Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> wrote: > Hey Guys, > Here is something that has been dawning on me over the last few days. > If there is no God, no reincarnation, nothing to " do " , no > enlightenment, no good or bad deeds that karmically effect you, > nothing to attain to, etc. What is the point of realizing " I Am " if > you are " I Am " anyway no matter if you " know it " or not? What is the > point?? > > Steve Hi Steve -- Excellent question. Look at all the responses you got! I figure you need one more: There's no such thing as " if. " In your question above you say " if " ... " then " ... So, all that you're doing is speculating along logical lines, assuming a premise and then taking it to conclusions. Truth involves no " if " ... so therefore no concluding " then " ... " If " and " then " is merely how the mind operates. The last thing the mind wants, is to find it has no basis for assuming its own inherent existence or being anywhere, including in or as the " as if " being going by the name of " Steve. " As for what is the point of realizing truth -- It's not something " you " do. Therefore, for " you " there can be no point. And thus is exposed the lie of programs involving meditation, or nonmeditation, or pondering this or that, or chanting this or that, and on and on it goes. The " I " wants a religion to attach to, a program of study, or wants to be berated by a guru who says there is no program to study and no god. But the last thing the " I " wants is aloneness, no other, no program of study, and no guru to attach to who says not to study or not to meditate -- To have neither an affirmation nor a negation, no place to hold onto as home or being -- That is what all the avoidance is about. And avoidance goes by many names: me, my guru, my favorite teaching, my belief, my practice, my relationships, my great experience, on and on. The end of avoidance is the end of " if " and " as if. " Right here, now. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Hi Werner, --- wwoehr <wwoehr wrote: > Hi Dave, > > And who turns attention 360 degrees " way within " ? > The Seeker ? > " No one " ; under desperate conditions when there is no one (or nothing) to turn towards, totally helpless, completely hopeless, attention automatically turns on itself and confronts its own fears and insecurities - what kierkeegard calls " anguish " , but again only when it gets disgusted, fed up with the entire search. ~dave Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch./promos/britneyspears/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Hi Dave, Thanks for your answer. It makes sense and is helpful. Werner Nisargadatta , Dave Sirjue <davesirjue> wrote: > Hi Werner, > > --- wwoehr <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > And who turns attention 360 degrees " way within " ? > > The Seeker ? > > > " No one " ; under desperate conditions when there is no > one (or nothing) to turn towards, totally helpless, > completely hopeless, attention automatically turns on > itself and confronts its own fears and insecurities - > what kierkeegard calls " anguish " , but again only when > it gets disgusted, fed up with the entire search. > > ~dave > > > > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > http://launch./promos/britneyspears/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 Dear Werner, I have a nanny to do that. What would she do if I took over? I do get your point though.. S Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Dear Steve, > > The point is that you should go now and change the diapers of your > youngest. > > Werner > > Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " > <yacobyisrael> wrote: > > Hey Guys, > > Here is something that has been dawning on me over the last few > days. > > If there is no God, no reincarnation, nothing to " do " , no > > enlightenment, no good or bad deeds that karmically effect you, > > nothing to attain to, etc. What is the point of realizing " I Am " if > > you are " I Am " anyway no matter if you " know it " or not? What is > the > > point?? > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > And who turns attention 360 degrees " way within " ? The Seeker ? > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > Attention turns 360 degrees from the " way out " to the " way > > within " , > > > > to..... > > > > > > > > Next episode > > > > ~dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> wrote: > Hey Guys, > Here is something that has been dawning on me over the last few days. > If there is no God, no reincarnation, nothing to " do " , no > enlightenment, no good or bad deeds that karmically effect you, > nothing to attain to, etc. What is the point of realizing " I Am " if > you are " I Am " anyway no matter if you " know it " or not? What is the > point?? > > Steve > Hi Steve, Am enjoying your questions and answers :-) A nanny to change the diapers, lucky you. Nevertheless, you are very busy about the mound of *@#) you are sitting on (heehee): This magnificent butterfly finds a little heap of dirt and sits still on it: but man will never on his heap of mud keep still..... ~Joseph Conrad Well, just for grins, here's another quote out of my bag of trick or treats: If you seek, how is that different from pursuing sound and form? If you don't seek, how are you different from earth, wood, or stone? Seek without seeking. ~Wu-Men blessings, Freyja > > > > Nisargadatta , " wwoehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > And who turns attention 360 degrees " way within " ? The Seeker ? > > > > Werner > > > > > Attention turns 360 degrees from the " way out " to the " way > within " , > > > to..... > > > > > > Next episode > > > ~dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Jessica White " <ellam- ondre@c...> wrote: > whether one is 'realized' or identified with a body/mind, > karma/consequences still play themselves out Steve. shit still happens...and > that's when suffering can come in. it's the nature of this bipolar world. > ups and downs...when the shit ( and enjoyable stuff for that matter) > happens..... will you go up and down with what goes up and down? > > it's only when wisdom/jnana or bhakta/surrendur is truly operating that > there is freedom. just intellectually accepting the below is true won't cut > the mustard. apply it when your house burns down or terrible harm comes to > you or a loved one... then see what your mind does....if it matters. > > jess >>>An excelent posting as to the many discussions of late. Indeed, no matter how much thought, debate of guru's, methods,and such; the only answers, peace, understanding, etc. will come from that Self inside, however it may manifest. john From the " Avadhuta Gita " of Dattatreya 23: There is no coming of bondage and freedom from bondage. There is no coming of union and seperation. There is no coming of reasoning and dispution. Why dost thou, who art the identity in all, grieve in thy heart? > > - > " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> > <Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, October 28, 2003 9:13 AM > Fw: Re: Nisargadatta vs. UG - the way within... > > > > Hey Guys, > > Here is something that has been dawning on me over the last few days. > > If there is no God, no reincarnation, nothing to " do " , no > > enlightenment, no good or bad deeds that karmically effect you, > > nothing to attain to, etc. What is the point of realizing " I Am " if > > you are " I Am " anyway no matter if you " know it " or not? What is the > > point?? > > > > Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Greetings Jess< You said: ups and downs...when the shit ( and enjoyable stuff for that matter)happens..... will you go up and down with what goes up and down? it's only when wisdom/jnana or bhakta/surrendur is truly operating that there is freedom. just intellectually accepting the below is true won't cut the mustard. apply it when your house burns down or terrible harm comes to you or a loved one... then see what your mind does....if it matters. Steve: Is this the gauge of whether one is " realized " , to be uneffected by tragedy (or even blessing)? Also, if there is no afterlife or reincarnation as certain Avdaita " Gurus " (or non-gurus) say, is this detachment just to have a higher quality existence while we live out our life?? Also, if one is not attached, will there be any other consequences than just having a roller coaster life while here on planet earth? I wish I had answers instead of so many questions!! Thanks everybody for taking the time with me. It means a great deal to me. Steve Nisargadatta , " John Cox " <jcoxco> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Jessica White " <ellam- > ondre@c...> wrote: > > whether one is 'realized' or identified with a body/mind, > > karma/consequences still play themselves out Steve. shit still > happens...and > > that's when suffering can come in. it's the nature of this bipolar > world. > > ups and downs...when the shit ( and enjoyable stuff for that matter) > > happens..... will you go up and down with what goes up and down? > > > > it's only when wisdom/jnana or bhakta/surrendur is truly operating > that > > there is freedom. just intellectually accepting the below is true > won't cut > > the mustard. apply it when your house burns down or terrible harm > comes to > > you or a loved one... then see what your mind does....if it matters. > > > > jess > >>>An excelent posting as to the many discussions of late. Indeed, > no matter how much thought, debate of guru's, methods,and such; the > only answers, peace, understanding, etc. will come from that Self > inside, however it may manifest. john > > From the " Avadhuta Gita " of Dattatreya > > 23: There is no coming of bondage and freedom from bondage. > There is no coming of union and seperation. > There is no coming of reasoning and dispution. > Why dost thou, who art the identity in all, grieve in thy heart? > > > > > > - > > " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> > > <Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, October 28, 2003 9:13 AM > > Fw: Re: Nisargadatta vs. UG - the way > within... > > > > > > > Hey Guys, > > > Here is something that has been dawning on me over the last few > days. > > > If there is no God, no reincarnation, nothing to " do " , no > > > enlightenment, no good or bad deeds that karmically effect you, > > > nothing to attain to, etc. What is the point of realizing " I Am " > if > > > you are " I Am " anyway no matter if you " know it " or not? What is > the > > > point?? > > > > > > Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Nisargadatta , " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> wrote: > Greetings Jess< > You said: ups and downs...when the shit ( and enjoyable stuff for > that matter)happens..... will you go up and down with what goes up > and down? it's only when wisdom/jnana or bhakta/surrendur is truly > operating that there is freedom. just intellectually accepting the > below is true won't cut the mustard. apply it when your house burns > down or terrible harm comes to you or a loved one... then see what > your mind does....if it matters. > > Steve: Is this the gauge of whether one is " realized " , to be > uneffected by tragedy (or even blessing)? It passes by, Steve, it passes by. Flowers of the field. There is only this moment. Will you see your child laughing up at you? Affected, without defense, moment by moment. There is no more than this. All the seeking, to come back to this. This cry of grief from a friend by phone, this farewell at cemetery to a uniqueness which never will be duplicated. Each moment this, never to be duplicated. Also, if there is no > afterlife or reincarnation as certain Avdaita " Gurus " (or non-gurus) > say, is this detachment just to have a higher quality existence > while we live out our life?? Also, if one is not attached, will > there be any other consequences than just having a roller coaster > life while here on planet earth? > > I wish I had answers instead of so many questions!! Thanks > everybody for taking the time with me. It means a great deal to me. > > Steve > > > Nisargadatta , " John Cox " <jcoxco> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Jessica White " <ellam- > > ondre@c...> wrote: > > > whether one is 'realized' or identified with a body/mind, > > > karma/consequences still play themselves out Steve. shit still > > happens...and > > > that's when suffering can come in. it's the nature of this > bipolar > > world. > > > ups and downs...when the shit ( and enjoyable stuff for that > matter) > > > happens..... will you go up and down with what goes up and down? > > > > > > it's only when wisdom/jnana or bhakta/surrendur is truly > operating > > that > > > there is freedom. just intellectually accepting the below is > true > > won't cut > > > the mustard. apply it when your house burns down or terrible > harm > > comes to > > > you or a loved one... then see what your mind does....if it > matters. > > > > > > jess > > >>>An excelent posting as to the many discussions of late. > Indeed, > > no matter how much thought, debate of guru's, methods,and such; > the > > only answers, peace, understanding, etc. will come from that Self > > inside, however it may manifest. john > > > > From the " Avadhuta Gita " of Dattatreya > > > > 23: There is no coming of bondage and freedom from bondage. > > There is no coming of union and seperation. > > There is no coming of reasoning and dispution. > > Why dost thou, who art the identity in all, grieve in thy > heart? > > > > > > > > > > - > > > " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael> > > > <Nisargadatta > > > > Tuesday, October 28, 2003 9:13 AM > > > Fw: Re: Nisargadatta vs. UG - the way > > within... > > > > > > > > > > Hey Guys, > > > > Here is something that has been dawning on me over the last > few > > days. > > > > If there is no God, no reincarnation, nothing to " do " , no > > > > enlightenment, no good or bad deeds that karmically effect you, > > > > nothing to attain to, etc. What is the point of realizing " I > Am " > > if > > > > you are " I Am " anyway no matter if you " know it " or not? What > is > > the > > > > point?? > > > > > > > > Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Hi Steve, You will find the answers when you turn to the guru inside of yourself. All of this second hand information will not mean anything to you...you have to 'realize' it for yourself. remember, there is no right or wrong way. it's not wrong to meditate or practice Self Inquiry, etc. if one is identified with a body/mind they suffer. it's as simple as that. Ramana said that as long as one believes they are a body, then effort is necessary. if u asked everyone on this list if it was seeking that led them to advaita or non-dual teachings, the answer would be yes. *************************************************** In response to your questions: an excerpt from Robert... " For the Jnani......the existence of his body and the world appears as an illusion, which he cannot remove, but which no longer deceives him. " the afterlife and re-incarnation exists only as long as one is dreaming . everything of this world is of a dream nature. When Buddha was asked who he was, he answered, " I am awake. " Parabhda karma operates even when one is realized, but the one realized is not affected by it, even when the body feels it/suffers...i.e. Nisargadatta had throat cancer, Ramana had cancer, Robert had Parkinson's disease. Jess - " yacobyisrael " <yacobyisrael > Steve: Is this the gauge of whether one is " realized " , to be > uneffected by tragedy (or even blessing)? Also, if there is no afterlife or reincarnation as certain Avdaita " Gurus " (or non-gurus) say, is this detachment just to have a higher quality existence while we live out our life?? Also, if one is not attached, will there be any other consequences than just having a roller coaster life while here on planet earth? I wish I had answers instead of so many questions!! Thanks everybody for taking the time with me. It means a great deal to me. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Jessica White " <ellam- ondre@c...> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > You will find the answers when you turn to the guru inside of yourself. ******* There are no *answers*, and there in no *one* inside of you - that's just your kidding of yourself, if you would care to be honest with yourself? Denial, avoidance of your suffering only. " Realization " is not about the getting of *answers*, but rather the undermining, the understanding,(the calling on the carpet), of the one either looking for or *pretending* answers. In simple terms, get over yourself! Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Nisargadatta , " diana_53231 " <diana@1...> wrote: > > It passes by, Steve, it passes by. Flowers of the field. There is > only this moment. Will you see your child laughing up at you? > > Affected, without defense, moment by moment. > > There is no more than this. > > All the seeking, to come back to this. > > This cry of grief from a friend by phone, this farewell at cemetery > to a uniqueness > which never > will be duplicated. > > Each moment this, never to be duplicated. > > ********* Gag me! :-) Be careful not to trip over yourself there Diana! :-) Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 aw geez Jud...u blew my illusion! all this time with your silence on this list, i thought u might have gone off somewhere and had an epiphany!!! ROFLMAO!!!!! - " judirhodes " <judirhodes <Nisargadatta > Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:09 AM Re: Nisargadatta vs. UG - the way within... > Nisargadatta , " Jessica White " <ellam- > ondre@c...> wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > > > You will find the answers when you turn to the guru inside of > yourself. > > > ******* There are no *answers*, and there in no *one* inside of you - > that's just your kidding of yourself, if you would care to be honest > with yourself? > > Denial, avoidance of your suffering only. > > " Realization " is not about the getting of *answers*, but rather the > undermining, the understanding,(the calling on the carpet), of the > one either looking for or *pretending* answers. > > In simple terms, get over yourself! > > Judi ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Jessica White " <ellam-ondre@c...> wrote: > aw geez Jud...u blew my illusion! all this time with your silence on this > list, i thought u might have gone off somewhere and had an epiphany!!! > > ROFLMAO!!!!! flush .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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