Guest guest Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Greetings, My name is Steve Webb and I was happy to find this newsgroup. I have recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji and Ramana at a time when I finally realized the futility of " searching with my intellect " . I am weary from years of religious study and specualtion and all I have to say from my hard work is that the " answers " I seek can not be obtanined intellectualy. In fact, I have found that with enough study almost any of the " literalist religions " can be " proven " false. I am trying to work on non-identification as a start but finding it almost impossible not to get caught up in the moment. I am a father of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby on the way any day (literally!). I have many responsibilities being the sole provider with a work from home business and a wife who is a stay at home, homeschooling mom. So much activity! My question is this: Are there any tips any one can share that are suited to my situation? I have gotten the impression that maybe what I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult being married with children. However, if there are any out there who are in a similar situation I would love to have some pointers on the best way to perform self-inquiry. I have also studied a bit of the 4th way material and did quite a bit of " self observation " only to come to the conclusion that I have a very hard time being able to still my mind and also that I am very identified with my circumstances. In light of these observations, I see that my only " salvation " is to somehow obtain " self realization " and I do thirst for this, only it seems imposible in my current state. Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't see myself waisting any more time cramming my head full of intellectual speculation! Sincerely, Steve Webb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2003 Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 Dear Steve, Let me first start with a question put to Maharaj: ------------ November 9, 1980 Questioner: Should the type of dispassion which Maharaj is teaching us be taught to children? Maharaj: No. If that's done, they'll have no ambition to grow further; they must have certain ambitions, certain desires, for their proper growth. ------------- So, do not expand your spiritual interests and ideas to your kids. But rather see how they manage to get an ego. When you closely watch your young children you will learn without studying any books how they practice to switch between a lot of different identities, roles they are playing, and how they are identifying with thoses roles. You can do this watching for a longer time only when you know that the ego is a good thing - and therefore you won't intefere with their ego's growth. And then you will see for yourself how you are identified with your own roles you are playing, that your personality is just a game you are playing since childhood and that you are still a child which just is playing the adult. Now how to disidentify ? Who is the agent or the entity who could do that job of disidentification ? There is none. There is no doer. There is just the Self which identifies whith it's creation the thoughts and so gives them the neccessary power to find and maintain their place in the world, in society. You can't disidentify, because who is that " you " ? The misunderstanding is that you think that thoughts themeselves are identifying - how could they ? Only the subject can identify and a thougtht which is an object cannot do it. When you see the Self as God, then it is God lending his power to thought through identification. Identification is the power of God given to his creation. So I think it is much better to seek the Self which one already is, than installing some kind of supervisor-ego for spiritual tasks which is just another illusion. All my best wishes to you and your family ... Werner Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> wrote: > Greetings, > My name is Steve Webb and I was happy to find this newsgroup. I have > recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji and Ramana at a > time when I finally realized the futility of " searching with my > intellect " . I am weary from years of religious study and specualtion > and all I have to say from my hard work is that the " answers " I seek > can not be obtanined intellectualy. In fact, I have found that with > enough study almost any of the " literalist religions " can be " proven " > false. > > I am trying to work on non-identification as a start but finding it > almost impossible not to get caught up in the moment. I am a father > of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby on the way any day > (literally!). I have many responsibilities being the sole provider > with a work from home business and a wife who is a stay at home, > homeschooling mom. So much activity! > > My question is this: Are there any tips any one can share that are > suited to my situation? I have gotten the impression that maybe what > I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult being married with > children. However, if there are any out there who are in a similar > situation I would love to have some pointers on the best way to > perform self-inquiry. I have also studied a bit of the 4th way > material and did quite a bit of " self observation " only to come to > the conclusion that I have a very hard time being able to still my > mind and also that I am very identified with my circumstances. In > light of these observations, I see that my only " salvation " is to > somehow obtain " self realization " and I do thirst for this, only it > seems imposible in my current state. > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't see myself > waisting any more time cramming my head full of intellectual > speculation! > > Sincerely, > Steve Webb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2003 Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 Steve, All you need to know is this....... Are you aware that you think ?. Are you aware that you have a body ?. Are you aware that there are trees and other objects in the world ?. Are you aware that you have children ?. The bottom line is this Steve, the only thing that has not changed throughout your life, the only thing you can count on, the only thing that is ever present is your awareness. Your body changes, your thoughts come and go, your emotions are all over the place, but what about your awareness ???.. What does this mean ?. It means you are a field of awareness. Simple, isn't it... So, from now one, just be aware of your awareness, reside in it and stop struggling and you will find life to be a joy. Branwell At 05:43 PM 10/10/2003, you wrote: >Greetings, >My name is Steve Webb and I was happy to find this newsgroup. I have >recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji and Ramana at a >time when I finally realized the futility of " searching with my >intellect " . I am weary from years of religious study and specualtion >and all I have to say from my hard work is that the " answers " I seek >can not be obtanined intellectualy. In fact, I have found that with >enough study almost any of the " literalist religions " can be " proven " >false. > >I am trying to work on non-identification as a start but finding it >almost impossible not to get caught up in the moment. I am a father >of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby on the way any day >(literally!). I have many responsibilities being the sole provider >with a work from home business and a wife who is a stay at home, >homeschooling mom. So much activity! > >My question is this: Are there any tips any one can share that are >suited to my situation? I have gotten the impression that maybe what >I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult being married with >children. However, if there are any out there who are in a similar >situation I would love to have some pointers on the best way to >perform self-inquiry. I have also studied a bit of the 4th way >material and did quite a bit of " self observation " only to come to >the conclusion that I have a very hard time being able to still my >mind and also that I am very identified with my circumstances. In >light of these observations, I see that my only " salvation " is to >somehow obtain " self realization " and I do thirst for this, only it >seems imposible in my current state. > >Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't see myself >waisting any more time cramming my head full of intellectual >speculation! > >Sincerely, >Steve Webb > > > > >** > >If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your >subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > >/mygroups?edit=1 > >Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta >group and click on Save Changes. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Hi Steve, good to hear from you. Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> wrote: > Greetings, > My name is Steve Webb and I was happy to find this newsgroup. I have > recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji and Ramana at a > time when I finally realized the futility of " searching with my > intellect " . I am weary from years of religious study and specualtion > and all I have to say from my hard work is that the " answers " I seek > can not be obtanined intellectualy. In fact, I have found that with > enough study almost any of the " literalist religions " can be " proven " > false. Yes, any thing can be proven false. The literal truth, the written truth is relative truth, a thing, a falsity. What is not relative cannot be written about, described, does not move, is not seperable. > I am trying to work on non-identification as a start but finding it > almost impossible not to get caught up in the moment. I am a father > of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby on the way any day > (literally!). I have many responsibilities being the sole provider > with a work from home business and a wife who is a stay at home, > homeschooling mom. So much activity! Non-identification is not an activity. It is not possible to work on non-identification. Such work is the identification of an identity. > My question is this: Are there any tips any one can share that are > suited to my situation? I have gotten the impression that maybe what > I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult being married with > children. Difficulty can be seen as the spur. > However, if there are any out there who are in a similar > situation I would love to have some pointers on the best way to > perform self-inquiry. The best way is the only way, including the difficult way, the impossible way, and there being no way. > I have also studied a bit of the 4th way > material and did quite a bit of " self observation " only to come to > the conclusion that I have a very hard time being able to still my > mind and also that I am very identified with my circumstances. The mind is always still. Conclusions are when part of the mind is assumed to be my mind. > In > light of these observations, I see that my only " salvation " is to > somehow obtain " self realization " and I do thirst for this, only it > seems imposible in my current state. The impossible is the current state. So impossible that it can only be imagined, imaged, thought up. > Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't see myself > waisting any more time cramming my head full of intellectual > speculation! Good, because notions such as myself, and time, are just intellectual speculations anyway aren't they.... ....Gray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Hi Steve, See what happens when you ask for it. You get rained on. Joining the fun.......<LOL> - yacobyisrael Nisargadatta Saturday, October 11, 2003 03:13 AM My First Post.. and a question Greetings,My name is Steve Webb and I was happy to find this newsgroup. I have recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji and Ramana at a time when I finally realized the futility of "searching with my intellect". I am weary from years of religious study and specualtionand all I have to say from my hard work is that the "answers" I seek can not be obtanined intellectualy. In fact, I have found that with enough study almost any of the "literalist religions" can be "proven" false.I am trying to work on non-identification as a start but finding it almost impossible not to get caught up in the moment. Why on earth should you bother with the non-identification thingy? What do you believe it will get you, if non-identification, suddenly jumped up and bit you on your ass? Non-identification with what and identifying with what? "trying to work on non-identification", ......would it not be an identifiying that there is an identified entity who has to be kicked to Kingdom cum. I am a father of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby on the way any day (literally!). I have many responsibilities being the sole provider with a work from home business and a wife who is a stay at home, homeschooling mom. So much activity! Great. See that activity happens through a father of 3 (one such activity makes it 4), in the moment. Moment to moment to moment. My question is this: Are there any tips any one can share that are suited to my situation? I have gotten the impression that maybe what I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult being married with children. What are you trying to achieve, Steve? What do you believe it will get you? However, if there are any out there who are in a similar situation I would love to have some pointers on the best way to perform self-inquiry. I have also studied a bit of the 4th way material and did quite a bit of "self observation" only to come to the conclusion that I have a very hard time being able to still my mind and also that I am very identified with my circumstances. Trying to still the mind is an oxymoron. When you say "I am very identified with my circumstances",......how have you Steve come to that conclusion? In light of these observations, I see that my only "salvation" is to somehow obtain "self realization" Sure, someone has sold you that lemon. To be sold a lemon, you had to be looking for a lemonade. What are you looking to be salvaged from? Does that have an existential reality? and I do thirst for this, only itseems imposible in my current state. Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't see myself waisting any more time cramming my head full of intellectual speculation! Who is it, Steve that has that problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Perfectly stated. When the mind finally discovers " Hey, I admit it. I have no actual knowledge how these all happened in the first place. I have no additional information gained throughout all these years. I am still as surprised (at what's happening) as ever. " then de-personalization takes place on its own. And it is fearful. All the so called reality collapses. Part of you doesn't want to give up and resists. But WHO is resisting? That which wasn't real, was never real. So there's really nothing to do. > > And then you will see for yourself how you are > identified with your > own roles you are playing, that your personality is > just a game you > are playing since childhood and that you are still a > child which just > is playing the adult. > > Now to you, how to disidentify ? Who is the agent or > the entity who > could do that job of disidentification ? There is > none. There is no > doer. There is just the Self which identifies whith > it's creation the > thoughts and so gives them the neccessary power to > find their place > in the world, in society. You can't disidentify, > because who is > that " you " ? > > I think it is much better to seek the Self which one > alredy is, than > installing some kind of supervisor-ego which is just > another illusion. > > All my best wishes to you and your family ... > > Werner > > > > Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " > <yacobyisrael> wrote: > > Greetings, > > My name is Steve Webb and I was happy to find this > newsgroup. I > have > > recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji > and Ramana at a > > time when I finally realized the futility of > " searching with my > > intellect " . I am weary from years of religious > study and > specualtion > > and all I have to say from my hard work is that > the " answers " I > seek > > can not be obtanined intellectualy. In fact, I > have found that > with > > enough study almost any of the " literalist > religions " can > be " proven " > > false. > > > > I am trying to work on non-identification as a > start but finding it > > almost impossible not to get caught up in the > moment. I am a > father > > of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby > on the way any > day > > (literally!). I have many responsibilities being > the sole provider > > with a work from home business and a wife who is a > stay at home, > > homeschooling mom. So much activity! > > > > My question is this: Are there any tips any one > can share that are > > suited to my situation? I have gotten the > impression that maybe > what > > I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult > being married with > > children. However, if there are any out there who > are in a similar > > situation I would love to have some pointers on > the best way to > > perform self-inquiry. I have also studied a bit of > the 4th way > > material and did quite a bit of " self observation " > only to come to > > the conclusion that I have a very hard time being > able to still my > > mind and also that I am very identified with my > circumstances. In > > light of these observations, I see that my only > " salvation " is to > > somehow obtain " self realization " and I do thirst > for this, only it > > seems imposible in my current state. > > > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't > see myself > > waisting any more time cramming my head full of > intellectual > > speculation! > > > > Sincerely, > > Steve Webb > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Greetings Everyone, It was such a blessing to get all the wonderful responses to my question. Especially during the time of the birth of my fouth child, a Boy (that puts me at a nice even 2 boys and 2 girls)!! I must say that having survived studying and practicing religion (following the Torah to the best of my ability as well as christianity)that these understandings (can I even call them that?) could not have come at a better time. I do want to ask another question: Is meditation important in all of this? If my meditating is part of one of the " roles " I may play out, would not that be part of the mind-trip as well? As Werner so nicely put it: We are role playing since childhood. I can verify this is true. So then that begs the question: If all of these different roles I find myself playing are projections and responses of the mind, how is it possible to answer the question, " WHo am I " accept to answer according to the state of mind or role I happen to be in at the time of asking? Yesturday I found myself answering the question diferently at different times of the day according to situations. " WHo am I? " Daddy Steve... " Who am I? " ... Worker Steve.. etc...From my studies in the Gurdieff work, these observations are recognized as " False Personality " and one is told not to identify with these " I's " . Maybe I have a lot to unlearn!!! Again, thank you all for the insights. It has given me a certain peace coming from the last few years of headache studies that only confirm everything is arbitrary! I look forward to corresponding with those in this wonderful group! Steve and family Nisargadatta , Tansel Coskuner <just4teof> wrote: > Perfectly stated. When the mind finally discovers > " Hey, I admit it. I have no actual knowledge how these > all happened in the first place. I have no additional > information gained throughout all these years. I am > still as surprised (at what's happening) as ever. " > then de-personalization takes place on its own. > > And it is fearful. All the so called reality > collapses. Part of you doesn't want to give up and > resists. > > But WHO is resisting? That which wasn't real, was > never real. So there's really nothing to do. > > > > > And then you will see for yourself how you are > > identified with your > > own roles you are playing, that your personality is > > just a game you > > are playing since childhood and that you are still a > > child which just > > is playing the adult. > > > > Now to you, how to disidentify ? Who is the agent or > > the entity who > > could do that job of disidentification ? There is > > none. There is no > > doer. There is just the Self which identifies whith > > it's creation the > > thoughts and so gives them the neccessary power to > > find their place > > in the world, in society. You can't disidentify, > > because who is > > that " you " ? > > > > I think it is much better to seek the Self which one > > alredy is, than > > installing some kind of supervisor-ego which is just > > another illusion. > > > > All my best wishes to you and your family ... > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " > > <yacobyisrael> wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > My name is Steve Webb and I was happy to find this > > newsgroup. I > > have > > > recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji > > and Ramana at a > > > time when I finally realized the futility of > > " searching with my > > > intellect " . I am weary from years of religious > > study and > > specualtion > > > and all I have to say from my hard work is that > > the " answers " I > > seek > > > can not be obtanined intellectualy. In fact, I > > have found that > > with > > > enough study almost any of the " literalist > > religions " can > > be " proven " > > > false. > > > > > > I am trying to work on non-identification as a > > start but finding it > > > almost impossible not to get caught up in the > > moment. I am a > > father > > > of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby > > on the way any > > day > > > (literally!). I have many responsibilities being > > the sole provider > > > with a work from home business and a wife who is a > > stay at home, > > > homeschooling mom. So much activity! > > > > > > My question is this: Are there any tips any one > > can share that are > > > suited to my situation? I have gotten the > > impression that maybe > > what > > > I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult > > being married with > > > children. However, if there are any out there who > > are in a similar > > > situation I would love to have some pointers on > > the best way to > > > perform self-inquiry. I have also studied a bit of > > the 4th way > > > material and did quite a bit of " self observation " > > only to come to > > > the conclusion that I have a very hard time being > > able to still my > > > mind and also that I am very identified with my > > circumstances. In > > > light of these observations, I see that my only > > " salvation " is to > > > somehow obtain " self realization " and I do thirst > > for this, only it > > > seems imposible in my current state. > > > > > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't > > see myself > > > waisting any more time cramming my head full of > > intellectual > > > speculation! > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > Steve Webb > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Gray, you wrote, in part: > Non-identification is not an activity. It is not possible to work on > non-identification. Such work is the identification of an identity. Yes. Clearly seeing this, is " enough. " Namaste, deep bow, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Dear Steve, If you are interested in Sri Ramana, there is actually a SRi Ramana . My group is also devoted to Sri Ramana. You can read my article, " The Ordinary Mind is the Buddha mind by clicking on the link below. Love to all Harsha " Love itself is the actual form of God. " Ramana Maharshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 - yacobyisrael Nisargadatta Sunday, October 12, 2003 09:12 PM Re: My First Post.. and a question I do want to ask another question: Is meditation important in all of this? Importance, connotes a functional use, is it not? A functional use, connotes a goal to be achieved, is it not? Thus something is important or not, arises from what you desire to achieve. Change the deisre and the useless becomes totally useful, very important. And vice versa. Round and round the mulberry bush. An activity, like any other nuance of functioning, is just that----an activity in the moment. Meditation for................<whatever>,......... is not meditation. An arising meditativeness, can very well occur while changing the diapers of your new born kid. The meditativeness will even get the diaper to hold, when you subsequently lift your kid. If my meditating is part of one of the "roles" I may play out, would not that be part of the mind-trip as well? The belief that the role getting enacted out, in the moment...will get you something, anything,........is the mind-trip. As Werner so nicely put it: We are role playing since childhood. I can verify this is true. So then that begs the question: If all of these different roles I find myself playing are projections and responses of the mind, how is it possible to answer the question, "WHo am I" accept to answer according to the state of mind or role I happen to be in at the time of asking? LOL That is why the answer to that question is that,....... any arising answer, including the famous "I am the eternal Consciousness",..... .....is the hoopla of the conditioned mind. No answer, any answer, ends a question, any question. The end of the question, is only in the end of the relevance of the question. Yesturday I found myself answering the question diferently at different times of the day according to situations. "WHo am I?" Daddy Steve... "Who am I?"... Worker Steve.. etc... See, that each of these answers, actually needs you to be cognizing an "other". Daddy Steve, needs the 4 kids to have any meaning. Worker Steve, needs a work-place, other workers, boss, paycheck, etc,.....to have any meaning. Lover-Steve, needs your spouse/partner. Male-Steve, needs you cognize what is feminity. Even the term "Steve", ...needs the presence of someone who is not named "Steve". Who are you, ...........in the absence of cognition of any "other",......the "other" including the very question. From my studies in the Gurdieff work, these observations are recognized as "False Personality" and one is told not to identify with these "I's". Maybe I have a lot to unlearn!!! How about dropping the whole hoopla of unlearning and learning. Not to identify with the false, is still identifying with an entity which is to drop the false, is it not?<LOL> Have fun. Seriousness, about anything, of anything,.............is a dis-ease, ..........the mother of all diseases. Including the seriousness about,.... not to be serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Dear Steve, Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> wrote: < snip > So then that begs the question: If all of these different roles I find myself playing are projections and responses of the mind, how is it possible to answer the question, " WHo am I " accept to answer according to the state of mind or role I happen to be in at the time of asking? Yesturday I found myself answering the question diferently at different times of the day according to situations. " WHo am I? " Daddy Steve... " Who am I? " ... Worker Steve.. etc...From my studies in the Gurdieff work, these observations are recognized as " False Personality " and one is told not to identify with these " I's " . Maybe I have a lot to unlearn!!! KKT: Since you are familiar with the Gurdjieff work, you know the essential difference between Essence (ie. REAL I) and Personality (ie. ego) I'd like to share with you this interesting paragraph I've found from the book Basic Self-Knowledge Base on the Gurdjieff System of Development With Reference to the Writings of Krishnamurti by Harry Benjamin, p.54: Essence can only grow at THE EXPENSE of personality, so that << IF THERE IS NO PERSONALITY DEVELOPED THERE IS NOT MUCH SCOPE FOR ESSENCE TO DEVELOP EITHER. >> This is a very important point of the teaching to bear in mind. (end quote) I've found this quote very interesting. As for the answer to the question " WHO AM I? " , my answer is very simple: << THE AWARENESS IN THE PRESENT MOMENT >> Regards, KKT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Don't try to answer those questions. Don't look for answers there. Instead of getting lost with them, let them pass. The question " Who am I? " is not answered. It is " realized " . Don't say " I am false identity. What to do now? I am desperate. I don't know myself. " That's also part of the thought that needs to go. Don't cling on thoughts. Just like Nisargadatta says, they are like people you meet on the street. Find your way through the crowd. Not in the crowd. Through. You don't ignore the thoughts by forcing them. Rather by accepting them as what they are. Don't say " No, I mustn't think anything. " Enjoy all. There's a nice book I discovered yesterday. It is titled " Meditation, the first and last freedom " by OSHO (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh) I have read a good deal of it and it's a lovely book. Hope it helps. The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Steve, Good to meet you. What an extraordinary post. My 2 cents is coming...wait for it, wait...... you wrote: >I have > recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji and Ramana at a > time when I finally realized the futility of " searching with my > intellect " . I am weary from years of religious study and specualtion > and all I have to say from my hard work is that the " answers " I seek > can not be obtanined intellectualy. And so you write to us. lol I take it you want something to do. How do the answers come if not intellectually? From experience? Surely you can see that all experience happens in time and so has an ending!? So it is not intellectual and not experience. But the trouble is thoughts( intellectual) and experience (which is psycho-physical- or emotional). What else troubles you besides your thinking and your bodily feelings? The answer lay in Being. What a concept. What is that? you say: > I am trying to work on non-identification as a start but finding it > almost impossible not to get caught up in the moment. I am a father > of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby on the way any day > (literally!). I have many responsibilities being the sole provider > with a work from home business and a wife who is a stay at home, > homeschooling mom. So much activity! > > My question is this: Are there any tips any one can share that are > suited to my situation? I have gotten the impres sion that maybe what > I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult being married with > children. Wecome to the club! You are searching for relief, meaning, a way to be happy all the time, etc. You know in your bones there is some thing missing , something else...ye s ? liste n: " almost impossible not to get caught up in the momen t " ...so you are loosing something by being caught up in t he moment...but you are beginning to see what is happening, y e s ? So the trick is NOT to " un-identify " but only SEE the identificat ion taking place. You can see how difficult this is...BUT you say * almost* impossible not to get caught up in the mo ment. But you are really not getting caught up in the moment, yo u are doing what we all do, getting caught up in being a so a nd so, instead of simply B eing. However, if there are any out there who are in a s imilar > situation I would love to have some pointers on the best way to > perform self-inquiry. I have also studied a bit of the 4 th way > material and did quite a bit of " self observation " only to c ome to > the conclusion that I have a very hard time being able to st ill my > mind and also that I am very identified with my circumst ance s. In > light of these observations, I see that my only " salvation " is to > somehow obtain " self realization " and I do thirst for this, only it > seems imposible in my current st ate. > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't see myself > waisting any more time cramming my head full of intel lectual > spec u l a tion! I am in your boat exactly. lol It is uncanny, truely...it seems we are not only One at the Source but nearly identical at the not-source! Is your wife's name Sarah, by chance? lol I'm kidding ...but truely it is difficult...it is so automatic to be who we have been identified as being..but you understand it well and besides those you have read, I recommend The Power of Now by Eckart Tolle. Other than that, my advise is to relax a little...you have come to the right placeand as often as you can be aware of yourself. When you are awareof yourself, you are aware of the feelings that come up and so they are not you but an object to " you " . You have more " presence " Don't try to fix anything, just be aware, watch with interest...don't even have a goal to figure yourself out, just watch when become aware that you " have ben carried away. " That is the uatomatic identification that is ingrained so deeply but only *almost " impossible to have happen...Let it happen and See it and that SEEING while change your life. Love, Shawn > Sincerely, > Steve Webb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Hi Steve, John de Ruiter once said: " Just because you know who you are, doesn't mean you are being what you know " . The tendency here is to take refuge in the absolute - which i see you are not doing. That in itself is beautiful. It is not the struggle that hurts. But your struggle with the struggle. If there is nothing to be done, and no state for no 'one' to reach, then there is nothing for you to 'do'. Fighting what is hurts. Your external circumstances are perfect. Rather than 'trying to work', enquire, 'who is trying?' 'and who is aware of who is trying?' self enquiry is not about finding an absolute answer, but about living in the question. being the love of this cameron Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> wrote: > Greetings, > My name is Steve Webb and I was happy to find this newsgroup. I have > recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji and Ramana at a > time when I finally realized the futility of " searching with my > intellect " . I am weary from years of religious study and specualtion > and all I have to say from my hard work is that the " answers " I seek > can not be obtanined intellectualy. In fact, I have found that with > enough study almost any of the " literalist religions " can be " proven " > false. > > I am trying to work on non-identification as a start but finding it > almost impossible not to get caught up in the moment. I am a father > of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby on the way any day > (literally!). I have many responsibilities being the sole provider > with a work from home business and a wife who is a stay at home, > homeschooling mom. So much activity! > > My question is this: Are there any tips any one can share that are > suited to my situation? I have gotten the impression that maybe what > I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult being married with > children. However, if there are any out there who are in a similar > situation I would love to have some pointers on the best way to > perform self-inquiry. I have also studied a bit of the 4th way > material and did quite a bit of " self observation " only to come to > the conclusion that I have a very hard time being able to still my > mind and also that I am very identified with my circumstances. In > light of these observations, I see that my only " salvation " is to > somehow obtain " self realization " and I do thirst for this, only it > seems imposible in my current state. > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't see myself > waisting any more time cramming my head full of intellectual > speculation! > > Sincerely, > Steve Webb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Gray, you wrote, in part: > > > Non-identification is not an activity. It is not possible to work > on > > non-identification. Such work is the identification of an identity. > > Yes. > > Clearly seeing this, is " enough. " Ah, you notice I am testing the sea legs here Dan. It's all very well this clearly seeing when enough is enough, but will I clearly see when I have had enough dinner tonight. > > Namaste, deep bow, > Dan How deep to bow in reply... Is this deep enough... Gray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Greetings New Friends, I have been soaking in the words written on this thread and " I " am finding it strange the concept of not " doing " anything. I am so conditioned from studying " spirituality " in the past that this non- action, non-study is 180 degrees of how " I " used to operate. I have a friend visiting that is seriously considering entering a Buddhist monestary in hopes to sort out is mind via the Abidharma. With this quest on his mind, he greatly questioned the concepts put forth to me on this thread as the Abidharma is a deep study requiring a serious commitment and much effort. Now he hears me saying I am giving up study, not bothering to sit in meditation anymore because there is nothing " to do " . At first he thought that this approach is a cop out but as I let him read the concepts put forth on this thread instead of my trying to explain them to him, he definalty sees the value, however alien to " need for hard work and study " ..We have applied the " Who am I " question to his " desire " to re-wire his brain via the Abidharma (and also now my desires not to) and we are finding that, when pondering this line of thinking deeper and deeper, a kind of " short circut " or " bzzzt " kinda shoots through the mind for a split second. All we can say is " wow " to the mind trying to digest these concepts. I have complied all of the responses in this thread on to one page and when I read through them and try to follow the line of " thinking " of not doing anything and the mind " personalities " , etc it ultimately ends up in " bzzzt " ... " Bzzzt " , Steve Nisargadatta , " Shawn Hair " <shawn@w...> wrote: > > Steve, > > Good to meet you. What an extraordinary post. My 2 cents is > coming...wait for it, wait...... > > you wrote: > > >I have > > recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji and > Ramana at a > > time when I finally realized the futility of " searching with my > > intellect " . I am weary from years of religious study and > specualtion > > and all I have to say from my hard work is that the " answers " I > seek > > can not be obtanined intellectualy. > > And so you write to us. lol I take it you want something to do. > > How do the answers come if not intellectually? From > experience? Surely you can see that all experience happens in > time and so has an ending!? So it is not intellectual and not > experience. But the trouble is thoughts( intellectual) and > experience (which is psycho-physical- or emotional). What else > troubles you besides your thinking and your bodily feelings? > > The answer lay in Being. What a concept. What is that? > > you say: > > > I am trying to work on non-identification as a start but finding it > > almost impossible not to get caught up in the moment. I am a > father > > of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby on the way > any day > > (literally!). I have many responsibilities being the sole provider > > with a work from home business and a wife who is a stay at > home, > > homeschooling mom. So much activity! > > > > My question is this: Are there any tips any one can share that > are > > suited to my situation? I have gotten the impres > sion that > maybe what > > > I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult being married with > > > children. > > > Wecome to the club! > > You are searching for relief, meaning, a way to be happy all the > > time, etc. You know in your bones there is some thing missing > , > something else...ye > s > ? > > liste > n: > " almost impossible not to get caught up in the momen > t > " > > ...so you are loosing something by being caught up in t > he > moment...but you are beginning to see what is happening, y > e > s > ? > > > So the trick is NOT to " un-identify " but only SEE the identificat > ion > taking place. You can see how difficult this is...BUT you > say * > almost* impossible not to get caught up in the mo > ment. > But you are really not getting caught up in the moment, yo > u are > doing what we all do, getting caught up in being a so a > nd so, > instead of simply > > B > eing. > > > However, if there are any out there who are in a s > imilar > > situation I would love to have some pointers on the best > way to > > perform self-inquiry. I have also studied a bit of the 4 > th way > > material and did quite a bit of " self observation " only to c > ome to > > the conclusion that I have a very hard time being able to st > ill my > > mind and also that I am very identified with my circumst > ance > s. > In > > light of these observations, I see that my only " salvation > " is to > > somehow obtain " self realization " and I do thirst for this, > only it > > seems imposible in my current > st > ate. > > > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't see > myself > > waisting any more time cramming my head full of intel > lectual > > spec > u > l > a > tion! > > I am in your boat exactly. lol It is uncanny, truely...it seems we are > not only One at the Source but nearly identical at the not-source! > Is your wife's name Sarah, by chance? lol I'm kidding ...but truely > it is difficult...it is so automatic to be who we have been identified > as being..but you understand it well and besides those you have > read, I recommend The Power of Now by Eckart Tolle. > > Other than that, my advise is to relax a little...you have come to > the right placeand as often as you can be aware of yourself. > When you are awareof yourself, you are aware of the feelings > that come up and so they are not you but an object to " you " . You > have more " presence " Don't try to fix anything, just be aware, > watch with interest...don't even have a goal to figure yourself out, > just watch when become aware that you " have ben carried > away. " That is the uatomatic identification that is ingrained so > deeply but only *almost " impossible to have happen...Let it > happen and See it and that SEEING while change your life. > > Love, > > Shawn > > > > > Sincerely, > > Steve Webb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Dear Steve, There is indeed nothing to do, because that what you are seeking you are already. The key simple is " I AM " . As far as I know " Jahve " means " I AM that I AM " - and that is YOU ! It is your own being and therefore there is nothing to do to or to make any efforts for something you are already. You can meditate til the end of your life, 24 hours a day, and all the time you ARE already THAT you are trying to find by meditating, but you can't see it because of the effort of meditation. " Not doing " simply means there is no effort neccessary to be that which you already are. And that which you are is awareness, consciousnes. Maharaj once said: " Thought will go on as long as it will fascinate you " . As long as your daydreams, your ambitions, your hopes, your selfpity, etc., are fascinating, you won't let them go. And the whole spiritual trip in reality is just another fascinating daydream. Werner Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> wrote: > Greetings New Friends, > I have been soaking in the words written on this thread and " I " am > finding it strange the concept of not " doing " anything. I am so > conditioned from studying " spirituality " in the past that this non- > action, non-study is 180 degrees of how " I " used to operate. I have > a friend visiting that is seriously considering entering a Buddhist > monestary in hopes to sort out is mind via the Abidharma. With this > quest on his mind, he greatly questioned the concepts put forth to > me on this thread as the Abidharma is a deep study requiring a > serious commitment and much effort. Now he hears me saying I am > giving up study, not bothering to sit in meditation anymore because > there is nothing " to do " . At first he thought that this approach is > a cop out but as I let him read the concepts put forth on this > thread instead of my trying to explain them to him, he definalty > sees the value, however alien to " need for hard work and study " ..We > have applied the " Who am I " question to his " desire " to re-wire his > brain via the Abidharma (and also now my desires not to) and we are > finding that, when pondering this line of thinking deeper and > deeper, a kind of " short circut " or " bzzzt " kinda shoots through the > mind for a split second. All we can say is " wow " to the mind trying > to digest these concepts. I have complied all of the responses in > this thread on to one page and when I read through them and try to > follow the line of " thinking " of not doing anything and the > mind " personalities " , etc it ultimately ends up in " bzzzt " ... > > " Bzzzt " , > Steve > > > Nisargadatta , " Shawn Hair " <shawn@w...> wrote: > > > > Steve, > > > > Good to meet you. What an extraordinary post. My 2 cents is > > coming...wait for it, wait...... > > > > you wrote: > > > > >I have > > > recently become exposed to the teachings of Papaji and > > Ramana at a > > > time when I finally realized the futility of " searching with my > > > intellect " . I am weary from years of religious study and > > specualtion > > > and all I have to say from my hard work is that the " answers " I > > seek > > > can not be obtanined intellectualy. > > > > And so you write to us. lol I take it you want something to do. > > > > How do the answers come if not intellectually? From > > experience? Surely you can see that all experience happens in > > time and so has an ending!? So it is not intellectual and not > > experience. But the trouble is thoughts( intellectual) and > > experience (which is psycho-physical- or emotional). What else > > troubles you besides your thinking and your bodily feelings? > > > > The answer lay in Being. What a concept. What is that? > > > > you say: > > > > > I am trying to work on non-identification as a start but finding > it > > > almost impossible not to get caught up in the moment. I am a > > father > > > of 3 children under the age of six with a new baby on the way > > any day > > > (literally!). I have many responsibilities being the sole > provider > > > with a work from home business and a wife who is a stay at > > home, > > > homeschooling mom. So much activity! > > > > > > My question is this: Are there any tips any one can share that > > are > > > suited to my situation? I have gotten the impres > > sion that > > maybe what > > > > > I am trying to achieve is very, very difficult being married > with > > > > > children. > > > > > > Wecome to the club! > > > > You are searching for relief, meaning, a way to be happy all the > > > > time, etc. You know in your bones there is some thing missing > > , > > something else...ye > > s > > ? > > > > liste > > n: > > " almost impossible not to get caught up in the momen > > t > > " > > > > ...so you are loosing something by being caught up in t > > he > > moment...but you are beginning to see what is happening, y > > e > > s > > ? > > > > > > So the trick is NOT to " un-identify " but only SEE the identificat > > ion > > taking place. You can see how difficult this is...BUT you > > say * > > almost* impossible not to get caught up in the mo > > ment. > > But you are really not getting caught up in the moment, yo > > u are > > doing what we all do, getting caught up in being a so a > > nd so, > > instead of simply > > > > B > > eing. > > > > > > However, if there are any out there who are in a s > > imilar > > > situation I would love to have some pointers on the best > > way to > > > perform self-inquiry. I have also studied a bit of the 4 > > th way > > > material and did quite a bit of " self observation " only to c > > ome to > > > the conclusion that I have a very hard time being able to st > > ill my > > > mind and also that I am very identified with my circumst > > ance > > s. > > In > > > light of these observations, I see that my only " salvation > > " is to > > > somehow obtain " self realization " and I do thirst for this, > > only it > > > seems imposible in my current > > st > > ate. > > > > > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I can't see > > myself > > > waisting any more time cramming my head full of intel > > lectual > > > spec > > u > > l > > a > > tion! > > > > I am in your boat exactly. lol It is uncanny, truely...it seems we > are > > not only One at the Source but nearly identical at the not-source! > > Is your wife's name Sarah, by chance? lol I'm kidding ...but > truely > > it is difficult...it is so automatic to be who we have been > identified > > as being..but you understand it well and besides those you have > > read, I recommend The Power of Now by Eckart Tolle. > > > > Other than that, my advise is to relax a little...you have come to > > the right placeand as often as you can be aware of yourself. > > When you are awareof yourself, you are aware of the feelings > > that come up and so they are not you but an object to " you " . You > > have more " presence " Don't try to fix anything, just be aware, > > watch with interest...don't even have a goal to figure yourself > out, > > just watch when become aware that you " have ben carried > > away. " That is the uatomatic identification that is ingrained so > > deeply but only *almost " impossible to have happen...Let it > > happen and See it and that SEEING while change your life. > > > > Love, > > > > Shawn > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > Steve Webb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> wrote: > Greetings New Friends, > I have been soaking in the words written on this thread and " I " am > finding it strange the concept of not " doing " anything. I am so > conditioned from studying " spirituality " in the past that this non- > action, non-study is 180 degrees of how " I " used to operate. I have > a friend visiting that is seriously considering entering a Buddhist > monestary in hopes to sort out is mind via the Abidharma. With this > quest on his mind, he greatly questioned the concepts put forth to > me on this thread as the Abidharma is a deep study requiring a > serious commitment and much effort. Now he hears me saying I am > giving up study, not bothering to sit in meditation anymore because > there is nothing " to do " . At first he thought that this approach is > a cop out but as I let him read the concepts put forth on this > thread instead of my trying to explain them to him, he definalty > sees the value, however alien to " need for hard work and study " ..We > have applied the " Who am I " question to his " desire " to re-wire his > brain via the Abidharma (and also now my desires not to) and we are > finding that, when pondering this line of thinking deeper and > deeper, a kind of " short circut " or " bzzzt " kinda shoots through the > mind for a split second. All we can say is " wow " to the mind trying > to digest these concepts. I have complied all of the responses in > this thread on to one page and when I read through them and try to > follow the line of " thinking " of not doing anything and the > mind " personalities " , etc it ultimately ends up in " bzzzt " ... > > " Bzzzt " , > Steve Hi Steve, The " I, " so to speak, is itself " a doing. " It is the " doing " of separating. So, if " I " am here, and because I have read this and that, decide it is best that I do nothing, there is still doing. Often, " inquiry " is discussed as the way that the doing of " I " will be understood for what it is, rather than as an actual established entity that has its own being. Inquiry, in my mind, is the reason for Buddhist meditation and study, although there are certainly other, less formalized ways to inquire. For some, the formality of practice dictated by an authority can cloud the issue of inquiry, make it seem rote or forced into a predetermined pattern -- which is counterproductive. One is always only confronting oneself, whether inquiring in a formal or informal way. Mindfulness, in my mind, is itself a kind of inquiry, not depending on logical analysis through words, but the inquiry, " what is this, here, now " through " attention. " One needn't join a monastery to attend, nor sit in formal meditation -- yet, if that is what one is drawn toward, that may be fine. Once one recognizes that " I " itself is doing, one already has one's head in the tiger's mouth. There is no turning back, if one is clear on this. One has no choice but to inquire, unless one is determined to abnegate responsibility, and if one can do that, one hasn't really been clear that " I " is doing. The end of inquiry is at the root of inquiry. The " answer " is only at the place, or nonplace, from which inquiry arises. Which is not a doing, not a construct, not a location, not an individual, not something other than an individual. So, it is not that one engaged in a practice that led to the result of clarity. It is that one recognized doings for what they are, constructions, and the unconstructed was clear without doing anything about it, for it, or with it, or even existing within it, or to it. Two more cents, heaved into the cyber-void, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 gray452 wrote: > > Namaste, deep bow, > Dan How deep to bow in reply... Is this deep enough... Gray No. The head must touch the floor while knees remain perfectly straight. And all this time, you must be singing that famous hit song by (the Beatles?), "How deep is your love, how deep is your love?" Thank you for asking and glad to help. :-). Love, Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Hi Steve, one cannot deny that doings happen, but who is the orchestrator of these doings? a quote attributed to Buddha, " Deeds are done, there is no individual doer thereof " . seems we get to be the beholder of our seemingly appearing lives, whether that's working hard and raising children, going to a monastery, having kundalini experiences, watching birds at the birfeeder, writing emails to or trying to recover from cancer, etc. etc. Jess - " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael <Nisargadatta > Tuesday, October 14, 2003 6:36 AM Re: My First Post.. and a question > Greetings New Friends, > I have been soaking in the words written on this thread and " I " am > finding it strange the concept of not " doing " anything.... >snip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Hi Jess - But to know there are doings, requires observation of the doings, does it not? And where is the one observing? The observer is always there with the observed, and vice versa, no? The one to whom the life appears, and the appearing life, are one and the same. How can it appear, unless you appear for it to appear to? How can you appear, unless your life appears, so you can appear in relation, as the observer? Our commonsense view is " this must be solidly real because I'm touching things, and I see things happen 'out there'. " But is there any " out there " ? How could I know? And thus, how could any " one " be located in here, in relation to an out there which can't be established? -- Dan Nisargadatta , " Jessica White " <ellam- ondre@c...> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > one cannot deny that doings happen, but who is the orchestrator of these > doings? a quote attributed to Buddha, " Deeds are done, there is no > individual doer thereof " . > > seems we get to be the beholder of our seemingly appearing lives, whether > that's working hard and raising children, going to a monastery, having > kundalini experiences, watching birds at the birfeeder, writing emails to > or trying to recover from cancer, etc. etc. > > Jess > > > > > - > " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> > <Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, October 14, 2003 6:36 AM > Re: My First Post.. and a question > > > > Greetings New Friends, > > I have been soaking in the words written on this thread and " I " am > > finding it strange the concept of not " doing " anything.... > > >snip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Hi Dan, - " dan330033 " <dan330033 <Nisargadatta > Tuesday, October 14, 2003 10:45 AM Re: My First Post.. and a question > Hi Jess - > > But to know there are doings, requires observation of > the doings, does it not? J: yes..the I appears to evolve and realizes 'things'. > > And where is the one observing? J: Gee Dan! reminds me of school! lol! The observer is in the " dream " ...playing the part/parts and for a while appears to be hypnotized/not know that what he/she is observing is an emanation of it's own (non appearing) mind. But then there can also be awareness of the observer observing and experiencing. The observer is always > there with the observed, and vice versa, no? J: i would say that what the observer is observing is emanating from the observer's mind...so yes to your question. > > The one to whom the life appears, and the appearing life, > are one and the same. J: yes > > How can it appear, unless you appear for it to appear to? > > How can you appear, unless your life appears, so you can > appear in relation, as the observer? > > Our commonsense view is " this must be solidly real > because I'm touching things, and I > see things happen 'out there'. " J: Is there something that I said or didn't say that leads u to driving this point Dan? lol. > > But is there any " out there " ? How could I know? J: inny's and outey's. One and the same. > > And thus, how could any " one " be located in here, > in relation to an out there which can't be established? -- Dan > > J: Beats me Over and outey, Jess > > Nisargadatta , " Jessica White " <ellam- > ondre@c...> wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > > > one cannot deny that doings happen, but who is the orchestrator of > these > > doings? a quote attributed to Buddha, " Deeds are done, there is no > > individual doer thereof " . > > > > seems we get to be the beholder of our seemingly appearing lives, > whether > > that's working hard and raising children, going to a monastery, > having > > kundalini experiences, watching birds at the birfeeder, writing > emails to > > or trying to recover from cancer, etc. etc. > > > > Jess > > > > > > > > > > - > > " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> > > <Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, October 14, 2003 6:36 AM > > Re: My First Post.. and a question > > > > > > > Greetings New Friends, > > > I have been soaking in the words written on this thread and " I " am > > > finding it strange the concept of not " doing " anything.... > > > > >snip > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 Hi Jessica -- > > But to know there are doings, requires observation of > > the doings, does it not? > > J: yes..the I appears to evolve and realizes 'things'. And that I would have to be observed, also, to know it appears and evolves and realizes things, no? > > > > And where is the one observing? > > J: Gee Dan! reminds me of school! lol! D: Class dismissed, anyone who just wants to stay and chat is welcome :-) > The observer is in the " dream " ...playing the part/parts and for a while > appears to be hypnotized/not know that what he/she is observing is an > emanation of it's own (non appearing) mind. Wouldn't the idea that there is something outside the dream, that didn't appear in the dream, also be a part of the dream, as a thought occurring to a character in the dream? > But then there can also be > awareness of the observer observing and experiencing. There has to be, or you couldn't refer to the observer. And there has to be an awareness of this awareness of the observer, ad infinitum. So awareness and that of which it is aware come together, arise in relation, are each appearing only through the other appearing, as the relation we call " experience " or " knowing " > The observer is always > > there with the observed, and vice versa, no? > > J: i would say that what the observer is observing is emanating from the > observer's mind...so > yes to your question. Okay. And that mind also is a known requiring a knower, as well? > > The one to whom the life appears, and the appearing life, > > are one and the same. > > J: yes Yes -- and at this point, knowing can only ever be of the construct of the knowing, and the knower can only ever be the necessary aspect of the contruct to be known. Which is the end of having any ongoing picture or sense of self or reality -- yet able to talk, interact, participate in the pictures and sensations we humans call " the world. " It always dissolves as it appears, yet this doesn't prevent or interfere with interactions like these on this list or in " real life " -- they just don't have any place to be kept or to persist ... > > How can it appear, unless you appear for it to appear to? > > > > How can you appear, unless your life appears, so you can > > appear in relation, as the observer? > > > > Our commonsense view is " this must be solidly real > > because I'm touching things, and I > > see things happen 'out there'. " > > J: Is there something that I said or didn't say that leads u to driving this > point Dan? lol. No. It's just fun to find the end of everything right here, right where everything begins. > > But is there any " out there " ? How could I know? > > J: inny's and outey's. One and the same. Yes, I have no inside or outside. Poor me. Where can I ever locate myself? > > And thus, how could any " one " be located in here, > > in relation to an out there which can't be established? > > -- Dan > > > > J: Beats me Me, too. > Over and outey, > Jess Inney and not skinny, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2003 Report Share Posted October 17, 2003 Hey Dan don't mean to be rude or a prude or for that matter crude it's just that to put an answer to what u're asking requires a lot of thinking; makes me dizzy and my head spin intellectual masturbation on advaita has lost it's thrill.... the thrill is gone... the thrill is gone away. Why don't you try twirling like a dervish and see if u can come up with those same questions and comments : ) Spinningly yours, : ) Jessica u'll excuse me. i'm in observance ; ) - " dan330033 " <dan330033 <Nisargadatta > Wednesday, October 15, 2003 11:52 AM Re: My First Post.. and a question > Hi Jessica -- > > > > But to know there are doings, requires observation of > > > the doings, does it not? > > > > J: yes..the I appears to evolve and realizes 'things'. > > And that I would have to be observed, also, to know it > appears and evolves and realizes things, no? > > > > > > > And where is the one observing? > > > > J: Gee Dan! reminds me of school! lol! > > D: Class dismissed, anyone who just wants to stay and > chat is welcome :-) > > > The observer is in the " dream " ...playing the part/parts and for a > while > > appears to be hypnotized/not know that what he/she is observing is > an > > emanation of it's own (non appearing) mind. > > Wouldn't the idea that there is something outside the dream, > that didn't appear in the dream, also be a part of the > dream, as a thought occurring to a character in the dream? > > > But then there can also be > > awareness of the observer observing and experiencing. > > There has to be, or you couldn't refer to the observer. > > And there has to be an awareness of this awareness of the > observer, ad infinitum. > > So awareness and that of which it is aware come together, > arise in relation, are each appearing only through the > other appearing, as the relation we call " experience " > or " knowing " > > > The observer is always > > > there with the observed, and vice versa, no? > > > > J: i would say that what the observer is observing is emanating > from the > > observer's mind...so > > yes to your question. > > Okay. And that mind also is a known requiring a knower, as well? > > > > The one to whom the life appears, and the appearing life, > > > are one and the same. > > > > J: yes > > Yes -- and at this point, knowing can only ever be of > the construct of the knowing, and the knower can only > ever be the necessary aspect of the contruct to be known. > > Which is the end of having any ongoing picture or sense of self or > reality -- yet able to talk, interact, participate in the > pictures and sensations we humans call " the world. " > > It always dissolves as it appears, yet this doesn't prevent or > interfere with interactions like these on this list or > in " real life " -- they just don't have any place to be > kept or to persist ... > > > > How can it appear, unless you appear for it to appear to? > > > > > > How can you appear, unless your life appears, so you can > > > appear in relation, as the observer? > > > > > > Our commonsense view is " this must be solidly real > > > because I'm touching things, and I > > > see things happen 'out there'. " > > > > J: Is there something that I said or didn't say that leads u to > driving this > > point Dan? lol. > > No. It's just fun to find the end of everything right here, > right where everything begins. > > > > But is there any " out there " ? How could I know? > > > > J: inny's and outey's. One and the same. > > Yes, I have no inside or outside. Poor me. Where can I ever > locate myself? > > > > And thus, how could any " one " be located in here, > > > in relation to an out there which can't be established? > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > J: Beats me > > Me, too. > > > Over and outey, > > Jess > > Inney and not skinny, > Dan > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2003 Report Share Posted October 18, 2003 Hi Jessica -- > Hey Dan > don't mean to be rude > or a prude > or for that matter crude > it's just that > to put an answer to > what u're asking > requires a lot of thinking; There's no true thought. The basis for thought, never was, except in another thought, that wasn't. > makes me dizzy and > my head spin > intellectual masturbation on advaita The way to stop masturbating is to stop rubbing oneself. > has lost it's thrill.... > the thrill is gone... > the thrill is gone away. Of course it has, it never was there in the first place. > Why don't you try twirling like a dervish and see if u can come up with > those same questions and comments : ) Without any explanation, there is no thought of why. Whether one is whirling around or lying in the grass, the world spins at its own pace. > Spinningly yours, > : ) Jessica The spin cycle is over when the fat lady sings, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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