New Dialectic/ Bill

May 31, 2004

Bill: Don't you see that you are articulating from concepts >you have

of Anders? What do you know of the origination of the >verbage

attributed to an Anders? Do you know that " Anders " is not the

>code name for an AI machine at MIT?

>Someone uses the term " conscousness " and you say " Ahhh!

Gotcha! Using a concept! " ? Is that what you are doing?

>If so, kinda sophmoric in my view. Nisargadatta talked a great

>deal about consciousness. How is what Anders is saying different

>from what Niz was saying?

Bill

P: OK, Bill, since you are aging fast and your memory is not what it used to

be, let me help you out here, budd.

My conversation with Al started when he alluded to fear out of the blue. When

I asked if we was in fear, he admitted to it. See below

>P: " Yes, Al, I have no disagreement with that, but does that help

you

> > > with your fear? Are you not still worrying in the present about

> > > results in an imagine future?

> >

> >Al: I can see my entire past as it is; a thought formation in my

mind.

> > This thought-cloud exists in this moment and is thus not a real

> past.

> > It is a memory trace existing now. From this thought-cloud

> > Projections into the future are created. These projections are

also

> > just a thought formation. So, there is no past or future in a

real

> > sense. But I still have worry and fear in me, but I can see that

> > these feelings are perhaps not needed. So I guess they may melt

> away

> > leaving the present moment as my foundation. :-)

P: So you see why I said, he is just wrap in conceptuality. Although

Nis used concepts, we all do. He never said he was in fear.

There is another clue about Al, the way he repeats certain key

phrases like " there is cero separation between you and your consciousness. "

His fixation that all is the past seems like

a door his trying to materialize in his cell wall by repeating it like a

mantra.

There is another clue the way he writes has the stench of dead

conceptuality. As I said, we all use concepts, but with some people the way

concepts are

strung is not mechanical, it's a subtle dance around the unknown. And those

people who have

the knack can almost detect the shape of the invisible by the movements of

the concepts around it. It's something akin as seeing hawks soar with a thermos

you can't se the thermos but the beauty of the gliding reveals its shape. Your

writing has sometimes that grace, so does Arvind's, Sk's and a few others.

It's not that what he writes is not correct, but precisely because

it is correct it can become a trap. He needs to meditate and free

his mind, he needs to find stillness without concepts.

Pete

May 31, 2004

Thank you for the cordial explanation, Pete. I do appreciate it.

I haven't been following the posts here much for awhile, so

excuse me if I jump in out of context.

BTW, you say some pretty interesting things, like:

And those people who have the knack can almost

detect the shape of the invisible by the movements

of the concepts around it. It's something akin as

seeing hawks soar with a thermos you can't se the

thermos but the beauty of the gliding reveals its

shape.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

I was just reflecting today -- after a little Aha! while lying in

bed as I watched a " concept " collapse -- that a concept is not

something that can be " seen " per se. Only if one is very

attuned can one come to sense one at work " behind the

scenes " . It will seem like " the way things are " until it is

realized to be a concept at work. And the kind of concept I

am talking about here is not the run-of-the-mill kind, it is

something that is embedded in perception itself. It won't

even have a name (such as " belief " etc.). To learn

to " smell one out " takes a developed attunement akin to

the kind of sensitivity and patience that an expert bird watcher

must have to learn.

Ahh... speaking of birds!

Bill

-

Pedsie2

nisargadatta

Monday, May 31, 2004 10:52 AM

New Dialectic/ Bill

Bill: Don't you see that you are articulating from concepts >you have

of Anders? What do you know of the origination of the >verbage

attributed to an Anders? Do you know that " Anders " is not the

>code name for an AI machine at MIT?

>Someone uses the term " conscousness " and you say " Ahhh!

Gotcha! Using a concept! " ? Is that what you are doing?

>If so, kinda sophmoric in my view. Nisargadatta talked a great

>deal about consciousness. How is what Anders is saying different

>from what Niz was saying?

Bill

P: OK, Bill, since you are aging fast and your memory is not what it used to

be, let me help you out here, budd.

My conversation with Al started when he alluded to fear out of the blue. When

I asked if we was in fear, he admitted to it. See below

>P: " Yes, Al, I have no disagreement with that, but does that help

you

> > > with your fear? Are you not still worrying in the present about

> > > results in an imagine future?

> >

> >Al: I can see my entire past as it is; a thought formation in my

mind.

> > This thought-cloud exists in this moment and is thus not a real

> past.

> > It is a memory trace existing now. From this thought-cloud

> > Projections into the future are created. These projections are

also

> > just a thought formation. So, there is no past or future in a

real

> > sense. But I still have worry and fear in me, but I can see that

> > these feelings are perhaps not needed. So I guess they may melt

> away

> > leaving the present moment as my foundation. :-)

P: So you see why I said, he is just wrap in conceptuality. Although

Nis used concepts, we all do. He never said he was in fear.

There is another clue about Al, the way he repeats certain key

phrases like " there is cero separation between you and your consciousness. "

His fixation that all is the past seems like

a door his trying to materialize in his cell wall by repeating it like a

mantra.

There is another clue the way he writes has the stench of dead

conceptuality. As I said, we all use concepts, but with some people the way

concepts are

strung is not mechanical, it's a subtle dance around the unknown. And those

people who have

the knack can almost detect the shape of the invisible by the movements of

the concepts around it. It's something akin as seeing hawks soar with a thermos

you can't se the thermos but the beauty of the gliding reveals its shape. Your

writing has sometimes that grace, so does Arvind's, Sk's and a few others.

It's not that what he writes is not correct, but precisely because

it is correct it can become a trap. He needs to meditate and free

his mind, he needs to find stillness without concepts.

Pete

June 1, 2004

> I was just reflecting today -- after a little Aha! while lying in

> bed as I watched a " concept " collapse -- that a concept is not

> something that can be " seen " per se. Only if one is very

> attuned can one come to sense one at work " behind the

> scenes " . It will seem like " the way things are " until it is

> realized to be a concept at work. And the kind of concept I

> am talking about here is not the run-of-the-mill kind, it is

> something that is embedded in perception itself. It won't

> even have a name (such as " belief " etc.). To learn

> to " smell one out " takes a developed attunement akin to

> the kind of sensitivity and patience that an expert bird watcher

> must have to learn.

Excellent, Bill also the hint to Cervantes. Don Quijote is worth a

read and a re-read..to my taste, more than Shakespeare or Goethe.

What you have written here is pure Zen. You are on the roll in your

last messages. Experiencing a kensho or, just having a good hand on

the last pictorial creations? Patience, yes! But, how difficult can

be the thing with humility...speaking for myself, needless to say.

Isn't humility not the best measure...am I able to admit and accept,

deep in the heart, really and with all consequences that I have lost

this fight...am I able to confess that I was a coward, hiding my self

behind words?...would I be able to " waste " my life sitting in front

of a wall for the rest of my days?...Would I be able to leave all the

things I love? Could I say today Goodbye to all the ones I love? If I

only could drop a single concept, I would be a free man. It isn´t

about dropping ideas and concepts in the plural form...it is only one

concept and that one is, as you have very well written, something

that is embedded in perception itself...inaccesible by words and even

thoughts...to drop, even, " I am " .

sk

June 1, 2004

Isn't humility not the best measure...

>>>>>>>>>>

I think it is not a measure for oneself.

The measure for oneself is that if one is measuring then

one has not measured up!

If I

only could drop a single concept, I would be a free man. It isn´t

about dropping ideas and concepts in the plural form...it is only one

concept...

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Interesting...

I was reflecting on this very thing yesterday...

in connection with this same post you are responding to

because it seems to me that there is no end to the

" concepts embedded in perception " that progressively

become undone

but it also seems there is some *point* at which one

realizes one is free

and reflecting now again on this it seems that " point "

is the transition beyond which one is no longer

" measuring " oneself.

Bill

-

sk000005

Nisargadatta

Monday, May 31, 2004 11:28 PM

Re: New Dialectic/ Bill