Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Hi Dan, > in which you can read THIS FINAL ABSOLUTE STATEMENT : > " Total noumenal presence and total phenomenal absence are ONE as they stand: > never can they be two, there is no beyond; whatever a logician may maintain > semantically, this statement is final and states the absolute in so far as that > can be stated. " Hmmm. Interesting. That statement has the shortcoming of requiring phenomenal absence. Which is a condition. Thus, contradictorily, making the absolute into a conditional state, requiring total phenomenal absence (as opposed to partial phenomenal absence??? LOL). Well, Dan,............speak or desist to speak,.............and conditionality has happened. Gray or Wei-wu-Wei, is dead and gone, so what is available is a record of someone's interpretation of what he is supposed to have said or not said, without the context of the moment in which that speaking happened. Something which is equally applicable to say Buddha, Ramana, or Nisargadatta's stuff. The very attempt to describe, which itself has no need to be described, .....let alone be describable,.......is birth of conceptualization. Since the doctors have been severe on the access of Cohiba cigars,......let's have some more conceptualization. Noumenal presence does not require phenomenal absence, for that would, as you say,... make it a conditional consequence. Noumenal presence is immanence in phenomenal presence or absence, ...............while being simultaneously transcendental to both. The waking horse, stands on it's legs. The same horse,..... while sleeping , is still standing on it's legs. The waking or sleeping of the horse, does not alter in any way the intrinsic standing position. Which again is not a consequential result of either the waking condition or the sleeping condition. The appearance or disappearance of phenomenality, does not in any way alter or have any causal link to noumenal unicity. This is complete. That is complete. Out of That,...........This Arose. And when This Arose, ........what remained..... remained complete. That........is.........This.............and simultaneously...................not-This. I am the Dreaming, ........ever complete as the very dreaming,............while remaining a witness to the dreaming. Thus, I find the statement inadequate, and find myself forced to point out that necessarily the absolute is the relative, and the relative the absolute, and therefore the terms absolute and relative don't pertain as categories for truth. No categories would be pertainable. To the extent that the urge to move fingers over a key-board arises,............the absolute is the relative, while simultaneously being transcendental to the relative. In my last night sleep dream, I was all the dreamed -up characters, ..........every one of them, .........the enlightened Gurus , the wananbe-gurus, the seekers, .......the wise and the assholes,.......the living and the dying...... While simultaneously, being soundly asleep in the bed. If phenomenal presence is taken to be the waking state, .... ......the phenomenal absence is taken to be the sleep-state,.... ..... the absence of phenomenal presence AND the absence of phenomenal absence,... taken to be the deep-sleep state,..... ........all these three states,..........as I,.................appear and disappear,..... ....while ........... This is why when someone asked Joshu (Chou-chou in Chinese) questions about the ultimate (like, what is Buddha Nature, what did Bodhidharma come to China to convey, who am I, who are you, and such) he would often say things considered irrelevant, or seemingly ignore the question and do something, like kick a post or stump. Once in a while, in case they thought he was ignoring what they asked, he would say, " my teaching is difficult, my meaning is deep. " What Wei Wu Wei said above has the shortcoming of seeming to offer some kind of finalized statement -- Finalized,....... " in so far as that can be stated. " which is a contradiction, making the absolute able to be defined once and for all in a relative sentence, which would make the absolute just another relative thing, with particular sentences able to define its nature. > And also this : > > " Of every direct perception, however luminous it may be, we should know > that to the majority of the readers of its expression it will appear nonsensical, > to a minority a mystery, and to a very few a faint reflection of a luminosity that > glimmers within themselves. > For it is the nature of such expression to appear impenetrable to the deductions > of the objectivising mind. " Sure. Any mind maintaining a sense of its continuity in time wouldn't be able to grasp the nature of that from which time comes. Grasping " this " would shatter the basis for self-continuity, which a mind would have to avoid if it were to maintain self-construal as if an ongoing reference point for experience. Yes. Mind can never know that,.. which enables the mind to be known. -- Dan New Photos - easier uploading and sharing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 At our moon viewing party, no one had a beautiful face. :-) Nisargadatta , pete seesaw <seesaw1us> wrote: > Hi Dan, > > > > > in which you can read THIS FINAL ABSOLUTE STATEMENT : > > " Total noumenal presence and total phenomenal absence are ONE as > they stand: > > never can they be two, there is no beyond; whatever a logician may > maintain > > semantically, this statement is final and states the absolute in so > far as that > > can be stated. " > > Hmmm. Interesting. That statement has the shortcoming of requiring > phenomenal absence. Which is a condition. Thus, > contradictorily, making the absolute into a conditional > state, requiring total phenomenal absence (as opposed > to partial phenomenal absence??? LOL). > > > Well, Dan,............speak or desist to speak,.............and conditionality has happened. > > Gray or Wei-wu-Wei, is dead and gone, so what is available is a record of someone's interpretation of what he is supposed to have said or not said, without the context of the moment in which that speaking happened. > > Something which is equally applicable to say Buddha, Ramana, or Nisargadatta's stuff. > > The very attempt to describe, which itself has no need to be described, .....let alone be describable,.......is birth of conceptualization. > > Since the doctors have been severe on the access of Cohiba cigars,......let's have some more conceptualization. > > Noumenal presence does not require phenomenal absence, for that would, as you say,... make it a conditional consequence. > > Noumenal presence is immanence in phenomenal presence or absence, ..............while being simultaneously transcendental to both. > > The waking horse, stands on it's legs. > The same horse,..... while sleeping , is still standing on it's legs. > > The waking or sleeping of the horse, does not alter in any way the intrinsic standing position. > > Which again is not a consequential result of either the waking condition or the sleeping condition. > > The appearance or disappearance of phenomenality, does not in any way alter or have any causal link to noumenal unicity. > > This is complete. > That is complete. > > Out of That,...........This Arose. > > And when This Arose, ........what remained..... > remained complete. > > That........is.........This.............and simultaneously...................not-This. > > I am the Dreaming, ........ever complete as the very dreaming,............while remaining a witness to the dreaming. > > > > > Thus, I find the statement inadequate, and find myself forced > to point out that necessarily the absolute is the relative, > and the relative the absolute, and therefore the terms > absolute and relative don't pertain as categories for truth. > > No categories would be pertainable. > > To the extent that the urge to move fingers over a key-board arises,............the absolute is the relative, while simultaneously being transcendental to the relative. > > In my last night sleep dream, I was all the dreamed -up characters, .........every one of them, .........the enlightened Gurus , the wananbe-gurus, the seekers, .......the wise and the assholes,.......the living and the dying...... > > While simultaneously, being soundly asleep in the bed. > > > > If phenomenal presence is taken to be the waking state, .... > > .....the phenomenal absence is taken to be the sleep-state,.... > > .... the absence of phenomenal presence AND the absence of phenomenal absence,... taken to be the deep-sleep state,..... > > .......all these three states,..........as I,.................appear and disappear,..... > > ...while ........... > > > > > This is why when someone asked Joshu (Chou-chou in Chinese) > questions about the ultimate (like, what is Buddha Nature, > what did Bodhidharma come to China to convey, who am I, > who are you, and such) he would often say things considered > irrelevant, or seemingly ignore the question and do something, > like kick a post or stump. > > Once in a while, in case they thought he was ignoring what > they asked, he would say, " my teaching is difficult, > my meaning is deep. " > > What Wei Wu Wei said above has the shortcoming of seeming > to offer some kind of finalized statement -- > > Finalized,....... " in so far as that can be stated. " > > > > which > is a contradiction, making the absolute able to > be defined once and for all in a relative sentence, > which would make the absolute just another relative > thing, with particular sentences able to define its > nature. > > > And also this : > > > > " Of every direct perception, however luminous it may be, we should > know > > that to the majority of the readers of its expression it will > appear nonsensical, > > to a minority a mystery, and to a very few a faint reflection of a > luminosity that > > glimmers within themselves. > > For it is the nature of such expression to appear impenetrable to > the deductions > > of the objectivising mind. " > > Sure. Any mind maintaining a sense of its continuity > in time wouldn't be able to grasp the nature of > that from which time comes. Grasping " this " would > shatter the basis for self-continuity, which a mind > would have to avoid if it were to maintain self-construal > as if an ongoing reference point for experience. > > > Yes. > > Mind can never know that,.. which enables the mind to be known. > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > New Photos - easier uploading and sharing > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 - " dan330033 " <dan330033 <Nisargadatta > Monday, December 08, 2003 08:41 AM Re: Dan & Sandy Rapping > At our moon viewing party, > no one had a beautiful face. > > :-) But our baying was in resonance. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Nisargadatta , Sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > - > " dan330033 " <dan330033> > <Nisargadatta > > Monday, December 08, 2003 08:41 AM > Re: Dan & Sandy Rapping > > > > At our moon viewing party, > > no one had a beautiful face. > > > > :-) > > But our baying was in resonance. > > :-) Bayings echoing from rock walls- The lone wolf pricks its ears. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Nisargadatta , " seesaw1us " <seesaw1us> wrote: > Nisargadatta , Sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > - > > " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > <Nisargadatta > > > Monday, December 08, 2003 08:41 AM > > Re: Dan & Sandy Rapping > > > > > > > At our moon viewing party, > > > no one had a beautiful face. > > > > > > :-) > > > > But our baying was in resonance. > > > > :-) > > Bayings echoing from rock walls- > The lone wolf pricks its ears. > > Pete grass grows unconcerned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Nisargadatta , Sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > - > " dan330033 " <dan330033> > <Nisargadatta > > Monday, December 08, 2003 08:41 AM > Re: Dan & Sandy Rapping > > > > At our moon viewing party, > > no one had a beautiful face. > > > > :-) > > But our baying was in resonance. > > :-) Yaaooowwwwooooooooooo! Werewolves of Undone. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Nisargadatta , " seesaw1us " <seesaw1us> wrote: > Nisargadatta , Sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > - > > " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > <Nisargadatta > > > Monday, December 08, 2003 08:41 AM > > Re: Dan & Sandy Rapping > > > > > > > At our moon viewing party, > > > no one had a beautiful face. > > > > > > :-) > > > > But our baying was in resonance. > > > > :-) > > Bayings echoing from rock walls- > The lone wolf pricks its ears. > > Pete Yow! Yow! Yoooowwwwooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Nisargadatta , " eric paroissien " <vertvetiver> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " seesaw1us " <seesaw1us> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > > - > > > " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > > <Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, December 08, 2003 08:41 AM > > > Re: Dan & Sandy Rapping > > > > > > > > > > At our moon viewing party, > > > > no one had a beautiful face. > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > But our baying was in resonance. > > > > > > :-) > > > > Bayings echoing from rock walls- > > The lone wolf pricks its ears. > > > > Pete > > grass grows unconcerned sure -- it doesn't have mortgage payments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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