Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Hola altogether! I just read the following from Nisarga: " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and pleasures. I am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer of the body?!? fox *** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " <feel@f...> wrote: > Hola altogether! > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and pleasures. I > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer of the > body?!? > > fox > *** I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and the world. Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. Awareness is what we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We are not separate beings. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Anders, There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is also no awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness are identical. You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but neither you nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the non- exsitence of awareness are identical. Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " <feel@f...> > wrote: > > Hola altogether! > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and pleasures. > I > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer of the > > body?!? > > > > fox > > *** > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and the world. > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. Awareness is what > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We are not > separate beings. > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Anders, > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is also no > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness are > identical. > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but neither you > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the non- > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > Werner What I mean by awareness is the simple fact of being self-aware. The more you go into this awareness the more it becomes obvious that this awareness is the Source that is what is alive. The world is appearing in this awareness as a projection without any life or substance of itself. I don't exist as an object. No one is an object. I exist as a unique point in Totality. A point is nothing in itself. I suspect that is why many mystics have said: " I am nothing " . /AL > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " <feel@f...> > > wrote: > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and > pleasures. > > I > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer of the > > > body?!? > > > > > > fox > > > *** > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and the > world. > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. Awareness is > what > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We are not > > separate beings. > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Anders, You are the unborn, you never were born, you never existed, you never will exist and therefore you never will die. What you think is awareness and all that mystical nonsense is just Maya, products of your brain. And that brain one day will disappear and with it all your happy-go-lucky romance with " Source " , " awareness " and all that spiritual movie you just are stuck in. Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > Anders, > > > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is also no > > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness are > > identical. > > > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but neither you > > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the non- > > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > > > Werner > > What I mean by awareness is the simple fact of being self-aware. The > more you go into this awareness the more it becomes obvious that this > awareness is the Source that is what is alive. The world is appearing > in this awareness as a projection without any life or substance of > itself. I don't exist as an object. No one is an object. I exist as a > unique point in Totality. A point is nothing in itself. I suspect > that is why many mystics have said: " I am nothing " . > > /AL > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " > <feel@f...> > > > wrote: > > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and > > pleasures. > > > I > > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer of > the > > > > body?!? > > > > > > > > fox > > > > *** > > > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and the > > world. > > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. Awareness is > > what > > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We are not > > > separate beings. > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 by positing that nobody exists, it is automatically implied, by the very proposition itself, that you ( & some other) exist... if you did not exist, you would not have to tell others that you do not exist... the " nobody exists " position is logically absurd... of course, we exist... denying it doesn't make it go away... this denial-of-self game is a like a form of spiritual suicide... the act of self-denial is just another ego contraption... self-denial is not self-realization... in the first case, the ego has yet to be transcended... yours danananda Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Anders, > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is also no > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness are > identical. > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but neither you > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the non- > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " <feel@f...> > > wrote: > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and > pleasures. > > I > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer of the > > > body?!? > > > > > > fox > > > *** > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and the > world. > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. Awareness is > what > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We are not > > separate beings. > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Exactly right Werner. Well said, but it will bounce off Ander's armor. Anders' intellect has gone into speculative convulsions. It's the last ditch defense of an intellect which senses that very soon will have to face its own futility and impotence. I have seen that before at several lists. After the breakthrough, speculation stops, but then the intellect goes into a frenzy of sharing its newly found insights. A guy by the name of Arvind is going through this second periond right now at advaitatozen, the flood of mystical poetry is ankle deep, yet not as bad as Anders, who is writing more than half the messages posted here in any given day. Let's pray for his prompt recovery! LOL. Pete Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Anders, > > You are the unborn, you never were born, you never existed, you never > will exist and therefore you never will die. What you think is > awareness and all that mystical nonsense is just Maya, products of > your brain. And that brain one day will disappear and with it all > your happy-go-lucky romance with " Source " , " awareness " and all that > spiritual movie you just are stuck in. > > Werner > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > Anders, > > > > > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is also no > > > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness are > > > identical. > > > > > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but neither you > > > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the non- > > > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > > > > > Werner > > > > What I mean by awareness is the simple fact of being self-aware. > The > > more you go into this awareness the more it becomes obvious that > this > > awareness is the Source that is what is alive. The world is > appearing > > in this awareness as a projection without any life or substance of > > itself. I don't exist as an object. No one is an object. I exist as > a > > unique point in Totality. A point is nothing in itself. I suspect > > that is why many mystics have said: " I am nothing " . > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " > > <feel@f...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and > > > pleasures. > > > > I > > > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer of > > the > > > > > body?!? > > > > > > > > > > fox > > > > > *** > > > > > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and the > > > world. > > > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. Awareness > is > > > what > > > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We are > not > > > > separate beings. > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Hi, > by positing that nobody exists, it is automatically implied, by the > very proposition itself, that you ( & some other) exist..>> Yes, it is a ME that makes the assertion, either way it's the same. Whether it asserts it's own existence or the worlds or whether it asserts it own non-existence or the worlds non-existence; it is being asserted by a reflected self / ME. It 'takes a' ME to make the assertion and for all 'intents and purposes' that ME could be speaking about the weather, it is all 'the same'. >>if you did > not exist, you would not have to tell others that you do not exist...>> You *couldn't* tell others you don't exist Again, it is a ME that says so. > the " nobody exists " position is logically absurd...> And it is a ME that thinks it is logically absurd! It is ''absurd'' from a *view without logic* also! But yes, I know what you mean. > of course, we exist... denying it doesn't make it go away...>>> Someone said.. A ME by the way.. '*CALL* it an illusion, it doesn't change anything' Call it a pumpkin... >this > denial-of-self game is a like a form of spiritual suicide...>> *Who* denies the self? >the act > of self-denial is just another ego contraption...>> Contraption / curtain ring / cloud / orange peel. It is a ME that calls it a contraption also. But, yes, it is a *ME* ( your term; ego ) that says so ( denies ) >self-denial is not > self-realization... in the first case, the ego has yet to be >tran>ded... What *IS* 'self realization'? What *IS* 'the best way to remove stains' What *IS* 'the best way to blend coffee'? What *IS* 'on TV'? What *IS* 'the national deficit'? What *IS* 'the breeding call of a black barnyard swallow'? What *IS* ' <fill in this blank> '? Kind Regards, Scott. > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > Anders, > > > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is also no > > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness are > > identical. > > > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but neither you > > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the non- > > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > > > Werner > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " > <feel@f...> > > > wrote: > > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and > > pleasures. > > > I > > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer of > the > > > > body?!? > > > > > > > > fox > > > > *** > > > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and the > > world. > > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. Awareness is > > what > > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We are not > > > separate beings. > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Anders, > > You are the unborn, you never were born, you never existed, you never > will exist and therefore you never will die. What you think is > awareness and all that mystical nonsense is just Maya, products of > your brain. And that brain one day will disappear and with it all > your happy-go-lucky romance with " Source " , " awareness " and all that > spiritual movie you just are stuck in. > > Werner I think my memories and the feeling of " I " will remain even when my body dies. The body is nothing but Maya as you say, and Maya is like drawing lines in the sand on a beach. The lines are real in that they really do exist, but only as a pattern in the sand. Similarly, the material world is nothing but empty patterns in field of consciousness. /AL > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > Anders, > > > > > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is also no > > > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness are > > > identical. > > > > > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but neither you > > > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the non- > > > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > > > > > Werner > > > > What I mean by awareness is the simple fact of being self-aware. > The > > more you go into this awareness the more it becomes obvious that > this > > awareness is the Source that is what is alive. The world is > appearing > > in this awareness as a projection without any life or substance of > > itself. I don't exist as an object. No one is an object. I exist as > a > > unique point in Totality. A point is nothing in itself. I suspect > > that is why many mystics have said: " I am nothing " . > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " > > <feel@f...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and > > > pleasures. > > > > I > > > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer of > > the > > > > > body?!? > > > > > > > > > > fox > > > > > *** > > > > > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and the > > > world. > > > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. Awareness > is > > > what > > > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We are > not > > > > separate beings. > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > Anders, > > > > You are the unborn, you never were born, you never existed, you > never > > will exist and therefore you never will die. What you think is > > awareness and all that mystical nonsense is just Maya, products of > > your brain. And that brain one day will disappear and with it all > > your happy-go-lucky romance with " Source " , " awareness " and all that > > spiritual movie you just are stuck in. > > > > Werner > > I think my memories and the feeling of " I " will remain even when my > body dies. The body is nothing but Maya as you say, and Maya is like > drawing lines in the sand on a beach. The lines are real in that they > really do exist, but only as a pattern in the sand. Similarly, the > material world is nothing but empty patterns in field of > consciousness. > > /AL P: Ha, ha! Such a perspicacious fellow and he has not noticed how his memories die everyday. Can you remember even a few things you were thinking, or even doing a year ago from this day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > Anders, > > > > > > You are the unborn, you never were born, you never existed, you > > never > > > will exist and therefore you never will die. What you think is > > > awareness and all that mystical nonsense is just Maya, products > of > > > your brain. And that brain one day will disappear and with it all > > > your happy-go-lucky romance with " Source " , " awareness " and all > that > > > spiritual movie you just are stuck in. > > > > > > Werner > > > > I think my memories and the feeling of " I " will remain even when my > > body dies. The body is nothing but Maya as you say, and Maya is > like > > drawing lines in the sand on a beach. The lines are real in that > they > > really do exist, but only as a pattern in the sand. Similarly, the > > material world is nothing but empty patterns in field of > > consciousness. > > > > /AL > > P: Ha, ha! Such a perspicacious fellow and he has not noticed how > his memories die everyday. Can you remember even a few things you were > thinking, or even doing a year ago from this day? Memories come and go, but the cloud of " your memories " , your definition of what, where and who you are is always there. Out of this cloud _particular_ memories appear by exact delivery at specific occations. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > You are the unborn, you never were born, you never existed, you > > > never > > > > will exist and therefore you never will die. What you think is > > > > awareness and all that mystical nonsense is just Maya, products > > of > > > > your brain. And that brain one day will disappear and with it > all > > > > your happy-go-lucky romance with " Source " , " awareness " and all > > that > > > > spiritual movie you just are stuck in. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > I think my memories and the feeling of " I " will remain even when > my > > > body dies. The body is nothing but Maya as you say, and Maya is > > like > > > drawing lines in the sand on a beach. The lines are real in that > > they > > > really do exist, but only as a pattern in the sand. Similarly, > the > > > material world is nothing but empty patterns in field of > > > consciousness. > > > > > > /AL > > > > P: Ha, ha! Such a perspicacious fellow and he has not noticed how > > his memories die everyday. Can you remember even a few things you > were > > thinking, or even doing a year ago from this day? > > Memories come and go, but the cloud of " your memories " , your > definition of what, where and who you are is always there. Out of > this cloud _particular_ memories appear by exact delivery at specific > occations. > > /AL That cloud vanishes every night with sleep, it vanishes with injury, or sickness such as senility, and it most certainly will vanish with death. Besides why would you like to keep such pile of rubbish? Don't you understand that any identity is a limitation? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 call it a " me " ... call it a " self " ... call it " brahman " ... call it " god " ... call it " whatever " ... but IT is... i am... anyone who says " i am not " does not understand... for me to say " i am not " is absurd... my very saying it verifies that i am... we r all that... we all r a modification of consciousness... consciousness-bliss r us ('us' meaning all body-minds of whatever species) yours danananda Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " <sga_email> wrote: > > Hi, > > > by positing that nobody exists, it is automatically implied, by the > > very proposition itself, that you ( & some other) exist..>> > > > Yes, it is a ME that makes the assertion, either way it's the same. > > Whether it asserts it's own existence or the worlds or whether it > asserts it own non-existence or the worlds non-existence; it is being > asserted by a reflected self / ME. > > It 'takes a' ME to make the assertion and for all 'intents and > purposes' that ME could be speaking about the weather, it is all 'the > same'. > > > > >>if you did > > not exist, you would not have to tell others that you do not > exist...>> > > > You *couldn't* tell others you don't exist > > Again, it is a ME that says so. > > > > the " nobody exists " position is logically absurd...> > > > And it is a ME that thinks it is logically absurd! > > It is ''absurd'' from a *view without logic* also! > > But yes, I know what you mean. > > > > > of course, we exist... denying it doesn't make it go away...>>> > > > Someone said.. > > A ME by the way.. > > > '*CALL* it an illusion, it doesn't change anything' > > > Call it a pumpkin... > > > > >this > > denial-of-self game is a like a form of spiritual suicide...>> > > > > *Who* denies the self? > > > > >the act > > of self-denial is just another ego contraption...>> > > > Contraption / curtain ring / cloud / orange peel. > > It is a ME that calls it a contraption also. > > But, yes, it is a *ME* ( your term; ego ) that says so ( denies ) > > > >self-denial is not > > self-realization... in the first case, the ego has yet to be > >tran>ded... > > > What *IS* 'self realization'? > > What *IS* 'the best way to remove stains' > > What *IS* 'the best way to blend coffee'? > > What *IS* 'on TV'? > > What *IS* 'the national deficit'? > > What *IS* 'the breeding call of a black barnyard swallow'? > > What *IS* ' <fill in this blank> '? > > > Kind Regards, > > Scott. > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > Anders, > > > > > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is also no > > > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness are > > > identical. > > > > > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but neither you > > > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the non- > > > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " > > <feel@f...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and > > > pleasures. > > > > I > > > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer of > > the > > > > > body?!? > > > > > > > > > > fox > > > > > *** > > > > > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and the > > > world. > > > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. Awareness > is > > > what > > > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We are > not > > > > separate beings. > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Dear danan, Read the following text from Niz: " There was a house, and in the house there was a person; now the person is gone and the house is demolished. The sum total is, whatever experiences you have, whether for a day or for years, it is all illusion. The experiences begin with knowingness. What is the most ingrained habit you have? It is to say " I Am'. This is the root habit. Words and experiences are unworthy of you. This habit of experiencing will not go until you realize that all this domain of the five elements, are unreal, This " I Amness " is itself unreal. " You see, even the " I Amness " is unreal. What remains from " you " ? Hmm ? Werner Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " <danananda2004> wrote: > call it a " me " ... call it a " self " ... call it " brahman " ... call > it " god " ... call it " whatever " ... but IT is... i am... anyone who > says " i am not " does not understand... for me to say " i am not " is > absurd... my very saying it verifies that i am... > > we r all that... we all r a modification of consciousness... > consciousness-bliss r us ('us' meaning all body-minds of whatever > species) > > yours > > danananda > > > Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " > <sga_email> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > by positing that nobody exists, it is automatically implied, by > the > > > very proposition itself, that you ( & some other) exist..>> > > > > > > Yes, it is a ME that makes the assertion, either way it's the same. > > > > Whether it asserts it's own existence or the worlds or whether it > > asserts it own non-existence or the worlds non-existence; it is > being > > asserted by a reflected self / ME. > > > > It 'takes a' ME to make the assertion and for all 'intents and > > purposes' that ME could be speaking about the weather, it is > all 'the > > same'. > > > > > > > > >>if you did > > > not exist, you would not have to tell others that you do not > > exist...>> > > > > > > You *couldn't* tell others you don't exist > > > > Again, it is a ME that says so. > > > > > > > the " nobody exists " position is logically absurd...> > > > > > > And it is a ME that thinks it is logically absurd! > > > > It is ''absurd'' from a *view without logic* also! > > > > But yes, I know what you mean. > > > > > > > > > of course, we exist... denying it doesn't make it go away...>>> > > > > > > Someone said.. > > > > A ME by the way.. > > > > > > '*CALL* it an illusion, it doesn't change anything' > > > > > > Call it a pumpkin... > > > > > > > > >this > > > denial-of-self game is a like a form of spiritual suicide...>> > > > > > > > > *Who* denies the self? > > > > > > > > >the act > > > of self-denial is just another ego contraption...>> > > > > > > Contraption / curtain ring / cloud / orange peel. > > > > It is a ME that calls it a contraption also. > > > > But, yes, it is a *ME* ( your term; ego ) that says so ( denies ) > > > > > > >self-denial is not > > > self-realization... in the first case, the ego has yet to be > > >tran>ded... > > > > > > What *IS* 'self realization'? > > > > What *IS* 'the best way to remove stains' > > > > What *IS* 'the best way to blend coffee'? > > > > What *IS* 'on TV'? > > > > What *IS* 'the national deficit'? > > > > What *IS* 'the breeding call of a black barnyard swallow'? > > > > What *IS* ' <fill in this blank> '? > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > Scott. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is also > no > > > > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness are > > > > identical. > > > > > > > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but neither > you > > > > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the non- > > > > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " > > > <feel@f...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and > > > > pleasures. > > > > > I > > > > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer > of > > > the > > > > > > body?!? > > > > > > > > > > > > fox > > > > > > *** > > > > > > > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and the > > > > world. > > > > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. Awareness > > is > > > > what > > > > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We are > > not > > > > > separate beings. > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > > > You are the unborn, you never were born, you never existed, > you > > > > never > > > > > will exist and therefore you never will die. What you think > is > > > > > awareness and all that mystical nonsense is just Maya, > products > > > of > > > > > your brain. And that brain one day will disappear and with it > > all > > > > > your happy-go-lucky romance with " Source " , " awareness " and > all > > > that > > > > > spiritual movie you just are stuck in. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > I think my memories and the feeling of " I " will remain even > when > > my > > > > body dies. The body is nothing but Maya as you say, and Maya is > > > like > > > > drawing lines in the sand on a beach. The lines are real in > that > > > they > > > > really do exist, but only as a pattern in the sand. Similarly, > > the > > > > material world is nothing but empty patterns in field of > > > > consciousness. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > P: Ha, ha! Such a perspicacious fellow and he has not noticed > how > > > his memories die everyday. Can you remember even a few things you > > were > > > thinking, or even doing a year ago from this day? > > > > Memories come and go, but the cloud of " your memories " , your > > definition of what, where and who you are is always there. Out of > > this cloud _particular_ memories appear by exact delivery at > specific > > occations. > > > > /AL > > That cloud vanishes every night with sleep, it vanishes with > injury, or sickness such as senility, and it most certainly > will vanish with death. Besides why would you like to keep > such pile of rubbish? Don't you understand that any identity is a > limitation? > > Pete You have never been asleep. Nor have I. No one has ever been asleep. What we call sleep is just a _memory_ created now. Science will one " day " confirm this I believe. See: http://makeashorterlink.com/?N33752A98 /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > P: Ha, ha! Such a perspicacious fellow and he has not noticed > > how > > > > his memories die everyday. Can you remember even a few things > you > > > were > > > > thinking, or even doing a year ago from this day? > > > > > > Memories come and go, but the cloud of " your memories " , your > > > definition of what, where and who you are is always there. Out of > > > this cloud _particular_ memories appear by exact delivery at > > specific > > > occations. > > > > > > /AL > > > > That cloud vanishes every night with sleep, it vanishes with > > injury, or sickness such as senility, and it most certainly > > will vanish with death. Besides why would you like to keep > > such pile of rubbish? Don't you understand that any identity is a > > limitation? > > > > Pete > > You have never been asleep. Nor have I. No one has ever been asleep. > What we call sleep is just a _memory_ created now. > > Science will one " day " confirm this I believe. > > See: http://makeashorterlink.com/?N33752A98 Anders you're beginning to worry me. You are so desperated to deny everything, even sleep. The path, Anders, is ACCEPTANCE. Being in total denial leads to the NUTHOUSE. Wake up! Pete > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > P: Ha, ha! Such a perspicacious fellow and he has not > noticed > > > how > > > > > his memories die everyday. Can you remember even a few things > > you > > > > were > > > > > thinking, or even doing a year ago from this day? > > > > > > > > Memories come and go, but the cloud of " your memories " , your > > > > definition of what, where and who you are is always there. Out > of > > > > this cloud _particular_ memories appear by exact delivery at > > > specific > > > > occations. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > That cloud vanishes every night with sleep, it vanishes with > > > injury, or sickness such as senility, and it most certainly > > > will vanish with death. Besides why would you like to keep > > > such pile of rubbish? Don't you understand that any identity is a > > > limitation? > > > > > > Pete > > > > You have never been asleep. Nor have I. No one has ever been > asleep. > > What we call sleep is just a _memory_ created now. > > > > Science will one " day " confirm this I believe. > > > > See: http://makeashorterlink.com/?N33752A98 > > Anders you're beginning to worry me. You are so desperated to deny > everything, even sleep. The path, Anders, is ACCEPTANCE. Being in > total denial leads to the NUTHOUSE. Wake up! > > Pete > I am not denying sleep. I am not denying any past. What I am saying is that this past appear now. The past timelessly pops into existence now - _all_ of the past. This is what Julian Barbour describes in his timeless theory. And we can see the possible truth about this ourselves. Can you deny that you have been asleep last night? No. Can you deny that this sleep is now just a memory in the now? No. Can you deny the possibility that this sleep is _only_ a memory and actually not something that has happened in a past, but instead a memory that is happening now? No. Waking up is about seeing that now is all there is. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 the maharaj is talking about the ego-body-mind... the body-mind is a temporary illusion, no doubt about it... but the consciousness-bliss which makes aware, which enlightens this illusion, is infinite, transcendent... if you read on in the maharaj's discussions, you will hear him say he is beyond birth & death, beyond being & not being, beyond the beyond, etc., etc... he spoke this way repeatedly... once one becomes attentive to one's own awareness, the truth shines brightly without a doubt... Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Dear danan, > > Read the following text from Niz: > > " There was a house, and in the house there was a person; now the > person is gone and the house is demolished. The sum total is, > whatever experiences you have, whether for a day or for years, it is > all illusion. The experiences begin with knowingness. What is the > most ingrained habit you have? It is to say " I Am'. This is the root > habit. Words and experiences are unworthy of you. This habit of > experiencing will not go until you realize that all this domain of > the five elements, are unreal, This " I Amness " is itself unreal. " > > You see, even the " I Amness " is unreal. What remains from " you " ? > > Hmm ? > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " > <danananda2004> wrote: > > call it a " me " ... call it a " self " ... call it " brahman " ... call > > it " god " ... call it " whatever " ... but IT is... i am... anyone who > > says " i am not " does not understand... for me to say " i am not " is > > absurd... my very saying it verifies that i am... > > > > we r all that... we all r a modification of consciousness... > > consciousness-bliss r us ('us' meaning all body-minds of whatever > > species) > > > > yours > > > > danananda > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " > > <sga_email> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > by positing that nobody exists, it is automatically implied, by > > the > > > > very proposition itself, that you ( & some other) exist..>> > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a ME that makes the assertion, either way it's the > same. > > > > > > Whether it asserts it's own existence or the worlds or whether it > > > asserts it own non-existence or the worlds non-existence; it is > > being > > > asserted by a reflected self / ME. > > > > > > It 'takes a' ME to make the assertion and for all 'intents and > > > purposes' that ME could be speaking about the weather, it is > > all 'the > > > same'. > > > > > > > > > > > > >>if you did > > > > not exist, you would not have to tell others that you do not > > > exist...>> > > > > > > > > > You *couldn't* tell others you don't exist > > > > > > Again, it is a ME that says so. > > > > > > > > > > the " nobody exists " position is logically absurd...> > > > > > > > > > And it is a ME that thinks it is logically absurd! > > > > > > It is ''absurd'' from a *view without logic* also! > > > > > > But yes, I know what you mean. > > > > > > > > > > > > > of course, we exist... denying it doesn't make it go away...>>> > > > > > > > > > Someone said.. > > > > > > A ME by the way.. > > > > > > > > > '*CALL* it an illusion, it doesn't change anything' > > > > > > > > > Call it a pumpkin... > > > > > > > > > > > > >this > > > > denial-of-self game is a like a form of spiritual suicide...>> > > > > > > > > > > > > *Who* denies the self? > > > > > > > > > > > > >the act > > > > of self-denial is just another ego contraption...>> > > > > > > > > > Contraption / curtain ring / cloud / orange peel. > > > > > > It is a ME that calls it a contraption also. > > > > > > But, yes, it is a *ME* ( your term; ego ) that says so ( > denies ) > > > > > > > > > >self-denial is not > > > > self-realization... in the first case, the ego has yet to be > > > >tran>ded... > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'self realization'? > > > > > > What *IS* 'the best way to remove stains' > > > > > > What *IS* 'the best way to blend coffee'? > > > > > > What *IS* 'on TV'? > > > > > > What *IS* 'the national deficit'? > > > > > > What *IS* 'the breeding call of a black barnyard swallow'? > > > > > > What *IS* ' <fill in this blank> '? > > > > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > > > Scott. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is > also > > no > > > > > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness are > > > > > identical. > > > > > > > > > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but > neither > > you > > > > > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the non- > > > > > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " > > > > <feel@f...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and > > > > > pleasures. > > > > > > I > > > > > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the experiencer > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > body?!? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fox > > > > > > > *** > > > > > > > > > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and > the > > > > > world. > > > > > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. > Awareness > > > is > > > > > what > > > > > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We > are > > > not > > > > > > separate beings. > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 Dear Danan, Maybe there is a misunderstanding between us, I am not the least interested in taking away or to ridicule your experience of bliss and joy. Mr. Maharaj sometimes was pretty tricky. First he says you are the witness, the observer and then he says he is beyond those: " I am beyond consciousness and its observer, beyond the world and its creator " . What remains when you " are " beyond all those ? Nothing ! Werner Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " <danananda2004> wrote: > the maharaj is talking about the ego-body-mind... the body-mind is a > temporary illusion, no doubt about it... but the consciousness- bliss > which makes aware, which enlightens this illusion, is infinite, > transcendent... if you read on in the maharaj's discussions, you will > hear him say he is beyond birth & death, beyond being & not being, > beyond the beyond, etc., etc... he spoke this way repeatedly... > > once one becomes attentive to one's own awareness, the truth shines > brightly without a doubt... > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > Dear danan, > > > > Read the following text from Niz: > > > > " There was a house, and in the house there was a person; now the > > person is gone and the house is demolished. The sum total is, > > whatever experiences you have, whether for a day or for years, it is > > all illusion. The experiences begin with knowingness. What is the > > most ingrained habit you have? It is to say " I Am'. This is the root > > habit. Words and experiences are unworthy of you. This habit of > > experiencing will not go until you realize that all this domain of > > the five elements, are unreal, This " I Amness " is itself unreal. " > > > > You see, even the " I Amness " is unreal. What remains from " you " ? > > > > Hmm ? > > > > Werner > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " > > <danananda2004> wrote: > > > call it a " me " ... call it a " self " ... call it " brahman " ... call > > > it " god " ... call it " whatever " ... but IT is... i am... anyone who > > > says " i am not " does not understand... for me to say " i am not " > is > > > absurd... my very saying it verifies that i am... > > > > > > we r all that... we all r a modification of consciousness... > > > consciousness-bliss r us ('us' meaning all body-minds of whatever > > > species) > > > > > > yours > > > > > > danananda > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " > > > <sga_email> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > by positing that nobody exists, it is automatically implied, > by > > > the > > > > > very proposition itself, that you ( & some other) exist..>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a ME that makes the assertion, either way it's the > > same. > > > > > > > > Whether it asserts it's own existence or the worlds or whether > it > > > > asserts it own non-existence or the worlds non-existence; it is > > > being > > > > asserted by a reflected self / ME. > > > > > > > > It 'takes a' ME to make the assertion and for all 'intents and > > > > purposes' that ME could be speaking about the weather, it is > > > all 'the > > > > same'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>if you did > > > > > not exist, you would not have to tell others that you do not > > > > exist...>> > > > > > > > > > > > > You *couldn't* tell others you don't exist > > > > > > > > Again, it is a ME that says so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > the " nobody exists " position is logically absurd...> > > > > > > > > > > > > And it is a ME that thinks it is logically absurd! > > > > > > > > It is ''absurd'' from a *view without logic* also! > > > > > > > > But yes, I know what you mean. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of course, we exist... denying it doesn't make it go > away...>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone said.. > > > > > > > > A ME by the way.. > > > > > > > > > > > > '*CALL* it an illusion, it doesn't change anything' > > > > > > > > > > > > Call it a pumpkin... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >this > > > > > denial-of-self game is a like a form of spiritual suicide...>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Who* denies the self? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >the act > > > > > of self-denial is just another ego contraption...>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Contraption / curtain ring / cloud / orange peel. > > > > > > > > It is a ME that calls it a contraption also. > > > > > > > > But, yes, it is a *ME* ( your term; ego ) that says so ( > > denies ) > > > > > > > > > > > > >self-denial is not > > > > > self-realization... in the first case, the ego has yet to be > > > > >tran>ded... > > > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'self realization'? > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the best way to remove stains' > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the best way to blend coffee'? > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'on TV'? > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the national deficit'? > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the breeding call of a black barnyard swallow'? > > > > > > > > What *IS* ' <fill in this blank> '? > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > > > > > Scott. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there is > > also > > > no > > > > > > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness > are > > > > > > identical. > > > > > > > > > > > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but > > neither > > > you > > > > > > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the > non- > > > > > > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " > > > > > <feel@f...> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains and > > > > > > pleasures. > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the > experiencer > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > > body?!? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fox > > > > > > > > *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body and > > the > > > > > > world. > > > > > > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. > > Awareness > > > > is > > > > > > what > > > > > > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. We > > are > > > > not > > > > > > > separate beings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 the maharaj was not a nihilist... consciousness seems like nothing to you because it is totally subjective... it is not a " thing " ... it cannot be perceived as an object... thou art that (TAT TVAM ASI)... this was the message the maharaj continually expounded upon... which can also be confirmed in the mystical writings of the vedas & the upanishads... " You were never born, nor will you ever die. It is the idea that was born and shall die, not you. By identifying yourself with it you became mortal. Just like in a cinema all is light, so does consciousness become the vast world. Look closely, and you will see that all names and forms are but transitory waves on the ocean of consciousness, that only consciousness can be said to be, not its transformations. " In the immensity of consciousness a light appears, a tiny point that moves rapidly and traces shapes, thoughts and feelings, concepts and ideas, like the pen writing on paper. And the ink that leaves a trace is memory. You are that tiny point and by your movement the world is ever re-created. Stop moving, and there will be no world. Look within and you will find that the point of light is the reflection of the immensity of light in the body, as the sense 'I am'. There is only light, all else appears. " (excerpt from " I Am That " , chap. 78, p. 392) Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Dear Danan, > > Maybe there is a misunderstanding between us, I am not the least > interested in taking away or to ridicule your experience of bliss and > joy. > > Mr. Maharaj sometimes was pretty tricky. First he says you are the > witness, the observer and then he says he is beyond those: " I am > beyond consciousness and its observer, beyond the world and its > creator " . > > What remains when you " are " beyond all those ? Nothing ! > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " > <danananda2004> wrote: > > the maharaj is talking about the ego-body-mind... the body-mind is > a > > temporary illusion, no doubt about it... but the consciousness- > bliss > > which makes aware, which enlightens this illusion, is infinite, > > transcendent... if you read on in the maharaj's discussions, you > will > > hear him say he is beyond birth & death, beyond being & not being, > > beyond the beyond, etc., etc... he spoke this way repeatedly... > > > > once one becomes attentive to one's own awareness, the truth shines > > brightly without a doubt... > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > Dear danan, > > > > > > Read the following text from Niz: > > > > > > " There was a house, and in the house there was a person; now the > > > person is gone and the house is demolished. The sum total is, > > > whatever experiences you have, whether for a day or for years, it > is > > > all illusion. The experiences begin with knowingness. What is the > > > most ingrained habit you have? It is to say " I Am'. This is the > root > > > habit. Words and experiences are unworthy of you. This habit of > > > experiencing will not go until you realize that all this domain of > > > the five elements, are unreal, This " I Amness " is itself unreal. " > > > > > > You see, even the " I Amness " is unreal. What remains from " you " ? > > > > > > Hmm ? > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " > > > <danananda2004> wrote: > > > > call it a " me " ... call it a " self " ... call it " brahman " ... call > > > > it " god " ... call it " whatever " ... but IT is... i am... anyone > who > > > > says " i am not " does not understand... for me to say " i am not " > > is > > > > absurd... my very saying it verifies that i am... > > > > > > > > we r all that... we all r a modification of consciousness... > > > > consciousness-bliss r us ('us' meaning all body-minds of > whatever > > > > species) > > > > > > > > yours > > > > > > > > danananda > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " > > > > <sga_email> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > by positing that nobody exists, it is automatically > implied, > > by > > > > the > > > > > > very proposition itself, that you ( & some other) exist..>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a ME that makes the assertion, either way it's the > > > same. > > > > > > > > > > Whether it asserts it's own existence or the worlds or > whether > > it > > > > > asserts it own non-existence or the worlds non-existence; it > is > > > > being > > > > > asserted by a reflected self / ME. > > > > > > > > > > It 'takes a' ME to make the assertion and for all 'intents > and > > > > > purposes' that ME could be speaking about the weather, it is > > > > all 'the > > > > > same'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>if you did > > > > > > not exist, you would not have to tell others that you do > not > > > > > exist...>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You *couldn't* tell others you don't exist > > > > > > > > > > Again, it is a ME that says so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the " nobody exists " position is logically absurd...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it is a ME that thinks it is logically absurd! > > > > > > > > > > It is ''absurd'' from a *view without logic* also! > > > > > > > > > > But yes, I know what you mean. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of course, we exist... denying it doesn't make it go > > away...>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone said.. > > > > > > > > > > A ME by the way.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > '*CALL* it an illusion, it doesn't change anything' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Call it a pumpkin... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >this > > > > > > denial-of-self game is a like a form of spiritual > suicide...>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Who* denies the self? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >the act > > > > > > of self-denial is just another ego contraption...>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Contraption / curtain ring / cloud / orange peel. > > > > > > > > > > It is a ME that calls it a contraption also. > > > > > > > > > > But, yes, it is a *ME* ( your term; ego ) that says so ( > > > denies ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >self-denial is not > > > > > > self-realization... in the first case, the ego has yet to > be > > > > > >tran>ded... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'self realization'? > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the best way to remove stains' > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the best way to blend coffee'? > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'on TV'? > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the national deficit'? > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the breeding call of a black barnyard swallow'? > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* ' <fill in this blank> '? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Scott. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there > is > > > also > > > > no > > > > > > > awareness " of " something. That " something " and awareness > > are > > > > > > > identical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but > > > neither > > > > you > > > > > > > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and the > > non- > > > > > > > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " > > > > > > <feel@f...> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains > and > > > > > > > pleasures. > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the body. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the > > experiencer > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > body?!? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fox > > > > > > > > > *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body > and > > > the > > > > > > > world. > > > > > > > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. > > > Awareness > > > > > is > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. > We > > > are > > > > > not > > > > > > > > separate beings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " <danananda2004> wrote: > the maharaj was not a nihilist... consciousness seems like nothing to > you because it is totally subjective... it is not a " thing " ... it > cannot be perceived as an object... > > thou art that (TAT TVAM ASI)... this was the message the maharaj > continually expounded upon... which can also be confirmed in the > mystical writings of the vedas & the upanishads... > > " You were never born, nor will you ever die. It is the idea that was > born and shall die, not you. By identifying yourself with it you > became mortal. Just like in a cinema all is light, so does > consciousness become the vast world. Look closely, and you will see > that all names and forms are but transitory waves on the ocean of > consciousness, that only consciousness can be said to be, not its > transformations. > > " In the immensity of consciousness a light appears, a tiny point that > moves rapidly and traces shapes, thoughts and feelings, concepts and > ideas, like the pen writing on paper. And the ink that leaves a trace > is memory. You are that tiny point and by your movement the world is > ever re-created. Stop moving, and there will be no world. Look within > and you will find that the point of light is the reflection of the > immensity of light in the body, as the sense 'I am'. There is only > light, all else appears. " > > (excerpt from " I Am That " , chap. 78, p. 392) Yes I believe this is correct. All that can be measured has no independent existence. /AL > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > Dear Danan, > > > > Maybe there is a misunderstanding between us, I am not the least > > interested in taking away or to ridicule your experience of bliss > and > > joy. > > > > Mr. Maharaj sometimes was pretty tricky. First he says you are the > > witness, the observer and then he says he is beyond those: " I am > > beyond consciousness and its observer, beyond the world and its > > creator " . > > > > What remains when you " are " beyond all those ? Nothing ! > > > > Werner > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " > > <danananda2004> wrote: > > > the maharaj is talking about the ego-body-mind... the body-mind > is > > a > > > temporary illusion, no doubt about it... but the consciousness- > > bliss > > > which makes aware, which enlightens this illusion, is infinite, > > > transcendent... if you read on in the maharaj's discussions, you > > will > > > hear him say he is beyond birth & death, beyond being & not > being, > > > beyond the beyond, etc., etc... he spoke this way repeatedly... > > > > > > once one becomes attentive to one's own awareness, the truth > shines > > > brightly without a doubt... > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > Dear danan, > > > > > > > > Read the following text from Niz: > > > > > > > > " There was a house, and in the house there was a person; now the > > > > person is gone and the house is demolished. The sum total is, > > > > whatever experiences you have, whether for a day or for years, > it > > is > > > > all illusion. The experiences begin with knowingness. What is > the > > > > most ingrained habit you have? It is to say " I Am'. This is the > > root > > > > habit. Words and experiences are unworthy of you. This habit of > > > > experiencing will not go until you realize that all this domain > of > > > > the five elements, are unreal, This " I Amness " is itself > unreal. " > > > > > > > > You see, even the " I Amness " is unreal. What remains > from " you " ? > > > > > > > > Hmm ? > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " danananda2004 " > > > > <danananda2004> wrote: > > > > > call it a " me " ... call it a " self " ... call it " brahman " ... > call > > > > > it " god " ... call it " whatever " ... but IT is... i am... anyone > > who > > > > > says " i am not " does not understand... for me to say " i am > not " > > > is > > > > > absurd... my very saying it verifies that i am... > > > > > > > > > > we r all that... we all r a modification of consciousness... > > > > > consciousness-bliss r us ('us' meaning all body-minds of > > whatever > > > > > species) > > > > > > > > > > yours > > > > > > > > > > danananda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " > > > > > <sga_email> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > by positing that nobody exists, it is automatically > > implied, > > > by > > > > > the > > > > > > > very proposition itself, that you ( & some other) exist..>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a ME that makes the assertion, either way it's > the > > > > same. > > > > > > > > > > > > Whether it asserts it's own existence or the worlds or > > whether > > > it > > > > > > asserts it own non-existence or the worlds non-existence; > it > > is > > > > > being > > > > > > asserted by a reflected self / ME. > > > > > > > > > > > > It 'takes a' ME to make the assertion and for all 'intents > > and > > > > > > purposes' that ME could be speaking about the weather, it > is > > > > > all 'the > > > > > > same'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>if you did > > > > > > > not exist, you would not have to tell others that you do > > not > > > > > > exist...>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You *couldn't* tell others you don't exist > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, it is a ME that says so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the " nobody exists " position is logically absurd...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it is a ME that thinks it is logically absurd! > > > > > > > > > > > > It is ''absurd'' from a *view without logic* also! > > > > > > > > > > > > But yes, I know what you mean. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of course, we exist... denying it doesn't make it go > > > away...>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone said.. > > > > > > > > > > > > A ME by the way.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > '*CALL* it an illusion, it doesn't change anything' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Call it a pumpkin... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >this > > > > > > > denial-of-self game is a like a form of spiritual > > suicide...>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Who* denies the self? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >the act > > > > > > > of self-denial is just another ego contraption...>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Contraption / curtain ring / cloud / orange peel. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a ME that calls it a contraption also. > > > > > > > > > > > > But, yes, it is a *ME* ( your term; ego ) that says so ( > > > > denies ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >self-denial is not > > > > > > > self-realization... in the first case, the ego has yet to > > be > > > > > > >tran>ded... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'self realization'? > > > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the best way to remove stains' > > > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the best way to blend coffee'? > > > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'on TV'? > > > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the national deficit'? > > > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* 'the breeding call of a black barnyard swallow'? > > > > > > > > > > > > What *IS* ' <fill in this blank> '? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no such thing as awareness and therefore there > > is > > > > also > > > > > no > > > > > > > > awareness " of " something. That " something " and > awareness > > > are > > > > > > > > identical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You (Anders) still believe that you are awareness, but > > > > neither > > > > > you > > > > > > > > nor awareness exist. And again your non-existence and > the > > > non- > > > > > > > > exsitence of awareness are identical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > --- In > Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " > > > > > > > <feel@f...> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hola altogether! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just read the following from Nisarga: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " He who experiences the body, experiences its pains > > and > > > > > > > > pleasures. > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > am neither the body, nor the experiencer of the > body. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** So, we are neither the body, nor even the > > > experiencer > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > body?!? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fox > > > > > > > > > > *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would guess that we are awareness aware of the body > > and > > > > the > > > > > > > > world. > > > > > > > > > Awareness is aware of the expericencer of the body. > > > > Awareness > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > we are and that is not an object. We are not objects. > > We > > > > are > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > separate beings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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