Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I'd like to share with you > a paragraph from > The Sutra of Hui Neng, > the Sixth Patriarch of Ch'an (Zen) > > > Bhikkhu Zhi Huang, a follower of the Dhyana School, after his > consultation with the Fifth Patriarch (as to the progress of his > work) considered himself as having attained Samadhi. For twenty > years he confined himself in a small temple and kept up the position > all the time. > > Xuan Ce, a disciple of the Sixth Patriarch on a meditation journey > to the northern bank of Huang He, heard about him and called at his > temple. > > " What are you doing here? " asked Xuan Ce. > > " I am abiding in Samadhi, " replied his friend, Zhi Huang. > > " Abiding in Samadhi, did you say? " observed Xuan Ce. " I wish to know > whether you are doing it consciously or unconsciously. For if you > are doing it unconsciously, it would mean that it is possible for > all inanimate objects such as earthenware, stones, trees, and weeds, > to attain Samadhi. On the other hand, if you are doing it > consciously, than all animate objects or sentient beings would be in > Samadhi also. " > > " When I am in Samadhi, " observed Zhi Huang, " I know neither > consciousness nor unconsciousness. " > > " If that is the case, " said Xuan Ce, " it is perpetual Samadhi; in > which state there is neither abiding nor leaving. That state which > you can abide in or leave off is not the great Samadhi. " > > Zhi Huang was dumbfounded. After a long while, he asked, " May I know > who is your teacher? " > > " My teacher is the Sixth Patriarch of Cao Xi, " replied Xuan Ce. > > " How does he define Dhyana and Samadhi? " Zhi Huang asked. > > " According to his teaching, " replied Xuan Ce, " the Dharmakaya is > perfect and serene; its quintessence and its function are in a state > of Thusness. The five Skandhas (aggregates) are intrinsically void > and the six sense-objects are non-existent. There is neither abiding > nor leaving in Samadhi. There is neither quietude nor perturbation. > The nature of dhyana is non-abiding, so we should get above the > state of 'abiding in the calmness of dhyana'. The nature of Dhyana > is uncreative, so we should get above the notion of 'creating a > state of Dhyana'. The state of the mind may be likened unto space, > but (it is infinite) and so it is without the limitations of the > latter. " > > Having heard this, Zhi Huang went immediately to Cao Xi to interview > the Patriarch. Upon being asked whence he came, he told the > Patriarch in detail the conversation he had had with Xuan Ce. > > " What Xuan Ce said is quite right, " said the Patriarch. Let your > mind be in a state such as that of the illimitable void, but do not > attach it to the idea of 'vacuity'. Let it function freely. Whether > you are in activity or at rest, let your mind abide nowhere. Forget > the discrimination between a sage and an ordinary man. Ignore the > distinction of subject and object. Let the Essence of Mind and all > phenomenal objects be in a state of Thusness. Then you will be in > Samadhi all the time. " > > Zhi Huang was thereby fully enlightened. What he had considered for > the past twenty years as an attainment now vanished. On that night > inhabitants of He Bei (the northern bank of the Yellow River) heard > a voice in the air to the effect that Dhyana Master Zhi Huang had on > that day gained enlightenment. > > Some time after Zhi Huang bid the Patriarch adieu and returned to He > Bei, where he taught a great number of men and women, monks as well > as the laity. > > > Again, thank you, Willy. > > Best wishes, > > KKT Thanks KKT, let me tell you what I took away from the story, and you can tell me if I got your message. If I am abiding in enlightenment, I must have that thought of abiding. If another can show me, or rather, get me to see that I am abiding in the thought of abiding, the thought may come to an end, bringing also to an end the abider. This could be called an act of enlightenment. If I then take that act as showing that I am enlightened, the abider is born again, or reincarnated. Thus we can say that there is no abiding. If another takes that no abiding as not abiding, a no-abider is born, and abides in the thought of not-abiding. That is what the story says to me. If we are as ships passing in the night, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Oh heavens, I see some editing has gone on. Before the bit about " I would like to share with you, " place the following: " KKT: Thanks for sharing your experience, Willy. Of course, I cannot comment on your experience, just have an observation: Whatever experience one has, it should have some << permanent >> quality to have a definitive value. " After my last paragraph, place the following: " The only permanent value I think an experience of any kind has is that which it adds to the understanding. I don't think of the understanding of the problems of not being awake to the act of reflection as enlightenment, but only as a practical problem to be solved. As such, I would say it is not so much as finding an answer as it is finding the problem. If awareness of the problem is the solution to the problem, then the problem, regardless of what it is, is the upshot of being blind to the problem. Also best wishes, WB " Nisargadatta , " seesaw1us " <seesaw1us> wrote: > I'd like to share with you > > a paragraph from > > The Sutra of Hui Neng, > > the Sixth Patriarch of Ch'an (Zen) > > > > > > Bhikkhu Zhi Huang, a follower of the Dhyana School, after his > > consultation with the Fifth Patriarch (as to the progress of his > > work) considered himself as having attained Samadhi. For twenty > > years he confined himself in a small temple and kept up the position > > all the time. > > > > Xuan Ce, a disciple of the Sixth Patriarch on a meditation journey > > to the northern bank of Huang He, heard about him and called at his > > temple. > > > > " What are you doing here? " asked Xuan Ce. > > > > " I am abiding in Samadhi, " replied his friend, Zhi Huang. > > > > " Abiding in Samadhi, did you say? " observed Xuan Ce. " I wish to know > > whether you are doing it consciously or unconsciously. For if you > > are doing it unconsciously, it would mean that it is possible for > > all inanimate objects such as earthenware, stones, trees, and weeds, > > to attain Samadhi. On the other hand, if you are doing it > > consciously, than all animate objects or sentient beings would be in > > Samadhi also. " > > > > " When I am in Samadhi, " observed Zhi Huang, " I know neither > > consciousness nor unconsciousness. " > > > > " If that is the case, " said Xuan Ce, " it is perpetual Samadhi; in > > which state there is neither abiding nor leaving. That state which > > you can abide in or leave off is not the great Samadhi. " > > > > Zhi Huang was dumbfounded. After a long while, he asked, " May I know > > who is your teacher? " > > > > " My teacher is the Sixth Patriarch of Cao Xi, " replied Xuan Ce. > > > > " How does he define Dhyana and Samadhi? " Zhi Huang asked. > > > > " According to his teaching, " replied Xuan Ce, " the Dharmakaya is > > perfect and serene; its quintessence and its function are in a state > > of Thusness. The five Skandhas (aggregates) are intrinsically void > > and the six sense-objects are non-existent. There is neither abiding > > nor leaving in Samadhi. There is neither quietude nor perturbation. > > The nature of dhyana is non-abiding, so we should get above the > > state of 'abiding in the calmness of dhyana'. The nature of Dhyana > > is uncreative, so we should get above the notion of 'creating a > > state of Dhyana'. The state of the mind may be likened unto space, > > but (it is infinite) and so it is without the limitations of the > > latter. " > > > > Having heard this, Zhi Huang went immediately to Cao Xi to interview > > the Patriarch. Upon being asked whence he came, he told the > > Patriarch in detail the conversation he had had with Xuan Ce. > > > > " What Xuan Ce said is quite right, " said the Patriarch. Let your > > mind be in a state such as that of the illimitable void, but do not > > attach it to the idea of 'vacuity'. Let it function freely. Whether > > you are in activity or at rest, let your mind abide nowhere. Forget > > the discrimination between a sage and an ordinary man. Ignore the > > distinction of subject and object. Let the Essence of Mind and all > > phenomenal objects be in a state of Thusness. Then you will be in > > Samadhi all the time. " > > > > Zhi Huang was thereby fully enlightened. What he had considered for > > the past twenty years as an attainment now vanished. On that night > > inhabitants of He Bei (the northern bank of the Yellow River) heard > > a voice in the air to the effect that Dhyana Master Zhi Huang had on > > that day gained enlightenment. > > > > Some time after Zhi Huang bid the Patriarch adieu and returned to He > > Bei, where he taught a great number of men and women, monks as well > > as the laity. > > > > > > Again, thank you, Willy. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > KKT > > Thanks KKT, let me tell you what I took away from the story, and you > can tell me if I got your message. If I am abiding in enlightenment, I > must have that thought of abiding. If another can show me, or rather, > get me to see that I am abiding in the thought of abiding, the thought > may come to an end, bringing also to an end the abider. This could be > called an act of enlightenment. If I then take that act as showing > that I am enlightened, the abider is born again, or reincarnated. Thus > we can say that there is no abiding. If another takes that no abiding > as not abiding, a no-abider is born, and abides in the thought of > not-abiding. That is what the story says to me. If we are as ships > passing in the night, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 - " seesaw1us " <seesaw1us <Nisargadatta > Thursday, December 04, 2003 05:39 AM KKT & Willy Raping <SNIP> > Thanks KKT, let me tell you what I took away from the story, and you > can tell me if I got your message. If I am abiding in enlightenment, I > must have that thought of abiding. Unless,... there is total unawareness of this abidance, ..........(which is not the thought of being unaware) > If another can show me, or rather, > get me to see that I am abiding in the thought of abiding, the thought > may come to an end, bringing also to an end the abider. This could be > called an act of enlightenment. If I then take that act as showing > that I am enlightened, the abider is born again, or reincarnated. Yes. Enlightenment, as like Advaita,..............is the end of the concept of enlightenment, the end of the concept of Advaita. > Thus > we can say that there is no abiding. If another takes that no abiding > as not abiding, a no-abider is born, and abides in the thought of > not-abiding. Yes. Thus the state of the absence of the presence of abiding,........................AND...........the absence of the absence of the presence of abiding,...........is the pheromones of a crisp lit Cohiba cigar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Alas, I get Cuban cigars only when a friend of mine returns from his trips to the UK. ----willy Nisargadatta , Sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > - > " seesaw1us " <seesaw1us> > <Nisargadatta > > Thursday, December 04, 2003 05:39 AM > KKT & Willy Raping > > > <SNIP> > > > > Thanks KKT, let me tell you what I took away from the story, and you > > can tell me if I got your message. If I am abiding in enlightenment, I > > must have that thought of abiding. > > > Unless,... there is total unawareness of this abidance, ...........(which is not the thought of being unaware) > > > > > If another can show me, or rather, > > get me to see that I am abiding in the thought of abiding, the thought > > may come to an end, bringing also to an end the abider. This could be > > called an act of enlightenment. If I then take that act as showing > > that I am enlightened, the abider is born again, or reincarnated. > > > Yes. > > Enlightenment, as like Advaita,..............is the end of the concept of enlightenment, the end of the concept of Advaita. > > > > > > > Thus > > we can say that there is no abiding. If another takes that no abiding > > as not abiding, a no-abider is born, and abides in the thought of > > not-abiding. > > > > Yes. > > > Thus the state of the absence of the presence of abiding,........................AND...........the absence of the absence of the presence of abiding,...........is the pheromones of a crisp lit Cohiba cigar. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 - Willy! For man with such fine understanding of how thoughs get in the way, you show here, an undue attachment to your thoughts. My apologies, for not realizing the preciousness of what I left out. -- In Nisargadatta , " Will Brown " <wilbro99> wrote: > Oh heavens, I see some editing has gone on. Before the bit about " I > would like to share with you, " place the following: > > " KKT: Thanks for sharing your experience, Willy. Of course, I cannot > comment on your experience, just have an observation: Whatever > experience one has, it should have some << permanent >> quality to > have a definitive value. " > > After my last paragraph, place the following: > > " The only permanent value I think an experience of any kind has is > that which it adds to the understanding. I don't think of the > understanding of the problems of not being awake to the act of > reflection as enlightenment, but only as a practical problem to be > solved. As such, I would say it is not so much as finding an answer as > it is finding the problem. If awareness of the problem is the solution > to the problem, then the problem, regardless of what it is, is the > upshot of being blind to the problem. > > Also best wishes, > > WB " > > > Nisargadatta , " seesaw1us " <seesaw1us> wrote: > > I'd like to share with you > > > a paragraph from > > > The Sutra of Hui Neng, > > > the Sixth Patriarch of Ch'an (Zen) > > > > > > > > > Bhikkhu Zhi Huang, a follower of the Dhyana School, after his > > > consultation with the Fifth Patriarch (as to the progress of his > > > work) considered himself as having attained Samadhi. For twenty > > > years he confined himself in a small temple and kept up the position > > > all the time. > > > > > > Xuan Ce, a disciple of the Sixth Patriarch on a meditation journey > > > to the northern bank of Huang He, heard about him and called at his > > > temple. > > > > > > " What are you doing here? " asked Xuan Ce. > > > > > > " I am abiding in Samadhi, " replied his friend, Zhi Huang. > > > > > > " Abiding in Samadhi, did you say? " observed Xuan Ce. " I wish to know > > > whether you are doing it consciously or unconsciously. For if you > > > are doing it unconsciously, it would mean that it is possible for > > > all inanimate objects such as earthenware, stones, trees, and weeds, > > > to attain Samadhi. On the other hand, if you are doing it > > > consciously, than all animate objects or sentient beings would be in > > > Samadhi also. " > > > > > > " When I am in Samadhi, " observed Zhi Huang, " I know neither > > > consciousness nor unconsciousness. " > > > > > > " If that is the case, " said Xuan Ce, " it is perpetual Samadhi; in > > > which state there is neither abiding nor leaving. That state which > > > you can abide in or leave off is not the great Samadhi. " > > > > > > Zhi Huang was dumbfounded. After a long while, he asked, " May I know > > > who is your teacher? " > > > > > > " My teacher is the Sixth Patriarch of Cao Xi, " replied Xuan Ce. > > > > > > " How does he define Dhyana and Samadhi? " Zhi Huang asked. > > > > > > " According to his teaching, " replied Xuan Ce, " the Dharmakaya is > > > perfect and serene; its quintessence and its function are in a state > > > of Thusness. The five Skandhas (aggregates) are intrinsically void > > > and the six sense-objects are non-existent. There is neither abiding > > > nor leaving in Samadhi. There is neither quietude nor perturbation. > > > The nature of dhyana is non-abiding, so we should get above the > > > state of 'abiding in the calmness of dhyana'. The nature of Dhyana > > > is uncreative, so we should get above the notion of 'creating a > > > state of Dhyana'. The state of the mind may be likened unto space, > > > but (it is infinite) and so it is without the limitations of the > > > latter. " > > > > > > Having heard this, Zhi Huang went immediately to Cao Xi to interview > > > the Patriarch. Upon being asked whence he came, he told the > > > Patriarch in detail the conversation he had had with Xuan Ce. > > > > > > " What Xuan Ce said is quite right, " said the Patriarch. Let your > > > mind be in a state such as that of the illimitable void, but do not > > > attach it to the idea of 'vacuity'. Let it function freely. Whether > > > you are in activity or at rest, let your mind abide nowhere. Forget > > > the discrimination between a sage and an ordinary man. Ignore the > > > distinction of subject and object. Let the Essence of Mind and all > > > phenomenal objects be in a state of Thusness. Then you will be in > > > Samadhi all the time. " > > > > > > Zhi Huang was thereby fully enlightened. What he had considered for > > > the past twenty years as an attainment now vanished. On that night > > > inhabitants of He Bei (the northern bank of the Yellow River) heard > > > a voice in the air to the effect that Dhyana Master Zhi Huang had on > > > that day gained enlightenment. > > > > > > Some time after Zhi Huang bid the Patriarch adieu and returned to He > > > Bei, where he taught a great number of men and women, monks as well > > > as the laity. > > > > > > > > > Again, thank you, Willy. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > KKT > > > > Thanks KKT, let me tell you what I took away from the story, and you > > can tell me if I got your message. If I am abiding in enlightenment, I > > must have that thought of abiding. If another can show me, or rather, > > get me to see that I am abiding in the thought of abiding, the thought > > may come to an end, bringing also to an end the abider. This could be > > called an act of enlightenment. If I then take that act as showing > > that I am enlightened, the abider is born again, or reincarnated. Thus > > we can say that there is no abiding. If another takes that no abiding > > as not abiding, a no-abider is born, and abides in the thought of > > not-abiding. That is what the story says to me. If we are as ships > > passing in the night, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 " preciousness " ? Thanks for the chuckle Pete. Has the Gollum got you? ----willy_da_wisp Nisargadatta , " seesaw1us " <seesaw1us> wrote: > - > Willy! For man with such fine understanding of how thoughs get in the > way, you show here, an undue attachment to your thoughts. My > apologies, for not realizing the preciousness of what I left out. > > > -- In Nisargadatta , " Will Brown " <wilbro99> > wrote: > > Oh heavens, I see some editing has gone on. Before the bit about " I > > would like to share with you, " place the following: > > > > " KKT: Thanks for sharing your experience, Willy. Of course, I cannot > > comment on your experience, just have an observation: Whatever > > experience one has, it should have some << permanent >> quality to > > have a definitive value. " > > > > After my last paragraph, place the following: > > > > " The only permanent value I think an experience of any kind has is > > that which it adds to the understanding. I don't think of the > > understanding of the problems of not being awake to the act of > > reflection as enlightenment, but only as a practical problem to be > > solved. As such, I would say it is not so much as finding an answer > as > > it is finding the problem. If awareness of the problem is the > solution > > to the problem, then the problem, regardless of what it is, is the > > upshot of being blind to the problem. > > > > Also best wishes, > > > > WB " > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " seesaw1us " <seesaw1us> > wrote: > > > I'd like to share with you > > > > a paragraph from > > > > The Sutra of Hui Neng, > > > > the Sixth Patriarch of Ch'an (Zen) > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhikkhu Zhi Huang, a follower of the Dhyana School, after his > > > > consultation with the Fifth Patriarch (as to the progress of his > > > > work) considered himself as having attained Samadhi. For twenty > > > > years he confined himself in a small temple and kept up the > position > > > > all the time. > > > > > > > > Xuan Ce, a disciple of the Sixth Patriarch on a meditation > journey > > > > to the northern bank of Huang He, heard about him and called at > his > > > > temple. > > > > > > > > " What are you doing here? " asked Xuan Ce. > > > > > > > > " I am abiding in Samadhi, " replied his friend, Zhi Huang. > > > > > > > > " Abiding in Samadhi, did you say? " observed Xuan Ce. " I wish to > know > > > > whether you are doing it consciously or unconsciously. For if > you > > > > are doing it unconsciously, it would mean that it is possible > for > > > > all inanimate objects such as earthenware, stones, trees, and > weeds, > > > > to attain Samadhi. On the other hand, if you are doing it > > > > consciously, than all animate objects or sentient beings would > be in > > > > Samadhi also. " > > > > > > > > " When I am in Samadhi, " observed Zhi Huang, " I know neither > > > > consciousness nor unconsciousness. " > > > > > > > > " If that is the case, " said Xuan Ce, " it is perpetual Samadhi; > in > > > > which state there is neither abiding nor leaving. That state > which > > > > you can abide in or leave off is not the great Samadhi. " > > > > > > > > Zhi Huang was dumbfounded. After a long while, he asked, " May I > know > > > > who is your teacher? " > > > > > > > > " My teacher is the Sixth Patriarch of Cao Xi, " replied Xuan Ce. > > > > > > > > " How does he define Dhyana and Samadhi? " Zhi Huang asked. > > > > > > > > " According to his teaching, " replied Xuan Ce, " the Dharmakaya is > > > > perfect and serene; its quintessence and its function are in a > state > > > > of Thusness. The five Skandhas (aggregates) are intrinsically > void > > > > and the six sense-objects are non-existent. There is neither > abiding > > > > nor leaving in Samadhi. There is neither quietude nor > perturbation. > > > > The nature of dhyana is non-abiding, so we should get above the > > > > state of 'abiding in the calmness of dhyana'. The nature of > Dhyana > > > > is uncreative, so we should get above the notion of 'creating a > > > > state of Dhyana'. The state of the mind may be likened unto > space, > > > > but (it is infinite) and so it is without the limitations of the > > > > latter. " > > > > > > > > Having heard this, Zhi Huang went immediately to Cao Xi to > interview > > > > the Patriarch. Upon being asked whence he came, he told the > > > > Patriarch in detail the conversation he had had with Xuan Ce. > > > > > > > > " What Xuan Ce said is quite right, " said the Patriarch. Let your > > > > mind be in a state such as that of the illimitable void, but do > not > > > > attach it to the idea of 'vacuity'. Let it function freely. > Whether > > > > you are in activity or at rest, let your mind abide nowhere. > Forget > > > > the discrimination between a sage and an ordinary man. Ignore > the > > > > distinction of subject and object. Let the Essence of Mind and > all > > > > phenomenal objects be in a state of Thusness. Then you will be > in > > > > Samadhi all the time. " > > > > > > > > Zhi Huang was thereby fully enlightened. What he had considered > for > > > > the past twenty years as an attainment now vanished. On that > night > > > > inhabitants of He Bei (the northern bank of the Yellow River) > heard > > > > a voice in the air to the effect that Dhyana Master Zhi Huang > had on > > > > that day gained enlightenment. > > > > > > > > Some time after Zhi Huang bid the Patriarch adieu and returned > to He > > > > Bei, where he taught a great number of men and women, monks as > well > > > > as the laity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, thank you, Willy. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > KKT > > > > > > Thanks KKT, let me tell you what I took away from the story, and > you > > > can tell me if I got your message. If I am abiding in > enlightenment, I > > > must have that thought of abiding. If another can show me, or > rather, > > > get me to see that I am abiding in the thought of abiding, the > thought > > > may come to an end, bringing also to an end the abider. This > could be > > > called an act of enlightenment. If I then take that act as showing > > > that I am enlightened, the abider is born again, or reincarnated. > Thus > > > we can say that there is no abiding. If another takes that no > abiding > > > as not abiding, a no-abider is born, and abides in the thought of > > > not-abiding. That is what the story says to me. If we are as ships > > > passing in the night, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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