Climbing.

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Message: 1

Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:14:23 -0000

" caspardegroot " <caspardegroot

Re: Flame out to all you post-happy understanders

 

Pete:

 

> So Caspar, What do you think liberation is?

 

Liberation is the attainment of the final state. Liberation is unity

with the source. The source cannot be caused, found or experienced.

Yet it is the only real. And yes, the bundles of feelings, thoughts

and apparent body parts that are commonly referred to as humans, have

of course sprung from the source and are at the same time IN the

source. Therefore, there is some merit to statements like " You are

it! It is here and now! " However, these bundles are not freed by such

insights, since the insight is only another appearance in the source.

These bundles are only freed when they cease to exist as bundles.

THAT is liberation. It is attained when the bundle strives to

eliminate itself with sufficient energy and discipline, like a snake

catching hold of its own tail and then eating itself little by

little. What happens when it gets to its head? Yes, well, that's

probably where effort ceases to be of value and grace is required.

However, most seekers need not address this issue since they haven't

eaven begun gnawing at their tails. They seems to be just sort of

sniffing at it, and being very content with that too.

 

> Would not liberation mean complete acceptance of phenomenality?

> Including what " the people in the swamp " consider suffering,

delusion,

> inaction, bondage, etc.?

 

Well, phenomenality cannot be denied, that's for sure. But

acceptance... I don't know. Acceptance might suggest that it's fine

to remain at the mercy of our conditionings, as long as we just

accept them. Using the term " acceptance " , one might be tempted to

justify being a selfish monster by " accepting " it as part of

phenomenality. This kind of acceptance I would call resignation. Or

even an excuse. In any case, with this kind of acceptance it is the

ego that's doing the accepting. So the term acceptance is a tricky

one. If however you are talking about acceptance as a basis from

which you can restrain yourself from responding to phenomena with

attempts to defend the ego, then I think I concur that *complete*

acceptance would probably be paramount to liberation.

 

> Would not that mean that 'what is' is perfect right now?

 

Misery is not perfect. Being at the mercy of one's conditionings is

not perfect. Expected non-dualist response: Who is at the mercy? More

semantic games. I'm sure you understand the state that I'm referring

to.

 

> What do 'you' think would happen to 'you' if you die unliberated?

 

The real me? Clearly the real me is always unaffected. If you mean

the body-mind that is typing this message and that *IS* definitely

unliberated, it'll probably be away for awhile and then reappear in a

similar form in a similar world--the two being 2 sides of the same

coin.

 

> Does the sage survives death as a sage, and the deluded as deluded?

 

The sage is dead already, in the sense that he's not a person. He is

also eternal life of course, since what remains cannot be born or

die. So the question doesn't apply to the sage. The deluded, well,

new delusions will arise after the demise of the body... so in a way

the deluded " reincarnate " .

 

> What is preventing you from seeing everything is perfect now?

 

You assume that everything *is* perfect and that I don't see it.

Though this sounds a lot like what all the famous sages are saying,

my point is that realization of this perfection requires a struggle.

What I see now, is that I cause pain and sorrow in this world.

Without the struggle, that will not change. I can't really speak for

--\

--------------------------

IMO

 

Dreamwork - Jung - Individuation - Centeredness would be good start.