Guest guest Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Happiness comes from within. Don't look for it outside because nothing or nobody will be able to provide you with it. http://www.wewalk.net/weblog/ ____________ Renovamos el Correo : ¡100 MB GRATIS! Nuevos servicios, más seguridad http://correo..es Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 How can our *within* be happy if there is frustratation and sadness around it ? Caminamos <caminamosnet wrote:Happiness comes from within. Don't look for it outside because nothing or nobody will be able to provide you with it. http://www.wewalk.net/weblog/ ____________ Renovamos el Correo : ¡100 MB GRATIS! Nuevos servicios, más seguridad http://correo..es ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 > How can our *within* be happy if there is frustratation and sadness around it ? How can there be sadness and frustration around us when we are filled with happiness within? >>>>>>>>>> As within, so without. Don't seek the within from without. Let the within expand to fill all. Then one becomes a light unto the world. And a beacon of peace. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 BIll, Is there a connection between the " Within " and " Without " ? yes there is so then if the within can expand to fill all then can the " without " overcome the " within " ? meaning if there is sadness and frustration in the " without " can the " within " remain immune of it or will the " within " wipe it out ? or is all this efforting to understand our lives aimed such that the " within " expands with ease and peace is the outcome? regards M Bill Rishel <plexus wrote: How can there be sadness and frustration around us when we are filled with happiness within? >>>>>>>>>> As within, so without. Don't seek the within from without. Let the within expand to fill all. Then one becomes a light unto the world. And a beacon of peace. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 In the same way the sun can shine even if the sky is overcast. Message: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Masti <mastteddy Re: Happiness comes from within How can our *within* be happy if there is frustratation and sadness around it ? Caminamos <caminamosnet wrote:Happiness comes from within. Don't look for it outside because nothing or nobody will be able to provide you with it. http://www.wewalk.net/weblog/ ____________ Renovamos el Correo : ¡100 MB GRATIS! Nuevos servicios, más seguridad http://correo..es Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 M: Is there a connection between the " Within " and " Without " ? Bill: A distinction between within and without is illusory. To see there is a connection is to begin to see that they are one. M: yes there is so then if the within can expand to fill all then can the " without " overcome the " within " ? meaning if there is sadness and frustration in the " without " can the " within " remain immune of it or will the " within " wipe it out ? Bill: I see that kind of talk as fear-based. The notions of " overcoming " , being " immune " , and " wiping out " reflect a sense of conflict and struggle. In reality there is no opposition. The disease is in the belief in conflict between the within and the without. M: or is all this efforting to understand our lives aimed such that the " within " expands with ease and peace is the outcome? Bill: Yes To abide with the within is to relinquish our fear of the without. Abiding with the within is a seed of faith. When that seed grows and expands we find Peace, we find that what-we-are inherently is not in conflict, we find that we are inherently at-one, and much more beyond that. Bill .............................................. Bill Rishel <plexus wrote: How can there be sadness and frustration around us when we are filled with happiness within? >>>>>>>>>> As within, so without. Don't seek the within from without. Let the within expand to fill all. Then one becomes a light unto the world. And a beacon of peace. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 Thank you Bill, I understand. Just one last question regarding the second point - relevent portions of which I am copying below which my Questions at the end :- M: yes there is so then if the within can expand to fill all then can the " without " overcome the " within " ? meaning if there is sadness and frustration in the " without " can the " within " remain immune of it or will the " within " wipe it out ? Bill: I see that kind of talk as fear-based. The notions of " overcoming " , being " immune " , and " wiping out " reflect a sense of conflict and struggle. In reality there is no opposition. The disease is in the belief in conflict between the within and the without. M reverts : Yes, very true. It is a fact that often I am beset with fear & struggle. To that extent, it is also true that more often than not (with some conscious efforting on my part), I feel calm, peaceful with a sense of fulfillment. I feel a need to find answers to a)do others need to do a lot of efforting as well or is it more natural for some to find harmony in our " within " . 2) Do I stand in my own way and make it more difficult for myself to get rid of this conflict? 3)Why isnt peace my natural state of being ? Is it anybody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Thank you Bill, I understand. Just one last question regarding the second point - relevent portions of which I am copying below which my Questions at the end :- M: yes there is so then if the within can expand to fill all then can the " without " overcome the " within " ? meaning if there is sadness and frustration in the " without " can the " within " remain immune of it or will the " within " wipe it out ? Bill: I see that kind of talk as fear-based. The notions of " overcoming " , being " immune " , and " wiping out " reflect a sense of conflict and struggle. In reality there is no opposition. The disease is in the belief in conflict between the within and the without. M reverts : Yes, very true. It is a fact that often I am beset with fear & struggle. To that extent, it is also true that more often than not (with some conscious efforting on my part), I feel calm, peaceful with a sense of fulfillment. I feel a need to find answers to a)do others need to do a lot of efforting as well or is it more natural for some to find harmony in our " within " . 2) Do I stand in my own way and make it more difficult for myself to get rid of this conflict? 3)Why isnt peace my natural state of being ? Is it anybody? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where is the conflict? Is it outside of you, or inside of you? If there is conflict within you, there is opposition within you. Where is the opposition? Notice that sometimes you are peaceful " with some conscious efforting " . So what is that efforting? Is not in opposition? Is it not essentially conflict? To me, real peace is my true nature. There is nothing I can *do* to be at peace, since peace is the natural state. But be sure you are not confusing peace with " calm " . The peace I am talking about is total at-one-ness with oneself... and ultimately even beyond that. As long as there is a struggle within there is not-peace. Even if the struggle is supposedly to attain peace! One approach is to simply note when there is *resistence* within oneself... and then to *go into it*... go in in in to it... So my answers to your questions: a) efforting is antithetical to peace 2) yes, evidently from your account 3) peace *is* your true state, but as long as there is resistence you " cover up " your true state with conflict When you *go into* the resistence within yourself with openness and vulnerability... the knots of conflict within you will begin to fall away. There is nothing more powerful than to simply go into it with complete earnestness. The obstacles can seem infinite, but complete earnestness can pierce them. As for myself, I cannot say, " I am at peace, " because there is not a sense of an " I " to say that. What happens when you really, really go into it is that ultimately even the sense of " I " falls away, even the sense of a center of experience, the sense of a " me " that experiences, etc. So rather than say, " I am at peace " , I say, " There is only peace. " Peace Is Bill Note: The sense of an " I " is inherently a tension, a sense of contraction. When there is no sense of separation whatsoever then the sense of " I " becomes meaningless and dissolves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill: Where is the conflict? Is it outside of you, or inside of you? M :I think its inside of me Bill: If there is conflict within you, there is opposition within you. Where is the opposition? M:thats what I want to find out ..what is this opposition. As for where,its obviously inside. Bill: Notice that sometimes you are peaceful " with some conscious efforting " . So what is that efforting? Is not in opposition? Is it not essentially conflict? M: I dont know if it is. I dont know any form of meditation. I have been to a Shaman in Paris once..and maybe will write about that experience if someone's interested. I think what works for me is " me " . To put it simply...for me efforting is scolding myself...taking te control of " me " back from my negative inside and shirk off all the mind/nerves/ego activity inside.. when too much conflict seems to be happening within me, when my mind is running away by making permutations combinations of the past , the now and predicting future. Inherently I know i have to rid myself of it so i make the effort - I basically concentrate and focus within as if trying to calm a child in tantrum..sometimes i scream at it.. " hello, Auntie..why dont you shut up for a change " ..;-) it really really works...most of the time at least :-) BIll: To me, real peace is my true nature. There is nothing I can *do* to be at peace, since peace is the natural state. But be sure you are not confusing peace with " calm " . The peace I am talking about is total at-one-ness with oneself... and ultimately even beyond that. M: I understand this and the dichotomy you are creating between peace and calm. Maybe you are right. I do feel one with myself but yes not calm. To be calm (which yes i have been confusing with peace) i do all the efforting (as written above) Bill: As long as there is a struggle within there is not-peace. Even if the struggle is supposedly to attain peace! M:hmmm...that makes lots of sense Bill: One approach is to simply note when there is *resistence* within oneself... and then to *go into it*... go in in in to it... M: Does my answers in point 2 above mean I note that there is resistance and by scolding myself i *go into it*. Or does that mean I am trying to tackle it. As per your earlier advice if i am trying to tackle it then i shortcircuiting the whole quest myself as Tackle = efforting = struggle = conflict = no real peace Bill So my answers to your questions: a) efforting is antithetical to peace 2) yes, evidently from your account 3) peace *is* your true state, but as long as there is resistence you " cover up " your true state with conflict When you *go into* the resistence within yourself with openness and vulnerability... the knots of conflict within you will begin to fall away. There is nothing more powerful than to simply go into it with complete earnestness. The obstacles can seem infinite, but complete earnestness can pierce them. As for myself, I cannot say, " I am at peace, " because there is not a sense of an " I " to say that. What happens when you really, really go into it is that ultimately even the sense of " I " falls away, even the sense of a center of experience, the sense of a " me " that experiences, etc. So rather than say, " I am at peace " , I say, " There is only peace. " Peace Is Bill Note: The sense of an " I " is inherently a tension, a sense of contraction. When there is no sense of separation whatsoever then the sense of " I " becomes meaningless and dissolves. M : Thats awesomely written. You are absolutely right. Maybe I try to *go into it* but in my own way however..Maybe i need to do it with more openness and vulnerability..it will be fun to see who wins at the end the " Self " or the " self " regards / M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 Masti [mastteddy] Friday, September 10, 2004 10:55 AM Nisargadatta Re: Happiness comes from within >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill: Where is the conflict? Is it outside of you, or inside of you? M :I think its inside of me Bill: If there is conflict within you, there is opposition within you. Where is the opposition? M:thats what I want to find out ..what is this opposition. As for where,its obviously inside. Bill: Notice that sometimes you are peaceful " with some conscious efforting " . So what is that efforting? Is not in opposition? Is it not essentially conflict? M: I dont know if it is. I dont know any form of meditation. I have been to a Shaman in Paris once..and maybe will write about that experience if someone's interested. I think what works for me is " me " . To put it simply...for me efforting is scolding myself...taking te control of " me " back from my negative inside and shirk off all the mind/nerves/ego activity inside.. when too much conflict seems to be happening within me, when my mind is running away by making permutations combinations of the past , the now and predicting future. Inherently I know i have to rid myself of it so i make the effort - I basically concentrate and focus within as if trying to calm a child in tantrum..sometimes i scream at it.. " hello, Auntie..why dont you shut up for a change " ..;-) it really really works...most of the time at least :-) >>> All these are mere tricks for those searching for techniques and tricks to calm the mind...once it is understood that they r merely the outcome of a mind in struggle such actions ceases. BIll: To me, real peace is my true nature. There is nothing I can *do* to be at peace, since peace is the natural state. But be sure you are not confusing peace with " calm " . The peace I am talking about is total at-one-ness with oneself... and ultimately even beyond that. M: I understand this and the dichotomy you are creating between peace and calm. Maybe you are right. I do feel one with myself but yes not calm. To be calm (which yes i have been confusing with peace) i do all the efforting (as written above) Bill: As long as there is a struggle within there is not-peace. Even if the struggle is supposedly to attain peace! M:hmmm...that makes lots of sense Bill: One approach is to simply note when there is *resistence* within oneself... and then to *go into it*... go in in in to it... M: Does my answers in point 2 above mean I note that there is resistance and by scolding myself i *go into it*. Or does that mean I am trying to tackle it. As per your earlier advice if i am trying to tackle it then i shortcircuiting the whole quest myself as Tackle = efforting = struggle = conflict = no real peace Bill So my answers to your questions: a) efforting is antithetical to peace 2) yes, evidently from your account 3) peace *is* your true state, but as long as there is resistence you " cover up " your true state with conflict When you *go into* the resistence within yourself with openness and vulnerability... the knots of conflict within you will begin to fall away. There is nothing more powerful than to simply go into it with complete earnestness. The obstacles can seem infinite, but complete earnestness can pierce them. As for myself, I cannot say, " I am at peace, " because there is not a sense of an " I " to say that. What happens when you really, really go into it is that ultimately even the sense of " I " falls away, even the sense of a center of experience, the sense of a " me " that experiences, etc. So rather than say, " I am at peace " , I say, " There is only peace. " Peace Is Bill Note: The sense of an " I " is inherently a tension, a sense of contraction. When there is no sense of separation whatsoever then the sense of " I " becomes meaningless and dissolves. M : Thats awesomely written. You are absolutely right. Maybe I try to *go into it* but in my own way however..Maybe i need to do it with more openness and vulnerability..it will be fun to see who wins at the end the " Self " or the " self " regards / M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 Masti [mastteddy] Friday, September 10, 2004 10:55 AM Nisargadatta Re: Happiness comes from within >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill: Where is the conflict? Is it outside of you, or inside of you? M I think its inside of me Does the " ME " has an inside and outside??? Bill: If there is conflict within you, there is opposition within you. Where is the opposition? M:thats what I want to find out ..what is this opposition. As for where,its obviously inside. Bill: Notice that sometimes you are peaceful " with some conscious efforting " . So what is that efforting? Is not in opposition? Is it not essentially conflict? M: I dont know if it is. I dont know any form of meditation. I have been to a Shaman in Paris once..and maybe will write about that experience if someone's interested. I think what works for me is " me " . To put it simply...for me efforting is scolding myself...taking te control of " me " back from my negative inside and shirk off all the mind/nerves/ego activity inside.. when too much conflict seems to be happening within me, when my mind is running away by making permutations combinations of the past , the now and predicting future. Inherently I know i have to rid myself of it so i make the effort - I basically concentrate and focus within as if trying to calm a child in tantrum..sometimes i scream at it.. " hello, Auntie..why dont you shut up for a change " ..;-) it really really works...most of the time at least :-) All these r mere tricks of the mind which is like a Thief calling himself a policeman... BIll: To me, real peace is my true nature. There is nothing I can *do* to be at peace, since peace is the natural state. But be sure you are not confusing peace with " calm " . The peace I am talking about is total at-one-ness with oneself... and ultimately even beyond that. M: I understand this and the dichotomy you are creating between peace and calm. Maybe you are right. I do feel one with myself but yes not calm. To be calm (which yes i have been confusing with peace) i do all the efforting (as written above) Bill: As long as there is a struggle within there is not-peace. Even if the struggle is supposedly to attain peace! M:hmmm...that makes lots of sense Bill: One approach is to simply note when there is *resistence* within oneself... and then to *go into it*... go in in in to it... M: Does my answers in point 2 above mean I note that there is resistance and by scolding myself i *go into it*. Or does that mean I am trying to tackle it. As per your earlier advice if i am trying to tackle it then i shortcircuiting the whole quest myself as Tackle = efforting = struggle = conflict = no real peace Bill So my answers to your questions: a) efforting is antithetical to peace 2) yes, evidently from your account 3) peace *is* your true state, but as long as there is resistence you " cover up " your true state with conflict When you *go into* the resistence within yourself with openness and vulnerability... the knots of conflict within you will begin to fall away. There is nothing more powerful than to simply go into it with complete earnestness. The obstacles can seem infinite, but complete earnestness can pierce them. As for myself, I cannot say, " I am at peace, " because there is not a sense of an " I " to say that. What happens when you really, really go into it is that ultimately even the sense of " I " falls away, even the sense of a center of experience, the sense of a " me " that experiences, etc. So rather than say, " I am at peace " , I say, " There is only peace. " Peace Is Bill Note: The sense of an " I " is inherently a tension, a sense of contraction. When there is no sense of separation whatsoever then the sense of " I " becomes meaningless and dissolves. M : Thats awesomely written. You are absolutely right. Maybe I try to *go into it* but in my own way however..Maybe i need to do it with more openness and vulnerability..it will be fun to see who wins at the end the " Self " or the " self " regards / M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 > Bill: > If there is conflict within you, there is opposition > within you. Where is the opposition? > M:thats what I want to find out ..what is this opposition. As for > where,its obviously inside. But where inside? I mean to find out by *confronting it*, by going into it. Any verbal understanding is worthless. Think of it as " zooming in " . When you sense the conflict within... OK... now zoom in... become like a tiny speck of awareness deep within the sensed conflict. Don't look at it from the outside, but dive in, experience it from the inside out. > Bill: > Notice that sometimes you are peaceful " with some conscious efforting " . > So what is that efforting? Is not in opposition? Is it not essentially > conflict? > M: I dont know if it is. I dont know any form of meditation. I have > been to a Shaman in Paris once..and maybe will write about that > experience if someone's interested. I think what works for me is " me " . > To put it simply...for me efforting is scolding myself...taking te > control of " me " back from my negative inside and shirk off all the > mind/nerves/ego activity inside.. when too much conflict seems to be > happening within me, when my mind is running away by making > permutations combinations of the past , the now and predicting future. > Inherently I know i have to rid myself of it so i make the effort - I > basically concentrate and focus within as if trying to calm a child in > tantrum..sometimes i scream at it.. " hello, Auntie..why dont you shut up > for a change " ..;-) it really really works...most of the time at least > :-) OK. So you have spoken here of your " negative inside " . Notice how you are at war with that " negative inside " . There is your conflict. The conflict is not the *existence* of the negative inside, but in your relationship with it. You have split yourself into parts, a " good " part and a " bad " (negative) part. But really all of it is you. Wholeness is in experiencing the unicity of those parts. And notice that when you are going into the *conflict* within you are going into the *relationship* between the parts of you that are at war. So there is much greater breadth in that inquiry that in favoring one aspect or the other. <snip> > Bill: > One approach is to simply note when there is *resistence* within > oneself... and then to *go into it*... go in in in to it... > M: Does my answers in point 2 above mean I note that there is > resistance and by scolding myself i *go into it*. Or does that mean I > am trying to tackle it. As per your earlier advice if i am trying to > tackle it then i shortcircuiting the whole quest myself as Tackle = > efforting = struggle = conflict = no real peace > > Bill > So my answers to your questions: > a) efforting is antithetical to peace > 2) yes, evidently from your account > 3) peace *is* your true state, but as long as there is resistence > you " cover up " your true state with conflict > > When you *go into* the resistence within yourself with openness > and vulnerability... the knots of conflict within you will begin > to fall away. There is nothing more powerful than to simply go > into it with complete earnestness. The obstacles can seem infinite, > but complete earnestness can pierce them. > > As for myself, I cannot say, " I am at peace, " because there is > not a sense of an " I " to say that. What happens when you really, > really go into it is that ultimately even the sense of " I " falls > away, even the sense of a center of experience, the sense of a > " me " that experiences, etc. So rather than say, " I am at peace " , > I say, " There is only peace. " > > Peace Is > > Bill > > > Note: The sense of an " I " is inherently a tension, a sense of > contraction. When there is no sense of separation whatsoever > then the sense of " I " becomes meaningless and dissolves. > > M : Thats awesomely written. You are absolutely right. Maybe I try to > *go into it* but in my own way however..Maybe i need to do it with more > openness and vulnerability..it will be fun to see who wins at the end > the " Self " or the " self " .... in your own way... absolutely. It is your own private journey. Enjoy it! When you move from attempting to control to exploration and understanding the journey becomes fascinating. One more thing. This kind of exploration is not about " results " , but about truth. In the end the only peace is in coming to the truth about ourselves, but the path is not about finding peace, it is about truth. As long as you are looking for results you will fail. Only when we come to the point that we don't care about results, that we want to know the truth, that we want to end the deceptions we've engaged in, that we seek *only* to be absolutely honest with ourselves... only then can the path sponken about here make sense. And ironically, once we find the intensity of determination within ourselves to *throw aside* everything else and confront our reality with immediacy and directness again and again in every moment... once we do that, in a sense we are already free... even though so much remains to be unfolded. Nisargadatta would frequently say that it is not the approach so much that matters... what matters is the *intensity* of the approach. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 " Ramanath, Murali H (GE Healthcare) " <Murali.Ramanath wrote: >>>>>> Bill: Notice that sometimes you are peaceful " with some conscious efforting " . So what is that efforting? Is not in opposition? Is it not essentially conflict? M: I dont know if it is. I dont know any form of meditation. I have been to a Shaman in Paris once..and maybe will write about that experience if someone's interested. I think what works for me is " me " . To put it simply...for me efforting is scolding myself...taking te control of " me " back from my negative inside and shirk off all the mind/nerves/ego activity inside.. when too much conflict seems to be happening within me, when my mind is running away by making permutations combinations of the past , the now and predicting future. Inherently I know i have to rid myself of it so i make the effort - I basically concentrate and focus within as if trying to calm a child in tantrum..sometimes i scream at it.. " hello, Auntie..why dont you shut up for a change " ..;-) it really really works...most of the time at least :-) >>> All these are mere tricks for those searching for techniques and tricks to calm the mind...once it is understood that they r (>>>???) merely the outcome of a mind in struggle such actions ceases. M reverts: >>>>> : I ackowledge my mind is in struggle. Now what choices do I have after such an ackowledgment. One is to understand why the struggle happens? Second is to " do something " to calm the mind. Third is what to do? Yes..Peace and calm are the most natural state of being and No ..currently I have not reached this natural state or rather somewhere in this material world I lost it. Can It be regained?.. for sure,even the most " emancipated/free/peaceful/knowledgable " people.. " living within the material world " are often unable to find a way to stop the struggle in the mind, without some outside help, without a Guru or ?? ..i dont know there could be other ways - Pranayam for yogis, Sudarkrishan kriya..sahaj yoga...Gita.. etc etc? AS I said to Bill, What I choose to do is to help myself. I agree that the struggle is a creation of the mind and I also agree that this mind is " mine " and all this is part of the whole " I " , " ME " ..the techniques which I work with are also creations of the same " Me " .. Its like the chicken and egg? What comes first - does the ME generate the struggle first and the other part of me bring in the tricks to fight it. What is the trigger ..is the trigger also me or is the trigger from outside? If its from outside, can i remain calm to it? I am trying to understand all this ..till I do ..more often than not, this " trick " works for me. I must admit that often it doesnt too. This is purpose of my being here. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill: Where is the conflict? Is it outside of you, or inside of you? M I think its inside of me Does the " ME " has an inside and outside??? >>>> Yes " ME " is all encompassive - inside and outside.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Hi Mi, Some two cents... - " Masti " <mastteddy <Nisargadatta > Saturday, September 11, 2004 11:34 AM RE: Happiness comes from within > > > " Ramanath, Murali H (GE Healthcare) " <Murali.Ramanath wrote: > >>>>>> > > Bill: > Notice that sometimes you are peaceful " with some conscious efforting " . > So what is that efforting? Is not in opposition? Is it not essentially > conflict? > M: I dont know if it is. I dont know any form of meditation. I have been to a Shaman in Paris once..and maybe will write about that experience if someone's interested. I think what works for me is " me " . To put it simply...for me efforting is scolding myself...taking te control of " me " back from my negative inside and shirk off all the mind/nerves/ego activity inside.. ------- That which believes it is taking control back from the " negative side " ,.............is again nothing but the " me " . ------------ >when too much conflict seems to be happening within me, when my mind is running away by making permutations combinations of the past , the now and predicting >future. In what sense is this conflict? Between what and what? Either of the " what " (s),...........are they anymore than thoughts, which have arisen in the moment? In the moment, there is no conflict. It is only in the recall of the moment passed, that a sense of conflict, may arise. ----------- > Inherently I know i have to rid myself of it so i make the effort - I basically concentrate and focus within as if trying to calm a child in tantrum..sometimes i scream at >it.. " hello, Auntie..why dont you shut up for a change " ..;-) it really really works...most of the time at least :-) Then what's the hullabalooo about? Do what works for you.:-) --------- > > > >>> All these are mere tricks for those searching for techniques and tricks to calm the mind...once it is understood that they r (>>>???) merely the outcome of a mind in struggle such actions ceases. > > > M reverts: >>>>> : I ackowledge my mind is in struggle. ----- Nope. The sense of a struggle, any struggle, infers the struggling mind. The mind has no existential reality,.............. for it struggle. Or to become calm. ----------- > Now what choices do I have after such an ackowledgment. One is to understand why the struggle happens? Second is to " do something " to calm the mind. Instead of " why " the struggle, ............how about, to whom is the struggle,...........a " struggle " ? And thus,.......... who is it,.............. that feels the need to do something to calm the mind, as a possible solution to the problem? Before tackling the problem, how about ascertaining, for whom is the problem,........a " problem " ? ----------- > Third is what to do? Yes..Peace and calm are the most natural state of being How do you know? -------- >and No ..currently I have not reached this natural state or rather somewhere in this material world I lost it. Can It be regained?.. for sure,even the most > " emancipated/free/peaceful/knowledgable " people.. " living within the material world " are often unable to find a way to stop the struggle in the mind, without some outside >help, without a Guru or ?? That which can be " handed over " by an " other " ,........can only be Band-Aids. Temporary assuagings. ------- > ..i dont know there could be other ways - Pranayam for yogis, Sudarkrishan kriya..sahaj yoga...Gita.. etc etc? Sure. Try all of them. They all, have a role, they all have a relative benefit. But the crucial issues, remains,.......to whom is the conflict,..............a conflict? Without that, all you have in your hands are Band-Aids, maybe with esoteric brand names.:-) -------- > AS I said to Bill, What I choose to do is to help myself. I agree that the struggle is a creation of the mind and I also agree that this mind is " mine " and all this is part of >the whole " I " , " ME " ..the techniques which I work with are also creations of the same " Me " .. If truly this was apperceived,..............all sense of all conflicts,..............would have ceased.:-) ------- >Its like the chicken and egg? What comes first - does the ME generate the struggle first and the other part of me bring in the tricks to fight it. Nope. The sense of a struggle,.........infers the " struggling-me " . Which then seeks for solutions, discarding one for the other. Which perpetuates the sense of the struggle. The issue is, ..............aka straining to lift yourself by your bootstraps. And when failing,..............looking for techniques, and technologies and methodologies, which will help you achieve your goal. You are the very weight you are trying to lift. Knowing this, by all means, continue to have some more fun. ------- > What is the trigger ..is the trigger also me or is the trigger from outside? If its from outside, can i remain calm to it? The outside, is a mere created projection of the inside. -------- > I am trying to understand all this ..till I do ..more often than not, this " trick " works for me. I must admit that often it doesnt too. This is purpose of my being here. By all means, continue to have fun. Just see, it being the nature of round and round the mulberry bush. Seeing it as so, nobody stops you from still going around mulberry bushes. Or trying to find new bushes to circumbulate.:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Bill Rishel <plexus wrote: > Bill: > If there is conflict within you, there is opposition > within you. Where is the opposition? > M:thats what I want to find out ..what is this opposition. As for > where,its obviously inside. Bill : But where inside? I mean to find out by *confronting it*, by going into it. Any verbal understanding is worthless. Think of it as " zooming in " . When you sense the conflict within... OK... now zoom in... become like a tiny speck of awareness deep within the sensed conflict. Don't look at it from the outside, but dive in, experience it from the inside out. M reverts: hmmm....u know something!!.., Ive done this !! Yes.. sometimes without knowing really what kind of approach it is or understanding its outcome or expecting any result...its part of my way (my efforting)..but to be honest with you sometimes it leaves me scared. Often the aftermath of what you call.. " zooming in " .. i feel intensely light (maybe not the right word but i think i feel resolved for the time being).. and sometimes it opens up a can of worms within me (which is scary).. > Bill: > Notice that sometimes you are peaceful " with some conscious efforting " . > So what is that efforting? Is not in opposition? Is it not essentially > conflict? > M: I dont know if it is. I dont know any form of meditation. I have > been to a Shaman in Paris once..and maybe will write about that > experience if someone's interested. I think what works for me is " me " . > To put it simply...for me efforting is scolding myself...taking te > control of " me " back from my negative inside and shirk off all the > mind/nerves/ego activity inside.. when too much conflict seems to be > happening within me, when my mind is running away by making > permutations combinations of the past , the now and predicting future. > Inherently I know i have to rid myself of it so i make the effort - I > basically concentrate and focus within as if trying to calm a child in > tantrum..sometimes i scream at it.. " hello, Auntie..why dont you shut up > for a change " ..;-) it really really works...most of the time at least > :-) OK. So you have spoken here of your " negative inside " . Notice how you are at war with that " negative inside " . There is your conflict. The conflict is not the *existence* of the negative inside, but in your relationship with it. You have split yourself into parts, a " good " part and a " bad " (negative) part. But really all of it is you. Wholeness is in experiencing the unicity of those parts. And notice that when you are going into the *conflict* within you are going into the *relationship* between the parts of you that are at war. So there is much greater breadth in that inquiry that in favoring one aspect or the other. M :Hmm..how did this split happen? What is a negative self? Isnt it the sum total of all my past experiences stored in the brain ..the constant mind/ego/nerves burden.Was it always there or does a " situation " from the outside trigger it? Dont others have a negative self? how do they manage it? <snip> Bill .... in your own way... absolutely. It is your own private journey. Enjoy it! When you move from attempting to control to exploration and understanding the journey becomes fascinating. One more thing. This kind of exploration is not about " results " , but about truth. In the end the only peace is in coming to the truth about ourselves, but the path is not about finding peace, it is about truth. As long as you are looking for results you will fail. Only when we come to the point that we don't care about results, that we want to know the truth, that we want to end the deceptions we've engaged in, that we seek *only* to be absolutely honest with ourselves... only then can the path sponken about here make sense. And ironically, once we find the intensity of determination within ourselves to *throw aside* everything else and confront our reality with immediacy and directness again and again in every moment... once we do that, in a sense we are already free... even though so much remains to be unfolded. Nisargadatta would frequently say that it is not the approach so much that matters... what matters is the *intensity* of the approach. >>> M reverts : Yes thats what I said to Murali (not as eloquently as you,of course;-), I live in the material world, experiences and memories of each of the immediately past Nows lie in folds within me..This pack will often create conflicts whenever there is a trigger from within or without..what should my approach be..the purpose is to understand.. To relish Life as it is and not in renouncement....because I cherish my material world Bill / M Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 That which believes it is taking control back from the " negative side " ,.............is again nothing but the " me " . M :yes i know ------------ >when too much conflict seems to be happening within me, when my mind is running away by making permutations combinations of the past , the now and predicting >future. In what sense is this conflict? M>>> the conflict happens when my mind rushes to construct my responses to a situation I face in the now.. Between what and what? M >> Between fossilized memories in ego/nerves/mind and a my true nature Sandeep : Either of the " what " (s),...........are they anymore than thoughts, which have arisen in the moment? M >> agreed they are no more than thoughts but would like to add that they " strategically " arise at the right moment. Sandeep : In the moment, there is no conflict. M>>hmm.. Sandeep : It is only in the recall of the moment passed, that a sense of conflict, may arise. M >> Dont even try to get me into this !..This whole Now (Ekchart), moment conceptualizing ..I havent got the hang of it..call me uninitiated or worse if you will.. In this moment i have a situation and there is a conflict between fossilized memories and my true nature (what I think)..To that extent its a recall of moment passed..What This will do for me, what conflicts it may lead to in the next moment..i dont know..guess it will add yet another layer to the memory fossils .. ----------- > Inherently I know i have to rid myself of it so i make the effort - I basically concentrate and focus within as if trying to calm a child in tantrum..sometimes i scream at >it.. " hello, Auntie..why dont you shut up for a change " ..;-) it really really works...most of the time at least :-) Sundeep: Then what's the hullabalooo about? M>>> grrr..thats mean way to put it...not fair to call it hullabaloo sundeep (frying pan on ur head..Toink!!!..) Sundeep: Do what works for you.:-) M>> yes sir, i do it and I was talking to Bill about why it doesnt work for me sometimess:-((. --------- > > >>> All these are mere tricks for those searching for techniques and tricks to calm the mind...once it is understood that they r (>>>???) merely the outcome of a mind in struggle such actions ceases. > > > M reverts: >>>>> : I ackowledge my mind is in struggle. ----- Sundeep: Nope. The sense of a struggle, any struggle, infers the struggling mind. M>>hmmm..ok The mind has no existential reality,.............. for it struggle. Or to become calm. M>>>hmmm..i dont know enough to comment on this.. ----------- > Now what choices do I have after such an ackowledgment. One is to understand why the struggle happens? Second is to " do something " to calm the mind. Sundeep: Instead of " why " the struggle, ............how about, to whom is the struggle,...........a " struggle " ? And thus,.......... who is it,.............. that feels the need to do something to calm the mind, as a possible solution to the problem? Before tackling the problem, how about ascertaining, for whom is the problem,........a " problem " ? M>>> hmmm..i know what you are getting to here..all of the above is *ME* ----------- > Third is what to do? Yes..Peace and calm are the most natural state of being How do you know? M>>>hmmm..I know because you said it in one your previous posts :-) No Seriously..I " think " so..and..and what I think is important....I admit that what I think is not = what I need to know / what is correct ..But then what I think is not final and is open to editing/refinment/ learning ..within this journey of mine.. -------- >and No ..currently I have not reached this natural state or rather somewhere in this material world I lost it. Can It be regained?.. for sure,even the most > " emancipated/free/peaceful/knowledgable " people.. " living within the material world " are often unable to find a way to stop the struggle in the mind, without some outside >help, without a Guru or ?? Sundeep: That which can be " handed over " by an " other " ,........can only be Band-Aids. Temporary assuagings. M>> Phew! Finally we agree on something..yes they are band aids!! ------- > ..i dont know there could be other ways - Pranayam for yogis, Sudarkrishan kriya..sahaj yoga...Gita.. etc etc? Sure. Try all of them. They all, have a role, they all have a relative benefit. M>> Not yet I havent.. But the crucial issues, remains,.......to whom is the conflict,..............a conflict? Without that, all you have in your hands are Band-Aids, maybe with esoteric brand names.:-) M>>> you lost me here..the conflict just " is " ..I feel it in my responses to situations in the material world.. -------- > AS I said to Bill, What I choose to do is to help myself. I agree that the struggle is a creation of the mind and I also agree that this mind is " mine " and all this is part of >the whole " I " , " ME " ..the techniques which I work with are also creations of the same " Me " .. If truly this was apperceived,..............all sense of all conflicts,..............would have ceased.:-) M>>> :-)you may be the best driver in the world Sundeep..but does that ensure you will never do a mistake in parking, never cross a red light, never get your vehicle scratched..never bump the bumper of another... hmmm?? ------- >Its like the chicken and egg? What comes first - does the ME generate the struggle first and the other part of me bring in the tricks to fight it. Nope. The sense of a struggle,.........infers the " struggling-me " . Which then seeks for solutions, discarding one for the other. Which perpetuates the sense of the struggle. The issue is, ..............aka straining to lift yourself by your bootstraps. And when failing,..............looking for techniques, and technologies and methodologies, which will help you achieve your goal. You are the very weight you are trying to lift. Knowing this, by all means, continue to have some more fun. M>>> you were making quite a lot of sense I gained a lot till you put in the last sarcastic comment .. " knowing this , by all means continue to have some more fun " which was not required... I think :-) ------- > What is the trigger ..is the trigger also me or is the trigger from outside? If its from outside, can i remain calm to it? The outside, is a mere created projection of the inside. M>> how do you know :-)? -------- > I am trying to understand all this ..till I do ..more often than not, this " trick " works for me. I must admit that often it doesnt too. This is purpose of my being here. Sundeep: By all means, continue to have fun. Just see, it being the nature of round and round the mulberry bush. Seeing it as so, nobody stops you from still going around mulberry bushes. Or trying to find new bushes to circumbulate.:-) M>>> Interesting choice of words..I must say Sundeep, you seem to be an interesting person with a lot of depth..Its nice to read you ..but the way you punctuate your knowledge with pure thorns...hmmm..aint so enriching..Whyever would you think i have any desire to go round the mulberry bush..or finding new bushes to circumbulate...hmmm..neways..thanks a tonne../M Shop for Back-to-School deals on Shopping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Hi M, - " Masti " <mastteddy <Nisargadatta > Saturday, September 11, 2004 1:22 PM Re: Happiness comes from within > > > > That which believes it is taking control back from the " negative side " ,.............is again nothing but the " me " . > > M :yes i know > ------------ > > >when too much conflict seems to be happening within me, when my mind is running away by making permutations combinations of the past , the now and predicting >future. > > > In what sense is this conflict? > > M>>> the conflict happens when my mind rushes to construct my responses to a situation I face in the now.. -------- There is a responding to a situation. Any situation, will invoke a responding, even if the nature of the response is indifference. The conflict is not in the response, but in the agony, aka, is it the " right " response, or will it get me what I crave from the situation, et al. Quite irrespective of the sense of the agony (or elation),....so long the biological object labeled " Masti " is alive, a response will arise in the moment. Moment to moment to moment. -------- > > Between what and what? > > M >> Between fossilized memories in ego/nerves/mind and a my true nature. ----- For whom is this distinction? -------- > > Sandeep : > Either of the " what " (s),...........are they anymore than thoughts, which have arisen in the moment? > M >> agreed they are no more than thoughts but would like to add that they " strategically " arise at the right moment. > > Sandeep : > In the moment, there is no conflict. > M>>hmm.. > > Sandeep : > It is only in the recall of the moment passed, that a sense of conflict, may arise. > M >> Dont even try to get me into this !..This whole Now (Ekchart), moment conceptualizing ..I havent got the hang of it..call me uninitiated or worse if you will.. --- :-) ------- > In this moment i have a situation and there is a conflict between fossilized memories and my true nature (what I think).. ------- That is the point. That sense of the distinction, is nothing but the sense of the " me-entity " -------- >To that extent its a recall of moment passed..What This will do for me, what conflicts it may lead to in the next moment..i dont know..guess it will add yet another layer >to the memory fossils .. ----- :-) Yes. More of the same stuff. ----- > ----------- > > > > Inherently I know i have to rid myself of it so i make the effort - I basically concentrate and focus within as if trying to calm a child in tantrum..sometimes i scream at >it.. " hello, Auntie..why dont you shut up for a change " ..;-) it really really works...most of the time at least :-) > > > Sundeep: > Then what's the hullabalooo about? > M>>> grrr..thats mean way to put it...not fair to call it hullabaloo sundeep (frying pan on ur head..Toink!!!..) --- LOL -------- > > > Sundeep: > Do what works for you.:-) > M>> yes sir, i do it and I was talking to Bill about why it doesnt work for me sometimess:-((. --------- I am sugesting, it has never worked for you. ----- <SNIP> >> > Before tackling the problem, how about ascertaining, for whom is the problem,........a " problem " ? > > > M>>> hmmm..i know what you are getting to here..all of the above is *ME* ----------- Who or what is that? --------- > > > Third is what to do? Yes..Peace and calm are the most natural state of being > > How do you know? > M>>>hmmm..I know because you said it in one your previous posts :-) No Seriously..I " think " so..and..and what I think is important....I admit that what I think is not = what I need to know / what is correct ..But then what I think is not final and is open to editing/refinment/ learning ..within this journey of mine.. -------- :-) Thought of the natural state being, is not the natural state of being. Thought " ABOUT " what is the natural state of being, is not the natural state of being. The natural state of being is when the conceptualizing of a 'natural " state as contrasted by an " unnatural " state, has ceased. When even the conceptualizing of state of beingness, in ciontrast to non-beingness, has ceased. The natural state, is the very absence of the presence of all conceptualizings,................AND..............the absence of the absence of the presence of all conceptualizings. -------- <SNIP> > > But the crucial issues, remains,.......to whom is the conflict,..............a conflict? > > > Without that, all you have in your hands are Band-Aids, maybe with esoteric brand names.:-) > > > M>>> you lost me here..the conflict just " is " ..I feel it in my responses to situations in the material world.. > > -------- Sure. A sense of a conflict can only be in association with the responding in the moment. And needs a sense of a stake, with the moment. Without a sense of a stake with the moment, there cannot be a sense of a conflict. --------- > > > AS I said to Bill, What I choose to do is to help myself. I agree that the struggle is a creation of the mind and I also agree that this mind is " mine " and all this is part of >the whole " I " , " ME " ..the techniques which I work with are also creations of the same " Me " .. > > > > > If truly this was apperceived,..............all sense of all conflicts,..............would have ceased.:-) > > > M>>> :-)you may be the best driver in the world Sundeep..but does that ensure you will never do a mistake in parking, never cross a red light, never get your vehicle scratched..never bump the bumper of another... hmmm?? ---------- :-) You may do all that. Just that, none of that will be an issue, in the sense of a " to-be-atoned-mistake " . -------- > > > >Its like the chicken and egg? What comes first - does the ME generate the struggle first and the other part of me bring in the tricks to fight it. > > > Nope. > > The sense of a struggle,.........infers the " struggling-me " . > > Which then seeks for solutions, discarding one for the other. > > Which perpetuates the sense of the struggle. > > The issue is, ..............aka straining to lift yourself by your bootstraps. > > And when failing,..............looking for techniques, and technologies and methodologies, which will help you achieve your goal. > > > > You are the very weight you are trying to lift. > > > > Knowing this, by all means, continue to have some more fun. > > M>>> you were making quite a lot of sense I gained a lot till you put in the last sarcastic comment .. " knowing this , by all means continue to have some more fun " which was not required... I think :-) > > ------- :-) Come on Masti. Just squiggly signs on a PC screen. Whether they make sense, or whether they are " sarcastic " , who lends that coloration to the sqiggly signs?:-) What I was meaning is that,......... seeing the truth, in no way inteferes living in the same material world which is conflicting for you. And dealing with the issues, that living entails. ------- > > > > > What is the trigger ..is the trigger also me or is the trigger from outside? If its from outside, can i remain calm to it? > > > The outside, is a mere created projection of the inside. > > M>> how do you know :-)? > -------- :-) --------- > > > > I am trying to understand all this ..till I do ..more often than not, this " trick " works for me. I must admit that often it doesnt too. This is purpose of my being here. > > > Sundeep: > By all means, continue to have fun. > > Just see, it being the nature of round and round the mulberry bush. > > Seeing it as so, nobody stops you from still going around mulberry bushes. > > Or trying to find new bushes to circumbulate.:-) > > M>>> Interesting choice of words..I must say Sundeep, you seem to be an interesting person with a lot of depth..Its nice to read you ..but the way you punctuate your knowledge with pure thorns...hmmm..aint so enriching..Whyever would you think i have any desire to go round the mulberry bush..or finding new bushes to circumbulate...hmmm..neways..thanks a tonne../M LOL Its not you personally. It's the sense of the " me " , whatever be it's shape, hue, form or label. It constantly needs a bush to pee on. And then for the " me " , .. its.................I PEE, ERGO I AM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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