Guest guest Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 Nisargadatta , rookielynn@x wrote: > >You can only observe WHAT HAS ALREADY > >HAPPENED. Understand? There is nothing to fear, except the fear that > >has already happened. Since everything has already happened, there is > >nothing to be afraid of, so fear is the grand cosmic illusion based > >on the idea of an individual doer. > > > >/AL > > YUMMMM!!!!! very very helpful!!!!! Was just yakking to someone about > anger...which seems to be fear based.....fear that this " I " might suffer > some injury or that 'I' might actually have some control over what > happens. Fear is pointless, anger then is pointless, just the " i " playing > out the drama (gee.....could use a new role or a new director maybe :-) > > TITP thanks in the past :-) > RL Yes, anger is because we think we or someone else will suffer in future because of something we or somebody else did. So this is fear of what the future will be like. I can tell you what the future will be like with 100% accuracy. The future is now. Only now. To be angry/afraid in the now is a vicious loop created in the now. There is only now. Also notice that fear and anger is about the past (the future is nothing but ideas/projections based on the past). Everything you are aware of except awareness itself is from the past, including your and other peoples bodies. Therefore the physical world is never real. The physical world is _always_ experience in the form of memories from the past, because the physical world _is_ memories from the past. Only consciousness itself as pure timeless awareness is alive now. Everything else is dead, because it has already happened, including your thoughts and feelings. This is so very obvious that everybody will eventually understand it. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 Nisargadatta , jacob mathan <jacmattvm> wrote: > Hi > Just joined the group, groping, trying to send a > message, in a few days maybe ok. Isnt it better to > observe than to preconcieve? Isnt it better to accept > than interfere? Isnt it better to be present than to > enquire? enlighten me please It is best to be fearless. Everything that happens has already happened except timeless pure awareness which is the only thing that is alive. To be fearless is to see the entire world including your body as a memory, because it _is_ only a memory. There is no physical reality now. What you experience now has already happened. Look at a star and what you see is not the star but the past. Look at your hand, and what you see is not a physical object existing now, but the past. Look at your own thoughts and feelings and notice that they too are only the past you see. Fear, as all feelings are also from the past being experienced as suffering in the present moment. Fear is the past in conflict with itself observed by you in the present moment. /AL > --- Scott Andersen <sga_email> wrote: > > > > Hi Anders, > > > > 1. Don't think, don't think about thinking, don't > > think about the thinker and what it is doing. > > > > 2. Just look, find out what looks. > > > > 3. Be that looking. > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > Scott. > > > > > > > > > > Better yet; observe yourself as an unmoving video > > camera observing a > > dead past. Observe that other people are having the > > same camera. Now, > > what can that which don't move do about a past it > > sees? The camera > > sees only the past, and the past cannot be changed. > > The accepting and > > non-accepting has already happened and is not any of > > your or mine > > doing of anything. How can an unmoving video camera > > do anything? How > > can your present awareness do anything? Your > > feelings and thoughts > > about doing things HAS ALREADY HAPPENED, and there > > is no " you " that > > can do anything about it. You can only observe WHAT > > HAS ALREADY > > HAPPENED. Understand? There is nothing to fear, > > except the fear that > > has already happened. Since everything has already > > happened, there is > > nothing to be afraid of, so fear is the grand cosmic > > illusion based > > on the idea of an individual doer. > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > ** > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to > > change your subscription, sign in with your ID > > and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " > > for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save > > Changes. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 - " jacob mathan " <jacmattvm <Nisargadatta > Friday, May 28, 2004 11:17 PM Re: Re: What's the difference ? > Hi > Just joined the group, groping, trying to send a > message, in a few days maybe ok. Isnt it better to > observe than to preconcieve? Isnt it better to accept > than interfere? Isnt it better to be present than to > enquire? enlighten me please With a prevailing sense of a something " better " than something " not-better " , ..........observing, acceptance, presence is absent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 > It is best to be fearless. Everything that happens has already > happened except timeless pure awareness which is the only thing that > is alive. To be fearless is to see the entire world including your > body as a memory, because it _is_ only a memory. There is no physical > reality now. What you experience now has already happened. Look at a > star and what you see is not the star but the past. Look at your > hand, and what you see is not a physical object existing now, but the > past. Look at your own thoughts and feelings and notice that they too > are only the past you see. Fear, as all feelings are also from the > past being experienced as suffering in the present moment. Fear is > the past in conflict with itself observed by you in the present > moment. Hej Anders! You speak about the present moment, the " now " and timeless pure awareness. Can you feaze these terms and juggle with them dialectically? Fear, I guess you speak about pathological manifestations of fear, is often the anxiety caused by the unknown and the alien. To be fearless can be sometimes a sign of dullness, don't you agree? To intelectualize fear is an evasion-maneuver, a kind of tergiversation. As Pete wrote, to put the concepts in line up to a possible north, isn't really a profound processing of a matter, and I add, surely not on a matter like fear. sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <raav1@m...> wrote: > > It is best to be fearless. Everything that happens has already > > happened except timeless pure awareness which is the only thing > that > > is alive. To be fearless is to see the entire world including your > > body as a memory, because it _is_ only a memory. There is no > physical > > reality now. What you experience now has already happened. Look at > a > > star and what you see is not the star but the past. Look at your > > hand, and what you see is not a physical object existing now, but > the > > past. Look at your own thoughts and feelings and notice that they > too > > are only the past you see. Fear, as all feelings are also from the > > past being experienced as suffering in the present moment. Fear is > > the past in conflict with itself observed by you in the present > > moment. > > > Hej Anders! > > > > You speak about the present moment, the " now " and timeless pure > awareness. Can you feaze these terms and juggle with them > dialectically? Fear, I guess you speak about pathological > manifestations of fear, is often the anxiety caused by the unknown > and the alien. To be fearless can be sometimes a sign of dullness, > don't you agree? To intelectualize fear is an evasion-maneuver, a > kind of tergiversation. As Pete wrote, to put the concepts in line > up to a possible north, isn't really a profound processing of a > matter, and I add, surely not on a matter like fear. > > > sk Hej sk! :-) The fear we experience when watching a thrilling movie is a part of the entertainment, and without this fear the experience would be dull. What I am talking about is the fear we believe to be " real " fear, for example the fear of making a fool of oneself, or to look bad in other peoples eyes, the fear of getting sick, getting old, of dying, of losing a job, one's reputation, one's memory, of going crazy, of losing family and friends, of not being able to do a good enough job, of being lonely, of being bored, of being hateful, of feeling shame and guilt, of not being kind enough, of not being supportive enough, of not being considerate enough, of being a social failure, fear about accidents, misfortune, crime, society, money, religion, wrong politics, bad news, e t c, e t c. This " real " fear is an illusion. There is no separate " you " able to do anything. There is no separate organization, group of people or individual person able to do anything. When the human mind becomes aware of a thought that thought has already been created, not by the individual, but by the Universe. Everyhing you see around you built by humans; buildings, cars, computers, clothes and food: none of these things has been created by individuals. The world is a total movement appearing in consciousness. What you are is the Totality in action in the form of a dead past observed in the present moment by awareness, the only thing with life. So, timeless pure awareness is what we all are. Only that which is not time can be able to observe time. When you look at another person it is only the past you see. When that other person looks at you it is only the past he or she sees. What you experience as your own body is only the past. Even your own thoughs and feelings are just the past you see. The physical world is just a memory in pure timeless awareness. The world has no separate existence of its own. The world is all Maya, inluding your body _and_ your thoughs and feelings. It is like pure consciousness is all there is in the form of an infinite indestructible Matrix. We are that Matrix itself. Now, when we _really_ see that the entire physical manifestation is nothing but a changing memory in pure consciousness, what then is fear? A total illusion! The intellect cannot see this. The intellect is only an automatic process inluding the idea of a separare " me " . The intellect is only needed as a bridge from animal form to realized being. The intellect can never do anything by itself, it just contains the _idea_ of being a separate doer. The intellect is being done by the Universe. There is no separare individual doers. And when this false idea melts away, then fear also melts away. Both are illusions. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 Thanks for the response Anders:-) What you write is what you experience at this moment and, on account of it, a reality I respect. Do you agree with me, when I say, that you are for yourself what you experience momentaneously? ....is there something more? sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <raav1@m...> wrote: > Thanks for the response Anders:-) What you write is what you > experience at this moment and, on account of it, a reality I > respect. Do you agree with me, when I say, that you are for yourself > what you experience momentaneously? > > > ...is there something more? > > > sk My present awareness is zero seconds away from me. The world including my body _and_ my intellect is not zero seconds away from me. :-) /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <raav1@m...> wrote: > > Thanks for the response Anders:-) What you write is what you > > experience at this moment and, on account of it, a reality I > > respect. Do you agree with me, when I say, that you are for > yourself > > what you experience momentaneously? > > > > > > ...is there something more? > > > > > > sk > > My present awareness is zero seconds away from me. The world > including my body _and_ my intellect is not zero seconds away from > me. :-) > > /AL Anders, all imaginable worlds, bodies and intellects and so on is what you are. It is you. Nothing is zero seconds away fom you...this projection, you call the world is not different to what you like to call timeless, pure awareness. You can't buy a parcel of awareness and reside on it, hoping the rest will come to you some day. Phenomenalty and Awareness are not two different things, they are not ^things^ at all. You are not a thing...a concept. The observer, the act of observation and the observed are " One " without limitations. Nothing can be owned, you are already all...nothing has never been, neither sterically nor chronologically, away from you...there is not even a " One " . All these nice speculations about time are just adjuvants, rethorical devices, dialectical crutches to overcome the indoctrinations, we, as westeners, have been victims of. To demolish the arrogancy of believing, we could, would be able someday, to know deeply, to understand profoundly something, by reason, rationality or even logical discernment. sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <raav1@m...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <raav1@m...> wrote: > > > > Thanks for the response Anders:-) What you write is what you > > > experience at this moment and, on account of it, a reality I > > > respect. Do you agree with me, when I say, that you are for > > yourself > > > what you experience momentaneously? > > > > > > > > > ...is there something more? > > > > > > > > > sk > > > > My present awareness is zero seconds away from me. The world > > including my body _and_ my intellect is not zero seconds away from > > me. :-) > > > > /AL > > > Anders, > > all imaginable worlds, bodies and intellects and so on is what you > are. It is you. Nothing is zero seconds away fom you...this > projection, you call the world is not different to what you like to > call timeless, pure awareness. You can't buy a parcel of awareness > and reside on it, hoping the rest will come to you some day. > Phenomenalty and Awareness are not two different things, they are > not ^things^ at all. You are not a thing...a concept. The observer, > the act of observation and the observed are " One " without > limitations. Nothing can be owned, you are already all...nothing has > never been, neither sterically nor chronologically, away from > you...there is not even a " One " . > All these nice speculations about time are just adjuvants, > rethorical devices, dialectical crutches to overcome the > indoctrinations, we, as westeners, have been victims of. To demolish > the arrogancy of believing, we could, would be able someday, to know > deeply, to understand profoundly something, by reason, rationality > or even logical discernment. > > > sk But there is the appearance of change, that cannot be denied, and that change goes from past to future. This change is clearly nothing we do, it happens. And in order to observe change there must be something which is not this change itself. So, there is at least the _appearance_ of separation because my present awareness does not move along with this change. My body is clearly a part of the change, but my consciousness is not a part of this change. Therefore my body and the world are not me, they only appear in me. :-) /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 > But there is the appearance of change, that cannot be denied, and > that change goes from past to future. This change is clearly nothing > we do, it happens. And in order to observe change there must be > something which is not this change itself. So, there is at least the > _appearance_ of separation because my present awareness does not move > along with this change. My body is clearly a part of the change, but > my consciousness is not a part of this change. Therefore my body and > the world are not me, they only appear in me. :-) Your consciousness moves and with it, everything. The Changeless, Awareness, Anatta, pure consciousness, eternity, logos, timeless awareness and so on...these terms are just words, concepts...philosophical crutches, approaches. The stillness you are looking for, doesn't know about limitations; it doesn't care about change or movements, past, present or future. You can't apprehend it intelectually but, you can fool yourself intelectually...you can't even experience it, but you can believe, that what you experience is more than a farce and you can try to fool others. There is no way out. You will be a prisoner as long as you think, that something can be achieved. You have lost, being borned to a senseless life full of stupid illusions about everything. Surrender! But, it seems you don't have even intelectually the capacity to do it. Everything is a lie, including what I write here. There is nothing, there was nothing...not even zero. Give up, simply! Forget about all this crap on spirituality...sit down, meditate! Do your work, eat, sleep, be kind and just wait patiently until you die. This world will not offer you more than what you already knew, when you entered it, on the contrary!, if you don't take care, you will condemn the day you were born. And, taking care, too. Renounce! More lifes will make things not better. Forget about all this crap about awareness, it's your ass that's on the line. Be like a panther and fight this miserable, abortive battle. Don't let others fool yourself and don't try to fool others with alleged spiritual or intellectual achievements. Be sincere to yourself, be happy and free. Help the next poor sucker on his one-way trip and pray for a calm death... I fucked up a time ago, once and for all, and, you can't imagine how liberating that is... LOve sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <raav1@m...> wrote: > > But there is the appearance of change, that cannot be denied, and > > that change goes from past to future. This change is clearly > nothing > > we do, it happens. And in order to observe change there must be > > something which is not this change itself. So, there is at least > the > > _appearance_ of separation because my present awareness does not > move > > along with this change. My body is clearly a part of the change, > but > > my consciousness is not a part of this change. Therefore my body > and > > the world are not me, they only appear in me. :-) > > > Your consciousness moves and with it, everything. The Changeless, > Awareness, Anatta, pure consciousness, eternity, logos, timeless > awareness and so on...these terms are just words, > concepts...philosophical crutches, approaches. The stillness you are > looking for, doesn't know about limitations; it doesn't care about > change or movements, past, present or future. You can't apprehend it > intelectually but, you can fool yourself intelectually...you can't > even experience it, but you can believe, that what you experience is > more than a farce and you can try to fool others. There is no way > out. You will be a prisoner as long as you think, that something can > be achieved. You have lost, being borned to a senseless life full of > stupid illusions about everything. Surrender! But, it seems you > don't have even intelectually the capacity to do it. Everything is a > lie, including what I write here. There is nothing, there was > nothing...not even zero. Give up, simply! Forget about all this crap > on spirituality...sit down, meditate! Do your work, eat, sleep, be > kind and just wait patiently until you die. This world will not > offer you more than what you already knew, when you entered it, on > the contrary!, if you don't take care, you will condemn the day you > were born. And, taking care, too. Renounce! More lifes will make > things not better. Forget about all this crap about awareness, it's > your ass that's on the line. Be like a panther and fight this > miserable, abortive battle. Don't let others fool yourself and don't > try to fool others with alleged spiritual or intellectual > achievements. Be sincere to yourself, be happy and free. Help the > next poor sucker on his one-way trip and pray for a calm death... > > > I fucked up a time ago, once and for all, and, you can't imagine how > liberating that is... > > > > LOve > sk I believe life is an automatic show. This means I don't need to do anything. In fact, it means that I _cannot_ do anything. So my way to ultimate liberation is not in my hands. :-) /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <raav1@m...> wrote: > > > But there is the appearance of change, that cannot be denied, and > > > that change goes from past to future. This change is clearly > > nothing > > > we do, it happens. And in order to observe change there must be > > > something which is not this change itself. So, there is at least > > the > > > _appearance_ of separation because my present awareness does not > > move > > > along with this change. My body is clearly a part of the change, > > but > > > my consciousness is not a part of this change. Therefore my body > > and > > > the world are not me, they only appear in me. :-) > > > > > > Your consciousness moves and with it, everything. The Changeless, > > Awareness, Anatta, pure consciousness, eternity, logos, timeless > > awareness and so on...these terms are just words, > > concepts...philosophical crutches, approaches. The stillness you > are > > looking for, doesn't know about limitations; it doesn't care about > > change or movements, past, present or future. You can't apprehend > it > > intelectually but, you can fool yourself intelectually...you can't > > even experience it, but you can believe, that what you experience > is > > more than a farce and you can try to fool others. There is no way > > out. You will be a prisoner as long as you think, that something > can > > be achieved. You have lost, being borned to a senseless life full > of > > stupid illusions about everything. Surrender! But, it seems you > > don't have even intelectually the capacity to do it. Everything is > a > > lie, including what I write here. There is nothing, there was > > nothing...not even zero. Give up, simply! Forget about all this > crap > > on spirituality...sit down, meditate! Do your work, eat, sleep, be > > kind and just wait patiently until you die. This world will not > > offer you more than what you already knew, when you entered it, on > > the contrary!, if you don't take care, you will condemn the day you > > were born. And, taking care, too. Renounce! More lifes will make > > things not better. Forget about all this crap about awareness, it's > > your ass that's on the line. Be like a panther and fight this > > miserable, abortive battle. Don't let others fool yourself and > don't > > try to fool others with alleged spiritual or intellectual > > achievements. Be sincere to yourself, be happy and free. Help the > > next poor sucker on his one-way trip and pray for a calm death... > > > > > > I fucked up a time ago, once and for all, and, you can't imagine > how > > liberating that is... > > > > > > > > LOve > > sk > > I believe life is an automatic show. This means I don't need to do > anything. In fact, it means that I _cannot_ do anything. > > So my way to ultimate liberation is not in my hands. :-) > > /AL Anders, It is only and exclusively in your hands...to realize, that nothing which already, at all times and ever has been inherently free, needs liberation. sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <raav1@m...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " sk000005 " <raav1@m...> wrote: > > > > But there is the appearance of change, that cannot be denied, > and > > > > that change goes from past to future. This change is clearly > > > nothing > > > > we do, it happens. And in order to observe change there must > be > > > > something which is not this change itself. So, there is at > least > > > the > > > > _appearance_ of separation because my present awareness does > not > > > move > > > > along with this change. My body is clearly a part of the > change, > > > but > > > > my consciousness is not a part of this change. Therefore my > body > > > and > > > > the world are not me, they only appear in me. :-) > > > > > > > > > Your consciousness moves and with it, everything. The > Changeless, > > > Awareness, Anatta, pure consciousness, eternity, logos, timeless > > > awareness and so on...these terms are just words, > > > concepts...philosophical crutches, approaches. The stillness you > > are > > > looking for, doesn't know about limitations; it doesn't care > about > > > change or movements, past, present or future. You can't > apprehend > > it > > > intelectually but, you can fool yourself intelectually...you > can't > > > even experience it, but you can believe, that what you > experience > > is > > > more than a farce and you can try to fool others. There is no > way > > > out. You will be a prisoner as long as you think, that something > > can > > > be achieved. You have lost, being borned to a senseless life > full > > of > > > stupid illusions about everything. Surrender! But, it seems you > > > don't have even intelectually the capacity to do it. Everything > is > > a > > > lie, including what I write here. There is nothing, there was > > > nothing...not even zero. Give up, simply! Forget about all this > > crap > > > on spirituality...sit down, meditate! Do your work, eat, sleep, > be > > > kind and just wait patiently until you die. This world will not > > > offer you more than what you already knew, when you entered it, > on > > > the contrary!, if you don't take care, you will condemn the day > you > > > were born. And, taking care, too. Renounce! More lifes will make > > > things not better. Forget about all this crap about awareness, > it's > > > your ass that's on the line. Be like a panther and fight this > > > miserable, abortive battle. Don't let others fool yourself and > > don't > > > try to fool others with alleged spiritual or intellectual > > > achievements. Be sincere to yourself, be happy and free. Help > the > > > next poor sucker on his one-way trip and pray for a calm death... > > > > > > > > > I fucked up a time ago, once and for all, and, you can't imagine > > how > > > liberating that is... > > > > > > > > > > > > LOve > > > sk > > > > I believe life is an automatic show. This means I don't need to do > > anything. In fact, it means that I _cannot_ do anything. > > > > So my way to ultimate liberation is not in my hands. :-) > > > > /AL > > > Anders, > > > > It is only and exclusively in your hands...to realize, that nothing > which already, at all times and ever has been inherently free, needs > liberation. > > > sk Yes, my consciousness must the free observer itself, because only my consciousness is of the present moment. The physical world is always the past. The past cannot create the present moment, because the present moment is always one step in front of the past. So what is real is only consciousness. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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