Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 To take non-doing to its last implication, without ignoring how things really work, we must give wanting, rejecting and deciding their rightful place. No one wins the lottery without owning a lottery ticket. Deciding to buy or accepting a ticket, is required to win. This doesn't mean that there was a decision to decide, or a wanting to want, or an entity who did so. Wanting, rejecting, and deciding happens subconsciously without will. Will is simply the recognition that a decision have been made and the subsequent attribution of that decision to an entity. To simply say we need do nothing, we don't have to want or decide is to ignore the way things happen. If that were true we could simply sit behind the steering wheel and the car would start by itself and get going. If that sounds ridiculous, it's no less so, to believe realization will happen by itself without the necessary steps. Pete Find out what made the Top Searches of 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 - " pete seesaw " <seesaw1us <nisargadatta > Cc: <directapproach > Monday, January 05, 2004 10:55 PM Do nothing Implications > To take non-doing to its last implication, without ignoring how things really work, we must give wanting, rejecting and deciding >their rightful place. No one wins the lottery without owning a lottery ticket. Deciding to buy or accepting a ticket, is required to >win. This doesn't mean that there was a decision to decide, or a wanting to want, or an entity who did so. Wanting, rejecting, and >deciding happens subconsciously without will. Living is choosing. In the moment. Moment to moment to moment. So choosing is constantly taking place, between this and that. The projection that there is a discrete separated self, with independent volition,...... doing the choosing in the moment,............is what births the hoopla. Will is simply the recognition that a decision have been made and the subsequent attribution of that decision to an entity. To simply say we need do nothing, we don't have to want or decide is to ignore the way things happen. That we need to do something is the same as that we need do nothing. Both rest on the premise that there is a " we " to decide either way. > If that were true we could simply sit behind the steering wheel and the car would start by itself and get going. For any eventing, arising out of a choosing,.............ten thousand things had to happen, precisely in the way the all happened, such that the convergence of all these eventings, results in that choosing taking place, in the moment. Today neuro-biologists......... Recent studies, as late as last year, shows that the hormone, corticotropin releasing factor (CRF), initiates and controls the interchange of messages between the hypothalamus and the pituitary and adrenal glands - the so-called " HPA axis " that regulates the response of the body-mind complex, to a situation, to a circumstance in life. It is CRF that " tells " the pituary gland to release adrenocorticotropic hormonme (ACTH), which then orchestrates the release of other stress hormones, such as cortisol. Based on evidence from animal and human studies, researchers have long suspected that increased CRF activity in the brain plays a significant role in the development of " seeing a particular life-situation as unbearable, depressive, threatening, entrapping, or their counterparts as profoundly beautiful, joy, positive, etc " . Studies on the HPA axis hyperactivity, has now shown a direct correlation between HPA axis hyperactivity and the " meaning " that a life-situation connotes for you. Why would someone's HPA axis go haywire? Researchers suspect that it is probably due to a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Genetic abnormalities can cause an increase in the reactivity of the HPA axis to stress. Chronic stress can turn on a flood of cortisol and other glucocorticoids in the brain and body and push the HPA axis into overdrive. Early life stressors, such as sexual and physical abuse, have also been shown to " wire " the brain so that supersensitive hypothalamic cells react vigorously even to mild stressors. > If that sounds ridiculous, it's no less so, to believe realization will happen by itself without the necessary steps. Pete, suggest,...............the acausal,.................is not an event in the cause-effect continuum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 Nisargadatta , sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > - > " pete seesaw " <seesaw1us> > <nisargadatta > > Cc: <directapproach > > Monday, January 05, 2004 10:55 PM > Do nothing Implications > > > > To take non-doing to its last implication, without ignoring how things really work, we must give wanting, rejecting and deciding >their rightful place. No one wins the lottery without owning a lottery ticket. Deciding to buy or accepting a ticket, is required to > >win. This doesn't mean that there was a decision to decide, or a wanting to want, or an entity who did so. Wanting, rejecting, and >deciding happens subconsciously without will. > > > Living is choosing. > In the moment. > Moment to moment to moment. > So choosing is constantly taking place, between this and that. > > The projection that there is a discrete separated self, with independent volition,...... doing the choosing in the moment,............is what births the hoopla. > > > > > Will is simply the recognition that a decision have been made and the subsequent attribution of that decision to an entity. To simply say we need do nothing, we don't have to want or decide is to ignore the way things happen. > > > That we need to do something is the same as that we need do nothing. > > Both rest on the premise that there is a " we " to decide either way. > > > > > > > If that were true we could simply sit behind the steering wheel and the car would start by itself and get going. > > For any eventing, arising out of a choosing,.............ten thousand things had to happen, precisely in the way the all happened, such that the convergence of all these eventings, results in that choosing taking place, in the moment. > > > > Today neuro-biologists......... > > > > Recent studies, as late as last year, shows that the hormone, corticotropin releasing factor (CRF), initiates and controls the interchange of messages between the hypothalamus and the pituitary and adrenal glands - the so-called " HPA axis " that regulates the response of the body-mind complex, to a situation, to a circumstance in life. > > > > It is CRF that " tells " the pituary gland to release adrenocorticotropic hormonme (ACTH), which then orchestrates the release of other stress hormones, such as cortisol. > > Based on evidence from animal and human studies, researchers have long suspected that increased CRF activity in the brain plays a significant role in the development of " seeing a particular life-situation as unbearable, depressive, threatening, entrapping, or their counterparts as profoundly beautiful, joy, positive, etc " . > > Studies on the HPA axis hyperactivity, has now shown a direct correlation between HPA axis hyperactivity and the " meaning " that a life-situation connotes for you. > > Why would someone's HPA axis go haywire? > > Researchers suspect that it is probably due to a combination of genetic and environmental factors. > > Genetic abnormalities can cause an increase in the reactivity of the HPA axis to stress. > > Chronic stress can turn on a flood of cortisol and other glucocorticoids in the brain and body and push the HPA axis into overdrive. Early life stressors, such as sexual and physical abuse, have also been shown to " wire " the brain so that supersensitive hypothalamic cells react vigorously even to mild stressors. > > > > > If that sounds ridiculous, it's no less so, to believe realization will happen by itself without the necessary steps. > > > Pete, suggest,...............the acausal,.................is not an event in the cause-effect continuum. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 > In the Great War..(the one between neurons and hormones)...neurons always think that they have the upper hand....but the hormones...it seems...use that to their advantage... they are older...and smarter.. they don't think about hands and such...and always keep a few moves hidden... ROTFLOL I notice how neatly the above maps to the other Great War (the one between left hemisphere and right hemisphere). If you associate left with neurons and right with hormones... what is said above comes out exactly the same. [it is not common knowledge I guess, but the right hemisphere is older than the left.] Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 Yes, dear friend, let's not forget the brain. Many of these 'difficulties' fall into place when the electro-chemical dance Shiva does in the brain is acknowledged. Thanks for bringing that up, Pete Nisargadatta , sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > - > " pete seesaw " <seesaw1us> > <nisargadatta > > Cc: <directapproach > > Monday, January 05, 2004 10:55 PM > Do nothing Implications > > > > To take non-doing to its last implication, without ignoring how things really work, we must give wanting, rejecting and deciding >their rightful place. No one wins the lottery without owning a lottery ticket. Deciding to buy or accepting a ticket, is required to > >win. This doesn't mean that there was a decision to decide, or a wanting to want, or an entity who did so. Wanting, rejecting, and >deciding happens subconsciously without will. > > > Living is choosing. > In the moment. > Moment to moment to moment. > So choosing is constantly taking place, between this and that. > > The projection that there is a discrete separated self, with independent volition,...... doing the choosing in the moment,............is what births the hoopla. > > > > > Will is simply the recognition that a decision have been made and the subsequent attribution of that decision to an entity. To simply say we need do nothing, we don't have to want or decide is to ignore the way things happen. > > > That we need to do something is the same as that we need do nothing. > > Both rest on the premise that there is a " we " to decide either way. > > > > > > > If that were true we could simply sit behind the steering wheel and the car would start by itself and get going. > > For any eventing, arising out of a choosing,.............ten thousand things had to happen, precisely in the way the all happened, such that the convergence of all these eventings, results in that choosing taking place, in the moment. > > > > Today neuro-biologists......... > > > > Recent studies, as late as last year, shows that the hormone, corticotropin releasing factor (CRF), initiates and controls the interchange of messages between the hypothalamus and the pituitary and adrenal glands - the so-called " HPA axis " that regulates the response of the body-mind complex, to a situation, to a circumstance in life. > > > > It is CRF that " tells " the pituary gland to release adrenocorticotropic hormonme (ACTH), which then orchestrates the release of other stress hormones, such as cortisol. > > Based on evidence from animal and human studies, researchers have long suspected that increased CRF activity in the brain plays a significant role in the development of " seeing a particular life- situation as unbearable, depressive, threatening, entrapping, or their counterparts as profoundly beautiful, joy, positive, etc " . > > Studies on the HPA axis hyperactivity, has now shown a direct correlation between HPA axis hyperactivity and the " meaning " that a life-situation connotes for you. > > Why would someone's HPA axis go haywire? > > Researchers suspect that it is probably due to a combination of genetic and environmental factors. > > Genetic abnormalities can cause an increase in the reactivity of the HPA axis to stress. > > Chronic stress can turn on a flood of cortisol and other glucocorticoids in the brain and body and push the HPA axis into overdrive. Early life stressors, such as sexual and physical abuse, have also been shown to " wire " the brain so that supersensitive hypothalamic cells react vigorously even to mild stressors. > > > > > If that sounds ridiculous, it's no less so, to believe realization will happen by itself without the necessary steps. > > > Pete, suggest,...............the acausal,.................is not an event in the cause-effect continuum. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Bill Rishel " <plexus@x> wrote: > > In the Great War..(the one between neurons and hormones)...neurons always > think that they have the upper hand....but the hormones...it seems...use > that to their advantage... they are older...and smarter.. they don't think > about hands and such...and always keep a few moves hidden... > > ROTFLOL > > > I notice how neatly the above maps to the other Great War (the one between > left hemisphere and right hemisphere). If you associate left with neurons > and > right with hormones... what is said above comes out exactly the same. > [it is not common knowledge I guess, but the right hemisphere is older than > the left.] > > Bill Wonderful, you two! It's a well established circus rutine- after the elephants, the clowns. Bravo! ) Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 Nisargadatta , pete seesaw <seesaw1us> wrote: >>This doesn't mean that there was a decision to decide, or a wanting to want, or an entity who did so. Wanting, rejecting, and deciding happens subconsciously without will. hmm, Pete! You could state this, if you would have direct access to subconsciousness. A nice guess you wrote here and, kind of freudianic, too. When you introduce " subconsciousness " we are on the field of the psychoanalytical art. I would say the term " pre- consciousness " , coined by freud, would fit better, here, in your elaboration. Pre-consciousness as the freightroom for latent memories of all kind of type, including the memory called self. Subconsciousness, preconsciousness and even the concept consciousness, in its relationship to subconsciousness, have no definite anatomical nor neuro-hormonal correlate. They are constructions, models for further discussion introduced by freud approx. a century ago years to complement neurology for the treatment of mentally ill persons. Neurology studies and recognices different states of consciousness and *unconsciousness* in their texture regarding morphological, biochemical and physiologic components. Subconsciousness has, in replay to Sandeep's post (I didn't understand quite well concerning its relevance), no neuro- hormonal correlative. Even memory has no definite correlative neither biochemical, morphologic nor physiologically. My opinion is that of consciousness has a texture similar to the software of a computer. We are able to project this software apparently as apparent outwardly including us as agent, as entity operating in a a virtual space with the illusive notion of free will. >>Will is simply the recognition that a decision have been made and the subsequent attribution of that decision to an entity. That's what I tried to make plausible with the allegory of the fridge. There is a discussion going on among scientist in AI regarding who or what really decides. Take the example of a mosquito. The behaviour of a mosquito is unbelievable complex if we would try to reproduct it by engeneering. But, on the other hand, a mosquito has nothing which could be called brain. Yours and my computer is perhaps a million times more " smarter " and complex as the neuro-physiologic strucure of a mosquito. Who or what decides what a mosquito does, then? The given circumstances, moment by moment. The notion of a deciding entity in a field of cause and effect as a kind of software, created by an evolutional process, had incredible advantages and was a evolutional cornerstone. It made almost a further biological development or evolution unnecessary. Our brain hasn't changed genetically since approx. 60.000 years but we have been able to change circumstances in a socio-cultural evolution radically. We are becoming more and more independent in relation to the need of bio-genetic changes to face alternating requirements. My conclusion is that we keep on reacting towards as external experienced circumstances, unlike, but basically, like a mosquito, moment by moment. The underlying goal is to preserve, as intact as possible, our genetical information for further generations and we are beginning to be able to perform, if necessary, the required genetical changes by ourselves. The structure and notion of an ego and an universe experienced as outwardly, in which, an entity moves itself with the illusion of free will is an enormously efficient " software " . We just react and a little later we create or project, so to say, a world, a reality, around this decision. A good example is what happens when we take a glas of water to drink. The " mosquito-reaction " is the one responding to the need of fluids. The reality we create, is a " me " taking a glas of water. How does this happen? The tactil impulses reach our cortex by far later than the impulses reaching the visual cortex of a hand taking the glas of water but, we experience it simultaneously. The coordination and integration of this impulses doesn't happen in 3-dimensional space, in topologically definite room. We create a virtual space, in which the result of recognition of visual impulses, which came with the speed of light till our visual cortex, waits until the much more slower tactil and propioreceptive impulses have been processed. If we expand and analyze a little more this notion of a " virtual room " , where a software, more or less suddenly, created by an evolutional process out of biological conditions and circumstances, opened the door to a autoreflexive consciousnees, we could come to the conclusion that we are reaching the non-plus-ultra of any possible evolutional process and that corresponds almost to the comprehension of god, something, that doesn't need further updates and upgrades, beacuse it creates the reality it wants to have. At the end, nothin really happens! Laugh! ....to be continued (regarding " subconsciousness " ) >>To simply say we need do nothing, we don't have to want or decide is to ignore the way things happen. If that were true we could simply sit behind the steering wheel and the car would start by itself and get going. If that sounds ridiculous, it's no less so, to believe realization will happen by itself without the necessary steps. How do things happen, Pete? regards sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 Hi Sk, Yes I agree, 'unconscious' is a better word for it. Being just an aficionado of the field of Neurology, I'm lax in my terminology. We tend to exaggerate the scope of consciousness. In these circles, it's often regarded as the All behind appearances, when it might only be a puny candle in an infinite darkness. We know a hell lot more we are conscious of, and when this hidden knowledge surfaces, we regarded as intuition. As you know there is a peculiar kind of blindness caused by damage to the passways that connect the visual center to the frontal lobes. People suffering this condition are not aware of seeing forms or colors and can't identify any objects. Presented with a ball, they dont see it, but if you throw the ball at them they catch it. This is because the pathway that detects movement is different from the one leading to conscious seeing. Lower animals see in this way. They see without being aware of what they see. This is a very schematic and non-professional rendition. You can expand on it if you want. Thanks for the input, Pet I did enjoy your treatment of the subject, and look forward to read your continuation. Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <sk000005> wrote: > Nisargadatta , pete seesaw <seesaw1us> > wrote: > > > >>This doesn't mean that there was a decision to decide, or a > wanting to want, or an entity who did so. Wanting, rejecting, and > deciding happens subconsciously without will. > > > hmm, Pete! You could state this, if you would have direct access to > subconsciousness. A nice guess you wrote here and, kind of > freudianic, too. When you introduce " subconsciousness " we are on the > field of the psychoanalytical art. I would say the term " pre- > consciousness " , coined by freud, would fit better, here, in your > elaboration. Pre-consciousness as the freightroom for latent > memories of all kind of type, including the memory called self. > Subconsciousness, preconsciousness and even the concept > consciousness, in its relationship to subconsciousness, have no > definite anatomical nor neuro-hormonal correlate. They are > constructions, models for further discussion introduced by freud > approx. a century ago years to complement neurology for the > treatment of mentally ill persons. Neurology studies and recognices > different states of consciousness and *unconsciousness* in their > texture regarding morphological, biochemical and physiologic > components. Subconsciousness has, in replay to Sandeep's post (I > didn't understand quite well concerning its relevance), no neuro- > hormonal correlative. Even memory has no definite correlative > neither biochemical, morphologic nor physiologically. > > > My opinion is that of consciousness has a texture similar to the > software of a computer. We are able to project this software > apparently as apparent outwardly including us as agent, as entity > operating in a a virtual space with the illusive notion of free will. > > > >>Will is simply the recognition that a decision have been made and > the subsequent attribution of that decision to an entity. > > > That's what I tried to make plausible with the allegory of the > fridge. There is a discussion going on among scientist in AI > regarding who or what really decides. Take the example of a > mosquito. The behaviour of a mosquito is unbelievable complex if we > would try to reproduct it by engeneering. But, on the other hand, a > mosquito has nothing which could be called brain. Yours and my > computer is perhaps a million times more " smarter " and complex as > the neuro-physiologic strucure of a mosquito. Who or what decides > what a mosquito does, then? The given circumstances, moment by > moment. > > The notion of a deciding entity in a field of cause and effect as a > kind of software, created by an evolutional process, had incredible > advantages and was a evolutional cornerstone. It made almost a > further biological development or evolution unnecessary. Our brain > hasn't changed genetically since approx. 60.000 years but we have > been able to change circumstances in a socio-cultural evolution > radically. We are becoming more and more independent in relation to > the need of bio-genetic changes to face alternating requirements. > > > My conclusion is that we keep on reacting towards as external > experienced circumstances, unlike, but basically, like a mosquito, > moment by moment. The underlying goal is to preserve, as intact as > possible, our genetical information for further generations and we > are beginning to be able to perform, if necessary, the required > genetical changes by ourselves. > > > The structure and notion of an ego and an universe experienced as > outwardly, in which, an entity moves itself with the illusion of > free will is an enormously efficient " software " . We just react and a > little later we create or project, so to say, a world, a reality, > around this decision. A good example is what happens when we take a > glas of water to drink. The " mosquito-reaction " is the one > responding to the need of fluids. The reality we create, is a " me " > taking a glas of water. How does this happen? The tactil impulses > reach our cortex by far later than the impulses reaching the visual > cortex of a hand taking the glas of water but, we experience it > simultaneously. The coordination and integration of this impulses > doesn't happen in 3-dimensional space, in topologically definite > room. We create a virtual space, in which the result of recognition > of visual impulses, which came with the speed of light till our > visual cortex, waits until the much more slower tactil and > propioreceptive impulses have been processed. > > > If we expand and analyze a little more this notion of a " virtual > room " , where a software, more or less suddenly, created by an > evolutional process out of biological conditions and circumstances, > opened the door to a autoreflexive consciousnees, we could come to > the conclusion that we are reaching the non-plus-ultra of any > possible evolutional process and that corresponds almost to the > comprehension of god, something, that doesn't need further updates > and upgrades, beacuse it creates the reality it wants to have. > > > At the end, nothin really happens! Laugh! > > > ...to be continued (regarding " subconsciousness " ) >>To simply say we need do nothing, we don't have to want or decide > is to ignore the way things happen. If that were true we could > simply sit behind the steering wheel and the car would start by > itself and get going. If that sounds ridiculous, it's no less so, to > believe realization will happen by itself without the necessary > steps. > > > How do things happen, Pete? > > > regards > sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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