Guest guest Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Hola ((Thanks Jessica for your advice, I have contacted you per email)) What does that exactly mean: " ...The guy on antidepressants whose casualties populate the internet like cherries on a tree... " ? thanks fox *** -------- check out adi da > samraj... he's got his own island in fiji where the chicks there > worship him like a god... he's got it going on... > > > > yours > > danananda Sure -- the guy on antidepressants whose casualties populate the internet like cherries on a tree. The guy who railed against narcissism in order to dominate all around him, and exempted himself from such scrutiny by calling himself various capitalized names. Sure, that's gonna work. Not. :-) -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 dan??? how can u say that??? adi da samraj, the ruchira avatar, is the promised god-man & the divine world teacher!!! if u don't believe me, then, just ask him... > > -------- > check out adi da > > samraj... he's got his own island in fiji where the chicks there > > worship him like a god... he's got it going on... > > > > > > > > yours > > > > danananda > > Sure -- the guy on antidepressants whose casualties > populate the internet like cherries on a tree. > > The guy who railed against narcissism in order to > dominate all around him, and exempted > himself from such scrutiny > by calling himself various capitalized names. > > Sure, that's gonna work. > > Not. :-) > > -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " <feel@f...> wrote: > Hola > > ((Thanks Jessica for your advice, I have contacted you per email)) > > > What does that exactly mean: > " ...The guy on antidepressants whose casualties populate the > internet like cherries on a tree... " ? > > thanks > fox > *** It means there have been numerous reports from exdevotees about his reliance on antidepressant medication as he got older, along with increasing isolation from them, demands from presents from them, insistence that they memorize the names he has given himself in different phases of his life, as well as memorize the meanings he gave those names. As far as casualties goes -- exdevotees have talked about a process of recovering from a situation in which devotion was required, in which day to day activities were controlled, in which they were told to consume alcohol to the point of drunkenness, or to perform sex acts with each other in front of Adi Da, or times when he would insist on the right to any kind of sex act he wanted with any woman in his following, and that husbands had no right to object to this. After reading numerous such reports, a pattern emerges that follows the typical " mind control " scenario of a cult -- that is, isolate followers from normal social inputs such as family and friends who " don't believe, " insist on special status as " guru " which allows control of others activities, the normal decisions that a person makes for him or herself, deprive members of sleep and insist they listen to long instructional monologues, claim that rigid adherence to certain beliefs is necessary for " enlightenment " or " going to heaven " (depending on the type of cult) -- and certainly a key belief will be " I am your necessary guru (or spiritual parent) and it will be necessary to institute a child/parent relationship with me, including prizing me, doing what I say without question " and so on. And yes, that kind of scenario, common as it is, typically results in casualties -- just as growing up in a dysfunctional family run by an abusive and controlling father-figure (or mother figure) does. It seems likely that such cults attract those who either experienced emotional abandonment or abuse as a typical feature in their family of origin, and quite possible that the guru or leader is trying to fix early childhood feelings of deprivation by constructing a situation where he or she is the ultimate parent figure who can control the environment and can demand and coerce adoration, attention, and adherence. By the way, Adi Da fled to Bali under the threat of a suit from a ten year old girl that she was told to drink liquor, then psychologically coerced and manipulated into taking off her clothes with a group of adults who had taken off their clothes. I've heard from others that other acts had been recommended to this girl and were part of the law suit, don't know much about that part of it. That was years ago, when the retreat to Bali first happened. Interestingly, it was at that point that Ken Wilber reassessed his previously enthusiastic endorsement of Adi Da as world teacher. I remember Wilber saying he was thrown off by that retreat, wondering why a world teacher would seek that kind of seclusion from the people he had previously wanted to bring truth to. At that point, Wilber also had received enough information about weird practices in the commune, so that he qualified his original unconditional endorsement of Adi Da as an enlightened being and teacher to saying that he still thought Adi Da's thoughts and writings were important and profound, but his teaching methods were too extreme to be recommended for anyone who wasn't thoroughly familiar ahead of time with what to expect. I've run across two or three lists for exdevotees, full of sharing information about harm they had to recover from. It reminded me somewhat of a young woman I knew years ago, whom I had assisted to leave the Sun Myung Moon group (the " Moonies " ) -- which didn't involve those kinds of sexual antics, but did involve sleep deprivation, insistence on control, and other typical cult-like things. It's interesting that people can " come out of the trance " after years of being involved in it and submitting to it. It's like some healthy energy of self-care and sanity kicks in, usually accompanied by thoughts such as, " I've had enough of this, whatever it takes to leave, I'm going to go through. " Usually, cults and cult-like groups make it very difficult to leave, either overtly, or covertly through threats like, " you're giving up your only chance for enlightenment (or salvation). " Of course, it may mean giving up all the friends you now have in the world, virtually your " family " -- possibly having no money, not sure where to turn for assistance, possibly having been indoctrinated into mistrust of the rest of the world as well, and even of one's biological family. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " <danananda2004> wrote: > dan??? how can u say that??? adi da samraj, the ruchira avatar, is > the promised god-man & the divine world teacher!!! > > if u don't believe me, then, just ask him... > > Yes, I have. He told me He is the greatest spiritual adept who ever lived. I love that self-reference you mentioned: " The Promised God-Man. " I like when He referred to Himself as " The Brilliant, " too. And the stuff about Him " outshining " everything else, which is why you need to have a relationship with him -- and all the names he came up with, and ways to capitalize references to Himself in his texts. It's great stuff. You gotta love it :-) Not that He didn't provide some excellent teachings, especially earlier in his career. He did, and I say that with sincerity. Many of them teachings about Narcissus. Now that's truly funny! -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 not the " brilliant " ... it was the " bright " ... he referred to it as the " bright " ... he taught about the narcissus paradigm that humans r locked into... the irony of it IS " truly funny " , as u said... heres a guy who teaches his devotees to do self-enquiry - " avoiding relationship? " - as a meditation... & at the same time, there he is, isolating himself ever more deeply on an island, cut off from the rest of the world... u can't see adi da unless u take all these courses & jump thru all kinds of hoops & prove your love for him & bow down & worship him & be a member of adidam for years & years... he says he is the greatest guru who ever lived or ever shall live... he has written dozens of books promoting himself as the greatest man who ever lived... greater than christ, than buddha, than krishna... than ramana... it's " truly funny " ... yet, sad, too... ....because like u said, he has some understanding, some realization.. but it kind of went off in the wrong direction... oh, well... he aint the 1st guy to come down the pike claiming to be god & then crash landing some way, some how... adi da might want to include the myth of icarus along with narcissus in his teaching, if u know what i mean... besides, anyhow, dan... i'm god... what can adi da or any body give you??? not a dam thing... they can inspire you... they can point u in a direction... but they can't give you any thing... nobody owns anything to give... i do nisarga yoga... i go into myself... this body, this brain, this thought, these words, this discussion... none of it belongs to me... i am not a person... i am not even a thing... what's the guru got that i aint got??? nothing... the sat guru is within... real gurus don't promote themselves... they don't ask for money for their teaching... they just be... if people wanna give em stuff, that's up to them... it's got nothing to do w/ the guru... real gurus don't put other gurus down... did nisargadatta ever put other gurus down? did ramana? no... did they ever say they were the greatest guru that ever lived? no... u know what i'm saying, dan? yours danananda Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " > <danananda2004> wrote: > > dan??? how can u say that??? adi da samraj, the ruchira avatar, is > > the promised god-man & the divine world teacher!!! > > > > if u don't believe me, then, just ask him... > > > > > > Yes, I have. > > He told me He is the greatest spiritual adept > who ever lived. > > I love that self-reference you mentioned: " The Promised God-Man. " > > I like when He referred to Himself as " The Brilliant, " too. > > And the stuff about Him " outshining " everything else, > which is why you need to have a relationship with him -- > and all the names he came up with, and ways to capitalize > references to Himself in his texts. > > It's great stuff. > > You gotta love it :-) > > Not that He didn't provide some excellent teachings, > especially earlier in his career. He did, and I say > that with sincerity. > > Many of them teachings about Narcissus. > > Now that's truly funny! > > -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " <danananda2004> wrote: > not the " brilliant " ... it was the " bright " ... he referred to it as > the " bright " ... Yup. That's it. Just as funny that way, even funnier, in fact! > he taught about the narcissus paradigm that humans r locked into... > the irony of it IS " truly funny " , as u said... heres a guy who > teaches his devotees to do self-enquiry - " avoiding relationship? " - Yes. LOL. > as a meditation... & at the same time, there he is, isolating himself > ever more deeply on an island, cut off from the rest of the world... > u can't see adi da unless u take all these courses & jump thru all > kinds of hoops & prove your love for him & bow down & worship him & > be a member of adidam for years & years... he says he is the greatest > guru who ever lived or ever shall live... he has written dozens of > books promoting himself as the greatest man who ever lived... greater > than christ, than buddha, than krishna... than ramana... it's " truly > funny " ... yet, sad, too... Very much so. In fact, his life is a pointer, just not the pointer he intended it to be. > ...because like u said, he has some understanding, some realization.. > but it kind of went off in the wrong direction... Yes. It very much went off in the self direction, the grandiose self that is beyond any self. > oh, well... he aint the 1st guy to come down the pike claiming to be > god & then crash landing some way, some how... adi da might want to > include the myth of icarus along with narcissus in his teaching, if u > know what i mean... Quite so. > besides, anyhow, dan... i'm god... what can adi da or any body give > you??? not a dam thing... they can inspire you... they can point u in > a direction... but they can't give you any thing... nobody owns > anything to give... I would only be trying to give you something, if I secretly had something to get. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any investment in people taking me to be someone with something to give them. The investment becomes clear in the demandingness -- some of which you alluded to above. > i do nisarga yoga... i go into myself... this body, this brain, this > thought, these words, this discussion... none of it belongs to me... > i am not a person... i am not even a thing... what's the guru got > that i aint got??? > > nothing... > > the sat guru is within... What happens when you have no within and no without? What's to practice now? > real gurus don't promote themselves... they don't ask for money for > their teaching... they just be... if people wanna give em stuff, > that's up to them... it's got nothing to do w/ the guru... I don't see this as a battle of the good gurus and the bad gurus. To me, it's much more like there's a battle between being in the trance, and waking up. And since any guru or teaching involves a trance, you're going to have to wake up on your own. So, to me, a good teacher won't even try to be a guru, in the sense of indoctrinating a parent-child relation -- won't support a trance like that. A good teacher will respect your ability to wake up, may challenge you to find your strength, but will most of all respect life for already always providing such challenge on all sides -- for one who has open eyes. > real gurus don't put other gurus down... did nisargadatta ever put > other gurus down? did ramana? no... did they ever say they were the > greatest guru that ever lived? no... I don't know. I don't even know if they cared whether or not anyone saw them as a guru. Probably not. It does seem odd when someone says, " I am a guru, I am the best of all time, you would want to live with me and serve me if you had a clue about how important I am. " But it may not seem odd to someone who feels really lost. It may feel reassuring, at least at the beginning. > u know what i'm saying, dan? Yes. The guru, if you want to call it that, is right here, right now. There is no other guru. Someone like N. or R. seem to me to be ackowledging that, not pointing to their body as a special thing which you should want to be near, or to serve. If you are ready to die to yourself, you will be taken. But you won't be making that happen. If you are thinking you'll figure out how to kill yourself, or you're looking for someone else to make you ready, or to kill you, you aren't ready. Be well, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 " I would only be trying to give you something, if I secretly had something to get. " good one! great line, dan... speaks volumes " What happens when you have no within and no without? " " What's to practice now? " the practice is where u realize that nothing u realize is u... it's nisarga yoga... u know? like what it says in the blurb on the nisargadatta ! forum homepage... that's some good stuff... that's the practice... within u & without u is referring to the relative side of things... it's where the relative meets the absolute... it is referring to the body-mind nexus, time-space modality... always remember: just because it's an illusion doesn't mean it isn't real... it's that whole samsara is nirvana & nirvana is samsara routine... i mean... whaddya gonna do? i just kick back & watch shiva dance... " I don't see this as a battle of the good gurus and the bad gurus. " nah... it's more like 'my guru is better than your guru'... or, 'my guru can kick your guru's ass' routine... very childish, immature... " To me, it's much more like there's a battle between being in the trance, and waking up. And since any guru or teaching involves a trance, you're going to have to wake up on your own. So, to me, a good teacher won't even try to be a guru, in > the sense of indoctrinating a parent-child relation -- won't > support a trance like that. A good teacher will respect > your ability to wake up, may challenge you to find your strength, but will most of all respect life for already always providing such challenge on all sides -- for one who has open eyes. " I don't even know if they cared whether or > not anyone saw them as a guru. Probably not. " It does seem odd when someone says, " I am a guru, I am the > best of all time, you would want to live with me and > serve me if you had a clue about how important I am. But it may not seem odd to someone who feels really lost. It may feel reassuring, at least at the beginning. " exactly... any guru who is out there hawking his or her wares & promoting themselves as guru is not satguru ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Maharaj: There are no distinctive marks of gnana. Only ignorance can be recognised, not gnana. Nor does a gnani claim to be something special. All those who proclaim their own greatness and uniqueness are not gnanis. They are mistaking some unusual development for realisation. The gnani shows no tendency to proclaim himself to be a gnani. He considers himself to be perfectly normal, true to his real nature. Proclaiming oneself to be an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity is a clear sign of ignorance. " (`I Am That` Ch. 43, p. 193) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ " The guru, if you want to call it that, is right here, right now. There is no other guru. " i concur... " Someone like N. or R. seem to me to be ackowledging that, > not pointing to their body as a special thing which you > should want to be near, or to serve. > > " If you are ready to die to yourself, > you will be taken. But you won't > be making that happen. > > " If you are thinking you'll figure out > how to kill yourself, or you're looking for someone else to > make you ready, or to kill you, > you aren't ready. " good point... alot of people r looking for some way to kill themselves or to get someone else to kill them... everybody is looking for something... sweet dreams r made of this... who am i to disagree? i'll tell ya one thing, tho... that nisarga yoga is fun... i get lotsa joy out of it... sometimes it seems to well up from down inside of the body... an ecstatic bliss state... it's sweet... once u taste it, your hooked... u know what i'm talkin' about... your bliss junkie danananda Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " > <danananda2004> wrote: > > not the " brilliant " ... it was the " bright " ... he referred to it as > > the " bright " ... > > Yup. That's it. Just as funny that way, even funnier, in fact! > > > he taught about the narcissus paradigm that humans r locked into... > > the irony of it IS " truly funny " , as u said... heres a guy who > > teaches his devotees to do self-enquiry - " avoiding relationship? " - > > Yes. LOL. > > > as a meditation... & at the same time, there he is, isolating > himself > > ever more deeply on an island, cut off from the rest of the > world... > > u can't see adi da unless u take all these courses & jump thru all > > kinds of hoops & prove your love for him & bow down & worship him & > > be a member of adidam for years & years... he says he is the > greatest > > guru who ever lived or ever shall live... he has written dozens of > > books promoting himself as the greatest man who ever lived... > greater > > than christ, than buddha, than krishna... than ramana... > it's " truly > > funny " ... yet, sad, too... > > Very much so. In fact, his life is a pointer, just > not the pointer he intended it to be. > > > ...because like u said, he has some understanding, some > realization.. > > but it kind of went off in the wrong direction... > > Yes. It very much went off in the self direction, > the grandiose self that is beyond any self. > > > oh, well... he aint the 1st guy to come down the pike claiming to > be > > god & then crash landing some way, some how... adi da might want to > > include the myth of icarus along with narcissus in his teaching, if > u > > know what i mean... > > Quite so. > > > besides, anyhow, dan... i'm god... what can adi da or any body give > > you??? not a dam thing... they can inspire you... they can point u > in > > a direction... but they can't give you any thing... nobody owns > > anything to give... > > I would only be trying to give you something, if I secretly > had something to get. Otherwise, there wouldn't be > any investment in people taking me to be someone with something > to give them. > > The investment becomes clear in the demandingness -- some of > which you alluded to above. > > > i do nisarga yoga... i go into myself... this body, this brain, > this > > thought, these words, this discussion... none of it belongs to > me... > > i am not a person... i am not even a thing... what's the guru got > > that i aint got??? > > > > nothing... > > > > the sat guru is within... > > What happens when you have no within and no without? > > What's to practice now? > > > real gurus don't promote themselves... they don't ask for money for > > their teaching... they just be... if people wanna give em stuff, > > that's up to them... it's got nothing to do w/ the guru... > > I don't see this as a battle of the good gurus and the bad > gurus. > > To me, it's much more like there's a battle between > being in the trance, and waking up. > > And since any guru or teaching involves a trance, you're going > to have to wake up on your own. > > So, to me, a good teacher won't even try to be a guru, in > the sense of indoctrinating a parent-child relation -- won't > support a trance like that. A good teacher will respect > your ability to wake up, may challenge you to find your > strength, but will most of all respect life for already > always providing such challenge on all sides -- for one > who has open eyes. > > > real gurus don't put other gurus down... did nisargadatta ever put > > other gurus down? did ramana? no... did they ever say they were the > > greatest guru that ever lived? no... > > I don't know. I don't even know if they cared whether or > not anyone saw them as a guru. Probably not. > > It does seem odd when someone says, " I am a guru, I am the > best of all time, you would want to live with me and > serve me if you had a clue about how important I am. " > > But it may not seem odd to someone who feels really lost. > It may feel reassuring, at least at the beginning. > > > u know what i'm saying, dan? > > Yes. > > The guru, if you want to call it that, is right here, right now. > > There is no other guru. > > Someone like N. or R. seem to me to be ackowledging that, > not pointing to their body as a special thing which you > should want to be near, or to serve. > > If you are ready to die to yourself, > you will be taken. But you won't > be making that happen. > > If you are thinking you'll figure out > how to kill yourself, or you're looking for someone else to > make you ready, or to kill you, > you aren't ready. > > Be well, > Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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