Guest guest Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 Hi, This is my first post to the list. I'm sure some of the things I'll write here have already been discussed many times, but let's do it one more time. I'm way too confused about what to do, or what not to do, about who I am, or I am not. I understand it is the mind's nature to get confused, and it is useless to be confused about confusion itself. Still I need help. What am I to do with desire? It's a hopeless case really. And even gets more hopeless upon reciting Bhagavad Gita. I think, the knowledge in Gita is not be understood, but to be realized. Thus the importance of devotion and trust. But on a practical level, what do you do when you're, let's say, sexually aroused? I have time and time again felt guilty about fulfilling my sexual desires, knowing there's something not quite right about judging the mind as guilty. I have fought a useless fight with the mind, or so I think, to no avail. I can't find a way to stop myself. This led (my mind) to a huge horror beyond words. As I suppressed my mind, it started to create more and more weird images, and went totally out of control. I used to have images of Krisna appearing in the middle of a sexual intercourse, telling me it's not right to fulfill my desires and I'm living in sin. Further restraint caused even more chaos. How does one think of Krisna during a sexual intercourse? In time, I started to see images of Krisna having sex with me, and I tortured myself beyond words for going through such abusive mental scenarios. Obviously, to think of Krisna, is not to think of his 4 armed *image*, (you can't *think* about him anyway) but when the horror starts, it's not of much help. The torture forces you to stop, and the mind is like a little child who cries in vain, and can't understand why. All it wanted was love. This went to the point, when one day I called for an imaginary court to settle this up. I figured that the reason of all this nightmare was: 1) I was afraid. I don't know what to do with desire. I trust the Gita, but as the child wants the toy, I want to have sex. 2) I was afraid of having humiliated Krisna, when that was not my intention at all. Of course, you can see ignorance all over the place. What a useless torture. But obviously my karma was so shaped, that I had to go through all of this. Life demanded it. The second part is hillarious. How can you humiliate the Absolute Truth? It's beyond logic. The absolute is not a *person*! (And there's no other self to humiliate?) Give it any name you wish: Krisna, The Absolute, Reality, Essence, the Self, the Supreme...anything. It doesn't matter. The thing is, when you dream (or think of) an imaginary Krisna, it is not the real Krisna, not quite in the way we mean at least. A few nights ago I had a dream of Krisna, revealing himself to me. Clouds started to gather in what seemed to be a cloudless sky, and heavenly voices chanted " Hare Krisna " . I saw two giant heads of sisters singing in the sky. I wasn't aware I was dreaming, and suddenly I was in a shock, and I felt I was burning with a fire that was not fire, and my whole body was hot as if I was taking a shower in lava. It felt as if I hit the ground after jumping off a plane without a parachute. I suddenly remembered Nisargadatta telling me I should only think about " I am " . And then I woke up. Thinking back, was that dream of any help? It didn't give a single clue as to what my real identity was. Was that a kundalini experience? It probably was. Should I start to define what a kundalini experience is? Should I believe any books about kundalini? Why should I? I've had numerous similar experiences before. How can anyone else tell me for sure? So what? Everyone says kundalini is dangerous. Is a proper understanding of it possible or necessary? If all knowledge is useless, will it not only add more confusion? What if I blow up to pieces during meditation due to uncontrolled kundalini activity? (Whatever that means) And would I then say " Hey, I'm not the body, no need to worry. It's not me melting, and getting torn to pieces! " As I read and re-read Nisargadatta's sayings, I see it's not getting me anywhere. Am I reading too much? Since anything a guru does is intentional, and not by mere chance (so to speak), I'm wondering why Nisargadatta never mentioned kundalini... (To my knowledge) all he said was that inner energies wake up and work miracles without any interferance on my part. And whatever may happen I should stay with " I am " . I guess that includes the blowing up part. Perhaps it was Nisargadatta's intention not to talk about kundalini, so that people don't make up scenarios and add more confusion to the mind? I know I talk too much, and instead I should take shelter in silence and keep quiet. Now the sexual desire trouble is resolved, but only by allowing my mind to wander off and fulfill its desires as it does. I try not to be affected by it, and try to develop a passionless state. But why should I develop any habit when my intention is to drop all habits? Afterall the natural state is not something imagined. But Gita says blah blah blah... And Nisargadatta says blah blah blah... )) This never ends! LOL! Anyway, if you've managed this far, I'd like to finish this by quoting from Maharaj, even if I'm still confused: " Q: Must I not renounce every thing first, and live a homeless life? M: You cannot renounce. You may leave your home and give trouble to your family, but attachments are in the mind and will not leave you until you know your mind in and out. First thing first - know yourself, all else will come with it. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 Hi Tansel, Reading your story below made me feel tired, almost exhausted. My experience is that no amount of self-manipulation and conflict will bring about peace with oneself. How could it, when the means IS the end! All my best, Michael ______________________ ______________________ Message: 2 Tue, 23 Sep 2003 05:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Tansel Coskuner <just4teof Desire Hi, This is my first post to the list. I'm sure some of the things I'll write here have already been discussed many times, but let's do it one more time. I'm way too confused about what to do, or what not to do, about who I am, or I am not. I understand it is the mind's nature to get confused, and it is useless to be confused about confusion itself. Still I need help. What am I to do with desire? It's a hopeless case really. And even gets more hopeless upon reciting Bhagavad Gita. I think, the knowledge in Gita is not be understood, but to be realized. Thus the importance of devotion and trust. But on a practical level, what do you do when you're, let's say, sexually aroused? I have time and time again felt guilty about fulfilling my sexual desires, knowing there's something not quite right about judging the mind as guilty. I have fought a useless fight with the mind, or so I think, to no avail. I can't find a way to stop myself. This led (my mind) to a huge horror beyond words. As I suppressed my mind, it started to create more and more weird images, and went totally out of control. I used to have images of Krisna appearing in the middle of a sexual intercourse, telling me it's not right to fulfill my desires and I'm living in sin. Further restraint caused even more chaos. How does one think of Krisna during a sexual intercourse? In time, I started to see images of Krisna having sex with me, and I tortured myself beyond words for going through such abusive mental scenarios. Obviously, to think of Krisna, is not to think of his 4 armed *image*, (you can't *think* about him anyway) but when the horror starts, it's not of much help. The torture forces you to stop, and the mind is like a little child who cries in vain, and can't understand why. All it wanted was love. This went to the point, when one day I called for an imaginary court to settle this up. I figured that the reason of all this nightmare was: 1) I was afraid. I don't know what to do with desire. I trust the Gita, but as the child wants the toy, I want to have sex. 2) I was afraid of having humiliated Krisna, when that was not my intention at all. Of course, you can see ignorance all over the place. What a useless torture. But obviously my karma was so shaped, that I had to go through all of this. Life demanded it. The second part is hillarious. How can you humiliate the Absolute Truth? It's beyond logic. The absolute is not a *person*! (And there's no other self to humiliate?) Give it any name you wish: Krisna, The Absolute, Reality, Essence, the Self, the Supreme...anything. It doesn't matter. The thing is, when you dream (or think of) an imaginary Krisna, it is not the real Krisna, not quite in the way we mean at least. A few nights ago I had a dream of Krisna, revealing himself to me. Clouds started to gather in what seemed to be a cloudless sky, and heavenly voices chanted " Hare Krisna " . I saw two giant heads of sisters singing in the sky. I wasn't aware I was dreaming, and suddenly I was in a shock, and I felt I was burning with a fire that was not fire, and my whole body was hot as if I was taking a shower in lava. It felt as if I hit the ground after jumping off a plane without a parachute. I suddenly remembered Nisargadatta telling me I should only think about " I am " . And then I woke up. Thinking back, was that dream of any help? It didn't give a single clue as to what my real identity was. Was that a kundalini experience? It probably was. Should I start to define what a kundalini experience is? Should I believe any books about kundalini? Why should I? I've had numerous similar experiences before. How can anyone else tell me for sure? So what? Everyone says kundalini is dangerous. Is a proper understanding of it possible or necessary? If all knowledge is useless, will it not only add more confusion? What if I blow up to pieces during meditation due to uncontrolled kundalini activity? (Whatever that means) And would I then say " Hey, I'm not the body, no need to worry. It's not me melting, and getting torn to pieces! " As I read and re-read Nisargadatta's sayings, I see it's not getting me anywhere. Am I reading too much? Since anything a guru does is intentional, and not by mere chance (so to speak), I'm wondering why Nisargadatta never mentioned kundalini... (To my knowledge) all he said was that inner energies wake up and work miracles without any interferance on my part. And whatever may happen I should stay with " I am " . I guess that includes the blowing up part. Perhaps it was Nisargadatta's intention not to talk about kundalini, so that people don't make up scenarios and add more confusion to the mind? I know I talk too much, and instead I should take shelter in silence and keep quiet. Now the sexual desire trouble is resolved, but only by allowing my mind to wander off and fulfill its desires as it does. I try not to be affected by it, and try to develop a passionless state. But why should I develop any habit when my intention is to drop all habits? Afterall the natural state is not something imagined. But Gita says blah blah blah... And Nisargadatta says blah blah blah... )) This never ends! LOL! Anyway, if you've managed this far, I'd like to finish this by quoting from Maharaj, even if I'm still confused: " Q: Must I not renounce every thing first, and live a homeless life? M: You cannot renounce. You may leave your home and give trouble to your family, but attachments are in the mind and will not leave you until you know your mind in and out. First thing first - know yourself, all else will come with it. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 Hi Tansel, LOL Some few cents in between.. - Tansel Coskuner Nisargadatta Tuesday, September 23, 2003 05:30 PM Desire Hi,This is my first post to the list. I'm sure some ofthe things I'll write here have already been discussedmany times, but let's do it one more time.I'm way too confused about what to do, or what not todo, about who I am, or I am not. I understand it isthe mind's nature to get confused, and it is uselessto be confused about confusion itself. Still I needhelp.What am I to do with desire? Is there something to be done ? It's a hopeless casereally. And even gets more hopeless upon recitingBhagavad Gita. You mean desires intensify with the recitation? Maybe you belong to the genetical lineage of Duryodhan. I think, the knowledge in Gita is not be understood, but to be realized. Thus the importanceof devotion and trust. But on a practical level, what do you do when you're, let's say, sexually aroused? Is the sexual arousal when BG is recited? During or after? I have time and time again felt guilty about fulfilling my sexual desires, knowing there'ssomething not quite right about judging the mind as guilty. Suggest for your consideration, the judging is the hoopla of the same mind. <SNIP> I figuredthat the reason of all this nightmare was:1) I was afraid. I don't know what to do with desire.I trust the Gita, but as the child wants the toy, Iwant to have sex. Tansel,how old are you? The body is wired for two instincts, one for survival and the other for perpetuation. So all this guilt heaped with the sex instinct, is corrosive. Who ever has told you that sex is something to be guilty about? Are you Indian by birth? For guilt with sex is par of the course for an Indian conditioning. And yet, a billion of them are at it. 2) I was afraid of having humiliated Krisna, when that was not my intention at all. That Kirshna which can be humilated by Tansel, is not worth two Iraqi dinars. Of course, you can see ignorance all over the place.What a useless torture. But obviously my karma was soshaped, that I had to go through all of this. Lifedemanded it. Baloney. <SNIP> As I read and re-readNisargadatta's sayings, I see it's not getting meanywhere. Am I reading too much? Yes. Relax and go find a good woman or man, depending on your preference. Since anything a guru does is intentional, and not bymere chance (so to speak), I'm wondering whyNisargadatta never mentioned kundalini... (To myknowledge) all he said was that inner energies wake upand work miracles without any interferance on my part.And whatever may happen I should stay with "I am". Iguess that includes the blowing up part. Yeah. Getting blown, is ....uh huh, .........Eti,...... Eti, ..yes...yes.......Aaaah. (Eti, Eti opposite of Neti, Neti) Perhaps it was Nisargadatta's intention not to talk about kundalini, so that people don't make up scenarios and add more confusion to the mind?I know I talk too much, and instead I should take shelter in silence and keep quiet. Now the sexual desire trouble is resolved, but only by allowing my mind to wander off and fulfill its desires as it does.I try not to be affected by it, and try to develop apassionless state. What on earth for? But why should I develop any habit when my intention is to drop all habits? Afterall thenatural state is not something imagined. But Gita saysblah blah blah... And Nisargadatta says blah blahblah... )) This never ends! Yes, if blah, blah ends, blah blah blah about blah blah blah, starts. I used to know a guy G.R. Chandran ( a seeker ) who once wrote:> I am a male in my mid 30's, Vegetarian, spiritual of asian Indian> origin. I would like to know if anybody can help me with> sexual healing. I am looking for info or help to devlop control> on my ejaculation. I am looking for spiritual healing methods> either Eastern (Such as Tantra), Yoga or any other western techniques> of sex magick (rituals).>> If anybody has tried any techniques or> can offer any help in controlling my sexual energies, please let me> know.An enlightened Master had this to answer:alrighty G.R. you asked for it pal. here it ...cums step 1: stop touching yourself there bub... how do you want to control yourlibido's appetites if you keep teasing it.step 2: Maybe you should treat yourself to a good ol' cheeseburger (ummmmm)now and again... it might sublimate your manifest desires for ... flesh.step 3: Ever hear of the infamous western method of taking a cold shower?works wonders... also known as the "Shrink-a-dink" technique.If all else fails, wait another 20 years or so... and I'm sure naturaldecay will eradicate the problem... (unless of course you are of the uberman stock, in which case why bother trying to repress ejaculation...hell, go sell that stuff buddy.)As for my personal approach to handling inappropriate "rises" from Mr.Jimmy,I treat 'em as I would a stubborn puppy... scolding: "down boy! down!".good luck, you lusty dog you. Welcome Tansel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 Hi, I didn't mean to exhaust anyone! And if it's of any help let me say that going all through that, I feel relieved. It's over. Once you confront a mental crisis, take full responsibility for it, it disappears and doesn't repeat itself. Being afraid is the nature of the mind, and just remember that fear of being afraid is a vicious circle. Am I still confused? Of course I am! But I'm ignoring it. Whatever the content of the mind, it is unimportant. I mean *everything*. That I know by instinct. If you want some space on your hard drive, it doesn't matter if you erase 40mb of mp3s, or 40mb of jpegs! LOL! Forget I wrote that )) Don't be exhausted please --- Michael Adamson <adamson wrote: > Hi Tansel, > > Reading your story below made me feel tired, > almost exhausted. My > experience is that no amount of self-manipulation > and conflict will bring about > peace with oneself. How could it, when the means IS > the end! > > All my best, > Michael > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 2 > Tue, 23 Sep 2003 05:00:36 -0700 (PDT) > Tansel Coskuner <just4teof > Desire > > Hi, > > This is my first post to the list. I'm sure some of > the things I'll write here have already been > discussed > many times, but let's do it one more time. > > I'm way too confused about what to do, or what not > to > do, about who I am, or I am not. I understand it is > the mind's nature to get confused, and it is useless > to be confused about confusion itself. Still I need > help. > > What am I to do with desire? It's a hopeless case > really. And even gets more hopeless upon reciting > Bhagavad Gita. I think, the knowledge in Gita is not > be understood, but to be realized. Thus the > importance > of devotion and trust. But on a practical level, > what > do you do when you're, let's say, sexually aroused? > > I have time and time again felt guilty about > fulfilling my sexual desires, knowing there's > something not quite right about judging the mind as > guilty. I have fought a useless fight with the mind, > or so I think, to no avail. I can't find a way to > stop > myself. This led (my mind) to a huge horror beyond > words. As I suppressed my mind, it started to create > more and more weird images, and went totally out of > control. I used to have images of Krisna appearing > in > the middle of a sexual intercourse, telling me it's > not right to fulfill my desires and I'm living in > sin. > Further restraint caused even more chaos. How does > one > think of Krisna during a sexual intercourse? In > time, > I started to see images of Krisna having sex with > me, > and I tortured myself beyond words for going through > such abusive mental scenarios. Obviously, to think > of > Krisna, is not to think of his 4 armed *image*, (you > can't *think* about him anyway) but when the horror > starts, it's not of much help. The torture forces > you > to stop, and the mind is like a little child who > cries > in vain, and can't understand why. All it wanted was > love. This went to the point, when one day I called > for an imaginary court to settle this up. I figured > that the reason of all this nightmare was: > > 1) I was afraid. I don't know what to do with > desire. > I trust the Gita, but as the child wants the toy, I > want to have sex. > 2) I was afraid of having humiliated Krisna, when > that > was not my intention at all. > > Of course, you can see ignorance all over the place. > What a useless torture. But obviously my karma was > so > shaped, that I had to go through all of this. Life > demanded it. > > The second part is hillarious. How can you humiliate > the Absolute Truth? It's beyond logic. The absolute > is > not a *person*! (And there's no other self to > humiliate?) Give it any name you wish: Krisna, The > Absolute, Reality, Essence, the Self, the > Supreme...anything. It doesn't matter. The thing is, > when you dream (or think of) an imaginary Krisna, it > is not the real Krisna, not quite in the way we mean > at least. > > A few nights ago I had a dream of Krisna, revealing > himself to me. Clouds started to gather in what > seemed > to be a cloudless sky, and heavenly voices chanted > " Hare Krisna " . I saw two giant heads of sisters > singing in the sky. I wasn't aware I was dreaming, > and > suddenly I was in a shock, and I felt I was burning > with a fire that was not fire, and my whole body was > hot as if I was taking a shower in lava. It felt as > if > I hit the ground after jumping off a plane without a > parachute. I suddenly remembered Nisargadatta > telling > me I should only think about " I am " . And then I woke > up. > > Thinking back, was that dream of any help? It didn't > give a single clue as to what my real identity was. > Was that a kundalini experience? It probably was. > Should I start to define what a kundalini experience > is? Should I believe any books about kundalini? Why > should I? I've had numerous similar experiences > before. How can anyone else tell me for sure? So > what? > Everyone says kundalini is dangerous. Is a proper > understanding of it possible or necessary? If all > knowledge is useless, will it not only add more > confusion? What if I blow up to pieces during > meditation due to uncontrolled kundalini activity? > (Whatever that means) And would I then say " Hey, I'm > not the body, no need to worry. It's not me melting, > and getting torn to pieces! " As I read and re-read > Nisargadatta's sayings, I see it's not getting me > anywhere. Am I reading too much? > > Since anything a guru does is intentional, and not > by > mere chance (so to speak), I'm wondering why > Nisargadatta never mentioned kundalini... (To my > knowledge) all he said was that inner energies wake > up > and work miracles without any interferance on my > part. > And whatever may happen I should stay with " I am " . I > guess that includes the blowing up part. > > Perhaps it was Nisargadatta's intention not to talk > about kundalini, so that people don't make up > scenarios and add more confusion to the mind? > > I know I talk too much, and instead I should take > shelter in silence and keep quiet. Now the sexual > desire trouble is resolved, but only by allowing my > mind to wander off and fulfill its desires as it > does. > I try not to be affected by it, and try to develop a > passionless state. But why should I develop any > habit > when my intention is to drop all habits? Afterall > the > natural state is not something imagined. But Gita > says > blah blah blah... And Nisargadatta says blah blah > blah... )) This never ends! LOL! > > Anyway, if you've managed this far, I'd like to > finish > this by quoting from Maharaj, even if I'm still > confused: > > " Q: Must I not renounce every thing first, and live > a > homeless life? > M: You cannot renounce. You may leave your home and > give trouble to > your family, but attachments are in the mind and > will > not leave you > until you know your mind in and out. First thing > first - know > yourself, all else will come with it. " > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 --- Sandeep Chatterjee <sandeepc wrote: > Hi Tansel, > > LOL > > Some few cents in between.. And some answers from me too: > You mean desires intensify with the recitation? > Maybe you belong to the genetical lineage of > Duryodhan. LOL! No! Desires occur on their own normal schedule. It's not a problem when reading the Gita. (Actually this is no longer a problem at all. It's not happening anymore. Not as it used to be.) When desires occur (whenever that is), I'd suddenly remember a line or two from the Gita, thus force the desire to go down. Eventually that would cause pressure and it would start to manifest itself (as guilt and fear) frequently. > > Is the sexual arousal when BG is recited? > During or after? > No. As I said, I read the Gita often. But sexual desires appear by themselves on very normal, everyday occasions. (not when reciting or after reciting the Gita) But, sometimes they appear after a meditation session too. > > Tansel,how old are you? 28, male. > The body is wired for two instincts, one for > survival and the other for perpetuation. > So all this guilt heaped with the sex instinct, is > corrosive. > Who ever has told you that sex is something to be > guilty about? > Are you Indian by birth? No, by birth I'm Croatian. But I live in Turkey / Istanbul. The guilt for sex thing has its basis elsewhere. I'm gay and I used to hide it intensively. Or should I say " My mind is gay! " LOL! Thanks for the comments! Tansel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 Hi Tansel, - " Tansel Coskuner " <just4teof <Nisargadatta > Tuesday, September 23, 2003 5:00 AM Desire > Hi, snip> > What am I to do with desire? It's a hopeless case > really. And even gets more hopeless upon reciting > Bhagavad Gita. I think, the knowledge in Gita is not > be understood, but to be realized. Thus the importance > of devotion and trust. But on a practical level, what > do you do when you're, let's say, sexually aroused? Jess: enjoy it. > > I have time and time again felt guilty about > fulfilling my sexual desires, knowing there's > something not quite right about judging the mind as > guilty. I have fought a useless fight with the mind, > or so I think, to no avail. I can't find a way to stop > myself. This led (my mind) to a huge horror beyond > words. As I suppressed my mind, it started to create > more and more weird images, and went totally out of > control. I used to have images of Krisna appearing in > the middle of a sexual intercourse, telling me it's > not right to fulfill my desires and I'm living in sin. Jess: that's a b.s. story made up by a mind conditioned thus far for guilt. Further restraint caused even more chaos. How does one > think of Krisna during a sexual intercourse? Jess: why would u want to? take your 'head' off before intercourse. try just 'feeling' and enjoying the sensations of pleasure without judgment. In time, I started to see images of Krisna having sex with me, > and I tortured myself beyond words for going through > such abusive mental scenarios. Jess: don't claim ownership of thoughts,no matter what is floating thru. Obviously, to think of Krisna, is not to think of his 4 armed *image*, (you > can't *think* about him anyway) but when the horror > starts, it's not of much help. The torture forces you > to stop, and the mind is like a little child who cries > in vain, and can't understand why. All it wanted was > love. This went to the point, when one day I called > for an imaginary court to settle this up. I figured > that the reason of all this nightmare was: > > 1) I was afraid. I don't know what to do with desire. > I trust the Gita, but as the child wants the toy, I > want to have sex. Jess: did u ever hear of the concept that it is 'God' that gives you the desire? I once did from a realized Indian. : ) > 2) I was afraid of having humiliated Krisna, when that > was not my intention at all. lol > > Of course, you can see ignorance all over the place. > What a useless torture. But obviously my karma was so > shaped, that I had to go through all of this. Life > demanded it. Jess: the theatre of the mind. your own unique movie. > snip> > Thinking back, was that dream of any help? It didn't > give a single clue as to what my real identity was. > Was that a kundalini experience? It probably was. > Should I start to define what a kundalini experience > is? Should I believe any books about kundalini? Why > should I? I've had numerous similar experiences > before. How can anyone else tell me for sure? So what? > Everyone says kundalini is dangerous. Is a proper > understanding of it possible or necessary? If all > knowledge is useless, will it not only add more > confusion? What if I blow up to pieces during > meditation due to uncontrolled kundalini activity? Jess: You won't blow up. it's your imagination. > (Whatever that means) And would I then say " Hey, I'm > not the body, no need to worry. It's not me melting, > and getting torn to pieces! " As I read and re-read > Nisargadatta's sayings, I see it's not getting me > anywhere. Am I reading too much? Jess: sounds like it. > > Since anything a guru does is intentional, and not by > mere chance (so to speak), I'm wondering why > Nisargadatta never mentioned kundalini... (To my > knowledge) all he said was that inner energies wake up > and work miracles without any interferance on my part. > And whatever may happen I should stay with " I am " . I > guess that includes the blowing up part. Jess: you have a vivid imagination. lol > > Perhaps it was Nisargadatta's intention not to talk > about kundalini, so that people don't make up > scenarios and add more confusion to the mind? Jess: i had kundalini eperiences for 18 years. the key word is experience. it's just another experience and experiences belong to the mind. Nisargadatta was a Jnani and pointed beyond the mind. > > I know I talk too much, and instead I should take > shelter in silence and keep quiet. Now the sexual > desire trouble is resolved, but only by allowing my > mind to wander off and fulfill its desires as it does. Jess: thats not resolution, that's distraction. > I try not to be affected by it, and try to develop a > passionless state. Jess: you could also enjoy. But why should I develop any habit > when my intention is to drop all habits? Jess: what if u just witness that your conditioning is to have certain habits and then do not identify with the conditioning? Afterall the > natural state is not something imagined. But Gita says > blah blah blah... And Nisargadatta says blah blah > blah... )) This never ends! LOL! > > Anyway, if you've managed this far, I'd like to finish > this by quoting from Maharaj, even if I'm still > confused: > > " Q: Must I not renounce every thing first, and live a > homeless life? > M: You cannot renounce. You may leave your home and > give trouble to > your family, but attachments are in the mind and will > not leave you > until you know your mind in and out. First thing > first - know > yourself, all else will come with it. " Jess: having been raised Catholic, told there is nothing uglier than a woman's naked body... being continually shamed sexually by confused and suppressed priests and nuns, who themselves 'strayed',...sexually abused by a Baptist minister uncle,... sexually abused by a 'spiritual' teacher...there was a pandora's box in this mind when it came to sexuality... a great deal of desire, guilt and inner conflict about my 'hot' 'bad' sexual fantasy life. it's all a story about a dream. the mind is the torturer. suppress energy and there arises discomfort, blockage, sickness, whatever...but it's all mind games.... the culprit is the conditioned/robotic/computer like mind. u could try watching and witnessing and feeling all that arises. sexual feelings can be quite wonderful. take the judgement out of it. u won't blow up, but if u do enjoy it. : ) Jess > > > > > > > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2003 Report Share Posted September 28, 2003 Dear Tansel, There is only what is and not what should be. The " what is " is the only holy. If the " should be " is the denial of what is, for exmaple desire, then it is a neurotic action which inhibits learning, growth and wholeness. I would like to add some text from J.Krishnamurti - sheer horror. Werner -------------------- K: I know, I know. In India it is something fantastic, the monks who have come to see me, they are called sannyasis, they have come to see me. They are incredible. I mean, if I can tell you a monk who came to see me some years ago, quite a young man, he left his house and home at the age of 15 to find God. And he had renounced everything. Put on the robe. And as he began to grow older at 18, 19, 20 sexual appetite was something burning. He explained to me how it became intense. He had taken a vow of celibacy, as sannyasis do, monks do. And he said, day after day in my dreams, in my walk, in my going to a house and begging, this thing was becoming so like a fire. You know what he did to control it? A: No, no what did he do? K: He had it operated. A: Oh for heaven's sake. Is that a fact? K: Sir, his urge for God was so - you follow, sir? The idea, the idea, not the reality. A: Not the reality. K: So he came to see me, he had heard several talks which I had given in that place. He came to see me in tears. He said, what have I done? You follow, sir? A: Oh, I'm sure. Yes. K: What have I done to myself? I cannot repair it. I cannot grow a new organ. It is finished. That's the extreme. But all control is in that direction. I don't know if I am? A: Yes, his is terribly dramatic. The one who is sometimes called the first Christian theologian, Origen, castrated himself out of, as I understand it, misunderstanding the words of Jesus, " If your hand offends you cut it off " . K: Sir, authority to me is criminal in this direction. It doesn't matter who says it. A: And like the monk that you just described, Origen came later to repent of this in terms of seeing that it had nothing to do anything. A terrible thing. Was this monk, if I may ask, also saying to you in his tears, that he was absolutely no better off in any way shape or form? K: No, on the contrary, sir, he said, I've committed a sin. I've committed an evil act. A: Yes, yes, of course. K: He realized what he had done. That through that way there is nothing. A: Nothing. K: I've met so many, not such extreme forms of control and denial, but others. They have tortured themselves for an idea. You follow, sir? For a symbol, for a concept. And we have sat with them and discussed with them, and they begin to see what they have to themselves. I met a man who is high up in bureaucracy and one morning he woke up and he said, I'm passing judgment in court over others, punishment, and I seem to say to them I know truth, you don't you are finished. So one morning he woke up and he said, this is all wrong. I must find out what truth is, so he resigned, left and went away for 25 years to find out what truth is. Sir, these people are dreadfully serious, you understand. A: Oh yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 What a remarkable story! Thanks so much for sharing it. Tansel > I would like to add some text from J.Krishnamurti - > sheer horror. > > Werner > > -------------------- > K: I know, I know. In India it is something > fantastic, the monks > who have come to see me, they are called sannyasis, > they have come to > see me. They are incredible. I mean, if I can tell > you a monk who > came to see me some years ago, quite a young man, he > left his house > and home at the age of 15 to find God. And he had > renounced > everything. Put on the robe. And as he began to grow > older at 18, 19, > 20 sexual appetite was something burning. He > explained to me how it > became intense. He had taken a vow of celibacy, as > sannyasis do, > monks do. And he said, day after day in my dreams, > in my walk, in my > going to a house and begging, this thing was > becoming so like a fire. > You know what he did to control it? > A: No, no what did he do? > K: He had it operated. > A: Oh for heaven's sake. Is that a fact? > K: Sir, his urge for God was so - you follow, > sir? The idea, the > idea, not the reality. > A: Not the reality. > K: So he came to see me, he had heard several > talks which I had > given in that place. He came to see me in tears. He > said, what have I > done? You follow, sir? > A: Oh, I'm sure. Yes. > K: What have I done to myself? I cannot repair > it. I cannot grow > a new organ. It is finished. That's the extreme. But > all control is > in that direction. I don't know if I am? > A: Yes, his is terribly dramatic. The one who > is sometimes > called the first Christian theologian, Origen, > castrated himself out > of, as I understand it, misunderstanding the words > of Jesus, " If your > hand offends you cut it off " . > K: Sir, authority to me is criminal in this > direction. It > doesn't matter who says it. > A: And like the monk that you just described, > Origen came later > to repent of this in terms of seeing that it had > nothing to do > anything. A terrible thing. Was this monk, if I may > ask, also saying > to you in his tears, that he was absolutely no > better off in any way > shape or form? > K: No, on the contrary, sir, he said, I've > committed a sin. I've > committed an evil act. > A: Yes, yes, of course. > K: He realized what he had done. That through > that way there is > nothing. > A: Nothing. > K: I've met so many, not such extreme forms of > control and > denial, but others. They have tortured themselves > for an idea. You > follow, sir? For a symbol, for a concept. And we > have sat with them > and discussed with them, and they begin to see what > they have to > themselves. I met a man who is high up in > bureaucracy and one morning > he woke up and he said, I'm passing judgment in > court over others, > punishment, and I seem to say to them I know truth, > you don't you are > finished. So one morning he woke up and he said, > this is all wrong. I > must find out what truth is, so he resigned, left > and went away for > 25 years to find out what truth is. Sir, these > people are dreadfully > serious, you understand. > A: Oh yes. The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 What am I to do with desire? It's a hopeless case > really. And even gets more hopeless upon reciting > Bhagavad Gita. I think, the knowledge in Gita is not > be understood, but to be realized. hi Tansel, way back before spirituality wasn't practiced like today is, they divided the life span into 3 stages of 25 years; first for learning second for household having children working raising a family and the last was designed for meditation introspection contemplation: to live a spiritual life and a sexless life > Thus the importance > of devotion and trust. But on a practical level, what > do you do when you're, let's say, sexually aroused? I think you are in the second faze: to have children and your hormones are at play sex is sacred and looking at it any other way is not good do NOT feel guilty for having stong sex-drive, or survival instinct looking at yourself in " horror " just amplifies horror we are creatures of Light; all of us > I have time and time again felt guilty about > fulfilling my sexual desires, knowing there's > something not quite right about judging the mind as > guilty. I have fought a useless fight with the mind, > or so I think, to no avail. <snip> > I suddenly remembered Nisargadatta telling > me I should only think about " I am " . And then I woke > up. > > First thing > first - know > yourself, all else will come with it. " very wise love, Karta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Hi, Today I found those two texts - nice. They fit to this topic. Werner ----------- All effort at controlling thoughts, appetites and desires cannot but strengthen them along with the ego. Whatever has to go must fall off by itself. All that you are concerned with, all that you are, is the impersonal functioning of understanding. So let that understanding work through witnessing without judgement, knowing that there is nothing else that you can do. Ramesh Balsekar " If you imagine yourself as separate from the world, the world will appear as separate from you and you will experience desire and fear. I do not see the world as separate from me and so there is nothing for me to desire, or fear.. " Nis Maharaj ------------- If you are intersted, here you will find more: Subscribe: ANetofJewels- URL to this page: ANetofJewels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Nisargadatta , Tansel Coskuner <just4teof> wrote: > Hi, > > This is my first post to the list. I'm sure some of > the things I'll write here have already been discussed > many times, but let's do it one more time. > > I'm way too confused about what to do, or what not to > do, about who I am, or I am not. I understand it is > the mind's nature to get confused, and it is useless > to be confused about confusion itself. Still I need > help. > > What am I to do with desire? It's a hopeless case > really. And even gets more hopeless upon reciting > Bhagavad Gita. I think, the knowledge in Gita is not > be understood, but to be realized. Thus the importance > of devotion and trust. But on a practical level, what > do you do when you're, let's say, sexually aroused? > > I have time and time again felt guilty about > fulfilling my sexual desires, knowing there's > something not quite right about judging the mind as > guilty. I have fought a useless fight with the mind, > or so I think, to no avail. I can't find a way to stop > myself. This led (my mind) to a huge horror beyond > words. As I suppressed my mind, it started to create > more and more weird images, and went totally out of > control. I used to have images of Krisna appearing in > the middle of a sexual intercourse, telling me it's > not right to fulfill my desires and I'm living in sin. > Further restraint caused even more chaos. How does one > think of Krisna during a sexual intercourse? In time, > I started to see images of Krisna having sex with me, > and I tortured myself beyond words for going through > such abusive mental scenarios. There is nothing wrong in this kind of thinking I belive because according to Vaishnavism (more according to Krishna sect), Krishna is the only male (Purusha) and all others are females (irrespective of sex) and the relationship is spouse relationship. - this is considered the highest kind of relationship to God according to Vaishnavites. (other relations to God are being a friend, being a son, being father, etc) Obviously, to think of > Krisna, is not to think of his 4 armed *image*, (you > can't *think* about him anyway) but when the horror > starts, it's not of much help. The torture forces you > to stop, and the mind is like a little child who cries > in vain, and can't understand why. All it wanted was > love. This went to the point, when one day I called > for an imaginary court to settle this up. I figured > that the reason of all this nightmare was: > > 1) I was afraid. I don't know what to do with desire. > I trust the Gita, but as the child wants the toy, I > want to have sex. > 2) I was afraid of having humiliated Krisna, when that > was not my intention at all. > > Of course, you can see ignorance all over the place. > What a useless torture. But obviously my karma was so > shaped, that I had to go through all of this. Life > demanded it. > > The second part is hillarious. How can you humiliate > the Absolute Truth? It's beyond logic. The absolute is > not a *person*! (And there's no other self to > humiliate?) Give it any name you wish: Krisna, The > Absolute, Reality, Essence, the Self, the > Supreme...anything. It doesn't matter. The thing is, > when you dream (or think of) an imaginary Krisna, it > is not the real Krisna, not quite in the way we mean > at least. > > A few nights ago I had a dream of Krisna, revealing > himself to me. Clouds started to gather in what seemed > to be a cloudless sky, and heavenly voices chanted > " Hare Krisna " . I saw two giant heads of sisters > singing in the sky. I wasn't aware I was dreaming, and > suddenly I was in a shock, and I felt I was burning > with a fire that was not fire, and my whole body was > hot as if I was taking a shower in lava. It felt as if > I hit the ground after jumping off a plane without a > parachute. I suddenly remembered Nisargadatta telling > me I should only think about " I am " . And then I woke > up. > > Thinking back, was that dream of any help? It didn't > give a single clue as to what my real identity was. > Was that a kundalini experience? It probably was. > Should I start to define what a kundalini experience > is? Should I believe any books about kundalini? Why > should I? I've had numerous similar experiences > before. How can anyone else tell me for sure? So what? > Everyone says kundalini is dangerous. Is a proper > understanding of it possible or necessary? If all > knowledge is useless, will it not only add more > confusion? What if I blow up to pieces during > meditation due to uncontrolled kundalini activity? > (Whatever that means) And would I then say " Hey, I'm > not the body, no need to worry. It's not me melting, > and getting torn to pieces! " As I read and re-read > Nisargadatta's sayings, I see it's not getting me > anywhere. Am I reading too much? > > Since anything a guru does is intentional, and not by > mere chance (so to speak), I'm wondering why > Nisargadatta never mentioned kundalini... (To my > knowledge) all he said was that inner energies wake up > and work miracles without any interferance on my part. > And whatever may happen I should stay with " I am " . I > guess that includes the blowing up part. > > Perhaps it was Nisargadatta's intention not to talk > about kundalini, so that people don't make up > scenarios and add more confusion to the mind? > > I know I talk too much, and instead I should take > shelter in silence and keep quiet. Now the sexual > desire trouble is resolved, but only by allowing my > mind to wander off and fulfill its desires as it does. > I try not to be affected by it, and try to develop a > passionless state. But why should I develop any habit > when my intention is to drop all habits? Afterall the > natural state is not something imagined. But Gita says > blah blah blah... And Nisargadatta says blah blah > blah... )) This never ends! LOL! > > Anyway, if you've managed this far, I'd like to finish > this by quoting from Maharaj, even if I'm still > confused: > > " Q: Must I not renounce every thing first, and live a > homeless life? > M: You cannot renounce. You may leave your home and > give trouble to > your family, but attachments are in the mind and will > not leave you > until you know your mind in and out. First thing > first - know > yourself, all else will come with it. " > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 A supporting example to my statement is many of the romantic songs (srungara keertanas) composed by Annamacharya, a mystic saint of south India. He was a great devotee of Lord Venkateswara of Tirumala and he composed many songs imagining himself as one of the Gopis of Sri Krishna. Nisargadatta , " saikumar_durga " <saikumar_durga> wrote: > Nisargadatta , Tansel Coskuner <just4teof> > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > This is my first post to the list. I'm sure some of > > the things I'll write here have already been discussed > > many times, but let's do it one more time. > > > > I'm way too confused about what to do, or what not to > > do, about who I am, or I am not. I understand it is > > the mind's nature to get confused, and it is useless > > to be confused about confusion itself. Still I need > > help. > > > > What am I to do with desire? It's a hopeless case > > really. And even gets more hopeless upon reciting > > Bhagavad Gita. I think, the knowledge in Gita is not > > be understood, but to be realized. Thus the importance > > of devotion and trust. But on a practical level, what > > do you do when you're, let's say, sexually aroused? > > > > I have time and time again felt guilty about > > fulfilling my sexual desires, knowing there's > > something not quite right about judging the mind as > > guilty. I have fought a useless fight with the mind, > > or so I think, to no avail. I can't find a way to stop > > myself. This led (my mind) to a huge horror beyond > > words. As I suppressed my mind, it started to create > > more and more weird images, and went totally out of > > control. I used to have images of Krisna appearing in > > the middle of a sexual intercourse, telling me it's > > not right to fulfill my desires and I'm living in sin. > > Further restraint caused even more chaos. How does one > > think of Krisna during a sexual intercourse? In time, > > I started to see images of Krisna having sex with me, > > and I tortured myself beyond words for going through > > such abusive mental scenarios. > > > There is nothing wrong in this kind of thinking I belive because > according to Vaishnavism (more according to Krishna sect), Krishna is > the only male (Purusha) and all others are females (irrespective of > sex) and the relationship is spouse relationship. - this is > considered the highest kind of relationship to God according to > Vaishnavites. (other relations to God are being a friend, being a > son, being father, etc) > > > Obviously, to think of > > Krisna, is not to think of his 4 armed *image*, (you > > can't *think* about him anyway) but when the horror > > starts, it's not of much help. The torture forces you > > to stop, and the mind is like a little child who cries > > in vain, and can't understand why. All it wanted was > > love. This went to the point, when one day I called > > for an imaginary court to settle this up. I figured > > that the reason of all this nightmare was: > > > > 1) I was afraid. I don't know what to do with desire. > > I trust the Gita, but as the child wants the toy, I > > want to have sex. > > 2) I was afraid of having humiliated Krisna, when that > > was not my intention at all. > > > > Of course, you can see ignorance all over the place. > > What a useless torture. But obviously my karma was so > > shaped, that I had to go through all of this. Life > > demanded it. > > > > The second part is hillarious. How can you humiliate > > the Absolute Truth? It's beyond logic. The absolute is > > not a *person*! (And there's no other self to > > humiliate?) Give it any name you wish: Krisna, The > > Absolute, Reality, Essence, the Self, the > > Supreme...anything. It doesn't matter. The thing is, > > when you dream (or think of) an imaginary Krisna, it > > is not the real Krisna, not quite in the way we mean > > at least. > > > > A few nights ago I had a dream of Krisna, revealing > > himself to me. Clouds started to gather in what seemed > > to be a cloudless sky, and heavenly voices chanted > > " Hare Krisna " . I saw two giant heads of sisters > > singing in the sky. I wasn't aware I was dreaming, and > > suddenly I was in a shock, and I felt I was burning > > with a fire that was not fire, and my whole body was > > hot as if I was taking a shower in lava. It felt as if > > I hit the ground after jumping off a plane without a > > parachute. I suddenly remembered Nisargadatta telling > > me I should only think about " I am " . And then I woke > > up. > > > > Thinking back, was that dream of any help? It didn't > > give a single clue as to what my real identity was. > > Was that a kundalini experience? It probably was. > > Should I start to define what a kundalini experience > > is? Should I believe any books about kundalini? Why > > should I? I've had numerous similar experiences > > before. How can anyone else tell me for sure? So what? > > Everyone says kundalini is dangerous. Is a proper > > understanding of it possible or necessary? If all > > knowledge is useless, will it not only add more > > confusion? What if I blow up to pieces during > > meditation due to uncontrolled kundalini activity? > > (Whatever that means) And would I then say " Hey, I'm > > not the body, no need to worry. It's not me melting, > > and getting torn to pieces! " As I read and re-read > > Nisargadatta's sayings, I see it's not getting me > > anywhere. Am I reading too much? > > > > Since anything a guru does is intentional, and not by > > mere chance (so to speak), I'm wondering why > > Nisargadatta never mentioned kundalini... (To my > > knowledge) all he said was that inner energies wake up > > and work miracles without any interferance on my part. > > And whatever may happen I should stay with " I am " . I > > guess that includes the blowing up part. > > > > Perhaps it was Nisargadatta's intention not to talk > > about kundalini, so that people don't make up > > scenarios and add more confusion to the mind? > > > > I know I talk too much, and instead I should take > > shelter in silence and keep quiet. Now the sexual > > desire trouble is resolved, but only by allowing my > > mind to wander off and fulfill its desires as it does. > > I try not to be affected by it, and try to develop a > > passionless state. But why should I develop any habit > > when my intention is to drop all habits? Afterall the > > natural state is not something imagined. But Gita says > > blah blah blah... And Nisargadatta says blah blah > > blah... )) This never ends! LOL! > > > > Anyway, if you've managed this far, I'd like to finish > > this by quoting from Maharaj, even if I'm still > > confused: > > > > " Q: Must I not renounce every thing first, and live a > > homeless life? > > M: You cannot renounce. You may leave your home and > > give trouble to > > your family, but attachments are in the mind and will > > not leave you > > until you know your mind in and out. First thing > > first - know > > yourself, all else will come with it. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 Gotoma, Buddha, is reported to have said, if there were another drive as strong as sex I never would have made it. ---- Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Hi, > > Today I found those two texts - nice. They fit to this topic. > > Werner > > ----------- > > All effort at controlling thoughts, appetites and desires cannot but > strengthen them along with the ego. Whatever has to go must fall off > by itself. All that you are concerned with, all that you are, is the > impersonal functioning of understanding. So let that understanding > work through witnessing without judgement, knowing that there is > nothing else that you can do. > > Ramesh Balsekar > > > " If you imagine yourself as separate from the world, the world will > appear as separate from you and you will experience desire and fear. > I do not see the world as separate from me and so there is nothing > for me to desire, or fear.. " > > Nis Maharaj > > ------------- > If you are intersted, here you will find more: > > Subscribe: ANetofJewels- > URL to this page: ANetofJewels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Usually I'm doing fine with my English, but can someone please re-translate that? (In much simpler words:)) Was there nothing more desirable than sex for Buddha? > > Gotoma, Buddha, is reported to have said, > if there were another drive as strong as sex > I never would have made it. The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Accept yourself completely Dont think good or bad Do what you like Everything is good Live for to die Die another day I am always stand behind anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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