Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > Awareness is nothing. What awareness is aware of is everything. How > can awareness be nothing? The answer is that awareness is no-thing. > And what awareness is aware of is every-thing. Awareness is aware of > everything now, so the future has already happened, and we are > looking at the future now, infinitely fast. But what has already > happened is infinite so this looking at the future will go on > forever. So infinitely fast looking into the future is what we call > time passing. When did awareness as no-thing begin looking at ever- > thing? The answer is that awareness began looking NOW. :-) > > /AL Yes, right on. And because what awareness is looking at, isn't other, none of what is happening and is to happen, is other. Thus, what is happening, isn't happening. What is to happen has already happened, and isn't. To be is not to be, what is yet to be - is. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > Awareness is nothing. What awareness is aware of is everything. How > > can awareness be nothing? The answer is that awareness is no- thing. > > And what awareness is aware of is every-thing. Awareness is aware > of > > everything now, so the future has already happened, and we are > > looking at the future now, infinitely fast. But what has already > > happened is infinite so this looking at the future will go on > > forever. So infinitely fast looking into the future is what we call > > time passing. When did awareness as no-thing begin looking at ever- > > thing? The answer is that awareness began looking NOW. :-) > > > > /AL > > Yes, right on. > > And because what awareness is looking at, isn't other, > none of what is happening and is to happen, is other. > > Thus, what is happening, isn't happening. > > What is to happen has already happened, and isn't. > > To be is not to be, what is yet to be - is. > > -- Dan To be is. It is pointless to say as I did that the future has already happened. It is more correct to say that the future is happening NOW. :-) /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Look inside yourself , and you will see the light (true , awareness,etc). > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman >Nisargadatta Nisargadatta Subject: > Re: Anders. What is timeless being? Thu, 17 Jun >2004 16:41:07 -0000 > >Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > >Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > Awareness is >nothing. What awareness is aware of is everything. How > > can awareness be >nothing? The answer is that awareness is no- thing. > > And what awareness >is aware of is every-thing. Awareness is aware > of > > everything now, so >the future has already happened, and we are > > looking at the future now, >infinitely fast. But what has already > > happened is infinite so this >looking at the future will go on > > forever. So infinitely fast looking >into the future is what we call > > time passing. When did awareness as >no-thing begin looking at ever- > > thing? The answer is that awareness >began looking NOW. :-) > > > > /AL > > Yes, right on. > > And because what >awareness is looking at, isn't other, > none of what is happening and is >to happen, is other. > > Thus, what is happening, isn't happening. > > What >is to happen has already happened, and isn't. > > To be is not to be, what >is yet to be - is. > > -- Dan > >To be is. It is pointless to say as I did that the future has already >happened. It is more correct to say that the future is happening NOW. :-) > >/AL > _______________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ANDRES VARA " <andresvara@h...> wrote: > > Look inside yourself , and you will see the light (true , awareness,etc). Thanks Andres, I will practice this. I feel that peace, joy and love must first arise from one's inner being and then one will love everyone and everything without exception. To my ego, this sounds like a silly statement (almost embarrassing), but I feel something else behind all this that keeps nagging me. /AL > > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > >Nisargadatta Nisargadatta Subject: > > Re: Anders. What is timeless being? Thu, 17 Jun > >2004 16:41:07 -0000 > > > >Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > >Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > Awareness is > >nothing. What awareness is aware of is everything. How > > can awareness be > >nothing? The answer is that awareness is no- thing. > > And what awareness > >is aware of is every-thing. Awareness is aware > of > > everything now, so > >the future has already happened, and we are > > looking at the future now, > >infinitely fast. But what has already > > happened is infinite so this > >looking at the future will go on > > forever. So infinitely fast looking > >into the future is what we call > > time passing. When did awareness as > >no-thing begin looking at ever- > > thing? The answer is that awareness > >began looking NOW. :-) > > > > /AL > > Yes, right on. > > And because what > >awareness is looking at, isn't other, > none of what is happening and is > >to happen, is other. > > Thus, what is happening, isn't happening. > > What > >is to happen has already happened, and isn't. > > To be is not to be, what > >is yet to be - is. > > -- Dan > > > >To be is. It is pointless to say as I did that the future has already > >happened. It is more correct to say that the future is happening NOW. :-) > > > >/AL > > > > _______________ > MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > To be is. It is pointless to say as I did that the future has already > happened. It is more correct to say that the future is happening > NOW. :-) > > /AL Yes. Therefore, everything already happened, now. Therefore, nothing is happening now. There is only *this.* -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > To be is. It is pointless to say as I did that the future has > already > > happened. It is more correct to say that the future is happening > > NOW. :-) > > > > /AL > > Yes. > > Therefore, everything already happened, now. > > Therefore, nothing is happening now. > > There is only *this.* > > -- Dan There is something happening now. Life is happening now. There is no creation or destruction going on, but there is change going on. The laser of consciousness shines on the timeless DVD record that contains everything, and the material world appear on the screen of consciousness. Just as a standard DVD record does not change itself when being played, timeless reality remains unchanged at all times. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > To be is. It is pointless to say as I did that the future has > > already > > > happened. It is more correct to say that the future is happening > > > NOW. :-) > > > > > > /AL > > > > Yes. > > > > Therefore, everything already happened, now. > > > > Therefore, nothing is happening now. > > > > There is only *this.* > > > > -- Dan > > There is something happening now. Life is happening now. There is no > creation or destruction going on, but there is change going on. Sounds like nonsense to me. How can you observe change to happen, if you haven't been created? > The > laser of consciousness shines on the timeless DVD record that > contains everything, and the material world appear on the screen of > consciousness. Just a pretty picture you've created for yourself. You're sounding like someone in love with the pictures he constructs. Yet, how will you know/be the nonself-centered truth until there is no anchoring for you in self-constructed pictures? > Just as a standard DVD record does not change itself > when being played, timeless reality remains unchanged at all times. You yourself are a changing being, and therefore not in a position to know anything unchanging. What you're doing is constructing a picture for yourself of something unchanging, in an attempt to give yourself some kind of existence as a knower of the unchanging. Where the self is not in any way, shape, or form, as a center, there is no need or desire to know or express anything permanent, because there is not the anxiety about transience that leads one to seek permanence or to be permanent. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > To be is. It is pointless to say as I did that the future has > > > already > > > > happened. It is more correct to say that the future is > happening > > > > NOW. :-) > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > Therefore, everything already happened, now. > > > > > > Therefore, nothing is happening now. > > > > > > There is only *this.* > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > There is something happening now. Life is happening now. There is > no > > creation or destruction going on, but there is change going on. > > Sounds like nonsense to me. > > How can you observe change to happen, if you haven't been created? Think of everything in existence as a timeless landscape. Julian Barbour call this timeless landscape 'Platonia'. When awareness touches a " point " in this landscape the world at a given moment in time appear spontaneously, inluding a body, thoughts, memories e t c. > > > The > > laser of consciousness shines on the timeless DVD record that > > contains everything, and the material world appear on the screen of > > consciousness. > > Just a pretty picture you've created for yourself. It's just a simple metaphor for Platonia, a timeless configuration space. > > You're sounding like someone in love with the pictures he > constructs. > > Yet, how will you know/be the nonself-centered truth until there > is no anchoring for you in self-constructed pictures? When the idea " I am separare " disappears, then oneness is realized I suspect. > > > Just as a standard DVD record does not change itself > > when being played, timeless reality remains unchanged at all times. > > You yourself are a changing being, and therefore not > in a position to know anything unchanging. My awareness never takes a single step away from the timeless now. It is only memories and sensations that moves. Awareness does not move. Awareness is forever now. > > What you're doing is constructing a picture for yourself > of something unchanging, in an attempt to give yourself > some kind of existence as a knower of the unchanging. > > Where the self is not in any way, shape, or form, as a center, > there is no need or desire to know or express anything permanent, > because there is not the anxiety about transience that > leads one to seek permanence or to be permanent. > > -- Dan " You are unconditioned and changeless, formless and immovable, unfathomable awareness, unperturbable: so hold to nothing but consciousness. " -- Ashtavakra Gita 1.17 /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > My awareness never takes a single step away from the timeless now. It > is only memories and sensations that moves. Awareness does not move. > Awareness is forever now. Hi AL/ How could you possibly now this? Nothing but a thought construct. > > > > > What you're doing is constructing a picture for yourself > > of something unchanging, in an attempt to give yourself > > some kind of existence as a knower of the unchanging. > > > > Where the self is not in any way, shape, or form, as a center, > > there is no need or desire to know or express anything permanent, > > because there is not the anxiety about transience that > > leads one to seek permanence or to be permanent. > > > > -- Dan > > " You are unconditioned and changeless, formless and immovable, > unfathomable awareness, unperturbable: so hold to nothing but > consciousness. " -- Ashtavakra Gita 1.17 > > /AL Too bad it's not talking about " you " ! Sure sounds good tho, huh. Permanence, unperturbable. This kind of Harlequin Romance stuff appeals to those looking for a way out of what appears to be a messy life. Rollin in Samsara, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > My awareness never takes a single step away from the timeless now. > It > > is only memories and sensations that moves. Awareness does not > move. > > Awareness is forever now. > > Hi AL/ > > How could you possibly now this? Nothing but a thought construct. Try this experiment: Look at the room where you are sitting. A picture of the room comes through your eyes and hits the visual cortex and the an image appear in your consciousness. Your consciousness is aware of the image. This is awareness. So simple that we often miss it. Check out: http://www.headless.org/English/movies.htm > > > > > > > > > What you're doing is constructing a picture for yourself > > > of something unchanging, in an attempt to give yourself > > > some kind of existence as a knower of the unchanging. > > > > > > Where the self is not in any way, shape, or form, as a center, > > > there is no need or desire to know or express anything > permanent, > > > because there is not the anxiety about transience that > > > leads one to seek permanence or to be permanent. > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > " You are unconditioned and changeless, formless and immovable, > > unfathomable awareness, unperturbable: so hold to nothing but > > consciousness. " -- Ashtavakra Gita 1.17 > > > > /AL > > Too bad it's not talking about " you " ! Sure sounds good tho, huh. > Permanence, unperturbable. This kind of Harlequin Romance stuff > appeals to those looking for a way out of what appears to be a messy > life. > > Rollin in Samsara, > Joe My awareness is timelessly now, that is a fact. But if this awareness is still there when my body dies I don't know. But right now, I am timeless awareness aware of my body/thoughts/feelings and the material world. How can I say that my awareness is timelessly now? The answer is that my awareness, my capacity for observing things and not the things themselves (body, thoughts, feelings, memories e t c) is never away from the now. My awareness (and of course everybody's awareness) is always fixed in the now. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > How could you possibly now this? Nothing but a thought construct. > > Try this experiment: Look at the room where you are sitting. A > picture of the room comes through your eyes and hits the visual > cortex and the an image appear in your consciousness. Your > consciousness is aware of the image. This is awareness. So simple > that we often miss it. > > Check out: http://www.headless.org/English/movies.htm How do you know? Where or what is this consciousness? You talk like it's separate from the object. You assume an object out there which is being reflected and appears in something called consciousness. But any sense of separation or idea of consciousness is just a flux, an arising. You're trying to stand on solid ground w this theory, but it crumbles every second. > > My awareness is timelessly now, that is a fact. But if this awareness > is still there when my body dies I don't know. But right now, I am > timeless awareness aware of my body/thoughts/feelings and the > material world. Sounds like there's a something/nothing called 'awareness' and then there are objects passing through. Is this separation really in evidence? Or is the idea of continuity, the idea of this thing called awareness just thought projecting? Joe > > How can I say that my awareness is timelessly now? The answer is that > my awareness, my capacity for observing things and not the things > themselves (body, thoughts, feelings, memories e t c) is never away > from the now. My awareness (and of course everybody's awareness) is > always fixed in the now. > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > How could you possibly now this? Nothing but a thought construct. > > > > Try this experiment: Look at the room where you are sitting. A > > picture of the room comes through your eyes and hits the visual > > cortex and the an image appear in your consciousness. Your > > consciousness is aware of the image. This is awareness. So simple > > that we often miss it. > > > > Check out: http://www.headless.org/English/movies.htm > > How do you know? Where or what is this consciousness? You talk like > it's separate from the object. You assume an object out there which > is being reflected and appears in something called consciousness. > > But any sense of separation or idea of consciousness is just a flux, > an arising. You're trying to stand on solid ground w this theory, but > it crumbles every second. Are you self-aware? Of course you are. That self-awareness is awareness. There is no theory here. The fact that " I am " cannot be denied. Nor can it be denied that this " I am " is now and only now. You can deny the God exists, but can you deny that you exist? So there is no question about this fact. In fact, it is the only fact that cannot be denied. :-) > > > > > > My awareness is timelessly now, that is a fact. But if this > awareness > > is still there when my body dies I don't know. But right now, I am > > timeless awareness aware of my body/thoughts/feelings and the > > material world. > > Sounds like there's a something/nothing called 'awareness' and then > there are objects passing through. Is this separation really in > evidence? There is a relation between the observer and the observed so they are one, but the observer is zero seconds away from the present moment, and the observed is more than zero seconds " away " from the present moment. Everything being observed by awareness is always only the past. Everything observed is already dead. Only awareness is alive in the present moment. > > Or is the idea of continuity, the idea of this thing called awareness > just thought projecting? That which is aware of the thought is awareness. Thoughts pass in time, while awareness is always that which in relation to thoughts does not move. Awareness is always in the now. Can you deny that there is something being aware of thoughts? Look into what is being aware of thoughts. What is the observer of the thoughts. What is the observer of the images created in the visual cortex in the brain? And is this observer or 'observing' anytime away from the now? This is consciousness. I am not sure that consciousness will be there when the body dies, but I am sure that I am self-aware now and that this state of being self-aware is now and only now. /AL > > Joe > > > > > > How can I say that my awareness is timelessly now? The answer is > that > > my awareness, my capacity for observing things and not the things > > themselves (body, thoughts, feelings, memories e t c) is never away > > from the now. My awareness (and of course everybody's awareness) is > > always fixed in the now. > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > How could you possibly now this? Nothing but a thought construct. > > > > Try this experiment: Look at the room where you are sitting. A > > picture of the room comes through your eyes and hits the visual > > cortex and the an image appear in your consciousness. Your > > consciousness is aware of the image. This is awareness. So simple > > that we often miss it. > > > > Check out: http://www.headless.org/English/movies.htm > > How do you know? Where or what is this consciousness? You talk like > it's separate from the object. You assume an object out there which > is being reflected and appears in something called consciousness. > > But any sense of separation or idea of consciousness is just a flux, > an arising. You're trying to stand on solid ground w this theory, but > it crumbles every second. The fact of being self-aware is no theory! > > > > > > My awareness is timelessly now, that is a fact. But if this > awareness > > is still there when my body dies I don't know. But right now, I am > > timeless awareness aware of my body/thoughts/feelings and the > > material world. > > Sounds like there's a something/nothing called 'awareness' and then > there are objects passing through. Is this separation really in > evidence? > > Or is the idea of continuity, the idea of this thing called awareness > just thought projecting? The thought *about* awareness is just a thought. That which is *aware* of thoughts is awareness. To say " I think, therefore I am " is a misconception. What is the observer, the awareness of thinking " I think, therefore I am " ? What is the awareness of feelings? What is being aware of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling? Look at that which is aware of thoughts. Try this: Think about something, and then notice that you know that you are thinking about something. This is awareness of the thought process itself. /AL > > Joe > > > > > > How can I say that my awareness is timelessly now? The answer is > that > > my awareness, my capacity for observing things and not the things > > themselves (body, thoughts, feelings, memories e t c) is never away > > from the now. My awareness (and of course everybody's awareness) is > > always fixed in the now. > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Think of everything in existence as a timeless landscape. Why? So I can believe that my thought construct can give a true rendition of reality? No thanks, I'll pass. :-) > Julian > Barbour call this timeless landscape 'Platonia'. When awareness > touches a " point " in this landscape the world at a given moment in > time appear spontaneously, inluding a body, thoughts, memories e t c. Getting lost in one's thought constructions is as much a useless self-involvement as drug addiction. > > > The > > > laser of consciousness shines on the timeless DVD record that > > > contains everything, and the material world appear on the screen > of > > > consciousness. > > > > Just a pretty picture you've created for yourself. > > It's just a simple metaphor for Platonia, a timeless configuration > space. A metaphor is an image. No image can present the imageless. Look into what an image is, how it's constructed, how it dissolves. Now, you are clear on the limits of any image, any metaphor. > > You're sounding like someone in love with the pictures he > > constructs. > > > > Yet, how will you know/be the nonself-centered truth until there > > is no anchoring for you in self-constructed pictures? > > When the idea " I am separare " disappears, then oneness is realized I > suspect. Any idea that appears, disappears. There's no special idea that is some kind of key and which should disappear so as to provide a realization. There's no such thing as any idea that appeared without disappearing. Now. > > > Just as a standard DVD record does not change itself > > > when being played, timeless reality remains unchanged at all > times. > > > > You yourself are a changing being, and therefore not > > in a position to know anything unchanging. > > My awareness never takes a single step away from the timeless now. It > is only memories and sensations that moves. Awareness does not move. > Awareness is forever now. Those are just more ideas you're holding onto, as you paint pretty pictures. Which only distracts you from noticing that any idea arising, dissolves. Immediately. > > What you're doing is constructing a picture for yourself > > of something unchanging, in an attempt to give yourself > > some kind of existence as a knower of the unchanging. > > > > Where the self is not in any way, shape, or form, as a center, > > there is no need or desire to know or express anything permanent, > > because there is not the anxiety about transience that > > leads one to seek permanence or to be permanent. > > > > -- Dan > > " You are unconditioned and changeless, formless and immovable, > unfathomable awareness, unperturbable: so hold to nothing but > consciousness. " -- Ashtavakra Gita 1.17 " I take my stand where there is nothing -- not even the idea of nothing. " -- Nisargadatta Maharaj " Truth will not be found in any quote. " -- Theo Sauros Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > My awareness never takes a single step away from the timeless > now. > > It > > > is only memories and sensations that moves. Awareness does not > > move. > > > Awareness is forever now. > > > > Hi AL/ > > > > How could you possibly now this? Nothing but a thought construct. > > Try this experiment: Look at the room where you are sitting. A > picture of the room comes through your eyes and hits the visual > cortex and the an image appear in your consciousness. Your > consciousness is aware of the image. This is awareness. So simple > that we often miss it. > > Check out: http://www.headless.org/English/movies.htm Try this experiment: Be aware of the one who is aware that consciousness receives an image. Now, be aware of the one who is aware of that. Now, be aware of the infinite regress set up by your assumptions about reality. Now, drop all unnecessary assumptions that construct an infinite regress. Nothing to hold onto -- not even nothing, not even " no holding " ! -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > Or is the idea of continuity, the idea of this thing called awareness > just thought projecting? > > Joe Yes, exactly. It requires the idea of continuity, which requires the idea of a continuing knowing-creature. The image of a permanent consciousness is just another way to establish an imaginary security for the constructed image of the continuing knowing-creature. Which falls apart now, this moment, as there is clarity that construction and deconstruction infer and require one another. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > To say " I think, therefore I am " is a misconception. What is the > observer, the awareness of thinking " I think, therefore I am " ? What > is the awareness of feelings? What is being aware of seeing, hearing, > touching, tasting, smelling? > > Look at that which is aware of thoughts. > > Try this: Think about something, and then notice that you know that > you are thinking about something. This is awareness of the thought > process itself. > > /AL You're caught in an infinite regress of your own making, without any ability to be aware of the trap that your self is constructing as itself. It's calling this infinitely regressing trap " awareness being aware of awareness. " It's a place for the self-sense to attempt being established as its own " fact. " Another way to attempt to hold self -- the pernicious spiritually-oriented trap in which the attempt itself can be perpetually denied by pretending to be an unmoving permanent consciousness. An individual whose self-trap involves material things or experiences at least may be able to see through that trap by realizing that anything material decomposes. How much more pernicious is the spiritual trap, in which an idea-image is pretended to have an absolute status, and then identified as self? -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 > Try this: Think about something, and then notice that you know that > you are thinking about something. This is awareness of the thought > process itself. > > /AL Or: " Try this: Think about something, and then notice that you are *trying* something. This is awareness of the trying process itself. " Or: Type a word, then notice that you are typing something. This is awareness of the typing process itself. Or: Type a word, then notice that you are noticing something. This is awareness of the noticing process itself. Can you notice that you are noticing something? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Are you self-aware? Of course you are. That self-awareness is > awareness. There is no theory here. The fact that " I am " cannot be > denied. Nor can it be denied that this " I am " is now and only now. > You can deny the God exists, but can you deny that you exist? So > there is no question about this fact. In fact, it is the only fact > that cannot be denied. :-) I would say, the " I am " is a thought. " Existence " is also a thought. There is this-whatever-now. No way to say what it is, as that thought which arises cannot point to or capture it. > There is a relation between the observer and the observed so they are > one, but the observer is zero seconds away from the present moment, > and the observed is more than zero seconds " away " from the present > moment. Everything being observed by awareness is always only the > past. Everything observed is already dead. Only awareness is alive in > the present moment. If they are one, there is no relation! And if there is one, there is two. " Zero seconds " is meaningless. Then it's not away from it. To me it seems you're seeing a split, a duality and trying to cover it up with some fancy talk or 'observer and observed being one yet they're related' and 'zero seconds' stuff. > That which is aware of the thought is awareness. Thoughts pass in > time, while awareness is always that which in relation to thoughts > does not move. Awareness is always in the now. Can you deny that > there is something being aware of thoughts? I have no idea. I know where you're coming from, but positing something aware of thoughts is like an extra thought, an extra appendage. There's just awareness, but I might as well say there is just Java or there is just Monkey. There's no way to say what's here. See ya, Joe > > Look into what is being aware of thoughts. What is the observer of > the thoughts. What is the observer of the images created in the > visual cortex in the brain? And is this observer or 'observing' > anytime away from the now? This is consciousness. I am not sure that > consciousness will be there when the body dies, but I am sure that I > am self-aware now and that this state of being self-aware is now and > only now. > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Think of everything in existence as a timeless landscape. > > Why? So I can believe that my thought construct can > give a true rendition of reality? No thanks, I'll pass. :-) Because that could be the next step in science. I think it is worth giving it a thought. But that's just me. > > > Julian > > Barbour call this timeless landscape 'Platonia'. When awareness > > touches a " point " in this landscape the world at a given moment in > > time appear spontaneously, inluding a body, thoughts, memories e t > c. > > Getting lost in one's thought constructions is as much > a useless self-involvement as drug addiction. Eckhart Tolle said that the human condition is " lost in thought " . I tend to agree. :-) > > > > > The > > > > laser of consciousness shines on the timeless DVD record that > > > > contains everything, and the material world appear on the > screen > > of > > > > consciousness. > > > > > > Just a pretty picture you've created for yourself. > > > > It's just a simple metaphor for Platonia, a timeless configuration > > space. > > A metaphor is an image. No image can present the imageless. > > Look into what an image is, how it's constructed, how it > dissolves. Now, you are clear on the limits of any image, > any metaphor. That's right. True freedom is probably found beyond thinking. > > > > You're sounding like someone in love with the pictures he > > > constructs. > > > > > > Yet, how will you know/be the nonself-centered truth until there > > > is no anchoring for you in self-constructed pictures? > > > > When the idea " I am separare " disappears, then oneness is realized > I > > suspect. > > Any idea that appears, disappears. There's no special idea > that is some kind of key and which should disappear > so as to provide a realization. > > There's no such thing as any idea that appeared without > disappearing. Now. But some ideas linger on. For example, " I am the doer " seems to be firmly established in most people. > > > > > Just as a standard DVD record does not change itself > > > > when being played, timeless reality remains unchanged at all > > times. > > > > > > You yourself are a changing being, and therefore not > > > in a position to know anything unchanging. > > > > My awareness never takes a single step away from the timeless now. > It > > is only memories and sensations that moves. Awareness does not > move. > > Awareness is forever now. > > Those are just more ideas you're holding onto, as you paint > pretty pictures. Which only distracts you from noticing > that any idea arising, dissolves. Immediately. Awareness is not an idea. > > > > What you're doing is constructing a picture for yourself > > > of something unchanging, in an attempt to give yourself > > > some kind of existence as a knower of the unchanging. > > > > > > Where the self is not in any way, shape, or form, as a center, > > > there is no need or desire to know or express anything > permanent, > > > because there is not the anxiety about transience that > > > leads one to seek permanence or to be permanent. > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > " You are unconditioned and changeless, formless and immovable, > > unfathomable awareness, unperturbable: so hold to nothing but > > consciousness. " -- Ashtavakra Gita 1.17 > > " I take my stand where there is nothing -- not even the idea > of nothing. " -- Nisargadatta Maharaj > > " Truth will not be found in any quote. " -- Theo Sauros But " Truth will not be found in any quote. " is itself a quote, so is this statement not true? Then, if this statement is not the truth, maybe the truth can be found in a quote? ;-) /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > My awareness never takes a single step away from the timeless > > now. > > > It > > > > is only memories and sensations that moves. Awareness does not > > > move. > > > > Awareness is forever now. > > > > > > Hi AL/ > > > > > > How could you possibly now this? Nothing but a thought construct. > > > > Try this experiment: Look at the room where you are sitting. A > > picture of the room comes through your eyes and hits the visual > > cortex and the an image appear in your consciousness. Your > > consciousness is aware of the image. This is awareness. So simple > > that we often miss it. > > > > Check out: http://www.headless.org/English/movies.htm > > Try this experiment: > > Be aware of the one who is aware that consciousness receives > an image. > > Now, be aware of the one who is aware of that. > > Now, be aware of the infinite regress set up by your > assumptions about reality. > > Now, drop all unnecessary assumptions that construct > an infinite regress. > > Nothing to hold onto -- not even nothing, not even " no holding " ! > > -- Dan The regress stops when one realizes that thoughts are that which is being observed, not the observer itself. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > To say " I think, therefore I am " is a misconception. What is the > > observer, the awareness of thinking " I think, therefore I am " ? What > > is the awareness of feelings? What is being aware of seeing, > hearing, > > touching, tasting, smelling? > > > > Look at that which is aware of thoughts. > > > > Try this: Think about something, and then notice that you know that > > you are thinking about something. This is awareness of the thought > > process itself. > > > > /AL > > You're caught in an infinite regress of your own making, > without any ability to be aware of the trap that > your self is constructing as itself. > > It's calling this infinitely regressing > trap " awareness being aware of awareness. " > > It's a place for the self-sense to attempt being > established as its own " fact. " > > Another way to attempt to hold self -- the > pernicious spiritually-oriented trap > in which the attempt itself can be perpetually > denied by pretending to be an unmoving permanent > consciousness. > > An individual whose self-trap involves material things > or experiences at least may be able to see through that trap by > realizing that anything material decomposes. > > How much more pernicious is the spiritual trap, in which > an idea-image is pretended to have an absolute status, > and then identified as self? > > -- Dan Pretending to be an unmoving permanent consciousness is a thought and that is not timeless awareness. One can see one's whole intellect as a thinking/feeling process. The awareness of this process as a process could lead to liberation. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Bill Rishel " <plexus@a...> wrote: > > Try this: Think about something, and then notice that you know that > > you are thinking about something. This is awareness of the thought > > process itself. > > > > /AL > > Or: > " Try this: Think about something, and then notice that > you are *trying* something. This is awareness of the trying process > itself. " > > Or: > Type a word, then notice that you are typing something. This is > awareness of the typing process itself. > > Or: > Type a word, then notice that you are noticing something. This is > awareness of the noticing process itself. > > Can you notice that you are noticing something? > > Bill The noticing happens in timeless awareness, and that cannot be noticed because it is that in which noticing happens. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Are you self-aware? Of course you are. That self-awareness is > > awareness. There is no theory here. The fact that " I am " cannot be > > denied. Nor can it be denied that this " I am " is now and only now. > > You can deny the God exists, but can you deny that you exist? So > > there is no question about this fact. In fact, it is the only fact > > that cannot be denied. :-) > > > I would say, the " I am " is a thought. " Existence " is also a thought. > There is this-whatever-now. No way to say what it is, as that thought > which arises cannot point to or capture it. Look at something in the room where you are, and while looking at this object try to think at the same time. Thought is not all there is. Thought is just a process being experienced. > > > There is a relation between the observer and the observed so they > are > > one, but the observer is zero seconds away from the present moment, > > and the observed is more than zero seconds " away " from the present > > moment. Everything being observed by awareness is always only the > > past. Everything observed is already dead. Only awareness is alive > in > > the present moment. > > If they are one, there is no relation! And if there is one, there is > two. " Zero seconds " is meaningless. Then it's not away from it. To me > it seems you're seeing a split, a duality and trying to cover it up > with some fancy talk or 'observer and observed being one yet they're > related' and 'zero seconds' stuff. There is that which can be measured, for example a thoughts can be measured against a scale of bad-neutral-good thought. A potato can be measured in many way. But awareness cannot be measured. Both the measurable and the unmeasurable are connected, so in that sense they are one. > > > > That which is aware of the thought is awareness. Thoughts pass in > > time, while awareness is always that which in relation to thoughts > > does not move. Awareness is always in the now. Can you deny that > > there is something being aware of thoughts? > > I have no idea. I know where you're coming from, but positing > something aware of thoughts is like an extra thought, an extra > appendage. There's just awareness, but I might as well say there is > just Java or there is just Monkey. There's no way to say what's here. > > See ya, > Joe I see awareness as the pure observer that cannot be measured. /AL > > > > > > > Look into what is being aware of thoughts. What is the observer of > > the thoughts. What is the observer of the images created in the > > visual cortex in the brain? And is this observer or 'observing' > > anytime away from the now? This is consciousness. I am not sure > that > > consciousness will be there when the body dies, but I am sure that > I > > am self-aware now and that this state of being self-aware is now > and > > only now. > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Look at something in the room where you are, and while looking at > this object try to think at the same time. Thought is not all there > is. Thought is just a process being experienced. Yes, I know. And nothing can be said about it. > > There is that which can be measured, for example a thoughts can be > measured against a scale of bad-neutral-good thought. Not really. Any measurement would itself be another thought. No thoughts ever meet or connect. > > I see awareness as the pure observer that cannot be measured. Cool. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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