Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, just seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion in the brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the animal way, natural meditation. Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is required is pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, a total indwelling of the body. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Thanks Pete, This whole enlightenment thing has to get demystified, stripped of any culture's influences in the sense of freedom from cultivation. Our Christian upbringing tells us that we are born as animals and only through cultivation we get more and more human. The original " beast " is transformed into a " human being " . When you hear comments about a mass murderer there is often spoken of that he is an animal and not a human. And I really go with you Pete, because I too tend to think that realization is releasing the original animal from the grips of conditioning/ego, from the grips of moral and culture, stripped of that which is called " human " . U.G. often spoke of the " natural man " and - that's it ! Werner Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, just > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion in the > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the animal > way, natural meditation. > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is required is > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, a > total indwelling of the body. > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Thanks Pete, > > This whole enlightenment thing has to get demystified, stripped of > any culture's influences in the sense of freedom from cultivation. > > Our Christian upbringing tells us that we are born as animals and > only through cultivation we get more and more human. The > original " beast " is transformed into a " human being " . When you hear > comments about a mass murderer there is often spoken of that he is an > animal and not a human. > > And I really go with you Pete, because I too tend to think that > realization is releasing the original animal from the grips of > conditioning/ego, from the grips of moral and culture, stripped of > that which is called " human " . > > U.G. often spoke of the " natural man " and - that's it ! > > Werner Exactly. It's not that thinking is incompatible with realization. It's that for most people thinking has become endemic, thinking has become the activity where life happens. Those people have lost touch with how being phisycally present with a silent, alert mind feels. It's all about presence, there is an inefable presence, which seems to engulf the universe, but that is sensed thru bodily presence, not thru ideation. Pete > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, just > > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion in the > > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the > animal > > way, natural meditation. > > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And > > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is required > is > > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, a > > total indwelling of the body. > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 I couldn't disagree more. Enlightened beings like Jesus, Buddha, Paul or Ramana Maharshi are never described as animal like. Quite the reverse. They are known for their gentleness, love and kindness. Animals for example, have absolutely no hesitation in ripping each other to pieces given half a chance. Yes, they are nice to their babies, but if their hormones were altered by 1%, they would eat them too. That goes for dolphins too. Their minds might be every bit as cluttered as human beings. Until they learn to speak (don't hold your breath), we'll never know. They are also stupid and ignorant (they can't even read!!). I have nothing against animals, but I wouldn't let my daughter marry one. Jesus is a step up from the average human being, not down. Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, just > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion in the > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the animal > way, natural meditation. > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is required is > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, a > total indwelling of the body. > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Hi Eric, Disagreement brings more life into a discussion, thanks for joining. Why was Jesus called " The lamb of God " ?. Why was Ramanas cow Lakshmi his favorite companion and he called her being enlightened. Do you think she was the only enligthtened cow arround ? Why did Jesus state if you get again as little children you will enter the kingdom of heavens ? It are these " animal " qualities we are born with, Pete and I were writing of and not the qualities of some rats biting your ear of when you are sleeping - how laughable. Why don't you give Pete and me some more credit of intelligence ? Werner Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > I couldn't disagree more. Enlightened beings like Jesus, Buddha, Paul > or Ramana Maharshi are never described as animal like. Quite the > reverse. They are known for their gentleness, love and kindness. > > Animals for example, have absolutely no hesitation in ripping each > other to pieces given half a chance. Yes, they are nice to their > babies, but if their hormones were altered by 1%, they would eat them > too. That goes for dolphins too. > > Their minds might be every bit as cluttered as human beings. Until > they learn to speak (don't hold your breath), we'll never know. They > are also stupid and ignorant (they can't even read!!). I have nothing > against animals, but I wouldn't let my daughter marry one. > > > Jesus is a step up from the average human being, not down. > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, just > > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion in the > > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the > animal > > way, natural meditation. > > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And > > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is required > is > > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, a > > total indwelling of the body. > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Hi Eric, > > Disagreement brings more life into a discussion, thanks for joining. > > Why was Jesus called " The lamb of God " ?. Why was Ramanas cow Lakshmi > his favorite companion and he called her being enlightened. Do you > think she was the only enligthtened cow arround ? Jesus was called " The lamb of God " because he was the blood sacrfice for the sins of men. It was a metaphor. Ramana obviously liked the cow, but I doubt he believed she was enlightened. Cows don't understand anything very much apart from grass. They eat grass all the time, they don't even watch TV. Cows are actually pretty nasty to each other at times if you watch them. Around humans, they're different because they don't have to compete. They are beautiful creatures and generally very gentle, so I understand Ramana's attraction to them. > > Why did Jesus state if you get again as little children you will > enter the kingdom of heavens ? > He was referring to the 'empty', pure innocent mind needed for liberation. It was a metaphor > It are these " animal " qualities we are born with, Pete and I were > writing of and not the qualities of some rats biting your ear of when > you are sleeping - how laughable. Why don't you give Pete and me some > more credit of intelligence ? I still completely disagree, I am strongly influenced by theosophy which explains why. > > Werner > > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > > I couldn't disagree more. Enlightened beings like Jesus, Buddha, > Paul > > or Ramana Maharshi are never described as animal like. Quite the > > reverse. They are known for their gentleness, love and kindness. > > > > Animals for example, have absolutely no hesitation in ripping each > > other to pieces given half a chance. Yes, they are nice to their > > babies, but if their hormones were altered by 1%, they would eat > them > > too. That goes for dolphins too. > > > > Their minds might be every bit as cluttered as human beings. Until > > they learn to speak (don't hold your breath), we'll never know. > They > > are also stupid and ignorant (they can't even read!!). I have > nothing > > against animals, but I wouldn't let my daughter marry one. > > > > > > Jesus is a step up from the average human being, not down. > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > wrote: > > > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, > just > > > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion in > the > > > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the > > animal > > > way, natural meditation. > > > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > > > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And > > > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > > > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is > required > > is > > > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > > > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, > a > > > total indwelling of the body. > > > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > I couldn't disagree more. Enlightened beings like Jesus, Buddha, Paul > or Ramana Maharshi are never described as animal like. Quite the > reverse. They are known for their gentleness, love and kindness. > > Animals for example, have absolutely no hesitation in ripping each > other to pieces given half a chance. Yes, they are nice to their > babies, but if their hormones were altered by 1%, they would eat them > too. That goes for dolphins too. > > Their minds might be every bit as cluttered as human beings. Until > they learn to speak (don't hold your breath), we'll never know. They > are also stupid and ignorant (they can't even read!!). I have nothing > against animals, but I wouldn't let my daughter marry one. > > > Jesus is a step up from the average human being, not down. I think it is an evolutionary ladder going on like this: (1) Animal [no thinking] -> (2) Egoic human [thinking] -> (3) Selfless human [intuition], where intuition is the state of " pure animal sensitivity, sensuality,... " *within* a state of knowing that is deeper and more intelligent than the intellect, or, rather where the intellect is only a small tool in a larger field of awareness. What I mean by 'selfless' is that the egoic sense of self has been transcended and revealed as an illusion. You only need to be selfish when you are afraid, when you are in a state of lack, discontent, feeling of inferiority e t c. All negative emotions stem from fear which stems from the idea of being a separate temporary entity. Intuition is a fearless state. /AL > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, just > > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion in the > > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the > animal > > way, natural meditation. > > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And > > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is required > is > > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, a > > total indwelling of the body. > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Exactly my attitude too, Anders Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > > > Disagreement brings more life into a discussion, thanks for joining. > > > > Why was Jesus called " The lamb of God " ?. Why was Ramanas cow > Lakshmi > > his favorite companion and he called her being enlightened. Do you > > think she was the only enligthtened cow arround ? > > Jesus was called " The lamb of God " because he was the blood sacrfice > for the sins of men. It was a metaphor. Ramana obviously liked the > cow, but I doubt he believed she was enlightened. > > Cows don't understand anything very much apart from grass. They eat > grass all the time, they don't even watch TV. Cows are actually > pretty nasty to each other at times if you watch them. Around humans, > they're different because they don't have to compete. They are > beautiful creatures and generally very gentle, so I understand > Ramana's attraction to them. > > > > > > Why did Jesus state if you get again as little children you will > > enter the kingdom of heavens ? > > > > He was referring to the 'empty', pure innocent mind needed for > liberation. It was a metaphor P: That's what I was referring to, too. I also used a meta4, but you seem to have a literal mind, which is why you need to become more cow-like, but stay away from bull. > > > > It are these " animal " qualities we are born with, Pete and I were > > writing of and not the qualities of some rats biting your ear of > when > > you are sleeping - how laughable. Why don't you give Pete and me > some > > more credit of intelligence ? > > I still completely disagree, I am strongly influenced by theosophy > which explains why. P: Need I say more! > > > > > > > Werner > > > > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > > > I couldn't disagree more. Enlightened beings like Jesus, Buddha, > > Paul > > > or Ramana Maharshi are never described as animal like. Quite the > > > reverse. They are known for their gentleness, love and kindness. > > > > > > Animals for example, have absolutely no hesitation in ripping > each > > > other to pieces given half a chance. Yes, they are nice to their > > > babies, but if their hormones were altered by 1%, they would eat > > them > > > too. That goes for dolphins too. > > > > > > Their minds might be every bit as cluttered as human beings. > Until > > > they learn to speak (don't hold your breath), we'll never know. > > They > > > are also stupid and ignorant (they can't even read!!). I have > > nothing > > > against animals, but I wouldn't let my daughter marry one. > > > > > > > > > Jesus is a step up from the average human being, not down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > > wrote: > > > > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, > > just > > > > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion in > > the > > > > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the > > > animal > > > > way, natural meditation. > > > > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > > > > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. > And > > > > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > > > > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is > > required > > > is > > > > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > > > > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total > immersion, > > a > > > > total indwelling of the body. > > > > > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Reedited. --------- Dear Eric, You see " lamb " as a metaphor and and I see " animal " as a metaphor. That the word animal triggers your theosophical influences is no reason not to walk for some time in the shoes of others and see what is behind their words they are using. Maybe you will see that the wall which separates us are just conventions we are conditioned with. BTW, I was attending over many years J.Krishnamurti's meetings and discussions and because I was always sitting in the very front where he was speaking I could watch and observe him closely. And once I was asked how I would define J.K. best and I answered " I always saw him as an animal " . The word animal I am using as a metaphor means: To be genuine, unspoilt, innocent, true and honest. Maybe you know that te word religion is Latin and means translated " To be bound back " . The Indian word Yoga is similar to the English word " Yoke " . Again this being bound back. Bound back to what ? To the Thesopical society, to Buddhism, to Jove or Christ ? Or doesn't it mean to be bound back to that what we are born as, God's creatures, innocent, true, genuine, loving ? Werner Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > > > Disagreement brings more life into a discussion, thanks for joining. > > > > Why was Jesus called " The lamb of God " ?. Why was Ramanas cow > Lakshmi > > his favorite companion and he called her being enlightened. Do you > > think she was the only enligthtened cow arround ? > > Jesus was called " The lamb of God " because he was the blood sacrfice > for the sins of men. It was a metaphor. Ramana obviously liked the > cow, but I doubt he believed she was enlightened. > > Cows don't understand anything very much apart from grass. They eat > grass all the time, they don't even watch TV. Cows are actually > pretty nasty to each other at times if you watch them. Around humans, > they're different because they don't have to compete. They are > beautiful creatures and generally very gentle, so I understand > Ramana's attraction to them. > > > > > > Why did Jesus state if you get again as little children you will > > enter the kingdom of heavens ? > > > > He was referring to the 'empty', pure innocent mind needed for > liberation. It was a metaphor > > > > It are these " animal " qualities we are born with, Pete and I were > > writing of and not the qualities of some rats biting your ear of > when > > you are sleeping - how laughable. Why don't you give Pete and me > some > > more credit of intelligence ? > > I still completely disagree, I am strongly influenced by theosophy > which explains why. > > > > > > > Werner > > > > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > > > I couldn't disagree more. Enlightened beings like Jesus, Buddha, > > Paul > > > or Ramana Maharshi are never described as animal like. Quite the > > > reverse. They are known for their gentleness, love and kindness. > > > > > > Animals for example, have absolutely no hesitation in ripping > each > > > other to pieces given half a chance. Yes, they are nice to their > > > babies, but if their hormones were altered by 1%, they would eat > > them > > > too. That goes for dolphins too. > > > > > > Their minds might be every bit as cluttered as human beings. > Until > > > they learn to speak (don't hold your breath), we'll never know. > > They > > > are also stupid and ignorant (they can't even read!!). I have > > nothing > > > against animals, but I wouldn't let my daughter marry one. > > > > > > > > > Jesus is a step up from the average human being, not down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > > wrote: > > > > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, > > just > > > > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion in > > the > > > > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the > > > animal > > > > way, natural meditation. > > > > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > > > > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. > And > > > > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > > > > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is > > required > > > is > > > > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > > > > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total > immersion, > > a > > > > total indwelling of the body. > > > > > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 That isn't at all what you said which was " Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of knowledge, and the practice of virtue. " In reality what is required is pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, a total indwelling of the body. " That isn't a metaphor. It is clearly saying that animal consciousness is superior to human consciousnes which as Anders pointed in a few simple words is completely wrong. have a nice day. Eric Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > Hi Eric, > > > > > > Disagreement brings more life into a discussion, thanks for > joining. > > > > > > Why was Jesus called " The lamb of God " ?. Why was Ramanas & #65007;cow & #65007; > > & #65007;Lakshmi & #65007; > > > his favorite companion and he called her being & #65007;enlightened & #65007;. Do > you > > > think she was the only enligthtened & #65007;cow & #65007; arround ? > > > > Jesus was called " The lamb of God " because he was the blood > sacrfice > > for the sins of men. It was a metaphor. & #65007;Ramana & #65007; obviously liked the > > & #65007;cow & #65007;, but I doubt he believed she was & #65007;enlightened & #65007;. > > > > Cows don't understand anything very much apart from grass. They eat > > grass all the time, they don't even watch TV. Cows are actually > > pretty nasty to each other at times if you watch them. Around > humans, > > they're different because they don't have to compete. They are > > beautiful creatures and generally very gentle, so I understand > > Ramana's attraction to them. > > > > > > > > > > Why did Jesus state if you get again as little children you will > > > enter the kingdom of heavens ? > > > > > > > He was referring to the 'empty', pure innocent mind needed for > > liberation. It was a metaphor > > P: That's what I was referring to, too. I also used a meta4, but > you seem to have a literal mind, which is why you need to become > more & #65007;cow & #65007;-like, but stay away from bull. > > > > > > > > It are these " animal " qualities we are born with, Pete and I were > > > writing of and not the qualities of some rats biting your ear of > > when > > > you are sleeping - how laughable. Why don't you give Pete and me > > some > > > more credit of intelligence ? > > > > I still completely disagree, I am strongly influenced by theosophy > > which explains why. > > > P: Need I say more! > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> > wrote: > > > > I couldn't disagree more. & #65007;Enlightened & #65007; beings like Jesus, > Buddha, > > > Paul > > > > or & #65007;Ramana & #65007; Maharshi are never described as animal like. Quite > the > > > > reverse. They are known for their gentleness, love and kindness. > > > > > > > > Animals for example, have absolutely no hesitation in ripping > > each > > > > other to pieces given half a chance. Yes, they are nice to > their > > > > babies, but if their hormones were altered by 1%, they would > eat > > > them > > > > too. That goes for dolphins too. > > > > > > > > Their minds might be every bit as cluttered as human beings. > > Until > > > > they learn to speak (don't hold your breath), we'll never know. > > > They > > > > are also stupid and ignorant (they can't even read!!). I have > > > nothing > > > > against animals, but I wouldn't let my daughter marry one. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus is a step up from the average human being, not down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > > > wrote: > > > > > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, > > > just > > > > > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion > in > > > the > > > > > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the > > > > animal > > > > > way, natural meditation. > > > > > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin > to > > > > > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. > > And > > > > > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > > > > > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is > > > required > > > > is > > > > > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack > of > > > > > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total > > immersion, > > > a > > > > > total indwelling of the body. > > > > > > > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > That isn't at all what you said which was > > " Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. > > " In reality what is required is > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, a > total indwelling of the body. " > > > That isn't a metaphor. It is clearly saying that animal consciousness > is superior to human consciousnes which as Anders pointed in a few > simple words is completely wrong. > > have a nice day. > > Eric Yes, you are right. those two paragraphs are not metaphorical, they are facts. You are an animal,( unless you view yourself as a machine) and your consciousness is no different than that of a chimp. You might be more intelligent than a chimp, more knowlegeable, but no more conscious. In fact, a chimp, or a child's consciousness might have a sharpness, a freshness that yours lack. The consciousness of a human adult is so encrusted with thought, that it could be said, an adult experiences the world thru a glass darkly. Pete than that of an animal > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Eric, > > > > > > > > Disagreement brings more life into a discussion, thanks for > > joining. > > > > > > > > Why was Jesus called " The lamb of God " ?. Why was Ramanas & #65007;cow & #65007; > > > & #65007;Lakshmi & #65007; > > > > his favorite companion and he called her being & #65007;enlightened & #65007;. Do > > you > > > > think she was the only enligthtened & #65007;cow & #65007; arround ? > > > > > > Jesus was called " The lamb of God " because he was the blood > > sacrfice > > > for the sins of men. It was a metaphor. & #65007;Ramana & #65007; obviously liked > the > > > & #65007;cow & #65007;, but I doubt he believed she was & #65007;enlightened & #65007;. > > > > > > Cows don't understand anything very much apart from grass. They > eat > > > grass all the time, they don't even watch TV. Cows are actually > > > pretty nasty to each other at times if you watch them. Around > > humans, > > > they're different because they don't have to compete. They are > > > beautiful creatures and generally very gentle, so I understand > > > Ramana's attraction to them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why did Jesus state if you get again as little children you > will > > > > enter the kingdom of heavens ? > > > > > > > > > > He was referring to the 'empty', pure innocent mind needed for > > > liberation. It was a metaphor > > > > P: That's what I was referring to, too. I also used a meta4, but > > you seem to have a literal mind, which is why you need to become > > more & #65007;cow & #65007;-like, but stay away from bull. > > > > > > > > > > > > It are these " animal " qualities we are born with, Pete and I > were > > > > writing of and not the qualities of some rats biting your ear > of > > > when > > > > you are sleeping - how laughable. Why don't you give Pete and > me > > > some > > > > more credit of intelligence ? > > > > > > I still completely disagree, I am strongly influenced by > theosophy > > > which explains why. > > > > > > P: Need I say more! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> > > wrote: > > > > > I couldn't disagree more. & #65007;Enlightened & #65007; beings like Jesus, > > Buddha, > > > > Paul > > > > > or & #65007;Ramana & #65007; Maharshi are never described as animal like. Quite > > the > > > > > reverse. They are known for their gentleness, love and > kindness. > > > > > > > > > > Animals for example, have absolutely no hesitation in > ripping > > > each > > > > > other to pieces given half a chance. Yes, they are nice to > > their > > > > > babies, but if their hormones were altered by 1%, they would > > eat > > > > them > > > > > too. That goes for dolphins too. > > > > > > > > > > Their minds might be every bit as cluttered as human beings. > > > Until > > > > > they learn to speak (don't hold your breath), we'll never > know. > > > > They > > > > > are also stupid and ignorant (they can't even read!!). I have > > > > nothing > > > > > against animals, but I wouldn't let my daughter marry one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus is a step up from the average human being, not down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " > <Pedsie2@a...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a > rock, > > > > just > > > > > > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion > > in > > > > the > > > > > > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's > the > > > > > animal > > > > > > way, natural meditation. > > > > > > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin > > to > > > > > > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or > ubermensch.. > > > And > > > > > > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition > of > > > > > > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is > > > > required > > > > > is > > > > > > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a > lack > > of > > > > > > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total > > > immersion, > > > > a > > > > > > total indwelling of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 " Yes, you are right. those two paragraphs are not metaphorical, they are facts. You are an animal,( unless you view yourself as a machine) and your consciousness is no different than that of a chimp. You might be more intelligent than a chimp, more knowlegeable, but no more conscious. In fact, a chimp, or a child's consciousness might have a sharpness, a freshness that yours lack. The consciousness of a human adult is so encrusted with thought, that it could be said, an adult experiences the world thru a glass darkly. " Sure thing Pete, please point me at the chimp equivalent to the Baghavad Gita or " The Joshua Tree " . cheers Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Hi, Well, your thoughts below have provoked a bit of a response, which is great! I don't agree with your use of an animal to explain this, and saying that the animal way is 'natural meditation', or the notion of 'animal sensitivity' being required, but I agree with what you are trying to point out > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a rock, just > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a notion in the > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's the animal > way, natural meditation> = Non-conceptualizing and non-thinking, about what one has to achieve, do, become, explanations, whys, wherefores, and thoughts about self and other etc > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. = Striving, acheiving, a sense of *something* to accomplish or a state to reside in, the notion that one must or has to do something in order to acheive a certain something that is perceived as a goal to which one is going toward and to which one will finally arrive etc. In reality what is required is > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, a > total indwelling of the body. = A non-dwelling or non-conceptualizing mind, a mind not caught in conceptualization and thought and a ME not bound ( to itself ). Non- subjectification. Kind Regards, Scott. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > " Yes, you are right. those two paragraphs are not metaphorical, they > are facts. You are an animal,( unless you view yourself as a machine) > and your consciousness is no different than that of a chimp. You might > be more intelligent than a chimp, more knowlegeable, but no more > conscious. In fact, a chimp, or a child's consciousness might have a > sharpness, a freshness that yours lack. The consciousness of a human > adult is so encrusted with thought, that it could be said, an adult > experiences the world thru a glass darkly. " > > Sure thing Pete, please point me at the chimp equivalent to the > Baghavad Gita or " The Joshua Tree " . > > > cheers > > Eric LOL. You're eating the skin, and throwing the banana away. The Gita and the Bible are the skin. Be still, be silent, be attentive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 Pete, that's a good one ! " LOL. You're eating the skin, and throwing the banana away. The Gita and the Bible are the skin. Be still, be silent, be attentive! " To add: This topic of discussion is a very common one. I already had it several times before: The humanoid as the coronation of creation. Being proud of flying to the moon, reaching to the stars, technology and culture - megalomania versus seeing one's real roots. It is almost impossible to discuss this with a person being so proud of being a human and not an animal and who doesn't see that this way of thinking is nothing else than self-adulation and self-glorification. Werner Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > > " Yes, you are right. those two paragraphs are not metaphorical, they > > are facts. You are an animal,( unless you view yourself as a > machine) > > and your consciousness is no different than that of a chimp. You > might > > be more intelligent than a chimp, more knowlegeable, but no more > > conscious. In fact, a chimp, or a child's consciousness might have a > > sharpness, a freshness that yours lack. The consciousness of a human > > adult is so encrusted with thought, that it could be said, an adult > > experiences the world thru a glass darkly. " > > > > Sure thing Pete, please point me at the chimp equivalent to the > > Baghavad Gita or " The Joshua Tree " . > > > > > > cheers > > > > Eric > > LOL. You're eating the skin, and throwing the banana away. The > Gita and the Bible are the skin. Be still, be silent, be attentive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > > That isn't at all what you said which was > > > > " Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is akin to > > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or ubermensch.. And > > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition of > > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. > > > > " In reality what is required is > > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a lack of > > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total immersion, a > > total indwelling of the body. " > > > > > > That isn't a metaphor. It is clearly saying that animal > consciousness > > is superior to human consciousnes which as Anders pointed in a few > > simple words is completely wrong. > > > > have a nice day. > > > > Eric > > Yes, you are right. those two paragraphs are not metaphorical, they > are facts. You are an animal,( unless you view yourself as a machine) > and your consciousness is no different than that of a chimp. You might > be more intelligent than a chimp, more knowlegeable, but no more > conscious. In fact, a chimp, or a child's consciousness might have a > sharpness, a freshness that yours lack. The consciousness of a human > adult is so encrusted with thought, that it could be said, an adult > experiences the world thru a glass darkly. > > Pete > than that of an animal Jesus Christ said " I and the Father are one " or something like that. I say: " I and the Matrix are one " . I am a machine! The infinite Timeless Matrix, indestructible, with infinite computing power and with the overwhelming capability to create universes within the blink of an eye. If you had but the faith of a mustard seed, then you could say to that mountain, " go and jump into the sea " , and it will do that. Jesus Christ said: " Everything I can do, you will do also, and more. " The sky is the limit, but is there a limit to the infinite? ;-) /AL > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Eric, > > > > > > > > > > Disagreement brings more life into a discussion, thanks for > > > joining. > > > > > > > > > > Why was Jesus called " The lamb of God " ?. Why was Ramanas > & #65007;cow & #65007; > > > > & #65007;Lakshmi & #65007; > > > > > his favorite companion and he called her being > & #65007;enlightened & #65007;. Do > > > you > > > > > think she was the only enligthtened & #65007;cow & #65007; > arround ? > > > > > > > > Jesus was called " The lamb of God " because he was the blood > > > sacrfice > > > > for the sins of men. It was a metaphor. & #65007;Ramana & #65007; > obviously liked > > the > > > > & #65007;cow & #65007;, but I doubt he believed she was > & #65007;enlightened & #65007;. > > > > > > > > Cows don't understand anything very much apart from grass. They > > eat > > > > grass all the time, they don't even watch TV. Cows are actually > > > > pretty nasty to each other at times if you watch them. Around > > > humans, > > > > they're different because they don't have to compete. They are > > > > beautiful creatures and generally very gentle, so I understand > > > > Ramana's attraction to them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why did Jesus state if you get again as little children you > > will > > > > > enter the kingdom of heavens ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > He was referring to the 'empty', pure innocent mind needed for > > > > liberation. It was a metaphor > > > > > > P: That's what I was referring to, too. I also used a meta4, but > > > you seem to have a literal mind, which is why you need to become > > > more & #65007;cow & #65007;-like, but stay away from bull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It are these " animal " qualities we are born with, Pete and I > > were > > > > > writing of and not the qualities of some rats biting your ear > > of > > > > when > > > > > you are sleeping - how laughable. Why don't you give Pete and > > me > > > > some > > > > > more credit of intelligence ? > > > > > > > > I still completely disagree, I am strongly influenced by > > theosophy > > > > which explains why. > > > > > > > > > P: Need I say more! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> > > > wrote: > > > > > > I couldn't disagree more. & #65007;Enlightened & #65007; > beings like Jesus, > > > Buddha, > > > > > Paul > > > > > > or & #65007;Ramana & #65007; Maharshi are never described as > animal like. Quite > > > the > > > > > > reverse. They are known for their gentleness, love and > > kindness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals for example, have absolutely no hesitation in > > ripping > > > > each > > > > > > other to pieces given half a chance. Yes, they are nice to > > > their > > > > > > babies, but if their hormones were altered by 1%, they > would > > > eat > > > > > them > > > > > > too. That goes for dolphins too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Their minds might be every bit as cluttered as human > beings. > > > > Until > > > > > > they learn to speak (don't hold your breath), we'll never > > know. > > > > > They > > > > > > are also stupid and ignorant (they can't even read!!). I > have > > > > > nothing > > > > > > against animals, but I wouldn't let my daughter marry one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus is a step up from the average human being, not down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " > > <Pedsie2@a...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Like an animal, a beast, a bird, a lizard perched on a > > rock, > > > > > just > > > > > > > seeing, hearing, sensing, just being there without a > notion > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > brain, apperceiving what is, being the eye of God, that's > > the > > > > > > animal > > > > > > > way, natural meditation. > > > > > > > Most people have this notion that the spiritual way is > akin > > > to > > > > > > > progress, an evolution into a superior being, or > > ubermensch.. > > > > And > > > > > > > that this evolution, requires discipline, the acquisition > > of > > > > > > > knowledge, and the practice of virtue. In reality what is > > > > > required > > > > > > is > > > > > > > pure animal sensitivity, sensuality, (in the sense of a > > lack > > > of > > > > > > > intellectual, spiritual, or moral connotation) a total > > > > immersion, > > > > > a > > > > > > > total indwelling of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 > Jesus Christ said " I and the Father are one " or something like that. > I say: " I and the Matrix are one " . I am a machine! The infinite > Timeless Matrix, indestructible, with infinite computing power and > with the overwhelming capability to create universes within the blink > of an eye. If you had but the faith of a mustard seed, then you could > say to that mountain, " go and jump into the sea " , and it will do > that. Jesus Christ said: " Everything I can do, you will do also, and > more. " The sky is the limit, but is there a limit to the infinite? ;-) > > /AL > You are raving! Were not you supposed to try not talk to yourself today? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Pete, that's a good one ! > > " LOL. You're eating the skin, and throwing the banana away. The > Gita and the Bible are the skin. Be still, be silent, be attentive! " > > To add: > This topic of discussion is a very common one. I already had it > several times before: The humanoid as the coronation of creation. > Being proud of flying to the moon, reaching to the stars, technology > and culture - megalomania versus seeing one's real roots. It is > almost impossible to discuss this with a person being so proud of > being a human and not an animal and who doesn't see that this way of > thinking is nothing else than self-adulation and self-glorification. > > Werner Yes, at the root of all these endless speculations, is the fallacy that if we could only explain and understand 'what is' that would be realization. That would open the gates of Heaven, and end all suffering. It's not that after realization, everything is understood, it's that after realization all questions, all explanations, are seen as irrelevant. Pete > > > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > > > " Yes, you are right. those two paragraphs are not metaphorical, > they > > > are facts. You are an animal,( unless you view yourself as a > > machine) > > > and your consciousness is no different than that of a chimp. You > > might > > > be more intelligent than a chimp, more knowlegeable, but no more > > > conscious. In fact, a chimp, or a child's consciousness might > have a > > > sharpness, a freshness that yours lack. The consciousness of a > human > > > adult is so encrusted with thought, that it could be said, an > adult > > > experiences the world thru a glass darkly. " > > > > > > Sure thing Pete, please point me at the chimp equivalent to the > > > Baghavad Gita or " The Joshua Tree " . > > > > > > > > > cheers > > > > > > Eric > > > > LOL. You're eating the skin, and throwing the banana away. The > > Gita and the Bible are the skin. Be still, be silent, be attentive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 Sorry Pete It's still nonsense. if you want to be an animal, why not have a full frontal lobotomy. It will save you having to control your (non) mind. The idea that blank consciousness is the goal is a gross and naive misunderstanding of spiritual teaching. The goal is fullness (pleroma), not emptiness. Here is how Sri Murungar described his enlightenment, does he sound like an empty headed monkey ? 32. Through the light of inquiry into the nature of the Self, which is True spiritual practice, and through the precious words of my teacher, who is established in the state of Holy Silence wherein Liberation has its origin, my soul has tasted the nectar of union with the auspicious one who destroys illusion in the state of bliss beyond duality, merging into the all-transcending oneness of His Grace. 38. Deeply absorbed in the state of Holy Silence which Reality's perfect Light illumines, filled with the exaltation of the non-dual state, my consciousness merged with the Lord and I became one with Him, winning the greatest reward of all, to dwell in final Bliss, beyond birth and death. 39. As the struggle between desire and aversion came to and end, I ceased to invoke in mere words `the one True Godhead', and as the Light of Reality which is truly sublime grew ever brighter within my Heart, I attained that state of Grace, which is to dwell unwearyingly in Holy Silence. 40. My poor helpless mind was swept along in the swirling torrent of objective phenomena until my Lord guided my deluded understanding into the broad calm of his Holy Silence so that the Light of His majesty shone in my Heart. 42. My divine Lord and Grace-bestowing Teacher replaced the loathsome darkness of my mind's delusion with the clear Light of divine Knowledge so that my understanding overflowed with praise to His glorious Reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Jesus Christ said " I and the Father are one " or something like > that. > > I say: " I and the Matrix are one " . I am a machine! The infinite > > Timeless Matrix, indestructible, with infinite computing power and > > with the overwhelming capability to create universes within the > blink > > of an eye. If you had but the faith of a mustard seed, then you > could > > say to that mountain, " go and jump into the sea " , and it will do > > that. Jesus Christ said: " Everything I can do, you will do also, > and > > more. " The sky is the limit, but is there a limit to the > infinite? ;-) > > > > /AL > > > > You are raving! Were not you supposed to try not talk to yourself > today? ) My words come fram a state of pure Presence, there is no 'me' involved. Just kidding. I guess I failed to stop my inner ranting. :-) /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: > Sorry Pete > > It's still nonsense. if you want to be an animal, why not have a full > frontal lobotomy. It will save you having to control your (non) mind. > > The idea that blank consciousness is the goal is a gross and naive > misunderstanding of spiritual teaching. The goal is fullness > (pleroma), not emptiness. > > Here is how Sri Murungar described his enlightenment, does he sound > like an empty headed monkey ? One may perhaps not describe 'Holy Silence' as being an empty headed monkey, but the word silence point to something. Normally we have thinking going on all the time in our mind: " I must not forget to buy more milk today...I wonder why Sara said that to me and the other people at the office today. She just want to make herself appear good and push me down into the mud. Ouch! Why does my back still hurts? Maybe I must go and see a doctor... " And on and on and on. This is of course called the 'inner dialogue' or the 'chattering monkey'. Holy Silence probably means that this chattering monkey is quiet for most of the time and only heard when needed - the master uses the intellect as a tool when needed, instead of being a slave to the intellect (the chattering monkey). /AL > > 32. Through the light of inquiry into the nature of the Self, which > is True spiritual practice, and through the precious words of my > teacher, who is established in the state of Holy Silence wherein > Liberation has its origin, my soul has tasted the nectar of union > with the auspicious one who destroys illusion in the state of bliss > beyond duality, merging into the all-transcending oneness of His > Grace. > > 38. Deeply absorbed in the state of Holy Silence which Reality's > perfect Light illumines, filled with the exaltation of the non-dual > state, my consciousness merged with the Lord and I became one with > Him, winning the greatest reward of all, to dwell in final Bliss, > beyond birth and death. > > 39. As the struggle between desire and aversion came to and end, I > ceased to invoke in mere words `the one True Godhead', and as the > Light of Reality which is truly sublime grew ever brighter within my > Heart, I attained that state of Grace, which is to dwell unwearyingly > in Holy Silence. > > 40. My poor helpless mind was swept along in the swirling torrent of > objective phenomena until my Lord guided my deluded understanding > into the broad calm of his Holy Silence so that the Light of His > majesty shone in my Heart. > > 42. My divine Lord and Grace-bestowing Teacher replaced the loathsome > darkness of my mind's delusion with the clear Light of divine > Knowledge so that my understanding overflowed with praise to His > glorious Reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 Nisargadatta , " erici44 " <erici44> wrote: You're right Eric he doesn't sound like a monkey, he doesn't sound like a realized being, either. He sounds like you, like a guy who is talking from hearsay, and superficial self-induced samadhi. Pete > Sorry Pete > > It's still nonsense. if you want to be an animal, why not have a full > frontal lobotomy. It will save you having to control your (non) mind. > > The idea that blank consciousness is the goal is a gross and naive > misunderstanding of spiritual teaching. The goal is fullness > (pleroma), not emptiness. > > Here is how Sri Murungar described his enlightenment, does he sound > like an empty headed monkey ? > > 32. Through the light of inquiry into the nature of the Self, which > is True spiritual practice, and through the precious words of my > teacher, who is established in the state of Holy Silence wherein > Liberation has its origin, my soul has tasted the nectar of union > with the auspicious one who destroys illusion in the state of bliss > beyond duality, merging into the all-transcending oneness of His > Grace. > > 38. Deeply absorbed in the state of Holy Silence which Reality's > perfect Light illumines, filled with the exaltation of the non-dual > state, my consciousness merged with the Lord and I became one with > Him, winning the greatest reward of all, to dwell in final Bliss, > beyond birth and death. > > 39. As the struggle between desire and aversion came to and end, I > ceased to invoke in mere words `the one True Godhead', and as the > Light of Reality which is truly sublime grew ever brighter within my > Heart, I attained that state of Grace, which is to dwell unwearyingly > in Holy Silence. > > 40. My poor helpless mind was swept along in the swirling torrent of > objective phenomena until my Lord guided my deluded understanding > into the broad calm of his Holy Silence so that the Light of His > majesty shone in my Heart. > > 42. My divine Lord and Grace-bestowing Teacher replaced the loathsome > darkness of my mind's delusion with the clear Light of divine > Knowledge so that my understanding overflowed with praise to His > glorious Reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.