Advaita theory has logical flaw in it - hence whole theory wrong?

[Guest guest]

Gentlemen!

 

See, I have always been afraid that this happens one day:

Up to now, the whole advaita-issue seemed logically sound.

I am not so sure anymore...

 

- How comes that I wake up with the same body-mind every morning?

 

- Why don't I have all the experiences of all body-minds at the same

time?

 

- How can different concepts arise in DIFFERENT consciousness

entities?

(If there really was only one awareness, and I am this awareness, why

then does this awareness has only the experience of 'my' body-mind?

Rather than all the experiences at the same time.)

 

((there is only here and now, I understand. How comes that this here

and now experiences DIFFERENT things through countless body-mind-

entities?))

 

I herewith come to the conclusion that oneness is illusion -

seperateness is reality, the only ONE!

 

 

 

:-(

 

and this after 3 years of following this illusive concept called non-

duality.

 

How about non-oneness?

 

 

think about it

fox

[Guest guest]

Fox,

 

 

> How about non-oneness?

 

 

Don't go back....leave this concept, too. As Ramana said, use a

stinger to pull out another stinger and throw both away thereafter.

That's all....concepts! Non-oneness or oneness, too! There is no

truth to find in human elaborations not even in yours....pointers,

perhaps. Nisargadatta's message is actually: " Don't cling to

anything! " Your " non-oneness-theory " is just an excuse to continue

you cling to something....try meditation, Fox!

 

......this was simply not the point!

 

 

Kip Almazy

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance " <investicator@h...>

wrote:

> Gentlemen!

>

> See, I have always been afraid that this happens one day:

> Up to now, the whole advaita-issue seemed logically sound.

> I am not so sure anymore...

>

> - How comes that I wake up with the same body-mind every morning?

>

> - Why don't I have all the experiences of all body-minds at the same

> time?

>

> - How can different concepts arise in DIFFERENT consciousness

> entities?

> (If there really was only one awareness, and I am this awareness, why

> then does this awareness has only the experience of 'my' body-mind?

> Rather than all the experiences at the same time.)

>

> ((there is only here and now, I understand. How comes that this here

> and now experiences DIFFERENT things through countless body-mind-

> entities?))

>

> I herewith come to the conclusion that oneness is illusion -

> seperateness is reality, the only ONE!

>

>

>

> :-(

>

> and this after 3 years of following this illusive concept called non-

> duality.

>

> How about non-oneness?

>

>

> think about it

> fox

 

 

Thinking about it.......is the origin of the predicament.....not the means of

its resolution.

 

A problem that which exists only within the mentation of an illusory

entity.......cannot be resolved......by that entity........

 

Any discussion on the reality of a concept (non-duality) is as fruitless as

debating the real color of Cinderella's dress.

 

" Non-duality " is neither real nor unreal......true or untrue.............

 

 

 

.........it simply does not exist........

 

 

 

toombaru

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance "

<investicator@h...> wrote:

> Gentlemen!

>

> See, I have always been afraid that this happens one day:

> Up to now, the whole advaita-issue seemed logically sound.

> I am not so sure anymore...

>

> - How comes that I wake up with the same body-mind every morning?

>

> - Why don't I have all the experiences of all body-minds at the

same

> time?

>

> - How can different concepts arise in DIFFERENT consciousness

> entities?

> (If there really was only one awareness, and I am this awareness,

why

> then does this awareness has only the experience of 'my' body-mind?

> Rather than all the experiences at the same time.)

>

> ((there is only here and now, I understand. How comes that this

here

> and now experiences DIFFERENT things through countless body-mind-

> entities?))

>

> I herewith come to the conclusion that oneness is illusion -

> seperateness is reality, the only ONE!

>

>

>

> :-(

>

> and this after 3 years of following this illusive concept called

non-

> duality.

>

> How about non-oneness?

>

>

> think about it

> fox

 

It may be that the human being with its mind is a separate form that

will dissolve an be no more. But this view has one error built into

it: nothing can be truly separate from something else. There is

polarity: this and that, but there is also a connecting substrate

being aware of this and that. The 'this' cannot be truly separate

from existence, for if the 'this' has _no_ relations to something

else it simply would not be part of existence. The same goes

for 'that'. When we see that there can be no true separation in

existence it becomes evident that everything is one interconnected

wholeness.

 

Then there is the idea of change. If something is a part of

existence, it cannot become separated from that existence. Where

would a separate 'this' go? Change is the result of an ever expanding

unfolding of relations. I see existence as an endless and ever

expanding unfolding of itself in relation to itself, and that this

unfolding is a single atomic (in the sense of being indivisible)

event. What is, will always be, and what is will always expand; not

expand in the form of some 'things' being created, but expanded in

the form of an ever increasing self-relation.

 

The single event of self-relation is: Existence (E) in relation to

itself: E <-> E, wich includes every possible combinations E can be

related with itself. These all possible combinations is a single

explosion of diversity.

 

Why do I experience myself as a unique individual? The answer is:

because I _am_ a unique unchangeable, indestructible relational

*position* within the unfolding relational network. From one unique

position there will be a unique experience of exitence unfolding, and

from another unique point, there will be another experience, but it

is the _same_ existence being experience.

 

Existence is and cannot become anything else. Existence does not come

from anywhere or anything. Existence will always be indestructible

and ever expanding.

 

Is your awareness different from my awareness? Maybe, maybe not.

However, the main point here is that _everything_ is of the same

indestructible existence.

 

We see, for example, a scyscraper being destroyed, is this not

destruction? No, what we experience is just information unfolding.

The information will remain intact, the past is unchangeable, but

there will be new information exploding into existence each second,

and what we see is the new information coming into being enveloping,

embracing the old information. The information in the universe

increase infinitely fast, and no information is ever 'destroyed'.

What I mean by information is the expanding net of relations: E <-> E.

 

So, please, feel free to feel separate, but know that something

within existence cannot ever be separate from the whole.

 

/AL

[Guest guest]

Sir,

 

your questions are great! Fundamental. There have been times I was

sitting for days and months asking exactly those questions and now I

am sitting and asking again (lol)!

 

Since you started the game, shall we play? I want to go only into one

of your questions, but this might lead to the disappearance of the

other questions...

 

>there is only here and now, I understand. How comes that this here

>and now experiences DIFFERENT things through countless body-mind-

>entities?

 

Every moment manifestation unfolds into time and space. Inside space

there are expanded locations, inside time, there is the passing of

time. The moment you would locate a " HERE " and a " NOW " time would

stopp to pass and space would collapse into an infinitely small dot

(=disappear).

 

Our inquiring mind does suggest, that if there is time and space then

there must also be here and now. If there is a circle, there must also

be a center. But continuing this thought to its logical end we find,

that in " here and now " (= NO space NO time) there cannot be a

perceiver or somebody who experiences something. The ordinary

mind would conclude: then it cannot exist. But this answer is not

satisfactory for the true seeker, also not on the ground of logic.

 

>I herewith come to the conclusion that oneness is illusion -

seperateness is reality, the only ONE!

 

Every circle has a center. The circle is an expansion in time/space,

dependent on the concept of time/space. The center is infinetely small

and therefor outside of time/space. Would it be logically compelling

to conclude that their is no such thing like a center and the circle

is the only reality?

 

If we would add up all possible positions of a circle in relation to

the center we would arrive at a zero which equals the center which

equals ONE. Now what would you call " reality " ? The circle, the center,

nothing, both?! Is it not jumping to conclusions if you say that the

circle is reality and the center is illusion? Could it not rather be

the other way around since a circle is a construction around a center?

 

Imagine that YOU are one point on that circle, where would you end up

if you start to ask yourself who you are, where you come from, where

you have originated...

 

All the best

Stefan

[Guest guest]

The whole problem is to try and put everything into logical

perspective. Try and find out who the logical thinker is. Whether he

exists at all? What is though after all etc. You cant use your

current tools which are limited to fathom the unmeasurable and then

conclude right or wrong!!

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance "

<investicator@h...> wrote:

> Gentlemen!

>

> See, I have always been afraid that this happens one day:

> Up to now, the whole advaita-issue seemed logically sound.

> I am not so sure anymore...

>

> - How comes that I wake up with the same body-mind every morning?

>

> - Why don't I have all the experiences of all body-minds at the

same

> time?

>

> - How can different concepts arise in DIFFERENT consciousness

> entities?

> (If there really was only one awareness, and I am this awareness,

why

> then does this awareness has only the experience of 'my' body-

mind?

> Rather than all the experiences at the same time.)

>

> ((there is only here and now, I understand. How comes that this

here

> and now experiences DIFFERENT things through countless body-mind-

> entities?))

>

> I herewith come to the conclusion that oneness is illusion -

> seperateness is reality, the only ONE!

>

> Oneness is not an illusion!

Alberto :0)

>

> :-(

>

> and this after 3 years of following this illusive concept called

non-

> duality.

>

> How about non-oneness?

>

>

> think about it

> fox

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " ultrafeeltrance "

<investicator@h...> wrote:

> Gentlemen!

>

>Fox: See, I have always been afraid that this happens one day:

> Up to now, the whole advaita-issue seemed logically sound.

> I am not so sure anymore...

 

P: Afraid? So that means you were never sure. Are you now

sure that what you half-believed before, is wrong? Or

have you simply exchange one doubt for another? Do you

feel any different now? And if so how? How has your shift

in belief changed your life?

 

Do you see, that what you took for Oneness was a big

misconception? You thought that the oneness Advaita

points to, is a physical one. The only oneness advaita

points to, is a oneness of perception. When your mind

becomes very still a seamless whole is apperceived

( apperception meaning a perception w/o a perceiver.)

For all practical purposes physical multiplicity will

always be there. No one becomes omniscient.

 

In addition to this oneness of perception, there is the

oneness of common origination. All multiplicity comes

from the Vacuum and returns to it. That might be small

comfort at your stage of the game. While in the body,

Nothingness is, a very hard to come to by, acquired taste.

 

Best,

Pete

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...>

wrote:

> Sir,

>

> your questions are great! Fundamental. There have been times I was

> sitting for days and months asking exactly those questions and now I

> am sitting and asking again (lol)!

>

> Since you started the game, shall we play? I want to go only into

one

> of your questions, but this might lead to the disappearance of the

> other questions...

>

> >there is only here and now, I understand. How comes that this here

> >and now experiences DIFFERENT things through countless body-mind-

> >entities?

>

> Every moment manifestation unfolds into time and space. Inside space

> there are expanded locations, inside time, there is the passing of

> time. The moment you would locate a " HERE " and a " NOW " time would

> stopp to pass and space would collapse into an infinitely small dot

> (=disappear).

>

> Our inquiring mind does suggest, that if there is time and space

then

> there must also be here and now. If there is a circle, there must

also

> be a center. But continuing this thought to its logical end we find,

> that in " here and now " (= NO space NO time) there cannot be a

> perceiver or somebody who experiences something. The ordinary

> mind would conclude: then it cannot exist. But this answer is not

> satisfactory for the true seeker, also not on the ground of logic.

>

> >I herewith come to the conclusion that oneness is illusion -

> seperateness is reality, the only ONE!

>

> Every circle has a center. The circle is an expansion in time/space,

> dependent on the concept of time/space. The center is infinetely

small

> and therefor outside of time/space. Would it be logically compelling

> to conclude that their is no such thing like a center and the circle

> is the only reality?

>

> If we would add up all possible positions of a circle in relation to

> the center we would arrive at a zero which equals the center which

> equals ONE. Now what would you call " reality " ? The circle, the

center,

> nothing, both?! Is it not jumping to conclusions if you say that the

> circle is reality and the center is illusion? Could it not rather be

> the other way around since a circle is a construction around a

center?

>

> Imagine that YOU are one point on that circle, where would you end

up

> if you start to ask yourself who you are, where you come from, where

> you have originated...

>

> All the best

> Stefan

 

 

Indeed, we can illstrate reality as a circle, a perfect circle, and

only as a circle. How many points are there on a perfect circle? The

answer is: an infinite number of points. But infinity has no end, so

the perfect circle will never be complete. Any given point on this

circle is _exacly_ like all other points. There is nothing unique

seen from a single point. But from the perspective of two points

there can be an infinite number of unique views. So a 'soul' is at

least a unique pair of points on the circle. A pair is what creates

duality. The circle is what _is_.

 

/AL