Guest guest Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Hello! I am new to this forum. The greatest work as Nisargatta states is done by not working. To me the word working may mean to strive against,to overcome something to achieve...achieve freedom. This may seem very plausible as the more the mind wants the greater it involves us and the farther it may carry us away from the desired goal. Does it mean also to stop all that WORKING for pleasures that gratify our senses. Does it mean to sit idle and do nothing or very minimal. Another question arises ...if I have to stop working...who stops working ...the mind ?the body?. Does it imply that if my mind stops working and so does my body then the " Greatest Work " could be done by/through " me " . How not to work??? Is there an effortless work? Work definitely is not worship and worship frees you from work? Is work really a word meaning activity to fulfill a desire? Any guessWORK? Os Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Ho Os, Welcome. Some two bits....... - " oldslave2002 " <ranawade <Nisargadatta > Friday, February 06, 2004 06:40 PM Greatest work is done by not working? > Hello! I am new to this forum. > The greatest work as Nisargatta states is done by not working. > To me the word working may mean to strive against,to overcome > something to achieve...achieve freedom. > This may seem very plausible as the more the mind wants the greater it involves us and the farther it may carry us away from >the desired goal. Is there an " us " apart from the mind? > > Does it mean also to stop all that WORKING for pleasures that gratify our senses. > Does it mean to sit idle and do nothing or very minimal. Os,.............neither can " you " remain idle, ...........neither can " you " do anything, whether it is towards gratification of senses or gratification of a deeply held spiritual objective. > > Another question arises ...if I have to stop working...who stops working ....the mind ?the body?. Does it imply that if my mind >stops working and so does my body then the " Greatest Work " could be done by/through " me " . LOL. Os,.................there is a manifest biological conditioned body-mind organism, which society has labeled " Os " (or whatever is your non-cyber name). This object has the attribute of sentience and thus is responsive to an arriving impacting input from the " external " environ. (Aka this set of squiggly signs appearing on your PC screen which is the impacting arriving input, while you sit in front of your PC right now) This input is sensed through the sensory organs and cognized by the conditioned object, ......during which a self-created " image " of the input is created by the prevailing-conditioning-in-the-moment........in the biological object, labeled " Os. " To this self created image of the input, the same conditioning-in-that-moment, " fashions " a response. The response could remain in the field of mentation, or it could further get externally actualized into a physical action, a set of actions constituting behaviour. The conditioning-in-the-moment,...........is not something etched in stone. The very " fashioned response " to the self created image of the arriving input,..............itself alters/ammends/changes the prevailing conditioning-in-the-moment. A dynamic loop. A Yin-Yang dance. The conditioning-in-the moment,............is both genetic in origin, as well is a result of the " impacts " , it receives during the organism's " life " This is essence of the hoopla that is happening, in the moment. Moment to moment to moment. What's it to do with you, anyway? > > How not to work??? > Is there an effortless work? Yes. When there is no sense of a stake with the functioning that is happening through " my " apparatus,.......in the moment. Moment to moment to moment. Effort is actually a sense of effort. > Work definitely is not worship and worship frees you from work? > Is work really a word meaning activity to fulfill a desire? The " usual " situation is that of the rooster. The rooster lies awake the whole night, fretting agonizing, anguishing, as to whether it will be able get up in time in the morning to crow the sun to rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Nisargadatta , sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > > Effort is actually a sense of effort. Excellent, San Deep. This is what I as trying to convey at advaitatoZen to Bill, Greg, and Dave. The doer is the sense of doing. Which brings the hesitation, the sense of responsibility, and guilt/pride combo in the results of actions. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Dear Sandeep, Thanks for the invaluable insight into this question. 2 things struck me... One.. If as you say that the dynamic loop of " Impacting sensory stimulus " to the " sensory apparatus with all its genitico-social ramifications " to the " platform of mentation " to the " predesigned response " holds true....then everything that I see in this world is distorted and perhaps bogus.Then this entire world is my creation...that is... the world that I live in is my age only...the world of which I alone am the centre...and all activities at the periphery you ,this,that..everything.However even if I am the creator of my world i still dont control it although i may be able to predict what i perhaps may do for each " arriving sensory packet " .So ...I must amend/alter or delete the system of variable cognition which i possess so that I may be able to ...do what? Second, Your statement " Effort is really a sense of effort " . i carried it in my head for 2 days but could not find any example in my day to day routine. Could you elaborate a little more?(but let me guess ....you want to suggest we are absolutely powerless?). Thanks, Os. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 - " oldslave2002 " <ranawade <Nisargadatta > Sunday, February 08, 2004 11:30 PM Re: Greatest work is done by not working? > Dear Sandeep, > Thanks for the invaluable insight into this question. > 2 things struck me... > > One.. > If as you say that the dynamic loop of " Impacting sensory stimulus " > to the " sensory apparatus with all its genitico-social ramifications " > to the " platform of mentation " to the " predesigned response " holds > true....then everything that I see in this world is distorted and > perhaps bogus. LOL Prefer to use the term conditioned. One hundred percent matter is one hundred percent idea. What " you " perceive to be physical reality is actually " your " cognitive construction of it. The mind is such that it can only deal with ideas. It is not possible for the mind to relate to anything other than ideas. So the great pot of gold at rainbow's end , which the usual spritual seeking chases...aka Reality,......all that the mind can ponder are its own ideas about reality. >Then this entire world is my creation...that is... the > world that I live in is my age only... Why? You cannot conceive what would be say 70 years old, even if you are only 35? In your dream, you create a couple of million years old Mount Everest and climb it, don't you? Or play tag with a loved grandfather. >the world of which I alone am the centre...and all activities at the periphery > you ,this,that..everything. It is not that you create the world. The apparent " cognizing subject " and the array of it's cognized objects, making up it's world, as the result of the attribute of the quality of sentience..... ......both the " cognizer-subject " and the " cognized object " ,........appear together, disappear together. Neither has an independent existential reality to itself. In the waking state,...............the " cognized world " and the " cognizer " exist together. In the dreaming state, the " cognized dreamed world " and the " dreaming-cognizer " exist together. In the state of deep-sleep, when even dreaming has ceased,..............both no longer exist. And both re-appear together, as the dreaming state or as the waking state. In actuality,... this disappearance and the re-appearance,.......is happening,.......in the moment,... every moment. The witnessing stratum, ...........of all this hoopla of appearing and disappearing,.....is.............. >However even if I am the creator of my world i still dont control it although i may be able to predict > what i perhaps may do for each " arriving sensory packet " .So ...I must amend/alter or delete the system of variable cognition >which i possess so that I may be able to ...do what? Whether it is the waking state or the dreaming state,...............choosing and thus amending, altering, deleting, accumulating,.......all this is happening, in the moment. Moment to moment to moment. Through,........ appropriately conditioned manifest objects, which acts as " instruments " of this functioning in the form of particular choosing/altering/ammedning/deleting/accumulating, ........in the moment. The particular choosing/altering,..............as fashioned by the innate conditioning-in-the-moment,..... prevailing in that instrument. Even this instrument, ...........the sentient conditioned biological body-mind complex,.....or the non-sentient object, aka a stone...........are not static entities. Even the flesh-blood object or the stony dude,.................are in a state of flux, in a state of change. Moment to moment to moment. Just like a river. There is nothing like a river,...........there is " rivering " . Thus,...........the billions and billions of apparently discrete and separated " functionings " , .........through...... apparently separated and discrete " fluxing " instruments of these " functionings " ,........... ........whether in the waking-state or dream-state or the deep-sleep state,.......... ............nuances of that One movement in the moment. And since this very saying so, on a cyber-based List,.......is nothing but a nuance of the same movement in the moment,... .....in the very articulation, in the very conveying,...... ........all that has happened is that a conceptualizing has occurred. For what is not a nuance of the movement,........for the movement to have a need to conceptualize and articulate/convey,.... that you are a nuance of the movement. > > Second, > Your statement " Effort is really a sense of effort " . > i carried it in my head for 2 days but could not find any example in > my day to day routine. Could you elaborate a little more?(but let me > guess ....you want to suggest we are absolutely powerless?). The agony of the rooster, who lies awake the whole night, anguishing whether it will get up in time in the morning, to crow the sun to rise. For it has evidence in it's roosting mnemonic cells,.......... that every time it has crowed, the sun has obeyed it's commands. Just for fun, invite you to visit and wander about at the Covenant sited at www.the-covenant.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 Hi! Sandeep. Read your post... So what happens in meditation?...do the scheme of events differ??? I mean all the smells,the flashes of light ,subjective senastions of upliftment or falling and all the vague imagery ,very typical to all meditators around the world.. does that also fall in the category of a " preconditioned reflex " to an aberration in our " cognitive apparatus " ?. Do the above mentioned " sensory cues " while in meditation mere aberrations too? Above all would I ever be able to see the clear sky as it is..without the clouds coming in the way... Os. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 - " oldslave2002 " <ranawade <Nisargadatta > Monday, February 09, 2004 11:50 PM Re: Greatest work is done by not working? > Hi! Sandeep. > > Read your post... > So what happens in meditation?...do the scheme of events differ??? > I mean all the smells,the flashes of light ,subjective senastions of > upliftment or falling and all the vague imagery ,very typical to all > meditators around the world.. does that also fall in the category of > a " preconditioned reflex " to an aberration in our " cognitive > apparatus " ?. Do the above mentioned " sensory cues " while in meditation > mere aberrations too? Any experience, no matter how profound or how profane,.........is a durational event in time, in the gestal of duality. Whether the duration is 5 minutes, 3 hours or a 1000 years, .... .....whether it is the experience of sinking your teeth into a luscious Pepproni Pizza with extra cheese, ..................or..............Samadhi,.............. Do not mean to suggest, that such song and dance do not teem within phenomenality. Or that meditation is useless (or useful) Meditation and the consequential states,...............are again nuances of that same one movement, in the moment, THROUGH appropriately conditioned apparatuses. As would be, .........another conditioned apparatus which sneers at all the meditation-sheditation and swears by, the path of Bhakti, offering as the lure,...... the ecstasy of Bhakti. As would be, the bulk of sentient objects, who firmly believe,.....spirituality is for losers, for those who could not make it in Life. All,.........nuances of that show, that Grand Drama. > > Above all would I ever be able to see the clear sky as it is..without > the clouds coming in the way... See the clouds, as the sky in movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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