The Anti-Guru UG

October 22, 2003

Greetings everybody,

Just a quick note to say I have been pondering all the responses to

my " First post and a question " . Through looking into these ideas

(if you can call them that) I ran across UG Krishnahmurti and for

lack of a better phrase, " got my mind blown " .. The " problem " is what

he/you all are saying seems right but " I " am left with the warning

by UG that one can not follow his line of thinking because it is

secondhand and already invalid. Our searching mind will add these

concepts into the " search " in an effort to perpetuate itself. The

problem seem to be, for me, that UG's concepts/revelations/what-have-

you DO seem to have a loud ring of Truth for me for but UG is adamant

that this is actually poison to me. It is my mind that is pondering

these things UG has put forth but is there any other way for me to

percieve what he is saying? Is it not just the " interloper " who is

reading and comprehending his words? The very interloper who UG is

exposing???? Regardless, " I " - this interloper or whathave you is

attracted to these concepts... UG says this in itself is my doom....

AHHHHHHH!!

Steve

October 22, 2003

Dear Steve,

yacobyisrael <yacobyisrael wrote in part:

The problem seem to be, for me, that UG's concepts/revelations/what-have-you DO seem to have a loud ring of Truth for me for but UG is adamantthat this is actually poison to me.

sk: He is a great guy. So, you have no other alternative than to discard his concepts, revelations, etc... like all the others. Even his too, though they seem to have a ring of Truth. A little Truth is everywhere, isn't it? He is perhaps pointing out that you have to search for your self and not try to be a cheap copy of him or anybody else. And that, is in my opinion, a good concept.

It is my mind that is pondering these things UG has put forth but is there any other way for me to percieve what he is saying? Is it not just the "interloper" who is reading and comprehending his words? The very interloper who UG is exposing???? Regardless, "I" - this interloper or whathave you is attracted to these concepts... UG says this in itself is my doom....

sk: Read him with a smile upon the face. That´s my recomendation. There is always an incredible profound irony and sense of humor to find in the things others expose using his name, sometimes his face and sometimes his voice.

cheers

sk

The New with improved product search

October 22, 2003

Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael "

<yacobyisrael> wrote:

> Greetings everybody,

> Just a quick note to say I have been pondering all the responses to

> my " First post and a question " . Through looking into these ideas

> (if you can call them that) I ran across UG Krishnahmurti and for

> lack of a better phrase, " got my mind blown " .. The " problem " is

what

> he/you all are saying seems right but " I " am left with the warning

> by UG that one can not follow his line of thinking because it is

> secondhand and already invalid. Our searching mind will add these

> concepts into the " search " in an effort to perpetuate itself. The

> problem seem to be, for me, that UG's concepts/revelations/what-

have-

> you DO seem to have a loud ring of Truth for me for but UG is

adamant

> that this is actually poison to me. It is my mind that is

pondering

> these things UG has put forth but is there any other way for me to

> percieve what he is saying? Is it not just the " interloper " who is

> reading and comprehending his words? The very interloper who UG is

> exposing???? Regardless, " I " - this interloper or whathave you is

> attracted to these concepts... UG says this in itself is my doom....

> AHHHHHHH!!

>

> Steve

It may be easy to cling to UG as another guru. And I wouldn't buy

his " shoddy goods " about how you have to physically die to have

this " natural " (non)state that he claims to be in. Notice he'll claim

to be nothing or no one special, yet dramatizes this awakening

process or experience and implies that to function like him you need

also go through it.

His contributions to the automaticity of thought and the paradox of

mind trying to see out of itself are good to look at.

We use the mind to try to get beyond the mind and this insight can be

useful.

Happy reading,

Joe

October 22, 2003

- yacobyisrael

Nisargadatta

Wednesday, October 22, 2003 06:31 PM

The Anti-Guru UG

Greetings everybody,Just a quick note to say I have been pondering all the responses to my "First post and a question". Through looking into these ideas (if you can call them that) I ran across UG Krishnahmurti and for lack of a better phrase, "got my mind blown"..

:-)

What particular UG-stuff impressed you?

The "problem" is what he/you all are saying seems right but "I" am left with the warning by UG that one can not follow his line of thinking because it is secondhand and already invalid.

Our searching mind will add these concepts into the "search" in an effort to perpetuate itself.

Sure.

And there is a wading,....... akin the wading of the salt doll in the sea-waters to find out just what is this thing conceptually referred to,.. as the Ocean.

The problem seem to be, for me, that UG's concepts/revelations/what-have-you DO seem to have a loud ring of Truth for me for but UG is adamantthat this is actually poison to me.

UG's drama, remains dramatic.

As if there is a "me" to get poisoned.

Anybody, including UG, .........saying anything or conveying by any means anything about something, .....to somebody, anywhere, at any time, ever........

.....all that has happened in the moment is a birth of a concept.

The concepts born through the organism labeled UG, is no more or less conceptual,.... than any other concept.

It is my mind that is pondering these things UG has put forth but is there any other way for me to percieve what he is saying?

No.

"Steve" will never apperceive.

No matter whether it came across a UG or not.

Is it not just the "interloper" who isreading and comprehending his words?

Sure.

The very interloper who UG is exposing???? Regardless, "I" - this interloper or whathave you is attracted to these concepts... UG says this in itself is my doom....

So get doomed.

What do you have to lose?:-)

October 22, 2003

Sandeep,

I am reading " Myth of the Mind " and I am having a hard time putting

it down. As " I " am reading and thinking about the concept (or non-

concept) " I " realize that it is just the mind itself, as UG points

out, that is fascinated with even reading the book. Because of

this, it seems, the " information the interloaper gained knowledge

about " from reading the book is now really just a stumbling block

because it was " filtered through the mind and interloper " (if I am

understanding UG correctly). What is more even as I write this post

it seems all I am doing is feeding this interloper/mind thus

perpetuating my imagined search. It seems like I am caught in some

feedback loop.

Steve

-

Nisargadatta , Sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote:

>

> -

> yacobyisrael

> Nisargadatta

> Wednesday, October 22, 2003 06:31 PM

> The Anti-Guru UG

>

> Greetings everybody,

> Just a quick note to say I have been pondering all the responses

to

> my " First post and a question " . Through looking into these ideas

> (if you can call them that) I ran across UG Krishnahmurti and for

> lack of a better phrase, " got my mind blown " ..

>

> :-)

> What particular UG-stuff impressed you?

>

> The " problem " is what

> he/you all are saying seems right but " I " am left with the warning

> by UG that one can not follow his line of thinking because it is

> secondhand and already invalid.

> Our searching mind will add these concepts into the " search " in an

effort to perpetuate itself.

>

> Sure.

>

> And there is a wading,....... akin the wading of the salt doll in

the sea-waters to find out just what is this thing conceptually

referred to,.. as the Ocean.

>

> The

> problem seem to be, for me, that UG's concepts/revelations/what-

have-

> you DO seem to have a loud ring of Truth for me for but UG is

adamant

> that this is actually poison to me.

>

> UG's drama, remains dramatic.

> As if there is a " me " to get poisoned.

>

> Anybody, including UG, .........saying anything or conveying by

any means anything about something, .....to somebody, anywhere, at

any time, ever........

>

> ....all that has happened in the moment is a birth of a concept.

>

> The concepts born through the organism labeled UG, is no more or

less conceptual,.... than any other concept.

>

> It is my mind that is pondering

> these things UG has put forth but is there any other way for me to

> percieve what he is saying?

>

> No.

>

> " Steve " will never apperceive.

> No matter whether it came across a UG or not.

>

> Is it not just the " interloper " who isreading and comprehending

his words?

>

> Sure.

>

> The very interloper who UG is exposing???? Regardless, " I " -

this interloper or whathave you is attracted to these concepts... UG

says this in itself is my doom....

>

> So get doomed.

> What do you have to lose?:-)

October 22, 2003

it's better not to read much. As we know, reading is recommended in

the beginning. But as you progress, it will become difficult to let

go of all that you have read. Reading UG is more dangerous as he

himself says so.

Be careful,

Regards,

Kannan

October 22, 2003

Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote:

> Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael "

> <yacobyisrael> wrote:

> > Greetings everybody,

> > Just a quick note to say I have been pondering all the responses

to

> > my " First post and a question " . Through looking into these ideas

> > (if you can call them that) I ran across UG Krishnahmurti and for

> > lack of a better phrase, " got my mind blown " .. The " problem " is

> what

> > he/you all are saying seems right but " I " am left with the

warning

> > by UG that one can not follow his line of thinking because it is

> > secondhand and already invalid. Our searching mind will add these

> > concepts into the " search " in an effort to perpetuate itself.

The

> > problem seem to be, for me, that UG's concepts/revelations/what-

> have-

> > you DO seem to have a loud ring of Truth for me for but UG is

> adamant

> > that this is actually poison to me. It is my mind that is

> pondering

> > these things UG has put forth but is there any other way for me

to

> > percieve what he is saying? Is it not just the " interloper " who

is

> > reading and comprehending his words? The very interloper who UG

is

> > exposing???? Regardless, " I " - this interloper or whathave you

is

> > attracted to these concepts... UG says this in itself is my

doom....

> > AHHHHHHH!!

> >

> > Steve

>

> It may be easy to cling to UG as another guru. And I wouldn't buy

> his " shoddy goods " about how you have to physically die to have

> this " natural " (non)state that he claims to be in. Notice he'll

claim

> to be nothing or no one special, yet dramatizes this awakening

> process or experience and implies that to function like him you

need

> also go through it.

>

> His contributions to the automaticity of thought and the paradox of

> mind trying to see out of itself are good to look at.

>

> We use the mind to try to get beyond the mind and this insight can

be

> useful.

What I mean is that this is kind of ridiculous -- and in that

understanding that the mind cannot get beyond the mind, some insight

may occur... or not.

Joe

>

> Happy reading,

> Joe

October 22, 2003

Hi Steve,

don't worry. everything is 'on' automatic.

you resonate with UG

i resonate with Robert Adams

Harsha resonates with Ramana

Hur resonates with Nisargadatta

Elizabeth resonates with Nisargadatta and UG

etc, etc, etc,

and so it goes...

'truth' teachings are paradoxical.... they tweak the mind and then it is

seen for what it is...all of the aforementioned point 'beyond' the mind.

i remember when first being introduced to advaita through Robert

Adams....hanging onto every word.....he was 'right'...Balsekar

wasn't...LOL!!! and then the next time I'd hear him, he'd contradict what he

had said previously. he also said, " don't believe a word I've said.

Everything I've told you is a lie. "

It's all really a joke....

a game of ONE...a trickster playing all the parts.

we're on a phenomenal ride going nowhere.

enjoy the show.

an excerpt from the Tao Te Ching

" The Master... helps people lose everything

they know, everything they desire, and creates confusion in those who think

that they know. "

jess

> Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael "

> <yacobyisrael> wrote:

> > Greetings everybody,

> > Just a quick note to say I have been pondering all the responses to

> > my " First post and a question " . Through looking into these ideas

> > (if you can call them that) I ran across UG Krishnahmurti and for

> > lack of a better phrase, " got my mind blown " .. The " problem " is

> what

> > he/you all are saying seems right but " I " am left with the warning

> > by UG that one can not follow his line of thinking because it is

> > secondhand and already invalid. Our searching mind will add these

> > concepts into the " search " in an effort to perpetuate itself. The

> > problem seem to be, for me, that UG's concepts/revelations/what-

> have-

> > you DO seem to have a loud ring of Truth for me for but UG is

> adamant

> > that this is actually poison to me. It is my mind that is

> pondering

> > these things UG has put forth but is there any other way for me to

> > percieve what he is saying? Is it not just the " interloper " who is

> > reading and comprehending his words? The very interloper who UG is

> > exposing???? Regardless, " I " - this interloper or whathave you is

> > attracted to these concepts... UG says this in itself is my doom....

> > AHHHHHHH!!

> >

> > Steve

October 23, 2003

Nisargadatta , " sheevaraam "

<kans_007@h...> wrote:

> it's better not to read much. As we know, reading is

recommended in

> the beginning. But as you progress, it will become difficult to let

> go of all that you have read. Reading UG is more dangerous

as he

> himself says so.

>

> Be careful,

>

> Regards,

> Kannan

-----------------------

Live with your eyes open, that is all.

Don't bullsh**t yourself.

Read or not read, doesn't make any difference.

All I am seeing is myself and the shit in my own head.

In my case Nisargadatta and UG just happen to

reflect the spectrum of extremes in my own head.

What resonates is bullsh**t.

My own.

In print they are one hell of a reality check.

But then so is reading " druge report'.

When I see them rightly, I see nothing.

I see right through.

Which is not to be confused with seeing nothing

when I are out to lunch.

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I could say the same thing for reading anything,

talking to anyone, or looking at anything.

All I see is myself.

El_

..

October 24, 2003

Steve and all..........I am yet another first time poster :-)

I have enjoyed all the posts that I have seen.

Another slant on self enquiry that is fascinating to me can be found at :

www.spiritualpsychotherapy.net

An example below............................

I Am a Realist

In my story there is like and dislike, accept and reject; yes and

no, want and don't want, love and fear, me and not-me, mine and yours. In my

story there is polarity and division. I am married to my story. The Great

Teaching is that I am to love All That Is with all that I am, including my

neighbor and myself. The Great Teaching is that nothing is outside this

awareness, this love, and that everything matters.

But how can I possibly love all that is? In my story it is not

possible. In my story I do not love unconditionally, I do not say yes

unconditionally. In my story there is advantage and disadvantage, there is good

stuff and bad stuff, there is security and insecurity, there is power and

weakness, there is success and failure, there is life and death. In my story I

discriminate, I judge, I divide, I prefer, I assume, I know, I choose. I choose

what is good for me and reject what is bad for me. I choose what is right for me

and reject what is wrong for me. I choose what is secure for me and reject what

is insecure for me. I choose what is comfortable and reject what is

uncomfortable.

I am the manager of reality. I control reality, or at least I try

to. I do not love all that is, with all of my being. I am addicted to what I

believe is good for me. I choose between my good and my bad. I am a chooser, a

discriminator. I love what is good and hate what is evil. I cling to what is

right and resist what is wrong. I cling to what is comfortable and resist what

is uncomfortable. What is good for me is what matters.

I am on guard lest what is bad for me might happen. I am on guard

lest I experience loss, weakness, insignificance, abandonment, loneliness, fear,

guilt, grief, emptiness, disrespect, unappreciation. I am on guard against the

victim experience. I want to be paid for what I do, with either money or

appreciation. I guard against unfairness. I do my share and I expect others to

do theirs. I am a realist.

That is my self-crafted story, my ethics, my religion, my

philosophy. That is who I am. Of course, it doesn't work and I have my suffering

and symptoms, but I really see no reason that it doesn't work, except for God

and other people. Oh yes, the chief fly in the soup is God. God is the architect

of this mess. The way he constructed it did not work, so I made it over. I

constructed a better world in which I live. I made up a better story. So

basically it is God's fault, but god isn't really around and so the chief fault

is my neighbor. I know that 90% of the people say they believe in God, and so do

I. Who would openly oppose the Man Stairs With The Big Stick? And as far as my

neighbor is concerned, my " other " is hell. My " other " is the problem. How can I

think otherwise! My other doesn't understand and doesn't cooperate with my plan

and my choices. My other doesn't do his or her part. I am a realist. .

All the world is queer save me and thee, and sometimes I wonder

about thee.

Anonymous.

Not only is the world a little queer, but it is a little wrong, a

little disappointing, a little malicious, a little selfish, a little

uncooperative, a little back-stabbing, a little domineering, a little

undependable, a little unfair, a little stupid, a little sick, a little crazy.

And sometimes it is not just a " little " . Sometimes it is " much " and sometimes

it is " always " .

That is the story that I live by. Those are the facts. That is the

way it is. How can I love all that is? Only a fool would do that. I cannot

accept people's excuses, rationalizations, lies, and self-deceptions. I'm

nobody's fool! They can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the

people most of the time, but not me. I am worldly wise, I am street wise. I have

been there and done that. I know. I am a realist.

And then something happens. A piece doesn't fit in the puzzle. I

can't get rid of my silly symptom. Even the doctor's medicine doesn't work.

Advice doesn't work. Relationships don't work. Arguing doesn't work and I

realize that even killing wouldn't work. Divorcing doesn't work. Quitting my job

doesn't work. I tell myself that winning the lottery is all that would work.

Then I would be free, then I would be in control, then I would have security.

Then I would have power. People might not love or want me, but they would

respect and desire my money power. I wouldn't have to go to work and kiss ass. I

wouldn't have to put up with my " other's " weird craziness. I could just live on

some island in the Pacific and hire me some dancers and servants and be happy

ever after.

A lot of CEO's had my dream and they had the power and position to

make it happen. Of course, a few got caught and are in jail, but I admire most

of them for their gusto. Don't look at me so funny. Consider the world we live

in. There are so many laws, rules and red tape that a guy can't even make an

honest decent living without fighting city hall. City hall wants 45% of my hard

earned money in taxes. Everyone wants a cut. There are lawyers on every corner

watching you like vultures. They jump on any possible violation that might pay

off. If you have no money, there is no justice. And that is not just my story,

that is fact. I am a realist.

I have heard this all week. These are the stories my clients tell

me. They are hurt and angry. They can justify their pessimism forever. They have

tried being believers, they have tried being nice, they have tried giving and

trusting and going the second mile, and they got shafted. They got used. They

got screwed. They are bankrupt. Even the spouse ran up the credit card and ran

away with some internet screwball. Even the kids took sides against me. The

in-laws didn't like me in the beginning. God and the church don't help either. I

am all alone in my misery. My middle name is Job.

I will go to a counselor, but don't tell me I got it wrong. Don't

tell me what to do. Don't tell me some idealistic poppycock. I am a realist. I

look out for number one. I do what it takes. Anyone over 40 is a cynic anyway.

And I am tired and sick. And even the doctors don't help. What else can a guy do

except be sick in such a sick world with such a sick god running it. To me right

now, it doesn't even look like there is any such god anyway. It all began with

an amobe and a big bang. It is all just chemistry. The only comfort I ever had

became illegal. There was a little taste of peace in my weed, but it was of

course illegalized. You can't win for losing. Playing by the rules doesn't work;

breaking the rules doesn't work. Nothing works.

And so here we are. And you are telling me that you can love All

That Is? That there is a secret knowledge? That unconditional love exists? That

I am infinite? That it all matters? That I am mistaken? That I am unconscious?

That every experience I have is for my self-realization? That my symptoms are my

path to redemption? That victims do not exist? That God lives in every body?

That every single experience has meaning and purpose? That mis-belief and

mis-imagination are my only problems? That I am a dreamer, or rather a

nightmar-er? You have got to be kidding! What planet do you live on! Even if

such a thing were possible, do you thnk I would be so foolish as to listen to

such bullcrap!

Do you think I am going to walk down the primrose path of some newly

self-appointed guru? From what I've heard, all of these gurus are just after sex

and money anyway. Even the churches want your money. The priests act so holy and

they are molesting children. And let's don't even get started talking about the

politicians and their dirty stories of corruption and greed. Nor about Wall

Street and their bookkeeping. And what do you recommend about terrorism, Saudi

Arabia, and the spectre of China?

You tell me to look inside. You tell me that the Kingdom of heaven

is there. Well, who cares about what is inside! 99% of the world is outside and

that is what I have to live with. Surviving is the name of the game. Anyway I'm

sorta sick. I can't fight it anymore. Even my favorite team lost yesterday. And

when I went hunting, it rained and I caught a cold. And on the way home last

night, I hit a deer with my truck. I couldn't legitimately kill one, but I got

one! It is sickening. And you tell me that everything has a spiritual meaning!

What a joke! If my stomach didn't hurt so bad, I would laugh.

So what have you got to offer? You want me to look inside? You say

that the infinite is there. You say that all of this pain is due to my stupid

story. You say that my suffering arises from my illusions? You say that I need

to study daily in order to awaken to reality? Why should I believe you! Go to

hell!

I understand all that you have said, but it simply is not true

outside of the story. We are caught up in our own plot. We are self-hypnotized.

We are self-misled. We are on a self-destruct path. We are our own worst enemy.

What we call reality is an illusion. What we call victimization is just an offer

of Eternal Life. God is nowhere if not inside of you. God is suffering in you

and with you. Your cynicism is always and only about your sense of limitation.

There are no such limits. You made them all up. You invented hell. You trapped

yourself in your seeming logic. There is no such trap. There are no such

" others " that plague you. There are no victims. City hall is just a figment of

your imagination. The terrorists are just scared story-tellers like you and me.

They imagine they will be victimized by us. Didn't you read Shakespeare in high

school about how life's a stage and we are all actors?

Your symptomatic story is designed entirely and completely for your

self-realization. Not one of your experiences is outside of God's unconditional

regard for you. It all matters. But in order for you to fully grasp this fact,

you will need an Interpreter. Fortunately you have one, you have the Teacher of

all Wisdom inside of you. John Bunyan in his classic Pilgrim's Progress called

this teacher by the name of " Interpreter " . Everything has to be re-interpreted,

because you see, we have already mis-interpreted everything.

Goodwill told Pilgrim: you will soon come to the house of a man

named Interpreter.. When Pilgrim reached Interpreter's House, he received a warm

welcome, and was told that he would be shown many profitable things. Interpreter

lit a candle and began to show him how to interpret the strange things he was

experiencing in life. Without Interpreter, we will miss the meaning of our daily

grind.

Interpreter shows us how every single thing matters. Nothing is

outside the venue, purpose, value, truth, and reality of unconditional love.

Every single thing has infinite meaning. Not one thing is outside of God and his

purpose for your self-realization. There is not one wasted word or moment, not

" one jot or tittle. " (Mt 5:18 -For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth

pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be

fulfilled. ) Everything matters. To whom? To whom is a " falling sparrow "

noticed? A woman has many animals and pets, which breaks her bank account, her

health and her marriage, but she will not give them up. This fanatical

unconditionality has meaning.

There is nothing meaningless in this universe. God is meaning. If

you have bought into meaninglessness, you can see that you are not a realist,

and that your story is skewed. Reality is meaning, purpose, significance.

Meaninglessness is the essence of anxiety and depression. Insignificance is the

source of all pain, sickness and symptoms. Insignificance exists only in our

self-manufactured story.

Identity Theft

Recently ABC reported 30,000 identity thefts. Hackers have beeen

able to get someone's credit report using a social security number and steal

one's life savings without it being known. What does this mean? What does this

represent for us in Infinity Theory? In one sense we have all experienced

identity theft, identity loss, identity confusion. Major industries exist to

insure us against theft and loss. Security systems abound. National security is

our most expensive government expenditure. But what is the identity theft? Where

is this thief? Our true identity is " man hidden in the heart " (1 Peter 3: 4),

and not our every day ego story.

Dr. Seuss wrote a book about the How the Grinch Stole Christmas from

the people in Whoville. Who is the Grinch? The Grinch has been called by many

names including Scrooge, Mr. Hyde, the Devil and other spoilers. But upon deeper

examination, we find the cynical culprit cleverly hidden in our own Shadow. The

question of who is responsible for our cynicism, our doubts, our suffering and

our symptoms-is a critically important theapeutic question. It is a question

that the spiritual psychotherapist has to constantly ask the client as well as

himself. Where does Mr. Grinch live unless it is in our psychic world? How does

one deal with Mr. Grinch? That issue is the entire thrust of this website. Mr.

Grinch thinks that he is Mr. Realist, doesn't he? Is that true? Only you can

answer.

Who stole your identity? Who is the identity thief? What is identity

theft, really? An identity theft is the belief that I am a realist, believe it

or not.

-

yacobyisrael

Nisargadatta

Wednesday, October 22, 2003 2:01 PM