Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 " Mind " (self-consciousness) is only a conceptual entity that the human brain comes up with in an attempt to explain its apparent autonomy. ......an autonony that comes about Because of the mind. There is no " self " to be conscious of. The " I am " is formed in the mind and is the foundation upon which the illusion of separation is built and maintained. The so called mind is designed to work by comparing concepts and can never think outside of its own experience which always is only conceptual and and therefore unreal. It creates and lives is a conceptual dream world.....from which it can never escape. There is no other world. It can never see itself. It can never understand itself...it is not a thing......it is a process......always ahead of itself. It can never become liberated..... It is only a shadow in a shadow cage... Understanding this........ is liberation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds a greater depth of beauty than surrender combined with great insight and understanding. Toby > > toombaru [sMTP:toombaru] > Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:21 AM > Nisargadatta > " Mind " > > " Mind " (self-consciousness) is only a conceptual entity that the human brain comes up with in an attempt to explain its apparent autonomy. > > .....an autonony that comes about Because of the mind. > > There is no " self " to be conscious of. > > The " I am " is formed in the mind and is the foundation upon which the illusion of separation is built and maintained. > > The so called mind is designed to work by comparing concepts and can never think outside of its own experience which always is only conceptual and and therefore unreal. > > It creates and lives is a conceptual dream world.....from which it can never escape. > > There is no other world. > > It can never see itself. > > It can never understand itself...it is not a thing......it is a process......always ahead of itself. > > It can never become liberated..... > > It is only a shadow in a shadow cage... > > > > > > Understanding this........ is liberation. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Regarding: Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds a greater depth of beauty than surrender combined with great insight and understanding. One holds safety, the other holds none. Toby > > toombaru [sMTP:toombaru] > Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:21 AM > Nisargadatta > " Mind " > > " Mind " (self-consciousness) is only a conceptual entity that the human brain comes up with in an attempt to explain its apparent autonomy. > > .....an autonony that comes about Because of the mind. > > There is no " self " to be conscious of. > > The " I am " is formed in the mind and is the foundation upon which the illusion of separation is built and maintained. > > The so called mind is designed to work by comparing concepts and can never think outside of its own experience which always is only conceptual and and therefore unreal. > > It creates and lives is a conceptual dream world.....from which it can never escape. > > There is no other world. > > It can never see itself. > > It can never understand itself...it is not a thing......it is a process......always ahead of itself. > > It can never become liberated..... > > It is only a shadow in a shadow cage... > > > > > > Understanding this........ is liberation. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 << > " Mind " (self-consciousness) is only a conceptual entity that the human brain comes up with in an attempt to explain its apparent autonomy. >> This seems to be an anthropromorphization of the brain. People need to explain things (or people's minds). The brain has no such need. It just " computes " . -Bill Wilson, Toby [toby.wilson] Tuesday, August 19, 2003 6:58 PM Nisargadatta RE: " Mind " Regarding: Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds a greater depth of beauty than surrender combined with great insight and understanding. One holds safety, the other holds none. Toby > > toombaru [sMTP:toombaru] > Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:21 AM > Nisargadatta > " Mind " > > " Mind " (self-consciousness) is only a conceptual entity that the human brain comes up with in an attempt to explain its apparent autonomy. > > .....an autonony that comes about Because of the mind. > > There is no " self " to be conscious of. > > The " I am " is formed in the mind and is the foundation upon which the illusion of separation is built and maintained. > > The so called mind is designed to work by comparing concepts and can never think outside of its own experience which always is only conceptual and and therefore unreal. > > It creates and lives is a conceptual dream world.....from which it can never escape. > > There is no other world. > > It can never see itself. > > It can never understand itself...it is not a thing......it is a process......always ahead of itself. > > It can never become liberated..... > > It is only a shadow in a shadow cage... > > > > > > Understanding this........ is liberation. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Wilson, Toby " <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds a greater depth of beauty than surrender combined with great insight and understanding. > > Toby Ahhhh, a romantic I see. No doubt that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And " Mind " may just be the movement of consciousness depending on your definition which is definately yours to define. Consider the movement of attention. Is there not a desire which moves consciousness and that becomes " attention " ? Can there be attention without desire? Without desire there is no movement and so : no time. There is only " I " . ))))Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Bill Rishel " <plexus@x> wrote: > << > > " Mind " (self-consciousness) is only a conceptual entity that the human > brain comes up with in an attempt to explain its apparent autonomy. > >> > This seems to be an anthropromorphization of the brain. > People need to explain things (or people's minds) > The brain has no such need. It just " computes " . > It is the neurons within the cortex of the human brain that are attempting to understand their own origin. Are you postulating that something outside of the human brain is responsible for the searchers' dilemma? > > > > Wilson, Toby [toby.wilson@t...] > Tuesday, August 19, 2003 6:58 PM > Nisargadatta > RE: " Mind " > > > Regarding: > > Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds a greater depth > of beauty than surrender combined with great insight and understanding. > > One holds safety, the other holds none. > > Toby > > > > > toombaru [sMTP:toombaru] > > Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:21 AM > > Nisargadatta > > " Mind " > > > > " Mind " (self-consciousness) is only a conceptual entity that the human > brain comes up with in an attempt to explain its apparent autonomy. > > > > .....an autonony that comes about Because of the mind. > > > > There is no " self " to be conscious of. > > > > The " I am " is formed in the mind and is the foundation upon which the > illusion of separation is built and maintained. > > > > The so called mind is designed to work by comparing concepts and can never > think outside of its own experience which always is only conceptual and and > therefore unreal. > > > > It creates and lives is a conceptual dream world.....from which it can > never escape. > > > > There is no other world. > > > > It can never see itself. > > > > It can never understand itself...it is not a thing......it is a > process......always ahead of itself. > > > > It can never become liberated..... > > > > It is only a shadow in a shadow cage... > > > > > > > > > > > > Understanding this........ is liberation. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Wilson, Toby " <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > Regarding: > > Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds a greater depth of beauty than surrender combined with great insight and understanding. > > One holds safety, the other holds none. > > Toby > Toby, Who is there to surrender? What is there to surrender? To Whom or what does one surrender to? To whom does the admiration apply? Safety for whom? These terms apply only to the world of opposing opposites which exists only within the conceptual framework. > > > > toombaru [sMTP:toombaru] > > Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:21 AM > > Nisargadatta > > " Mind " > > > > " Mind " (self-consciousness) is only a conceptual entity that the human brain comes up with in an attempt to explain its apparent autonomy. > > > > .....an autonony that comes about Because of the mind. > > > > There is no " self " to be conscious of. > > > > The " I am " is formed in the mind and is the foundation upon which the illusion of separation is built and maintained. > > > > The so called mind is designed to work by comparing concepts and can never think outside of its own experience which always is only conceptual and and therefore unreal. > > > > It creates and lives is a conceptual dream world.....from which it can never escape. > > > > There is no other world. > > > > It can never see itself. > > > > It can never understand itself...it is not a thing......it is a process......always ahead of itself. > > > > It can never become liberated..... > > > > It is only a shadow in a shadow cage... > > > > > > > > > > > > Understanding this........ is liberation. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 It is the neurons within the cortex of the human brain that are attempting to understand their own origin. " toombaru " -- I just tried to upload a picture to " FILES " to go with this. But Hur doesn't have the " UPLOADING " privileges turned on. El .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 An intellectual hypocrisy. > > toombaru [sMTP:toombaru] > Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:50 PM > Nisargadatta > Re: " Mind " > > Nisargadatta , " Wilson, Toby " <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > > Regarding: > > > > Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds a greater depth of beauty than surrender combined with great insight and understanding. > > > > One holds safety, the other holds none. > > > > Toby > > > > > Toby, > > Who is there to surrender? > > What is there to surrender? > > To Whom or what does one surrender to? > > To whom does the admiration apply? > > Safety for whom? > > These terms apply only to the world of opposing opposites which exists only within the conceptual framework. > > > > > > toombaru [sMTP:toombaru] > > > Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:21 AM > > > Nisargadatta > > > " Mind " > > > > > > " Mind " (self-consciousness) is only a conceptual entity that the human brain comes up with in an attempt to explain its apparent autonomy. > > > > > > .....an autonony that comes about Because of the mind. > > > > > > There is no " self " to be conscious of. > > > > > > The " I am " is formed in the mind and is the foundation upon which the illusion of separation is built and maintained. > > > > > > The so called mind is designed to work by comparing concepts and can never think outside of its own experience which always is only conceptual and and therefore unreal. > > > > > > It creates and lives is a conceptual dream world.....from which it can never escape. > > > > > > There is no other world. > > > > > > It can never see itself. > > > > > > It can never understand itself...it is not a thing......it is a process......always ahead of itself. > > > > > > It can never become liberated..... > > > > > > It is only a shadow in a shadow cage... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Understanding this........ is liberation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Toby wrote: > An intellectual hypocrisy. Bingo! Playing word games misses the point *every time*. Your original statement: << Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds a greater depth of beauty than surrender combined with great insight and understanding. >> is very deep. Your clarification: >> One holds safety, the other holds none. was very clear. The response: > Who is there to surrender? is mere prattle. Who sez who sez? Who sez who sez who sez? Such a line of discussion is pointless. I know there are some who say that all utterances are mere prattle, that all is mere bullshit. But that is obviously nonsense. For if it were true, then when one went to the library one would pick a book at random, wouldn't one? Why waste time looking for a *particular* book when all bullshit is created equal? Or is it that some bullshit is more equal that others? -Bill Wilson, Toby [toby.wilson] Wednesday, August 20, 2003 1:31 AM Nisargadatta RE: Re: " Mind " An intellectual hypocrisy. > > toombaru [sMTP:toombaru] > Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:50 PM > Nisargadatta > Re: " Mind " > > Nisargadatta , " Wilson, Toby " <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > > Regarding: > > > > Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds a greater depth of beauty than surrender combined with great insight and understanding. > > > > One holds safety, the other holds none. > > > > Toby > > > > > Toby, > > Who is there to surrender? > > What is there to surrender? > > To Whom or what does one surrender to? > > To whom does the admiration apply? > > Safety for whom? > > These terms apply only to the world of opposing opposites which exists only within the conceptual framework. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 > > > > toombaru [toombaru] > Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:40 PM > Nisargadatta > Re: " Mind " > > > Nisargadatta , " Bill Rishel " <plexus@x> wrote: > > << > > > " Mind " (self-consciousness) is only a conceptual entity that the human > > brain comes up with in an attempt to explain its apparent autonomy. > > >> > > This seems to be an anthropromorphization of the brain. > > People need to explain things (or people's minds) > > The brain has no such need. It just " computes " . > > > > It is the neurons within the cortex of the human brain that > are attempting to understand their own origin. So now you are anthropomorphizing neurons! > Are you postulating that something outside of the human brain > is responsible for the searchers' dilemma? I haven't heard of the " searchers' delemma " , but it seems obviously to be a construct of some kind of cognitive modeling. The human brain doesn't do cognitive modeling, people do. And I am not postulating anything outside of the human brain. In your previous post and this one as well you are making a grammatical error, namely applying the grammar associated with the notion of " mind " to the notion of " brain " . Brain *does not equal* mind. -Bill PS: For a discussion regarding philosophical confusions as being " grammatical " in nature see: http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/at/wittgens.htm An example of a grammatical confusion such as I reference above regarding " brain " and " mind " can be found on the linked page where he discusses " reasons " vs. " causes " . It was Wittgenstein who originated the notion of grammatical confusions as prevalent in philosophical discussions. In so doing he turned Western Philosophy on its head, from which it has never recovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 >> There is only " I " . Is this something you experience or something you infer? -Bill Shawn Hair [shawn] Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:30 PM Nisargadatta Re: " Mind " Nisargadatta , " Wilson, Toby " <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds a greater depth of beauty than surrender combined with great insight and understanding. > > Toby Ahhhh, a romantic I see. No doubt that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And " Mind " may just be the movement of consciousness depending on your definition which is definately yours to define. Consider the movement of attention. Is there not a desire which moves consciousness and that becomes " attention " ? Can there be attention without desire? Without desire there is no movement and so : no time. There is only " I " . ))))Shawn ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Bill Rishel " <plexus@x> wrote: > >> There is only " I " . > Is this something you experience or something you infer? > > -Bill Hi Bill, )))))) Based upon my experience with enquiry this is......... inferred. )))))))) Shawn > > Nisargadatta , " Wilson, Toby " > <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > > Surrender without understanding is more admirable and holds > a greater depth of beauty than surrender combined with great > insight and understanding. > > > > Toby > > > Ahhhh, a romantic I see. > > No doubt that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. > > And " Mind " may just be the movement of consciousness > depending on your definition which is definately yours to define. > > Consider the movement of attention. Is there not a desire which > moves consciousness and that becomes " attention " ? Can there > be attention without desire? > > Without desire there is no movement and so : no time. > > There is only " I " . > > ))))Shawn > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta > group and click on Save Changes. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 Hi Sk, I opened the door of the fridge. I knew exactly what I wanted, but nothing was sorted, or stacked in any order whatsoever. There were half full jars, empty cans, and some containers have been in the fridge for years. Peering inside I saw strange, new life forms staring back at me. I shut the door with a shudder. And a thought crossed my mind, I need to trade fridges with Skogen. Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <sk000005> wrote: > I opened the door of the refrigerator. The light flared a second. I > looked for a long time at the things stacked, piled and sorted in > their respective pockets and stackers. Suddenly, I asked myself, > what am I doing here in the darkness in front of the open > refrigerator? I couldn't remember why I went to the kitchen and why > I opened the refrigerator. 2 years later, one night, I opened again > the door of the fridge and a thought crossed my mind. Suddenly, I > knew what I was looking for 2 years ago. > > > sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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