Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: I believe the will or choice to watch thoughts is a happening in thought itself, and cannot be brought about by any personal effort; even when it seems to have been brought about by personal effort, the effort itself is a spontaneous happening in what is. Sure, we can use our will to become more mindful, and we should! At least that is what I think at the moment. But in reality I think there is no personal will or choice at all. /AL hi , Ive read your recent exchange on this topic and I am going to tread some dangerous territory here so excuse me if it seems childish to all of you. Often since childhood, I used to feel that the " ME " in me flies out of me and sits on the roof and watches the phsyical me with amusement as I am pulled around/ despair etc etc..It started to make sense to me after some time when I began making the effort to understand this separation and unity between us. and this is my question ..How exactly is effort a spontaneous happening ? take for example - Anders used his will power to make the effort to go to wash the dishes..he could have might as well let them rot.. right! Similarly can we make a simple similar effort to quieten the running commentary of thoughts? ...Yes you can..its difficult, sure when we dont have will power..putting in a real life scenario - when we dont have any distractions ..for example ..if Anders had a woman he liked ( :-) !!!) in the kitchen at the time he was washing dishes..once can almost be certain that he would be in the NOW! Its when one is alone without distractions when the thoughts arise .. There is a choice and there is a will! Whether that is processed by the " ME " or not - whether they are part of the " ME " or not, they are there and are important parts of us. Maybe they all arise from the " ME " as " ME " is what IS. But ive learnt that we can use the will and choice to ensure that the sum of all parts is Greater than the whole. The thing to understand to live daily life, as according to me, is that it not by will power alone that you can succeed. It is not by applying certain skills or knowledge that you will achieve lasting success (whatever/wherever) . It is not luck or fortune. It is not hard work. It is not the time, place, or circumstance into which you were born that leads to success or failure. Success is created by harmony. It is through an understanding and acceptance of who you are (mindfulness) and what you may choose (choice) to do that brings success in each and every aspect of life. To do that, we need to understand the nature of consciousness and connect with our power to create. Your sub Consciousness knows only the present time (as in it replays/relays only in the NOW). There is no future or past in the subconscious mind. What I mean to say is that while it stores all the future and past events/ emotions etc etc ... . all stored experiences are processed as NOW and therefore impact your NOW. Know that the past affects you NOW, as the subconscious replays past programming in the present (as Scott says, we are pulled around like dummies) So affirm in the now, not in the future. And understand that you have the power right now to re-write sabotaging programs from the past so you can claim a better future. and for all this you need to have the will and you need to understand that it is YOU who enable this warped Arithematic - sum of all parts should be greater than the whole. regards M Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " <sga_email> wrote: > > Hi again > > > Maybe true mindfulness is when there is no 'me' there at all trying > > to change things, i.e. the mind is complete and undivided. > > > Mindfulness is about watching thoughts and thoughts cannot arise > without a ME. > > > Kind Regards, > > Scott. ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Hi again, > > Mindfulness is about watching thoughts and thoughts cannot arise > > without a ME. > I believe the will or choice to watch thoughts is a happening in > thought itself, and cannot be brought about by any personal effort; It is a happening yes, not in any thought, it is a happening in the whole. > even when it seems to have been brought about by personal effort, the > effort itself is a spontaneous happening in what is> Everything is a spontaneous happening in what is. Choosing and willing also and without contradiction Contradiction only arises when one notion is chosen to the exclusion of another. > > Sure, we can use our will to become more mindful, and we should! At > least that is what I think at the moment. But in reality I think > there is no personal will or choice at all> I guess the question then is will you now after having said this as your belief now practice mindfulness Kind Regards, Scott. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " <sga_email> wrote: > > Hi again, > > > > Mindfulness is about watching thoughts and thoughts cannot arise > > > without a ME. > > > I believe the will or choice to watch thoughts is a happening in > > thought itself, and cannot be brought about by any personal effort; > > > It is a happening yes, not in any thought, it is a happening in the > whole. > > > even when it seems to have been brought about by personal effort, > the > > effort itself is a spontaneous happening in what is> > > Everything is a spontaneous happening in what is. > Choosing and willing also and without contradiction > > Contradiction only arises when one notion is chosen to the exclusion > of another. > > > > > > Sure, we can use our will to become more mindful, and we should! At > > least that is what I think at the moment. But in reality I think > > there is no personal will or choice at all> > > > I guess the question then is will you now after having said this as > your belief now practice mindfulness Sure. :-) When I feel like it. hehe. /AL > > > Kind Regards, > > Scott. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , Masti <mastteddy> wrote: > anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > I believe the will or choice to watch thoughts is a happening in thought itself, and cannot be brought about by any personal effort; even when it seems to have been brought about by personal effort, the effort itself is a spontaneous happening in what is. Sure, we can use our will to become more mindful, and we should! At least that is what I think at the moment. But in reality I think there is no personal will or choice at all. > > /AL > > hi , > > Ive read your recent exchange on this topic and I am going to tread some dangerous territory here so excuse me if it seems childish to all of you. Often since childhood, I used to feel that the " ME " in me flies out of me and sits on the roof and watches the phsyical me with amusement as I am pulled around/ despair etc etc..It started to make sense to me after some time when I began making the effort to understand this separation and unity between us. and this is my question ..How exactly is effort a spontaneous happening ? take for example - Anders used his will power to make the effort to go to wash the dishes..he could have might as well let them rot.. right! Similarly can we make a simple similar effort to quieten the running commentary of thoughts? ...Yes you can..its difficult, sure when we dont have will power..putting in a real life scenario - when we dont have any distractions ..for example ..if Anders had a woman he liked ( :-) !!!) in the kitchen at the time he was washing > dishes..once can almost be certain that he would be in the NOW! Its when one is alone without distractions when the thoughts arise .. There is a choice and there is a will! Whether that is processed by the " ME " or not - whether they are part of the " ME " or not, they are there and are important parts of us. Maybe they all arise from the " ME " as " ME " is what IS. But ive learnt that we can use the will and choice to ensure that the sum of all parts is Greater than the whole. > > The thing to understand to live daily life, as according to me, is that it not by will power alone that you can succeed. It is not by applying certain skills or knowledge that you will achieve lasting success (whatever/wherever) . It is not luck or fortune. It is not hard work. It is not the time, place, or circumstance into which you were born that leads to success or failure. > > Success is created by harmony. It is through an understanding and acceptance of who you are (mindfulness) and what you may choose (choice) to do that brings success in each and every aspect of life. > > To do that, we need to understand the nature of consciousness and connect with our power to create. Your sub Consciousness knows only the present time (as in it replays/relays only in the NOW). There is no future or past in the subconscious mind. What I mean to say is that while it stores all the future and past events/ emotions etc etc ... . all stored experiences are processed as NOW and therefore impact your NOW. > > Know that the past affects you NOW, as the subconscious replays past programming in the present (as Scott says, we are pulled around like dummies) So affirm in the now, not in the future. And understand that you have the power right now to re-write sabotaging programs from the past so you can claim a better future. and for all this you need to have the will and you need to understand that it is YOU who enable this warped Arithematic - sum of all parts should be greater than the whole. > > regards > > M I like to see my will and God's will as being exactly the same thing. Then this would mean that also Osama Bin Laden's will and God's will are One and the same. Yes! That is what I feel. This One Will is taking care of everything. When I use my will to write a post, it is of course my free will that is in action, but how can that will be different from God's will? As far as I can tell, there cannot be any difference. If you are an atheist, you can replace 'God' with the 'Universe'. These are just labels, but I like to use the word God sometimes, because it is a better pointer to intelligence and love than the word 'Universe' which we can sometimes think of as only atoms being churned around in time and space. Sometimes it is better to use words like 'Universe' or All-there-is instead of the word 'God', because the word God has a history of meaning something that is not 'you', that there is God *plus* you. When I say God's will, I mean Totality unfolding. Of course we should use our free will to make ourselves and the world better. Why not? I like to think that what I want is exactly what God wants. What George W. Bush wants is exactly what God wants. What Osama Bin Laden wants is exactly what God wants. It is just that God has lost himself/herself and are looking for itself, and all there is is God itself. This is Lila, God's game, and the playground is called Maya. So wonderfully infinite and advanced this Lila! What is the meaning of Lila? I think that the idea is to create a very joyful and adventurous journey. And in order to do this, *we* must make Lila into what we want it to be, and that means using free will. And to *really* make things happen in the world we have to go as a human species into a balanced state of consciousness, where there is an awareness of the connection of everything *without* losing the sense of being able " to do what the heck I want to on a _totally_ egoistic level " . Oneness is worthless is it will hamper the sense of total personal freedom. /AL > > Nisargadatta , " Scott Andersen " > <sga_email> wrote: > > > > Hi again > > > > > Maybe true mindfulness is when there is no 'me' there at all > trying > > > to change things, i.e. the mind is complete and undivided. > > > > > > Mindfulness is about watching thoughts and thoughts cannot arise > > without a ME. > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > Scott. > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 my replies in bold within urs anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: I like to see my will and God's will as being exactly the same thing. Then this would mean that also Osama Bin Laden's will and God's will are One and the same. Yes! That is what I feel. This One Will is taking care of everything. ok I can understand that. Its the same as asking why did God let this happen , why did God let Osama kill. But you know here is the catch of it - Just as there is a Osama , there is a Maharaja rt..so if all will is one will , then dont you see the balancing act going on ..which somebody somewhere is doing...and if we assume that all this is God's Lila ..then it makes all the more sense ..doesnt it? When I use my will to write a post, it is of course my free will that is in action, but how can that will be different from God's will? Its not different ! but in this Lila, there is a choice and when you use your free will , you make a choice. Lets says there is a riot on the street and everybody is throwing stones and stuff..now you have a choice, you either join in , scoot or try to save as many people as you can..isnt it? God's Lila is what we say, " aprampar " its all encompassing and within this wholeness, each has a role to play. God leaves you free to choose how you want to play this role - by making negative choices / positive choices..these form our Karma.. ! Though i am not clear on the Karma and Kismet stuff but the above seems to me as a way to live. As far as I can tell, there cannot be any difference. If you are an atheist, you can replace 'God' with the 'Universe'. These are just labels, but I like to use the word God sometimes, because it is a better pointer to intelligence and love than the word 'Universe' which we can sometimes think of as only atoms being churned around in time and space. Sometimes it is better to use words like 'Universe' or All-there-is instead of the word 'God', because the word God has a history of meaning something that is not 'you', that there is God *plus* you. When I say God's will, I mean Totality unfolding. Yes. i agree and I use God too. Of course we should use our free will to make ourselves and the world better. Why not? I like to think that what I want is exactly what God wants. What George W. Bush wants is exactly what God wants. What Osama Bin Laden wants is exactly what God wants. It is just that God has lost himself/herself and are looking for itself, and all there is is God itself. This is Lila, God's game, and the playground is called Maya. So wonderfully infinite and advanced this Lila! :-) Anders! why go this deep into sickos like osama + bush etc etc ..lets keep it simple..for instance imagine a cookery class with give students. Each one is given a potato to cook in 5 minutes..The five can execrsie their will and choice - boil, saute, fry, bake, etc ! ( i ran out of cooking options)..Now where does poor God come in here..Each is exercising his choice! What is the meaning of Lila? I think that the idea is to create a very joyful and adventurous journey. And in order to do this, *we* must make Lila into what we want it to be, and that means using free will. Yes , here i completely agree with you And to *really* make things happen in the world we have to go as a human species into a balanced state of consciousness, where there is an awareness of the connection of everything *without* losing the sense of being able " to do what the heck I want to on a _totally_ egoistic level " . Well! every freedom has its limitations. Your fundamental right to swing your arm wildly STOPS when the other person's nose starts!! no? Oneness is worthless is it will hamper the sense of total personal freedom. I think we can find worth in dirt! and label Gita as worthless..Its our choice and free will /AL / M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2004 Report Share Posted July 24, 2004 Nisargadatta , Masti <mastteddy> wrote: > my replies in bold within urs > > anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > I like to see my will and God's will as being exactly the same thing. > Then this would mean that also Osama Bin Laden's will and God's will > are One and the same. Yes! That is what I feel. This One Will is > taking care of everything. > > ok I can understand that. Its the same as asking why did God let this happen , why did God let Osama kill. But you know here is the catch of it - Just as there is a Osama , there is a Maharaja rt..so if all will is one will , then dont you see the balancing act going on ..which somebody somewhere is doing...and if we assume that all this is God's Lila ..then it makes all the more sense ..doesnt it? Yes, there is a balancing act going on, and it is nature itself who is 'doing' everything. A human being doesn't do his or her brain/mind/body, nature is. > > When I use my will to write a post, it is > of course my free will that is in action, but how can that will be > different from God's will? > > Its not different ! but in this Lila, there is a choice and when you use your free will , you make a choice. Lets says there is a riot on the street and everybody is throwing stones and stuff..now you have a choice, you either join in , scoot or try to save as many people as you can..isnt it? God's Lila is what we say, " aprampar " its all encompassing and within this wholeness, each has a role to play. God leaves you free to choose how you want to play this role - by making negative choices / positive choices..these form our Karma.. ! Though i am not clear on the Karma and Kismet stuff but the above seems to me as a way to live. Choice is just an incomplete view of what is. It is the incomplete view that *is* the choice. This incompleteness is needed in order to make the world as it is. Choiceless awareness is not about not making any choices, choiceless awareness is to make the right choices all the time, and when you *know* what to do, then there is no choice, then there is complete action. > > As far as I can tell, there cannot be any > difference. If you are an atheist, you can replace 'God' with > the 'Universe'. These are just labels, but I like to use the word God > sometimes, because it is a better pointer to intelligence and love > than the word 'Universe' which we can sometimes think of as only > atoms being churned around in time and space. Sometimes it is better > to use words like 'Universe' or All-there-is instead of the > word 'God', because the word God has a history of meaning something > that is not 'you', that there is God *plus* you. When I say God's > will, I mean Totality unfolding. > > > Yes. i agree and I use God too. > > > Of course we should use our free will to make ourselves and the world > better. Why not? Choice is conflict. Choice breeds war. Choiceless awareness is peace and complete action at the same time; selfishness and unselfishness at the same time. The fragmented mind needs choice, and this choice breeds violence. Those who are fighting for peace are in conflict with people wanting war. Making a better world will happen when people begin to connect to the universal consciousness, not when they use their fragmented minds to change the world, because as long as there is 'me' against 'them' there will be violence. >I like to think that what I want is exactly what God > wants. What George W. Bush wants is exactly what God wants. What > Osama Bin Laden wants is exactly what God wants. It is just that God > has lost himself/herself and are looking for itself, and all there is > is God itself. This is Lila, God's game, and the playground is called > Maya. So wonderfully infinite and advanced this Lila! > > > :-) Anders! why go this deep into sickos like osama + bush etc etc Hehe. :-) ...lets keep it simple..for instance imagine a cookery class with give students. Each one is given a potato to cook in 5 minutes..The five can execrsie their will and choice - boil, saute, fry, bake, etc ! ( i ran out of cooking options).. (you can also mash potatoes, or is this what saute means :-) >Now where does poor God come in here..Each is exercising his choice! In a vast ocean a little wave says to another small wave: " Look, how indepentent I am, I have my own free will! " ;-) > What is the meaning of Lila? I think that the idea is to create a > very joyful and adventurous journey. And in order to do this, *we* > must make Lila into what we want it to be, and that means using free > will. > > Yes , here i completely agree with you > > And to *really* make things happen in the world we have to go > as a human species into a balanced state of consciousness, where > there is an awareness of the connection of everything *without* > losing the sense of being able " to do what the heck I want to on a > _totally_ egoistic level " . > > Well! every freedom has its limitations. Your fundamental right to swing your arm wildly STOPS when the other person's nose starts!! no? I think freedom is a state when one can do whatever one wants to do at any time and at the same time everyone else can do anything they want, *without* fear. God, the supreme dictator is running the whole show, but God is all there is so God is you, God is me. > > Oneness is worthless is it will hamper the > sense of total personal freedom. > > > I think we can find worth in dirt! and label Gita as worthless..Its our choice and free will " 6. Though free from all births, and though My own Self never suffers change, though Lord of all created things, even so, governing My own nature, I take birth through My own Maya. " -- The Bhagavadgita, Chapter 4 The Self is changeless. As I see it, the Self contains all possibilities. That also means infinite capacity. Meaning is found in the manifestation sprung from the unmanifested changeless; free will, you can have that, choice, you can be that, but seen from the point of the absolute there is no change, no choice, and no free will. The Self is forever complete and indestructible. We are that Self. " I take birth through My own Maya " means *we* take birth through our own Maya. The Self and us are not two. /AL > > /AL / M > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 God has NO WILL.... It is u who say It is Gods Will .. Masti [mastteddy] Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:28 AM Nisargadatta Re: Re: No-mind my replies in bold within urs anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: I like to see my will and God's will as being exactly the same thing. Then this would mean that also Osama Bin Laden's will and God's will are One and the same. Yes! That is what I feel. This One Will is taking care of everything. ok I can understand that. Its the same as asking why did God let this happen , why did God let Osama kill. But you know here is the catch of it - Just as there is a Osama , there is a Maharaja rt..so if all will is one will , then dont you see the balancing act going on ..which somebody somewhere is doing...and if we assume that all this is God's Lila ..then it makes all the more sense ..doesnt it? When I use my will to write a post, it is of course my free will that is in action, but how can that will be different from God's will? Its not different ! but in this Lila, there is a choice and when you use your free will , you make a choice. Lets says there is a riot on the street and everybody is throwing stones and stuff..now you have a choice, you either join in , scoot or try to save as many people as you can..isnt it? God's Lila is what we say, " aprampar " its all encompassing and within this wholeness, each has a role to play. God leaves you free to choose how you want to play this role - by making negative choices / positive choices..these form our Karma.. ! Though i am not clear on the Karma and Kismet stuff but the above seems to me as a way to live. As far as I can tell, there cannot be any difference. If you are an atheist, you can replace 'God' with the 'Universe'. These are just labels, but I like to use the word God sometimes, because it is a better pointer to intelligence and love than the word 'Universe' which we can sometimes think of as only atoms being churned around in time and space. Sometimes it is better to use words like 'Universe' or All-there-is instead of the word 'God', because the word God has a history of meaning something that is not 'you', that there is God *plus* you. When I say God's will, I mean Totality unfolding. Yes. i agree and I use God too. Of course we should use our free will to make ourselves and the world better. Why not? I like to think that what I want is exactly what God wants. What George W. Bush wants is exactly what God wants. What Osama Bin Laden wants is exactly what God wants. It is just that God has lost himself/herself and are looking for itself, and all there is is God itself. This is Lila, God's game, and the playground is called Maya. So wonderfully infinite and advanced this Lila! :-) Anders! why go this deep into sickos like osama + bush etc etc ..lets keep it simple..for instance imagine a cookery class with give students. Each one is given a potato to cook in 5 minutes..The five can execrsie their will and choice - boil, saute, fry, bake, etc ! ( i ran out of cooking options)..Now where does poor God come in here..Each is exercising his choice! What is the meaning of Lila? I think that the idea is to create a very joyful and adventurous journey. And in order to do this, *we* must make Lila into what we want it to be, and that means using free will. Yes , here i completely agree with you And to *really* make things happen in the world we have to go as a human species into a balanced state of consciousness, where there is an awareness of the connection of everything *without* losing the sense of being able " to do what the heck I want to on a _totally_ egoistic level " . Well! every freedom has its limitations. Your fundamental right to swing your arm wildly STOPS when the other person's nose starts!! no? Oneness is worthless is it will hamper the sense of total personal freedom. I think we can find worth in dirt! and label Gita as worthless..Its our choice and free will /AL / M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Ramanath, Murali H \(MED\) " <Murali.Ramanath@g...> wrote: > God has NO WILL.... > It is u who say It is Gods Will .. > Of course he hasn't. Will is the instrument of disatisfaction. The only thing that can be willed is change, and wanting change means to be dissastified with what is. So if God is perfect by definition, and by definition he is all there is. Then Will is not needed. But, of course, this is academic, one of those conceptual plays Anders find childish delight in. God exist only as a definition in language, and as a craving for inmortality in the human mind. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Ramanath, Murali H \(MED\) " <Murali.Ramanath@g...> wrote: > God has NO WILL.... > It is u who say It is Gods Will .. I like to use the word happening instead of will. Life happens. And I like to call that happening as a totality God. Then we can divide the happening and say that this is my will, this is chance, this is good luck, that is bad luck, this is grace, this is the will of God, this is synchronicity, this is randomness, this is an accident, that is no accident e t c. But I like to see this happening as one wholeness in motion, and I have great fate in my belief that this wholeness is leading us to love and joy, that the whole movement *is* love pulling itself together out of its own shadow/chimera called fear and separation. /AL > > > > Masti [mastteddy] > Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:28 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: Re: No-mind > > > my replies in bold within urs > > anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > I like to see my will and God's will as being exactly the same thing. > Then this would mean that also Osama Bin Laden's will and God's will > are One and the same. Yes! That is what I feel. This One Will is > taking care of everything. > > ok I can understand that. Its the same as asking why did God let this happen , why did God let Osama kill. But you know here is the catch of it - Just as there is a Osama , there is a Maharaja rt..so if all will is one will , then dont you see the balancing act going on ..which somebody somewhere is doing...and if we assume that all this is God's Lila ..then it makes all the more sense ..doesnt it? > > When I use my will to write a post, it is > of course my free will that is in action, but how can that will be > different from God's will? > > Its not different ! but in this Lila, there is a choice and when you use your free will , you make a choice. Lets says there is a riot on the street and everybody is throwing stones and stuff..now you have a choice, you either join in , scoot or try to save as many people as you can..isnt it? God's Lila is what we say, " aprampar " its all encompassing and within this wholeness, each has a role to play. God leaves you free to choose how you want to play this role - by making negative choices / positive choices..these form our Karma.. ! Though i am not clear on the Karma and Kismet stuff but the above seems to me as a way to live. > > As far as I can tell, there cannot be any > difference. If you are an atheist, you can replace 'God' with > the 'Universe'. These are just labels, but I like to use the word God > sometimes, because it is a better pointer to intelligence and love > than the word 'Universe' which we can sometimes think of as only > atoms being churned around in time and space. Sometimes it is better > to use words like 'Universe' or All-there-is instead of the > word 'God', because the word God has a history of meaning something > that is not 'you', that there is God *plus* you. When I say God's > will, I mean Totality unfolding. > > > Yes. i agree and I use God too. > > > Of course we should use our free will to make ourselves and the world > better. Why not? I like to think that what I want is exactly what God > wants. What George W. Bush wants is exactly what God wants. What > Osama Bin Laden wants is exactly what God wants. It is just that God > has lost himself/herself and are looking for itself, and all there is > is God itself. This is Lila, God's game, and the playground is called > Maya. So wonderfully infinite and advanced this Lila! > > > :-) Anders! why go this deep into sickos like osama + bush etc etc ..lets keep it simple..for instance imagine a cookery class with give students. Each one is given a potato to cook in 5 minutes..The five can execrsie their will and choice - boil, saute, fry, bake, etc ! ( i ran out of cooking options)..Now where does poor God come in here..Each is exercising his choice! > What is the meaning of Lila? I think that the idea is to create a > very joyful and adventurous journey. And in order to do this, *we* > must make Lila into what we want it to be, and that means using free > will. > > Yes , here i completely agree with you > > And to *really* make things happen in the world we have to go > as a human species into a balanced state of consciousness, where > there is an awareness of the connection of everything *without* > losing the sense of being able " to do what the heck I want to on a > _totally_ egoistic level " . > > Well! every freedom has its limitations. Your fundamental right to swing your arm wildly STOPS when the other person's nose starts!! no? > > Oneness is worthless is it will hamper the > sense of total personal freedom. > > > I think we can find worth in dirt! and label Gita as worthless..Its our choice and free will > > /AL / M > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Ramanath, Murali H \(MED\) " > <Murali.Ramanath@g...> wrote: > > God has NO WILL.... > > It is u who say It is Gods Will .. > > > Of course he hasn't. Will is the instrument of disatisfaction. > The only thing that can be willed is change, and wanting change > means to be dissastified with what is. So if God is perfect by > definition, and by definition he is all there is. Then Will is not > needed. But, of course, this is academic, one of those conceptual > plays Anders find childish delight in. God exist only as a definition > in language, and as a craving for inmortality in the human mind. > > Pete We can divide will into (1) will for change to happen in the future, and (2) will for changing attention or focus of awareness in the present moment. The latter form of will is the opposite of dissatisfaction, it is delight and affection *now* without strain, fear or resistance, it is an opening and embracing of what is, a fierce, brilliant total awareness that is utterly clear and relaxed. This is my idea of what true will is. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Hello, > God has NO WILL....> Yes, if by God you mean the unity. > It is u who say It is Gods Will ..> Yes. There has to be an agreement on how one uses the word GOD, but far better to use the whole or unity to describe all that is, and ME or personal self etc to describe a being with all that beings inherentness. Kind Regards, Scott. > > > Masti [mastteddy] > Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:28 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: Re: No-mind > > > my replies in bold within urs > > anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > I like to see my will and God's will as being exactly the same thing. > Then this would mean that also Osama Bin Laden's will and God's will > are One and the same. Yes! That is what I feel. This One Will is > taking care of everything. > > ok I can understand that. Its the same as asking why did God let this happen , why did God let Osama kill. But you know here is the catch of it - Just as there is a Osama , there is a Maharaja rt..so if all will is one will , then dont you see the balancing act going on ..which somebody somewhere is doing...and if we assume that all this is God's Lila ..then it makes all the more sense ..doesnt it? > > When I use my will to write a post, it is > of course my free will that is in action, but how can that will be > different from God's will? > > Its not different ! but in this Lila, there is a choice and when you use your free will , you make a choice. Lets says there is a riot on the street and everybody is throwing stones and stuff..now you have a choice, you either join in , scoot or try to save as many people as you can..isnt it? God's Lila is what we say, " aprampar " its all encompassing and within this wholeness, each has a role to play. God leaves you free to choose how you want to play this role - by making negative choices / positive choices..these form our Karma.. ! Though i am not clear on the Karma and Kismet stuff but the above seems to me as a way to live. > > As far as I can tell, there cannot be any > difference. If you are an atheist, you can replace 'God' with > the 'Universe'. These are just labels, but I like to use the word God > sometimes, because it is a better pointer to intelligence and love > than the word 'Universe' which we can sometimes think of as only > atoms being churned around in time and space. Sometimes it is better > to use words like 'Universe' or All-there-is instead of the > word 'God', because the word God has a history of meaning something > that is not 'you', that there is God *plus* you. When I say God's > will, I mean Totality unfolding. > > > Yes. i agree and I use God too. > > > Of course we should use our free will to make ourselves and the world > better. Why not? I like to think that what I want is exactly what God > wants. What George W. Bush wants is exactly what God wants. What > Osama Bin Laden wants is exactly what God wants. It is just that God > has lost himself/herself and are looking for itself, and all there is > is God itself. This is Lila, God's game, and the playground is called > Maya. So wonderfully infinite and advanced this Lila! > > > :-) Anders! why go this deep into sickos like osama + bush etc etc ..lets keep it simple..for instance imagine a cookery class with give students. Each one is given a potato to cook in 5 minutes..The five can execrsie their will and choice - boil, saute, fry, bake, etc ! ( i ran out of cooking options)..Now where does poor God come in here..Each is exercising his choice! > What is the meaning of Lila? I think that the idea is to create a > very joyful and adventurous journey. And in order to do this, *we* > must make Lila into what we want it to be, and that means using free > will. > > Yes , here i completely agree with you > > And to *really* make things happen in the world we have to go > as a human species into a balanced state of consciousness, where > there is an awareness of the connection of everything *without* > losing the sense of being able " to do what the heck I want to on a > _totally_ egoistic level " . > > Well! every freedom has its limitations. Your fundamental right to swing your arm wildly STOPS when the other person's nose starts!! no? > > Oneness is worthless is it will hamper the > sense of total personal freedom. > > > I think we can find worth in dirt! and label Gita as worthless..Its our choice and free will > > /AL / M > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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