism to inspire a worldview that is perilously empty of any value whatsoever is enormous. Indeed, the potential for escape, rather than genuine transcendence, is great in such an absolute teaching. For to be embraced, absorbed and utterly consumed by the Absolute is one thing but to escape from the inherent complexity of life in order to avoid the overwhelming demand that true surrender requires is another thing altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hur@n...> wrote: > And this is what Advaita has been historically criticized for. > Precisely because of its emphasis on the ultimate unreality and > illusory nature of the world and embodied existence, any teaching of > how to live in the world is entirely absent. More specifically, the > nondual teaching does not in any way address the ethical or moral > dimension of human life. and this is where andrew comes in to tell us how to live. i don't see advaita reaching the level of popularity that the pundits should be so alarmed about. historically the varieties of nondual teachings appealed to only a small percentage of the population who've already been through the aesthetic (seeking beauty, pleasure), ethical and the religious stages...and then for a small few comes the mystical advaita. as wayne puts it (paraphrasing), you don't find spiritual virgins in satsangs. in the nonduality world if a teacher is becoming popular, they're serving sweetened, watered down versions to reach a wider audience. you're never going to see ug krishnamurti or nisargadatta reaching the popularity that osho had. so why is it that andrew's magazine keeps alarming people about the dangers of amoral advaita? well, it's obvious isn't it? andrew borrows from nonduality when it fits him. his students who've never heard before what nonduality is...they think andrew is a genius. if they ever discover that the nondual elements in vedanta have been around longer than bible, andrew needs to make sure his teaching differs from advaita. besides you cannot sell advaita...nothing to teach, no teacher, no teaching, no money...then andrew has to charge for them candy apples from the biblical tree of knowledge...but then again, why worry about andrew anyway. he'll never be that popular. i predict at this new century, based on the new age magazines published in each city, the monopoly of religions will be replaced with the myriad of new age practitioners. hur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 Interesting excerpt! you're never going to see ug krishnamurti or nisargadatta reaching the popularity that osho had. *One of the " Osho websites " in spanish offers one of the most extensive collection of free downloadable books about religion/spirtuality in the whole web (including all the well known books (of) about N, R and others). I don't know much about Osho, but I used and keep using the website. so why is it that andrew's magazine keeps alarming people about the dangers of amoral advaita? well, it's obvious isn't it? andrew borrows from nonduality when it fits him. his students who've never heard before what nonduality is...they think andrew is a genius. *Yes, perhaps he likes what his students think if they ever discover that the nondual elements in vedanta have been around longer than bible, andrew needs to make sure his teaching differs from advaita. besides you cannot sell advaita...nothing to teach, no teacher, no teaching, no money...then andrew has to charge for them candy apples from the biblical tree of knowledge...but then again, why worry about andrew anyway. *Yes, no reason for it! Everything is already in the net, downloadable and free of charge, too. So, nobody needs to go even to a bookstore. he'll never be that popular. i predict at this new century, based on the new age magazines published in each city, the monopoly of religions will be replaced with the myriad of new age practitioners. *The world didn't get very much more unmoralic and unethical with Luther's translation of the bible, although the orthodox catholics, inquisition and the pope opined the " Judgement Day " has come: Oh my goodness, all these stupid and ignorant donkeys able, now, to read and interpret the bible by themselves! The Antichrist is coming! Perhaps it is just the fear to lose money, power, influence or of being simply debunked as the biggest donkey. Buddhists are smart, they sell their books even in supermarkets and take good care of the copyrights...hope your prediction becomes true. " Morality is to scratch oneself, where the other got the itching " (Samuel Beckett) sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Nisargadatta , " skoggman " <skoggman> wrote: > Interesting excerpt! > > > you're never going to see ug krishnamurti or nisargadatta reaching > the popularity that osho had. > > > *One of the " Osho websites " in spanish offers one of the most > extensive collection of free downloadable books about > religion/spirtuality in the whole web (including all the well known > books (of) about N, R and others). I don't know much about Osho, but > I used and keep using the website. > > > so why is it that andrew's magazine keeps alarming people about the > dangers of amoral advaita? well, it's obvious isn't it? andrew > borrows from nonduality when it fits him. > his students who've never heard before what nonduality is...they > think andrew is a genius. > > > *Yes, perhaps he likes what his students think > > > > if they ever discover that the nondual elements in vedanta have been > around longer than bible, andrew needs to make sure his teaching > differs from advaita. besides you cannot sell advaita...nothing to > teach, no teacher, no teaching, no money...then andrew has to charge > for them candy apples from the biblical tree of knowledge...but then > again, why worry about andrew anyway. > > > > *Yes, no reason for it! Everything is already in the net, > downloadable and free of charge, too. So, nobody needs to go even to > a bookstore. > > > he'll never be that popular. i predict at this new century, > based on the new age magazines published in each city, the monopoly > of religions will be replaced with the myriad of new age > practitioners. > > > > *The world didn't get very much more unmoralic and unethical with > Luther's translation of the bible, although the orthodox catholics, > inquisition and the pope opined the " Judgement Day " has come: Oh my > goodness, all these stupid and ignorant donkeys able, now, to read > and interpret the bible by themselves! The Antichrist is coming! > Perhaps it is just the fear to lose money, power, influence or of > being simply debunked as the biggest donkey. Buddhists are smart, > they sell their books even in supermarkets and take good care of the > copyrights...hope your prediction becomes true. > > > > " Morality is to scratch oneself, where the other got the itching " > (Samuel Beckett) > > > sk Quite so. As Lao Tzu observed (and I'm paraphrasing), when they start going on about how unselfishly they are giving you the truth about how selfish everyone else is, and righteously tell you how it really is, so you won't be deluded by all those other folks telling you how it is for their own selfish reasons -- check that you're wallet's in your pocket, don't sign any contracts, and take off as soon as possible. Find someplace where they give you a good meal, a smile, and invite you to relax by the fire. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Interesting..... Some Iraqi dinars in between........... - Hur Guler Nisargadatta Wednesday, August 06, 2003 10:15 AM an article about the dangers of Advaita from WIE godz_will posted this message at the advaita.org board. i'm serving it for this group as a lightly battered goffer for the amusement of nondual cats.An excerpt from an article about Advaita from WIE (Andrew Cohen's magazine).While Advaita's profound inspiration and power to liberate is undeniable, its worldview has not been without its critics. Advaita has no view, let alone a world-view. The absence of the presence of views .........AND......... the absence of the absence of the presence of views,... ......for ease of convention,.... is refered to as the gestalt of Advaita. Even though "modern" Advaita seems to emphasize the indivisible nature of the world and Brahman, or the Self Absolute, If any consequential positing occurs, ........Advaita is lost. Advaita philosophy has traditionally expressed, as noted religious scholar Lance Nelson points out, a "deep metaphysical bias against the world. . . . In the end, the Advaita tradition fails to present a true nondualism of world and Absolute. . . . It is rather an acosmic monism. It achieves its nonduality not inclusively, but exclusively. Empirical reality is admitted in a provisional way, but in the end it is cast out of the Absolute, out of existence. From the highest perspective, the world is simply not there [emphases ours]." Highest or lowest, .....a perspective births the world. A negated world is also a perspective. Once again, even though modern proponents of Advaita do not appear to exclude the world in their vision of nonduality, in the classical view, the world is clearly recognized as being either completely unreal, or only partially real. LOL. Partially pregnant, eh. And this is what Advaita has been historically criticized for. Precisely because of its emphasis on the ultimate unreality and illusory nature of the world and embodied existence, any teaching of how to live in the world is entirely absent. A "how", establishes a religion. Advaita is the end of all religion. More specifically, the nondual teaching does not in any way address the ethical or moral dimension of human life. That which is related to time, i.e. changes with time and thus with circumstances,.....hooplas of the mind. And even though modern Advaita does not seem to exclude the world in its nondual view, it still is devoid of any teaching that addresses the realities of human life. Any attempt to address anything, including the so called realities of human life, is to apriori acknowledge and accept the existence of the issue. As the dude in the diaper, muttered, ...."before trying to solve the problem, should you not find out who has the problem?" A grasp of Advaita (to use a phrase), may not save your marriage, may not make you a better parent to deal with your teenager daughter, may not make you tons of money. Or it may. Interestingly enough, it appears that historically Advaita did not address ethical or moral questions because, according to Nelson, the highest nondual teachings were "never intended to be a philosophy for the general public." LOL. There is no schools of Advaita, there is no thingy called, no centre of Advaitic authority, which is authorised to deal or address. The Hindu will never accept, but....singing farmers, carpenters, cobblers, householders, ......some five thousand years back appercieved and were moved to sing, ...........the arising expressings. The songs were carried by one to another. It was members of the general public who sang these songs, not learned Brahmins or theocratic priests. Advaita literally means not-Two. That is all. Not-Two.............does not posit.............a One or a Self or an Absolute or a ParamBrahma. Not-Two just connotes........Not-two. In the apperception of this, .............where is the self left, and thus where is the "other" left, ......for the self to have ethical or moral questions to deal with. Ethics, morality and thus the "how",...........can only exist in the gestalt of duality. The exposure of the very gestalt of duality and not because it is some esoteric teachings to be whispered in some darkened room, in the ears of a select few, .........makes Advaita,...what it is. In fact, he states that they were "formulated by and for a narrow spiritual elite of male brahmins [members of the highest, priestly class], primarily sannyasins [renunciates], who alone were believed qualified to fully appropriate its import." Baloney. This practically would have meant that the individual to whom the absolute teachings were revealed would have already fulfilled the demanding moral and ethical qualifications for discipleship. And even more than that, Shankara himself states that the qualifications for discipleship also demanded an extraordinary degree of detachment from and transcendence of worldly desires: And this same Shankar, when a low caste villager crossed his path, went back to the river Ganges to have another bath in order to purify himself and sit in sadhna. The Upanshidic sages who sang and expressed Advaita, were householders, performing all the tasks that a householder's duties entail, but were so gone from themselves, ........that very few names remain for attributions. The singers of yore truly exampled,.......... There is singing but no singer thereof There is writing but no author thereof. There is speaking, but no speaker thereof There is doing, but no doer thereof. Yes, .........apperception of Advaita is rare. The pupil must be dispassionate toward all things noneternal. . . . [Having] abandoned the desire for sons, wealth and worlds, endowed with self-control [and] compassion, he is a brahmin who is internally and externally pure, whose thought is calm, who has reached tranquility. . . . [Thus] let him go to a spiritual teacher who is learned in the scriptures and established in Brahman. The Upadesasahasri The unusual phenomenon occurring in the postmodern spiritual marketplace is that now, as never before in history, what were once considered the highest esoteric teachings, revealed only to those who were prepared and had proven themselves worthy of their unimaginable depth and subtlety, are available to anyone who wanders into a spiritual bookstore. LOL That is true. But so what? When the "original" dudes sang, I am sure the bulk of the audience, back five thousand years ago, prefered Britteny Spears, or whoever was topping the charts, back then. An important question seems to be: Are most seekers genuinely prepared for the psychological upheaval and world-shattering shift of perception that penetration into the Absolute unleashes? The upheaval and the shift, happens only through a specific object, at a specific time, at a specific place, ...............because non-upheaval, non-shift was not possible to occur through that object, in that place in that time. Whether a paper-back from Amazon.com is the instrument or a sight of a leaf leaving the sanctuary of it's home and floating in the breeze in total trust,...is the instrument,.... ......to effect that upheaval,...........what difference does it make. Advaita's emphasis on the illusory nature of embodied existence has the potential to give license to human weakness and self-indulgence if the individual is not already firmly grounded in a fundamentally wholesome relationship to life. Such a functioning, labeled by some as "human weakness" or "indulgence",.........will not await the blessing of Advaita,...to indulge, ............if it is to rock. The unwholesome tendencies characterized by narcissistic, neurotic and deeply cynical convictions so common today create a dangerously weak foundation for a nondual perspective that transcends all pairs of opposites, including right and wrong. Part of "the thickening of the plot". While Advaita's great strength is its singular, unwavering emphasis on the Absolute dimension of existence, its weakness is revealed in the limited scope of its singularity. provided an assumption that a scoping is a paramount need, such an assumption is believed. And while any truly absolute view must, by definition, transcend all distinctions, the inherent potential of Advaita or non dualism to inspire a worldview that is perilously empty of any value whatsoever is enormous. It is the very emptiness of the presence of all values,......... including the value labled Advaita. Apperception of Advaita, .............is the end of the relevance of Advaita. Indeed, the potential for escape, rather than genuine transcendence, is great in such an absolute teaching. For to be embraced, absorbed and utterly consumed by the Absolute is one thing but to escape from the inherent complexity of life in order to avoid the overwhelming demand that true surrender requires is another thing altogether. Sure. Both being hooplas, ........the inter-alia differential profoundity,......... is yet another baloney hoopla. So whether one takes place or the other,........rock-away-baby. Go.... Doooooobeeeee Dooooooobeeeee Dooooooo. 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Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hur@n...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hur@n...> wrote: > > And this is what Advaita has been historically criticized for. > > Precisely because of its emphasis on the ultimate unreality and > > illusory nature of the world and embodied existence, any teaching > of > > how to live in the world is entirely absent. More specifically, the > > nondual teaching does not in any way address the ethical or moral > > dimension of human life. > > and this is where andrew comes in to tell us how to live. > > i don't see advaita reaching the level of popularity that the pundits > should be so alarmed about. historically the varieties of nondual > teachings appealed to only a small percentage of the population > who've already been through the aesthetic (seeking beauty, pleasure), > ethical and the religious stages...and then for a small few comes the > mystical advaita. as wayne puts it (paraphrasing), you don't find > spiritual virgins in satsangs. > > in the nonduality world if a teacher is becoming popular, they're > serving sweetened, watered down versions to reach a wider audience. > you're never going to see ug krishnamurti or nisargadatta reaching > the popularity that osho had. so why is it that andrew's magazine > keeps alarming people about the dangers of amoral advaita? well, it's > obvious isn't it? andrew borrows from nonduality when it fits him. > his students who've never heard before what nonduality is...they > think andrew is a genius. if they ever discover that the nondual > elements in vedanta have been around longer than bible, andrew needs > to make sure his teaching differs from advaita. besides you cannot > sell advaita...nothing to teach, no teacher, no teaching, no > money...then andrew has to charge for them candy apples from the > biblical tree of knowledge...but then again, why worry about andrew > anyway. he'll never be that popular. i predict at this new century, > based on the new age magazines published in each city, the monopoly > of religions will be replaced with the myriad of new age > practitioners. > > hur Hi Hur, Nice meeting you here, this is " bollocks " from Advaita.org. The main problem I see with the neo-advaita scene is that a lot of emotionally (spiritually?)immature people are getting their hands on these teachings which were not meant for them. By 'meant' I mean, they are not ready relatively speaking to put to use such teachings. The way I see it, these teachings are meant to remove a very specific thorn and that's it! Not that they are " elite " teachings or " high " or any of that non-sense, but they are most useful at a specific point in the " path " . At least, this has been my limited experience. They're not meant to be a religion or a set of beliefs. At best they are a description of what is. At worst, they provide a very solid conceptual framework through which people can escape from facing themselves. " There's nobody here to face and nothing is out of place -- all is happening as it must... " Yeah, right!! ;-) Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hur@n...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hur@n...> wrote: > > > And this is what Advaita has been historically criticized for. > > > Precisely because of its emphasis on the ultimate unreality and > > > illusory nature of the world and embodied existence, any teaching > > of > > > how to live in the world is entirely absent. More specifically, > the > > > nondual teaching does not in any way address the ethical or moral > > > dimension of human life. > > > > and this is where andrew comes in to tell us how to live. > > > > i don't see advaita reaching the level of popularity that the > pundits > > should be so alarmed about. historically the varieties of nondual > > teachings appealed to only a small percentage of the population > > who've already been through the aesthetic (seeking beauty, > pleasure), > > ethical and the religious stages...and then for a small few comes > the > > mystical advaita. as wayne puts it (paraphrasing), you don't find > > spiritual virgins in satsangs. > > > > in the nonduality world if a teacher is becoming popular, they're > > serving sweetened, watered down versions to reach a wider audience. > > you're never going to see ug krishnamurti or nisargadatta reaching > > the popularity that osho had. so why is it that andrew's magazine > > keeps alarming people about the dangers of amoral advaita? well, > it's > > obvious isn't it? andrew borrows from nonduality when it fits him. > > his students who've never heard before what nonduality is...they > > think andrew is a genius. if they ever discover that the nondual > > elements in vedanta have been around longer than bible, andrew > needs > > to make sure his teaching differs from advaita. besides you cannot > > sell advaita...nothing to teach, no teacher, no teaching, no > > money...then andrew has to charge for them candy apples from the > > biblical tree of knowledge...but then again, why worry about andrew > > anyway. he'll never be that popular. i predict at this new century, > > based on the new age magazines published in each city, the monopoly > > of religions will be replaced with the myriad of new age > > practitioners. > > > > hur > > Hi Hur, > > Nice meeting you here, this is " bollocks " from Advaita.org. > > The main problem I see with the neo-advaita scene is that a lot of > emotionally (spiritually?)immature people are getting their hands on > these teachings which were not meant for them. By 'meant' I mean, > they are not ready relatively speaking to put to use such teachings. > The way I see it, these teachings are meant to remove a very specific > thorn and that's it! Not that they are " elite " teachings or " high " or > any of that non-sense, but they are most useful at a specific point > in the " path " . At least, this has been my limited experience. > > They're not meant to be a religion or a set of beliefs. At best they > are a description of what is. > > At worst, they provide a very solid conceptual framework through > which people can escape from facing themselves. " There's nobody here > to face and nothing is out of place -- all is happening as it must... " > Yeah, right!! ;-) > > Joe So there is no problem. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nice meeting you here, this is " bollocks " from Advaita.org. > hi joe aka bollocks, good to see you here too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Elizabeth Wells " <elizabethwells8@e...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " > <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " <hur@n...> > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Hur Guler " > <hur@n...> wrote: > > > > And this is what Advaita has been historically criticized for. > > > > Precisely because of its emphasis on the ultimate unreality > and > > > > illusory nature of the world and embodied existence, any > teaching > > > of > > > > how to live in the world is entirely absent. More specifically, > > the > > > > nondual teaching does not in any way address the ethical > or moral > > > > dimension of human life. > > > > > > and this is where andrew comes in to tell us how to live. > > > > > > i don't see advaita reaching the level of popularity that the > > pundits > > > should be so alarmed about. historically the varieties of > nondual > > > teachings appealed to only a small percentage of the > population > > > who've already been through the aesthetic (seeking beauty, > > pleasure), > > > ethical and the religious stages...and then for a small few > comes > > the > > > mystical advaita. as wayne puts it (paraphrasing), you don't > find > > > spiritual virgins in satsangs. > > > > > > in the nonduality world if a teacher is becoming popular, > they're > > > serving sweetened, watered down versions to reach a wider > audience. > > > you're never going to see ug krishnamurti or nisargadatta > reaching > > > the popularity that osho had. so why is it that andrew's > magazine > > > keeps alarming people about the dangers of amoral > advaita? well, > > it's > > > obvious isn't it? andrew borrows from nonduality when it fits > him. > > > his students who've never heard before what nonduality > is...they > > > think andrew is a genius. if they ever discover that the > nondual > > > elements in vedanta have been around longer than bible, > andrew > > needs > > > to make sure his teaching differs from advaita. besides you > cannot > > > sell advaita...nothing to teach, no teacher, no teaching, no > > > money...then andrew has to charge for them candy apples > from the > > > biblical tree of knowledge...but then again, why worry about > andrew > > > anyway. he'll never be that popular. i predict at this new > century, > > > based on the new age magazines published in each city, the > monopoly > > > of religions will be replaced with the myriad of new age > > > practitioners. > > > > > > hur > > > > Hi Hur, > > > > Nice meeting you here, this is " bollocks " from Advaita.org. > > > > The main problem I see with the neo-advaita scene is that a lot > of > > emotionally (spiritually?)immature people are getting their > hands on > > these teachings which were not meant for them. By 'meant' I > mean, > > they are not ready relatively speaking to put to use such > teachings. > > The way I see it, these teachings are meant to remove a very > specific > > thorn and that's it! Not that they are " elite " teachings or " high " or > > any of that non-sense, but they are most useful at a specific > point > > in the " path " . At least, this has been my limited experience. > > > > They're not meant to be a religion or a set of beliefs. At best > they > > are a description of what is. > > > > At worst, they provide a very solid conceptual framework > through > > which people can escape from facing themselves. " There's > nobody here > > to face and nothing is out of place -- all is happening as it > must... " > > Yeah, right!! ;-) > > > > Joe > > > > > So there is no problem. Exactly the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 " There's > > nobody here > > > to face and nothing is out of place -- all is happening as it > > must... " > > > Yeah, right!! ;-) > > > > > > Joe > > ------------------ > > > > > > So there is no problem. > El ------------------- > > Exactly the problem. Joe --------------------- Well, there are no problems. Other than imaginary ones created by imaginary entities. Am " I " an imaginary entity? Not when " I " stands alone. Quit pissing and...... Check it out! El .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Elizabeth Wells " <elizabethwells8@e...> wrote: > " There's > > > nobody here > > > > to face and nothing is out of place -- all is happening as it > > > must... " > > > > Yeah, right!! ;-) > > > > > > > > Joe > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > > > So there is no problem. > > > El > ------------------- > > > > > Exactly the problem. > > Joe > > --------------------- > > Well, there are no problems. > > Other than imaginary ones created by imaginary entities. > > Am " I " an imaginary entity? > > Not when " I " stands alone. > > > Quit pissing and...... > > Check it out! > > > El > > > . No problems -- easy to say and talk about -- just like the imaginary I, which although imaginary, must still defend its viewpoint. No problems -- until the cat pisses on the couch again. Or until traffic is backed up on the 5, until my wife cheats on me -- these little nondual nuggets of quasi-wisdom only take one so far. No problems -- sure yet problems there are. Pissing the night away, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Elizabeth Wells " > <elizabethwells8@e...> wrote: > > " There's > > > > nobody here > > > > > to face and nothing is out of place -- all is happening as it > > > > must... " > > > > > Yeah, right!! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > So there is no problem. > > > > > El > > ------------------- > > > > > > > > Exactly the problem. > > > > Joe > > > > --------------------- > > > > Well, there are no problems. > > > > Other than imaginary ones created by imaginary entities. > > > > Am " I " an imaginary entity? > > > > Not when " I " stands alone. > > > > > > Quit pissing and...... > > > > Check it out! > > > > > > El > > > > > > . > > No problems -- easy to say and talk about -- just like the imaginary > I, which although imaginary, must still defend its viewpoint. > > No problems -- until the cat pisses on the couch again. Or until > traffic is backed up on the 5, until my wife cheats on me -- these > little nondual nuggets of quasi-wisdom only take one so far. > > No problems -- sure > yet problems there are. > > Pissing the night away, > Joe Dear Joe, The " everything is fine " statements are of a non-dual, ultimate unspeakable " view " ...They are meant to relax you and pique your interest. You must find out for yourself if this is so. You cannot investigate or " be still " if you are running around with your head cut off. So first, you relax alittle and then you look. Who is upset that the cat pissed? You wish you didn't have to clean it. You have other things you'd like to do. You're stuck in traffic and you wish you weren't. I'ts not perfect, is it? When you are deep asleep, where are the problems? And yet the same you exists in sleep and is here now. What has changed and brought the problems? The mind has entered and you believe you *are* the mind and the body. But in sleep you are there without mind and body. Advaita is about understanding and not about making everything perfect, the way you want it. It is about changing your perspective, your attitude, and finding out who is this one you identify with. Ultimately, it is about breaking the limiting identification with the body and realising who you really are. You are having problems? So what? You are not " having " problems. They happen before you and the " you " wants something else. This isn't to be believed in. It is to be directly investigated. Peace, ))))))Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 > Pissing the night away, > Joe ----- Pissing the night(Joe) away. Flush. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Shawn Hair " <shawn@w...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " > > No problems -- easy to say and talk about -- just like the > imaginary > > I, which although imaginary, must still defend its viewpoint. > > > > No problems -- until the cat pisses on the couch again. Or until > > traffic is backed up on the 5, until my wife cheats on me -- > these > > little nondual nuggets of quasi-wisdom only take one so far. > > > > No problems -- sure > > yet problems there are. > > > > Pissing the night away, > > Joe > > > Dear Joe, > > The " everything is fine " statements are of a non-dual, ultimate > unspeakable " view " ...They are meant to relax you and pique your > interest. You must find out for yourself if this is so. > > You cannot investigate or " be still " if you are running around with > your head cut off. So first, you relax alittle and then you look. > Who is upset that the cat pissed? You wish you didn't have to > clean it. You have other things you'd like to do. You're stuck in > traffic and you wish you weren't. I'ts not perfect, is it? > > When you are deep asleep, where are the problems? And yet > the same you exists in sleep and is here now. What has > changed and brought the problems? > The mind has entered and you believe you *are* the mind and > the body. But in sleep you are there without mind and body. > > Advaita is about understanding and not about making everything > perfect, the way you want it. It is about changing your perspective, > your attitude, and finding out who is this one you identify with. > > Ultimately, it is about breaking the limiting identification with the > body and realising who you really are. You are having problems? > So what? You are not " having " problems. They happen before > you and the " you " wants something else. > > This isn't to be believed in. It is to be directly investigated. > > Peace, > > ))))))Shawn Shawn, Thanks, yes this is all very clear to me. I know there are ultimately no problems. I am referring to a tendency in the advaita crowd to dismiss things intellectually. " There are no problems " , for example -- yes, fine, true. But do one's actions reflect this " no problems " statement? Or are there areas of one's life that one avoids, because it's too difficult to look into? Because it's bunk to say there are no problems and no 'me' to look into and yet one cannot get on with one's spouse and co-workers. There needs to be a deepening, obviously, right. Otherwise it's covering, a philosophical stance, an avoidance tactic. Part of the path is dealing directly with what is, and that what is often manifests as anger, disappointment, etc. This needs to be gone through, not over or around -- and when I hear " There are no problems " I hear someone going around. See ya, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Joe Wrote: ____ Shawn, Thanks, yes this is all very clear to me. I know there are ultimately no problems. I am referring to a tendency in the advaita crowd to dismiss things intellectually. " There are no problems " , for example -- yes, fine, true. But do one's actions reflect this " no problems " statement? Or are there areas of one's life that one avoids, because it's too difficult to look into? Because it's bunk to say there are no problems and no 'me' to look into and yet one cannot get on with one's spouse and co-workers. There needs to be a deepening, obviously, right. Otherwise it's covering, a philosophical stance, an avoidance tactic. Part of the path is dealing directly with what is, and that what is often manifests as anger, disappointment, etc. This needs to be gone through, not over or around -- and when I hear " There are no problems " I hear someone going around. See ya, Joe ____________ Very relevent stuff here Joe. It is about dealing directly with what is. This is where information doesn't help. Toby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Shawn Hair " <shawn@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " > > > No problems -- easy to say and talk about -- just like the > > imaginary > > > I, which although imaginary, must still defend its viewpoint. > > > > > > No problems -- until the cat pisses on the couch again. Or until > > > traffic is backed up on the 5, until my wife cheats on me -- > > these > > > little nondual nuggets of quasi-wisdom only take one so far. > > > > > > No problems -- sure > > > yet problems there are. > > > > > > Pissing the night away, > > > Joe > > > > > > Dear Joe, > > > > The " everything is fine " statements are of a non-dual, ultimate > > unspeakable " view " ...They are meant to relax you and pique your > > interest. You must find out for yourself if this is so. > > > > You cannot investigate or " be still " if you are running around with > > your head cut off. So first, you relax alittle and then you look. > > Who is upset that the cat pissed? You wish you didn't have to > > clean it. You have other things you'd like to do. You're stuck in > > traffic and you wish you weren't. I'ts not perfect, is it? > > > > When you are deep asleep, where are the problems? And yet > > the same you exists in sleep and is here now. What has > > changed and brought the problems? > > The mind has entered and you believe you *are* the mind and > > the body. But in sleep you are there without mind and body. > > > > Advaita is about understanding and not about making everything > > perfect, the way you want it. It is about changing your > perspective, > > your attitude, and finding out who is this one you identify with. > > > > Ultimately, it is about breaking the limiting identification with > the > > body and realising who you really are. You are having problems? > > So what? You are not " having " problems. They happen before > > you and the " you " wants something else. > > > > This isn't to be believed in. It is to be directly investigated. > > > > Peace, > > > > ))))))Shawn > > Shawn, > > Thanks, yes this is all very clear to me. > > I know there are ultimately no problems. > > I am referring to a tendency in the advaita crowd to dismiss things > intellectually. " There are no problems " , for example -- yes, fine, > true. But do one's actions reflect this " no problems " statement? Or > are there areas of one's life that one avoids, because it's too > difficult to look into? > > Because it's bunk to say there are no problems and no 'me' to look > into and yet one cannot get on with one's spouse and co-workers. > There needs to be a deepening, obviously, right. Otherwise it's > covering, a philosophical stance, an avoidance tactic. > > Part of the path is dealing directly with what is, and that what is > often manifests as anger, disappointment, etc. This needs to be gone > through, not over or around -- and when I hear " There are no > problems " I hear someone going around. > > See ya, > Joe Dear Joe, You presume that. Why worry about somebody else? It is true, there are lots of people on these groups who understand brilliantly and have great intellects and yet it is so obvious they have not " taken it to the bank. " They can describe the interior as no interior and so forth, but there is lacking a profound love and ability to move smoothly through life. Their attitude seems angry and uncaring. Don't worry about them. They are trouble. They only wish to argue and support themselves. They are still trapped in the mind and now have merely added this advaita crap to their reportiore. When " you " disappear there is a profound Love and if it is not evident, it is probably because they have NOT dissappeared as they say. This is called the " talking school " . It is rubbish. It is all God or whatever in the ultimate sense, but that is not helpful to one still looking as I am. I am not rid of this notion that I am the body, but I am hopeful and can see readily those who pretend. The Self recognises the Self. )))))))Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Shawn, It seems your writing has taken on a new nature. It is softer and more refreshing than it used to be. Maybe it's just me... not sure. Toby > > Shawn Hair [sMTP:shawn] > Friday, August 08, 2003 11:03 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: an article about the dangers of Advaita from WIE > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " > <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Shawn Hair " > <shawn@w...> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " > > > > No problems -- easy to say and talk about -- just like the > > > imaginary > > > > I, which although imaginary, must still defend its viewpoint. > > > > > > > > No problems -- until the cat pisses on the couch again. Or > until > > > > traffic is backed up on the 5, until my wife cheats on me -- > > > these > > > > little nondual nuggets of quasi-wisdom only take one so > far. > > > > > > > > No problems -- sure > > > > yet problems there are. > > > > > > > > Pissing the night away, > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > Dear Joe, > > > > > > The " everything is fine " statements are of a non-dual, > ultimate > > > unspeakable " view " ...They are meant to relax you and pique > your > > > interest. You must find out for yourself if this is so. > > > > > > You cannot investigate or " be still " if you are running around > with > > > your head cut off. So first, you relax alittle and then you look. > > > Who is upset that the cat pissed? You wish you didn't have to > > > clean it. You have other things you'd like to do. You're stuck in > > > traffic and you wish you weren't. I'ts not perfect, is it? > > > > > > When you are deep asleep, where are the problems? And > yet > > > the same you exists in sleep and is here now. What has > > > changed and brought the problems? > > > The mind has entered and you believe you *are* the mind > and > > > the body. But in sleep you are there without mind and body. > > > > > > Advaita is about understanding and not about making > everything > > > perfect, the way you want it. It is about changing your > > perspective, > > > your attitude, and finding out who is this one you identify with. > > > > > > Ultimately, it is about breaking the limiting identification with > > the > > > body and realising who you really are. You are having > problems? > > > So what? You are not " having " problems. They happen > before > > > you and the " you " wants something else. > > > > > > This isn't to be believed in. It is to be directly investigated. > > > > > > Peace, > > > > > > ))))))Shawn > > > > Shawn, > > > > Thanks, yes this is all very clear to me. > > > > I know there are ultimately no problems. > > > > I am referring to a tendency in the advaita crowd to dismiss > things > > intellectually. " There are no problems " , for example -- yes, fine, > > true. But do one's actions reflect this " no problems " statement? > Or > > are there areas of one's life that one avoids, because it's too > > difficult to look into? > > > > Because it's bunk to say there are no problems and no 'me' to > look > > into and yet one cannot get on with one's spouse and > co-workers. > > There needs to be a deepening, obviously, right. Otherwise it's > > covering, a philosophical stance, an avoidance tactic. > > > > Part of the path is dealing directly with what is, and that what is > > often manifests as anger, disappointment, etc. This needs to > be gone > > through, not over or around -- and when I hear " There are no > > problems " I hear someone going around. > > > > See ya, > > Joe > > Dear Joe, > You presume that. Why worry about somebody else? It is true, > there are lots of people on these groups who understand > brilliantly and have great intellects and yet it is so obvious they > have not " taken it to the bank. " They can describe the interior as > > no interior and so forth, but there is lacking a profound love and > ability to move smoothly through life. Their attitude seems angry > and uncaring. Don't worry about them. They are trouble. They > only wish to argue and support themselves. They are still > trapped in the mind and now have merely added this advaita > crap to their reportiore. When " you " disappear there is a profound > Love and if it is not evident, it is probably because they have NOT > dissappeared as they say. > > This is called the " talking school " . It is rubbish. It is all God or > whatever in the ultimate sense, but that is not helpful to one still > looking as I am. I am not rid of this notion that I am the body, but I > am hopeful and can see readily those who pretend. The Self > recognises the Self. > > )))))))Shawn > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Wilson, Toby " <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > Shawn, > > It seems your writing has taken on a new nature. It is softer and more refreshing than it used to be. Maybe it's just me... not sure. > > Toby Hahahahah yes proabably just you. But thanks just the same. love for you Toby, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 ahhhh... how we project... love for you also. Toby > > Shawn Hair [sMTP:shawn] > Friday, August 08, 2003 11:32 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: an article about the dangers of Advaita from WIE > > Nisargadatta , " Wilson, Toby " > <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > > Shawn, > > > > It seems your writing has taken on a new nature. It is softer > and more refreshing than it used to be. Maybe it's just me... not > sure. > > > > Toby > > > Hahahahah yes proabably just you. But thanks just the same. > > love for you Toby, > > Shawn > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 PS I still think it's your writing. ;-) > > Wilson, Toby > Friday, August 08, 2003 11:40 AM > Nisargadatta > RE: Re: an article about the dangers of Advaita from WIE > > ahhhh... how we project... love for you also. > > Toby > > > > > Shawn Hair [sMTP:shawn] > > Friday, August 08, 2003 11:32 AM > > Nisargadatta > > Re: an article about the dangers of Advaita from WIE > > > > Nisargadatta , " Wilson, Toby " > > <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > > > Shawn, > > > > > > It seems your writing has taken on a new nature. It is softer > > and more refreshing than it used to be. Maybe it's just me... not > > sure. > > > > > > Toby > > > > > > Hahahahah yes proabably just you. But thanks just the same. > > > > love for you Toby, > > > > Shawn > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Elizabeth Wells " > <elizabethwells8@e...> wrote: > > " There's > > > > nobody here > > > > > to face and nothing is out of place -- all is happening as it > > > > must... " > > > > > Yeah, right!! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > So there is no problem. > > > > > El > > ------------------- > > > > > > > > Exactly the problem. > > > > Joe > > > > --------------------- > > > > Well, there are no problems. > > > > Other than imaginary ones created by imaginary entities. > > > > Am " I " an imaginary entity? > > > > Not when " I " stands alone. > > > > > > Quit pissing and...... > > > > Check it out! > > > > > > El > > > > > > . > > No problems -- easy to say and talk about -- just like the imaginary > I, which although imaginary, must still defend its viewpoint. > > No problems -- until the cat pisses on the couch again. Or until > traffic is backed up on the 5, until my wife cheats on me -- these > little nondual nuggets of quasi-wisdom only take one so far. > > No problems -- sure > yet problems there are. > > Pissing the night away, > Joe I think, Joe, that you must be referring to instances where Advaita is used as a spiritual " foolosophy " which gets layered over emotional/mental/physical issues to defend against those very issues. For instance, the guy who regularly beats up his wife (or vice versa!) who, instead of attending to his dysfunctional emotional state will say, " Well, everything is happening just as it is meant to--there is no doer " , and will ignore the domestic abuse situation. It's like what Ramakrishna supposedly said, " I instructed my students to give up their attachments, and instead they gave up their common sense. " no pissing or moaning allowed, Freyja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Interesting..... Some Iraqi dinars in between........... - Hur Guler Nisargadatta Wednesday, August 06, 2003 10:15 AM an article about the dangers of Advaita from WIE godz_will posted this message at the advaita.org board. i'm serving it for this group as a lightly battered goffer for the amusement of nondual cats. An excerpt from an article about Advaita from WIE (Andrew Cohen's magazine). While Advaita's profound inspiration and power to liberate is undeniable, its worldview has not been without its critics. ---- Advaita has no view, let alone a world-view. The absence of the presence of views .........AND......... the absence of the absence of the presence of views,... ......for ease of convention,.... is refered to as the gestalt of Advaita. -------- Even though " modern " Advaita seems to emphasize the indivisible nature of the world and Brahman, or the Self Absolute, ---- If any consequential positing occurs, ........Advaita is lost. ----- Advaita philosophy has traditionally expressed, as noted religious scholar Lance Nelson points out, a " deep metaphysical bias against the world. . . . In the end, the Advaita tradition fails to present a true nondualism of world and Absolute. . . . It is rather an acosmic monism. It achieves its nonduality not inclusively, but exclusively. Empirical reality is admitted in a provisional way, but in the end it is cast out of the Absolute, out of existence. From the highest perspective, the world is simply not there [emphases ours]. " ------- Highest or lowest, .....a perspective births the world. A negated world is also a perspective. -------- Once again, even though modern proponents of Advaita do not appear to exclude the world in their vision of nonduality, in the classical view, the world is clearly recognized as being either completely unreal, or only partially real. -------- LOL. Partially pregnant, eh. -------- And this is what Advaita has been historically criticized for. Precisely because of its emphasis on the ultimate unreality and illusory nature of the world and embodied existence, any teaching of how to live in the world is entirely absent. -------- A " how " , establishes a religion. Advaita is the end of all religion. ------- More specifically, the nondual teaching does not in any way address the ethical or moral dimension of human life. ------- That which is related to time, i.e. changes with time and thus with circumstances,.....hooplas of the mind. -------- And even though modern Advaita does not seem to exclude the world in its nondual view, it still is devoid of any teaching that addresses the realities of human life. ---------- Any attempt to address anything, including the so called realities of human life, is to apriori acknowledge and accept the existence of the issue. As the dude in the diaper, muttered, .... " before trying to solve the problem, should you not find out who has the problem? " A grasp of Advaita (to use a phrase), may not save your marriage, may not make you a better parent to deal with your teenager daughter, may not make you tons of money. Or it may. ---------- Interestingly enough, it appears that historically Advaita did not address ethical or moral questions because, according to Nelson, the highest nondual teachings were " never intended to be a philosophy for the general public. " --------- LOL. There is no schools of Advaita, there is no thingy called, no centre of Advaitic authority, which is authorised to deal or address. The Hindu will never accept, but....singing farmers, carpenters, cobblers, householders, ......some five thousand years back appercieved and were moved to sing, ...........the arising expressings. The songs were carried by one to another. It was members of the general public who sang these songs, not learned Brahmins or theocratic priests. Advaita literally means not-Two. That is all. Not-Two.............does not posit.............a One or a Self or an Absolute or a ParamBrahma. Not-Two just connotes........Not-two. In the apperception of this, .............where is the self left, and thus where is the " other " left, ......for the self to have ethical or moral questions to deal with. Ethics, morality and thus the " how " ,...........can only exist in the gestalt of duality. The exposure of the very gestalt of duality and not because it is some esoteric teachings to be whispered in some darkened room, in the ears of a select few, .........makes Advaita,...what it is. ---------- In fact, he states that they were " formulated by and for a narrow spiritual elite of male brahmins [members of the highest, priestly class], primarily sannyasins [renunciates], who alone were believed qualified to fully appropriate its import. " --------- Baloney. -------- This practically would have meant that the individual to whom the absolute teachings were revealed would have already fulfilled the demanding moral and ethical qualifications for discipleship. And even more than that, Shankara himself states that the qualifications for discipleship also demanded an extraordinary degree of detachment from and transcendence of worldly desires: ---------- And this same Shankar, when a low caste villager crossed his path, went back to the river Ganges to have another bath in order to purify himself and sit in sadhna. The Upanshidic sages who sang and expressed Advaita, were householders, performing all the tasks that a householder's duties entail, but were so gone from themselves, ........that very few names remain for attributions. The singers of yore truly exampled,.......... There is singing but no singer thereof There is writing but no author thereof. There is speaking, but no speaker thereof There is doing, but no doer thereof. Yes, .........apperception of Advaita is rare. ----------- The pupil must be dispassionate toward all things noneternal. . . . [Having] abandoned the desire for sons, wealth and worlds, endowed with self-control [and] compassion, he is a brahmin who is internally and externally pure, whose thought is calm, who has reached tranquility. . . . [Thus] let him go to a spiritual teacher who is learned in the scriptures and established in Brahman. The Upadesasahasri The unusual phenomenon occurring in the postmodern spiritual marketplace is that now, as never before in history, what were once considered the highest esoteric teachings, revealed only to those who were prepared and had proven themselves worthy of their unimaginable depth and subtlety, are available to anyone who wanders into a spiritual bookstore. ---------- LOL That is true. But so what? When the " original " dudes sang, I am sure the bulk of the audience, back five thousand years ago, prefered Britteny Spears, or whoever was topping the charts, back then. --------- An important question seems to be: Are most seekers genuinely prepared for the psychological upheaval and world- shattering shift of perception that penetration into the Absolute unleashes? --------- The upheaval and the shift, happens only through a specific object, at a specific time, at a specific place, ...............because non- upheaval, non-shift was not possible to occur through that object, in that place in that time. Whether a paper-back from Amazon.com is the instrument or a sight of a leaf leaving the sanctuary of it's home and floating in the breeze in total trust,...is the instrument,.... ......to effect that upheaval,...........what difference does it make. ---------- Advaita's emphasis on the illusory nature of embodied existence has the potential to give license to human weakness and self-indulgence if the individual is not already firmly grounded in a fundamentally wholesome relationship to life. -------------- Such a functioning, labeled by some as " human weakness " or " indulgence " ,.........will not await the blessing of Advaita,...to indulge, ............if it is to rock. ---------- The unwholesome tendencies characterized by narcissistic, neurotic and deeply cynical convictions so common today create a dangerously weak foundation for a nondual perspective that transcends all pairs of opposites, including right and wrong. ---------- Part of " the thickening of the plot " . ------------- While Advaita's great strength is its singular, unwavering emphasis on the Absolute dimension of existence, its weakness is revealed in the limited scope of its singularity. ------- provided an assumption that a scoping is a paramount need, such an assumption is believed. ----- And while any truly absolute view must, by definition, transcend all distinctions, the inherent potential of Advaita or non dualism to inspire a worldview that is perilously empty of any value whatsoever is enormous. ----------- It is the very emptiness of the presence of all values,......... including the value labled Advaita. Apperception of Advaita, .............is the end of the relevance of Advaita. ------------- Indeed, the potential for escape, rather than genuine transcendence, is great in such an absolute teaching. For to be embraced, absorbed and utterly consumed by the Absolute is one thing but to escape from the inherent complexity of life in order to avoid the overwhelming demand that true surrender requires is another thing altogether. -------------- Sure. Both being hooplas, ........the inter-alia differential profoundity,......... is yet another baloney hoopla. So whether one takes place or the other,........rock-away-baby. Go.... Doooooobeeeee Dooooooobeeeee Dooooooo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 << For instance, the guy who regularly beats up his wife (or vice versa!) who, instead of attending to his dysfunctional emotional state will say, " Well, everything is happening just as it is meant to--there is no doer " , and will ignore the domestic abuse situation. >> I'm imagining something like an insanity defense.... " You Honor, my client pleads, per his non-dual spiritual path, that there is no doer. And therefore my client pleads not-guilty to beating his wife. " The judge says, " Well then, he will have no issue with going to jail then, will he? Since we will be sending nobody. " -Bill carolina112900 [freyjartist] Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:25 PM Nisargadatta Re: an article about the dangers of Advaita from WIE Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Elizabeth Wells " > <elizabethwells8@e...> wrote: > > " There's > > > > nobody here > > > > > to face and nothing is out of place -- all is happening as it > > > > must... " > > > > > Yeah, right!! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > So there is no problem. > > > > > El > > ------------------- > > > > > > > > Exactly the problem. > > > > Joe > > > > --------------------- > > > > Well, there are no problems. > > > > Other than imaginary ones created by imaginary entities. > > > > Am " I " an imaginary entity? > > > > Not when " I " stands alone. > > > > > > Quit pissing and...... > > > > Check it out! > > > > > > El > > > > > > . > > No problems -- easy to say and talk about -- just like the imaginary > I, which although imaginary, must still defend its viewpoint. > > No problems -- until the cat pisses on the couch again. Or until > traffic is backed up on the 5, until my wife cheats on me -- these > little nondual nuggets of quasi-wisdom only take one so far. > > No problems -- sure > yet problems there are. > > Pissing the night away, > Joe I think, Joe, that you must be referring to instances where Advaita is used as a spiritual " foolosophy " which gets layered over emotional/mental/physical issues to defend against those very issues. For instance, the guy who regularly beats up his wife (or vice versa!) who, instead of attending to his dysfunctional emotional state will say, " Well, everything is happening just as it is meant to--there is no doer " , and will ignore the domestic abuse situation. It's like what Ramakrishna supposedly said, " I instructed my students to give up their attachments, and instead they gave up their common sense. " no pissing or moaning allowed, Freyja ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Nisargadatta , Sandeep Chatterjee <sandeepc@b...> wrote: thanks sandeep, i'm glad you added the blue techno color this time. it makes it easier to follow the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 Hi Sandeep -- I appreciate you taking the time and energy to respond to the fallacies about Advaita presented here, which supposedly attack weakenesses of neo-Advaita, and which were attributed to A C. You adeptly exposed the " straw man " arguments of A C, in which he represents " the position of the other " in a one-sided way, which then allows him to show how useless such a one-sided view is, and how incisive he is. What isn't examined in such a situation is the way the " critiquer " needs the " straw man, " requires the other that he is setting up. He is setting this up to promote his self-image as an incisive thinker/experiencer who can keep things on track, in spite of those others with their heads in the clouds. It's often striking to me when self-promotion of an image is a hidden agenda that comes across clearly to me, yet which " followers " seem to miss. Yet, of course, what happens is that which is to happen, including all kinds of teachers and followers, and all kinds of protestations about the good intentions of teachers to clear up the messes that others are making of the teaching. Of course, of course, Dan Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > Interesting..... > > Some Iraqi dinars in between........... > > - > Hur Guler > Nisargadatta > Wednesday, August 06, 2003 10:15 AM > an article about the dangers of Advaita from > WIE > > > godz_will posted this message at the advaita.org board. i'm serving > it for this group as a lightly battered goffer for the amusement of > nondual cats. > > An excerpt from an article about Advaita from WIE (Andrew Cohen's > magazine). > > While Advaita's profound inspiration and power to liberate is > undeniable, its worldview has not been without its critics. > > ---- > > Advaita has no view, let alone a world-view. > > The absence of the presence of views .........AND......... the > absence of the absence of the presence of views,... > > .....for ease of convention,.... is refered to as the gestalt of > Advaita. > > -------- > > Even > though " modern " Advaita seems to emphasize the indivisible nature of > the world and Brahman, or the Self Absolute, > ---- > > If any consequential positing occurs, ........Advaita is lost. > ----- > > > Advaita philosophy has > traditionally expressed, as noted religious scholar Lance Nelson > points out, a " deep metaphysical bias against the world. . . . In the > end, the Advaita tradition fails to present a true nondualism of > world and Absolute. . . . It is rather an acosmic monism. It achieves > its nonduality not inclusively, but exclusively. Empirical reality is > admitted in a provisional way, but in the end it is cast out of the > Absolute, out of existence. From the highest perspective, the world > is simply not there [emphases ours]. " > > ------- > > Highest or lowest, .....a perspective births the world. > > A negated world is also a perspective. > > -------- > > > > Once again, even though modern > proponents of Advaita do not appear to exclude the world in their > vision of nonduality, in the classical view, the world is clearly > recognized as being either completely unreal, or only partially real. > > -------- > > LOL. > Partially pregnant, eh. > > -------- > > > And this is what Advaita has been historically criticized for. > Precisely because of its emphasis on the ultimate unreality and > illusory nature of the world and embodied existence, any teaching of > how to live in the world is entirely absent. > > > -------- > > A " how " , establishes a religion. > > Advaita is the end of all religion. > > ------- > > > > > More specifically, the > nondual teaching does not in any way address the ethical or moral > dimension of human life. > > ------- > > That which is related to time, i.e. changes with time and thus with > circumstances,.....hooplas of the mind. > > -------- > > > And even though modern Advaita does not seem > to exclude the world in its nondual view, it still is devoid of any > teaching that addresses the realities of human life. > > ---------- > > Any attempt to address anything, including the so called realities of > human life, is to apriori acknowledge and accept the existence of the > issue. > > As the dude in the diaper, muttered, .... " before trying to solve the > problem, should you not find out who has the problem? " > > A grasp of Advaita (to use a phrase), may not save your marriage, may > not make you a better parent to deal with your teenager daughter, may > not make you tons of money. > > Or it may. > > ---------- > > > Interestingly enough, it appears that historically Advaita did not > address ethical or moral questions because, according to Nelson, the > highest nondual teachings were " never intended to be a philosophy for > the general public. " > > --------- > > LOL. > There is no schools of Advaita, there is no thingy called, no centre > of Advaitic authority, which is authorised to deal or address. > > The Hindu will never accept, but....singing farmers, carpenters, > cobblers, householders, ......some five thousand years back > appercieved and were moved to sing, ...........the arising > expressings. > > The songs were carried by one to another. > > It was members of the general public who sang these songs, not > learned Brahmins or theocratic priests. > > Advaita literally means not-Two. > That is all. > Not-Two.............does not posit.............a One or a Self or an > Absolute or a ParamBrahma. > > Not-Two just connotes........Not-two. > > In the apperception of this, .............where is the self left, and > thus where is the " other " left, ......for the self to have ethical or > moral questions to deal with. > > Ethics, morality and thus the " how " ,...........can only exist in the > gestalt of duality. > > The exposure of the very gestalt of duality and not because it is > some esoteric teachings to be whispered in some darkened room, in the > ears of a select few, .........makes Advaita,...what it is. > > ---------- > > In fact, he states that they were " formulated by > and for a narrow spiritual elite of male brahmins [members of the > highest, priestly class], primarily sannyasins [renunciates], who > alone were believed qualified to fully appropriate its import. " > > --------- > > Baloney. > > -------- > > > This > practically would have meant that the individual to whom the absolute > teachings were revealed would have already fulfilled the demanding > moral and ethical qualifications for discipleship. And even more than > that, Shankara himself states that the qualifications for > discipleship also demanded an extraordinary degree of detachment from > and transcendence of worldly desires: > > ---------- > And this same Shankar, when a low caste villager crossed his path, > went back to the river Ganges to have another bath in order to purify > himself and sit in sadhna. > > The Upanshidic sages who sang and expressed Advaita, were > householders, performing all the tasks that a householder's duties > entail, but were so gone from themselves, ........that very few names > remain for attributions. > > The singers of yore truly exampled,.......... > > There is singing but no singer thereof > > There is writing but no author thereof. > > There is speaking, but no speaker thereof > > There is doing, but no doer thereof. > > > Yes, .........apperception of Advaita is rare. > > ----------- > > > The pupil must be dispassionate toward all things noneternal. . . . > [Having] abandoned the desire for sons, wealth and worlds, endowed > with self-control [and] compassion, he is a brahmin who is internally > and externally pure, whose thought is calm, who has reached > tranquility. . . . [Thus] let him go to a spiritual teacher who is > learned in the scriptures and established in Brahman. > > The Upadesasahasri > > The unusual phenomenon occurring in the postmodern spiritual > marketplace is that now, as never before in history, what were once > considered the highest esoteric teachings, revealed only to those who > were prepared and had proven themselves worthy of their unimaginable > depth and subtlety, are available to anyone who wanders into a > spiritual bookstore. > > ---------- > > LOL > That is true. > > But so what? > > When the " original " dudes sang, I am sure the bulk of the audience, > back five thousand years ago, prefered Britteny Spears, or whoever > was topping the charts, back then. > > --------- > > > An important question seems to be: Are most > seekers genuinely prepared for the psychological upheaval and world- > shattering shift of perception that penetration into the Absolute > unleashes? > > --------- > > The upheaval and the shift, happens only through a specific object, > at a specific time, at a specific place, ...............because non- > upheaval, non-shift was not possible to occur through that object, in > that place in that time. > > Whether a paper-back from Amazon.com is the instrument or a sight of > a leaf leaving the sanctuary of it's home and floating in the breeze > in total trust,...is the instrument,.... > > .....to effect that upheaval,...........what difference does it make. > > > ---------- > > Advaita's emphasis on the illusory nature of embodied > existence has the potential to give license to human weakness and > self-indulgence if the individual is not already firmly grounded in a > fundamentally wholesome relationship to life. > > -------------- > > Such a functioning, labeled by some as " human weakness " > or " indulgence " ,.........will not await the blessing of Advaita,...to > indulge, ............if it is to rock. > > ---------- > > > The unwholesome > tendencies characterized by narcissistic, neurotic and deeply cynical > convictions so common today create a dangerously weak foundation for > a nondual perspective that transcends all pairs of opposites, > including right and wrong. > > ---------- > > Part of " the thickening of the plot " . > > ------------- > > > While Advaita's great strength is its > singular, unwavering emphasis on the Absolute dimension of existence, > its weakness is revealed in the limited scope of its singularity. > > ------- > provided an assumption that a scoping is a paramount need, such an > assumption is believed. > > ----- > > And > while any truly absolute view must, by definition, transcend all > distinctions, the inherent potential of Advaita or non dualism to > inspire a worldview that is perilously empty of any value whatsoever > is enormous. > > ----------- > > > It is the very emptiness of the presence of all values,......... > including the value labled Advaita. > > Apperception of Advaita, .............is the end of the relevance of > Advaita. > > ------------- > > > > Indeed, the potential for escape, rather than genuine > transcendence, is great in such an absolute teaching. For to be > embraced, absorbed and utterly consumed by the Absolute is one thing > but to escape from the inherent complexity of life in order to avoid > the overwhelming demand that true surrender requires is another thing > altogether. > > -------------- > > Sure. > > Both being hooplas, ........the inter-alia differential > profoundity,......... is yet another baloney hoopla. > > So whether one takes place or the other,........rock-away-baby. > > Go.... > > Doooooobeeeee Dooooooobeeeee Dooooooo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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