Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain and pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain and pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear an image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and experiences associated with a lemon. The image of a lemon appearing in your mind is a thought, and that image needs no language to be described. So even without language there can still be thought. Maybe even some kind on 'inner dialogue' without language. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 - " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman <Nisargadatta > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM Re: Absence of any learned language > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain and > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear an > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and experiences > associated with a lemon. Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only via the words and hence via a learned language. Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > The image of a lemon appearing in your mind > is a thought, Nope. Image of a lemon is just that,... an image in cognition. In the absence of a further conceptualizing of that image into a " lemon " ,......... no " lemon " exists. Yes salivating may occur, as a response to that image. > and that image needs no language to be described. So > even without language there can still be thought. Maybe even some > kind on 'inner dialogue' without language. That inner dialogue becomes an " inner dialogue " only when the words aka " inner " , " dialogue " is learned and their connotation accepted. The terms " gooobooblooo " and " acaaaraamboo " could have been, as easly used.. So is the advent of the learning of language, the advent of the sense of the entity? After all, the sense of the entity, the " me-Anders " is also a thought. Which,........... without language,......... could not have risen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > - > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > <Nisargadatta > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain and > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear an > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and experiences > > associated with a lemon. > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only via the > words and hence via a learned language. > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. Absolutely false. When you think of something the colour green, isn't there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that colour is without giving it a label 'green'? If you lived for some time in another country, then you might begin to think in another language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but your sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. It is true that words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation of how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the same image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior words or labels. > > > > > > > The image of a lemon appearing in your mind > > is a thought, > > Nope. > > Image of a lemon is just that,... an image in cognition. That image is a _thought_. > > In the absence of a further conceptualizing of that image into a > " lemon " ,......... no " lemon " exists. > > Yes salivating may occur, as a response to that image. > > > > > and that image needs no language to be described. So > > even without language there can still be thought. Maybe even some > > kind on 'inner dialogue' without language. > > > That inner dialogue becomes an " inner dialogue " only when the words aka > " inner " , " dialogue " is learned and their connotation accepted. > > The terms " gooobooblooo " and " acaaaraamboo " could have been, as easly used.. > > So is the advent of the learning of language, the advent of the sense of the > entity? > > After all, the sense of the entity, the " me-Anders " is also a thought. > > Which,........... without language,......... could not have risen. The point is, there isn't always a need for words in an inner dialogue. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain and pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > I once had a friend who was profoundly deaf from birth...He had absolutely no concept of sound as anything other then vibration. One day I asked him how he formed thoughts. He told me that his thoughts flow....one after another...but were composed of a series of visualized lip movements and facial expressions. His " language " was the same as mine but the method by which it was cognized continues to be unimaginable to me. He thought..... not in words.......but in facial movements... Language is language......and the spinner of dreams........... In the beginning.....was the word................ toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only via > the > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > Absolutely false. When you think of something the colour green, isn't > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? If you lived for some > time in another country, then you might begin to think in another > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but your > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. It is true that > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation of > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the same > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior words > or labels. True. And also animals do have a memory without a language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > - > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > > <Nisargadatta > > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain > and > > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear an > > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and > experiences > > > associated with a lemon. > > > > > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only via > the > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > Absolutely false. When you think of something the colour green, isn't > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? If you lived for some > time in another country, then you might begin to think in another > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but your > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. It is true that > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation of > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the same > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior words > or labels. Try to think about " juicy green grass " without using the words ....juicy....green.....or grass......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > - > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > <Nisargadatta > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain and > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear an > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and experiences > > associated with a lemon. > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only via the > words and hence via a learned language. > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > > > > > > The image of a lemon appearing in your mind > > is a thought, > > Nope. > > Image of a lemon is just that,... an image in cognition. > > In the absence of a further conceptualizing of that image into a > " lemon " ,......... no " lemon " exists. > > Yes salivating may occur, as a response to that image. > > > > > and that image needs no language to be described. So > > even without language there can still be thought. Maybe even some > > kind on 'inner dialogue' without language. > > > That inner dialogue becomes an " inner dialogue " only when the words aka > " inner " , " dialogue " is learned and their connotation accepted. > > The terms " gooobooblooo " and " acaaaraamboo " could have been, as easly used.. > > So is the advent of the learning of language, the advent of the sense of the > entity? > > After all, the sense of the entity, the " me-Anders " is also a thought. > > Which,........... without language,......... could not have risen. " ...meaning derived from the real event has to be extracted from the memory and put into a sort of mental vehicle which stands for all events which contain that meaning. In other words, it needs to be symbolized. " The symbols used by humans to transport experiences are words. Language --- the structure in which words are embedded --- can itself be thought of as a concept...the structure of language seems to be mapped in. You can actually see the parts where this language 'instinct' is lodged --- Wernicke's and Broca's areas make a discernible bulge along the side of the left hemisphere in right-handers. When these areas become active, around the age of two, children start to use language to communicate but --- in a way more importantly --- they also start to use it to structure their inner world. Language provides a scaffold for thoughts which, without it, would be amorphous and fleeting. It allows us to crystallize ideas, to link them to others, to encode them in a way that makes them retrievable on demand, to project into the future, and to string thoughts together in a rational train. " ~ Rita Carter, " Exploring Consciousness " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > - > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > > <Nisargadatta > > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain > and > > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear an > > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and > experiences > > > associated with a lemon. > > > > > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only via > the > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > Absolutely false. When you think of something the colour green, isn't > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? If you lived for some > time in another country, then you might begin to think in another > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but your > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. It is true that > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation of > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the same > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior words > or labels. " Colour is generally regarded as a property of objects in the world, or at least of the light that is reflected from objects. In fact there is no colour 'out there' --- it is constructed by our eyes and brains. Light waves that are usually associated with 'green' for example, may be experienced as yellow or grey according to what else the brain is experiencing at the time, what it expects to see, and what it has just seen. " " This initial classification of a colour is made by retinal neurons. The brain then continues to sort the incoming stimuli into various colours according to a classification system which is partly innate and partly learned. " " Some languages divide the visible spectrum into many more colour categories than others....[example given: one language having eight categories to another's five] A study by Jules Davidoff, of Goldsmith's College in London, found that Berinmo speakers [with five categories] do not just have a relatively crude way of describing colour differences, they also perceive fewer distinctions. This suggests that having a language-based concept for a particular colour may be necesary in order for us to see it as distinct from another. " ~ Rita Carter, " Exploring Consciousness " Would also like to mention/remind of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis. Which, briefly stated, says: " Language constrains reality " . What becomes 'conscious' is that for which we have categories. FWIW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 - " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman <Nisargadatta > Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:02 AM Re: Absence of any learned language > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > - > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > > <Nisargadatta > > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain > and > > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear an > > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and > experiences > > > associated with a lemon. > > > > > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only via > the > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > Absolutely false. LOL. > When you think of something the colour green, isn't > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? Nope. Try to think of colour without the word " colour " . " Green " is the further classification, further distinction, further differentiation, further conceptualization. See Diana's posts. > If you lived for some > time in another country, then you might begin to think in another > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but your > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. Go back one step further back. The very cognition of color (not green or maroon or yellow, but color as an attribute of matter), is impossible without a learning that matter has attributes and one of them is something called color. And this matter with this colour is green color. In contrast to that, which is pasty yellow. All of which is the hoopla of language. > It is true that > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation of > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the same > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior words > or labels. Sure. But in the absence of a learned language, the " Pop-up " will remain an instinctual responding in the moment, to an impacting arriving input. The responding in un-awareness,............... un-awareness of the " pop-up " , as well as un-awareness of even the consequential spontaneous response. Which is all that, is happening in the moment. Moment to moment to moment. The sense of entity, with it's repertoire of learned language, believes that it is its verbalization articulation, or conceptualization, which runs " his " show. Whether the show is the spiritual circus. Or the usual stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The image of a lemon appearing in your mind > > > is a thought, > > > > Nope. > > > > Image of a lemon is just that,... an image in cognition. > > That image is a _thought_. No. That is the crux of the issue. A construction takes place of that " image " . Which is thought. Which needs some language. > > > > > In the absence of a further conceptualizing of that image into a > > " lemon " ,......... no " lemon " exists. > > > > Yes salivating may occur, as a response to that image. > > > > > > > > > and that image needs no language to be described. So > > > even without language there can still be thought. Maybe even some > > > kind on 'inner dialogue' without language. > > > > > > That inner dialogue becomes an " inner dialogue " only when the words > aka > > " inner " , " dialogue " is learned and their connotation accepted. > > > > The terms " gooobooblooo " and " acaaaraamboo " could have been, as > easly used.. > > > > So is the advent of the learning of language, the advent of the > sense of the > > entity? > > > > After all, the sense of the entity, the " me-Anders " is also a > thought. > > > > Which,........... without language,......... could not have risen. > > The point is, there isn't always a need for words in an inner > dialogue. Repeating.. That inner dialogue becomes an " inner dialogue " only when the words aka " inner " , " dialogue " is learned and their connotation accepted. Otherwise that " inner dialogue " is as meaningful or as meaningless, as scractching your ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 - " toombaru2004 " <cptc <Nisargadatta > Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:09 AM Re: Absence of any learned language > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain and pleasure with guttural > sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > > > > > > > > I once had a friend who was profoundly deaf from birth...He had absolutely no concept of > sound as anything other then vibration. > > One day I asked him how he formed thoughts. > > He told me that his thoughts flow....one after another...but were composed of a series of > visualized lip movements and facial expressions. > > His " language " was the same as mine but the method by which it was cognized continues > to be unimaginable to me. > > He thought..... not in words.......but in facial movements... Yes. And using the typical connotation, I am suggesting that responding through facial movements, is not thoughts. The very concept of thoughts and thinking, needs the connotated words as " thought " and " thinking " , and hence a language. > > Language is language......and the spinner of dreams........... > > > In the beginning.....was the word................ Word is an uttered sound or a set of squiggly signs on a PC screen, with a mutually agreed connotation. The connotation, is a connotation only within the gestalt of duality. Suggest, as an expression, in the beginning there was just the sound. Unstricken sound. Which never have been stricken, ...........never ends either. And thus further suggest, in the beginning, there was no beginning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 sandeep <sandeep wrote: - " toombaru2004 " <cptc <Nisargadatta > Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:09 AM Re: Absence of any learned language > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain and pleasure with guttural > sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > > > > > > > > I once had a friend who was profoundly deaf from birth...He had absolutely no concept of > sound as anything other then vibration. > > One day I asked him how he formed thoughts. > > He told me that his thoughts flow....one after another...but were composed of a series of > visualized lip movements and facial expressions. > > His " language " was the same as mine but the method by which it was cognized continues > to be unimaginable to me. > > He thought..... not in words.......but in facial movements... Yes. And using the typical connotation, I am suggesting that responding through facial movements, is not thoughts. The very concept of thoughts and thinking, needs the connotated words as " thought " and " thinking " , and hence a language. > > Language is language......and the spinner of dreams........... > > > In the beginning.....was the word................ Word is an uttered sound or a set of squiggly signs on a PC screen, with a mutually agreed connotation. The connotation, is a connotation only within the gestalt of duality. Suggest, as an expression, in the beginning there was just the sound. Unstricken sound. Which never have been stricken, ...........never ends either. And thus further suggest, in the beginning, there was no beginning. >>>> The first experience/instinct is *feeling*. Language is man made and laden on us from the outside and form a common ground between all around. The last, most lasting and the only real language is the *feeling*. / M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only > via > > the > > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > > > > > Absolutely false. When you think of something the colour green, > isn't > > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? If you lived for some > > time in another country, then you might begin to think in another > > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but > your > > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this > > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. It is true > that > > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation of > > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the same > > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior > words > > or labels. > > > True. And also animals do have a memory without a language. There is probably pre-language thinking, intellectual thinking, and post-language thinking. Each new state embraces and includes the previous state. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > > > - > > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > > > <Nisargadatta > > > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > > > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain > > and > > > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > > > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear an > > > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and > > experiences > > > > associated with a lemon. > > > > > > > > > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only via > > the > > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > > > Absolutely false. When you think of something the colour green, isn't > > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? If you lived for some > > time in another country, then you might begin to think in another > > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but your > > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this > > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. It is true that > > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation of > > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the same > > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior words > > or labels. > > > > Try to think about " juicy green grass " without using the words ...juicy....green.....or > grass......... Simple. :-) Train that mind of yours! /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " diana_53231 " <diana_53231> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > - > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > > <Nisargadatta > > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain > and > > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear an > > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and > experiences > > > associated with a lemon. > > > > > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only via > the > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The image of a lemon appearing in your mind > > > is a thought, > > > > Nope. > > > > Image of a lemon is just that,... an image in cognition. > > > > In the absence of a further conceptualizing of that image into a > > " lemon " ,......... no " lemon " exists. > > > > Yes salivating may occur, as a response to that image. > > > > > > > > > and that image needs no language to be described. So > > > even without language there can still be thought. Maybe even some > > > kind on 'inner dialogue' without language. > > > > > > That inner dialogue becomes an " inner dialogue " only when the words > aka > > " inner " , " dialogue " is learned and their connotation accepted. > > > > The terms " gooobooblooo " and " acaaaraamboo " could have been, as > easly used.. > > > > So is the advent of the learning of language, the advent of the > sense of the > > entity? > > > > After all, the sense of the entity, the " me-Anders " is also a > thought. > > > > Which,........... without language,......... could not have risen. > > > " ...meaning derived from the real event has to be extracted > from the memory and put into a sort of mental vehicle which > stands for all events which contain that meaning. In other > words, it needs to be symbolized. > > " The symbols used by humans to transport experiences are > words. Language --- the structure in which words are embedded --- > can itself be thought of as a concept...the structure of language > seems to be mapped in. You can actually see the parts where this > language 'instinct' is lodged --- Wernicke's and Broca's areas > make a discernible bulge along the side of the left hemisphere > in right-handers. When these areas become active, around the > age of two, children start to use language to communicate but > --- in a way more importantly --- they also start to use it to > structure their inner world. Language provides a scaffold for > thoughts which, without it, would be amorphous and fleeting. > It allows us to crystallize ideas, to link them to others, to > encode them in a way that makes them retrievable on demand, to > project into the future, and to string thoughts together in > a rational train. " > > ~ Rita Carter, " Exploring Consciousness " " To know reality you have to _know beyond knowing_... Let's suppose that one day I'm watching a tree. Until now, every time I saw a tree, I said, " Well, it's a tree, " but today when I'm looking at the tree, I don't see a tree. At least I don't see what I'm accustomed to seeing. I see something with the freshness of a child's vision. I have no word for it. I see something unique, whole, flowing, not fragmented. And I'm in awe. " -- From the book Awareness by Anthony De Mello /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " diana_53231 " <diana_53231> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > > > - > > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > > > <Nisargadatta > > > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > > > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain > > and > > > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts > arise? > > > > > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned > language? > > > > > > > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear > an > > > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and > > experiences > > > > associated with a lemon. > > > > > > > > > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only > via > > the > > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > > > Absolutely false. When you think of something the colour green, > isn't > > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? If you lived for some > > time in another country, then you might begin to think in another > > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but > your > > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this > > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. It is true > that > > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation of > > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the same > > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior > words > > or labels. > > " Colour is generally regarded as a property of objects in > the world, or at least of the light that is reflected from > objects. In fact there is no colour 'out there' --- it is > constructed by our eyes and brains. Light waves that are > usually associated with 'green' for example, may be experienced > as yellow or grey according to what else the brain is > experiencing at the time, what it expects to see, and what it > has just seen. " > > " This initial classification of a colour is made by retinal > neurons. The brain then continues to sort the incoming > stimuli into various colours according to a classification > system which is partly innate and partly learned. " > > " Some languages divide the visible spectrum into many more > colour categories than others....[example given: one language > having eight categories to another's five] A study by Jules > Davidoff, of Goldsmith's College in London, found that Berinmo > speakers [with five categories] do not just have a relatively > crude way of describing colour differences, they also perceive > fewer distinctions. This suggests that having a language-based > concept for a particular colour may be necesary in order for > us to see it as distinct from another. " > > ~ Rita Carter, " Exploring Consciousness " > > Would also like to mention/remind of the Sapir-Whorf > Hypothesis. Which, briefly stated, says: > " Language constrains reality " . What becomes 'conscious' > is that for which we have categories. > > FWIW That's a good description about how the mind forms labels out of different experiences. Going beyond labels is to connect directly to reality. Labelling results in a second-hand expericence of reality. Labels/concepts are good tools for packaging experiences and give them a common and consitent meaning for a person and between persons by the process of categorizing. But hey, what is that clarity that sees what is, cutting through - and embracing - all past labels? /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > - > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > <Nisargadatta > > Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:02 AM > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > > > > > > - > > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > > > <Nisargadatta > > > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > > > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain > > and > > > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts arise? > > > > > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned language? > > > > > > > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may appear an > > > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and > > experiences > > > > associated with a lemon. > > > > > > > > > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only via > > the > > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > > > Absolutely false. > > > LOL. > > > > > When you think of something the colour green, isn't > > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? > > > Nope. > Try to think of colour without the word " colour " . > > " Green " is the further classification, further distinction, further differentiation, further conceptualization. > > See Diana's posts. I think you are stuck on the level of conceptual thinking. I don't need any language to think. I can use language to think, but I don't need language always. I can think of green without the word 'green'. Of course there is an implicit label 'green' hanging on to such thought, but the label is in the background, and the 'feeling/experience' green is in front. What I believe mystics experience is that event that 'feeling/experience' of green is experienced in the background and that direct knowing/seeing is in front. > > > > > > > If you lived for some > > time in another country, then you might begin to think in another > > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but your > > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this > > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. > > > Go back one step further back. > The very cognition of color (not green or maroon or yellow, but color as an attribute of matter), is impossible without a learning that matter has attributes and one of them is something called color. > And this matter with this colour is green color. > In contrast to that, which is pasty yellow. > > All of which is the hoopla of language. Again, you are talking about the labelling capacity of the intellect. The human intellect is what makes us 'higher' than animals. But the limiting factor of categorizing and labeling must be recognized in order to transcend the intellect. The intellect can only know _about_ something else. The intellect is incapable of direct knowing. > > > > > > > It is true that > > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation of > > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the same > > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior words > > or labels. > > > > Sure. > > But in the absence of a learned language, the " Pop-up " will remain an instinctual responding in the moment, to an impacting arriving input. > > The responding in un-awareness,............... un-awareness of the " pop-up " , as well as un-awareness of even the consequential spontaneous response. > > Which is all that, is happening in the moment. > > Moment to moment to moment. > > > > The sense of entity, with it's repertoire of learned language, believes that it is its verbalization articulation, or conceptualization, which runs " his " show. > > Whether the show is the spiritual circus. > > Or the usual stuff. You are talking about the past here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The image of a lemon appearing in your mind > > > > is a thought, > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > Image of a lemon is just that,... an image in cognition. > > > > That image is a _thought_. > > > No. > > That is the crux of the issue. > > A construction takes place of that " image " . > > Which is thought. > Which needs some language. To me, thought is not just words. If I tell you: think about a pink elephant with black spots on it, then there will be some form of image in your mind, and that image is thought. > > > > > > > > > > > In the absence of a further conceptualizing of that image into a > > > " lemon " ,......... no " lemon " exists. > > > > > > Yes salivating may occur, as a response to that image. > > > > > > > > > > > > > and that image needs no language to be described. So > > > > even without language there can still be thought. Maybe even some > > > > kind on 'inner dialogue' without language. > > > > > > > > > That inner dialogue becomes an " inner dialogue " only when the words > > aka > > > " inner " , " dialogue " is learned and their connotation accepted. > > > > > > The terms " gooobooblooo " and " acaaaraamboo " could have been, as > > easly used.. > > > > > > So is the advent of the learning of language, the advent of the > > sense of the > > > entity? > > > > > > After all, the sense of the entity, the " me-Anders " is also a > > thought. > > > > > > Which,........... without language,......... could not have risen. > > > > The point is, there isn't always a need for words in an inner > > dialogue. > > > > Repeating.. > > That inner dialogue becomes an " inner dialogue " only when the words aka " inner " , " dialogue " is learned and their connotation accepted. > > > Otherwise that " inner dialogue " is as meaningful or as meaningless, as scractching your ass. You believe meaning comes from putting labels (words, language structures) on experience. That's a shallow kind of meaning that will lead you to boredom. Sure, these posts are words, but can you see beyond the words or are you stuck on the intellectual treadmill of labels? /AL > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > There is probably pre-language thinking, intellectual thinking, and > post-language thinking. Each new state embraces and includes the > previous state. > > /AL Post-language thinking? Are you able to explain what you mean by that, using language? :-) Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > There is probably pre-language thinking, intellectual thinking, and > > post-language thinking. Each new state embraces and includes the > > previous state. > > > > /AL > > > Post-language thinking? > Are you able to explain what you mean by that, using language? :-) > > Len I must admit that I am speculating a bit here. :-) But consider labels to be labels of other labels and so on. How many labels are there in a tree? /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > There is probably pre-language thinking, intellectual thinking, > and > > > post-language thinking. Each new state embraces and includes the > > > previous state. > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > Post-language thinking? > > Are you able to explain what you mean by that, using language? :- ) > > > > Len > > I must admit that I am speculating a bit here. :-) But consider > labels to be labels of other labels and so on. How many labels are > there in a tree? > > /AL Do you mean a kind of thinking in terms of labels of labels of labels, which is totally out of " touch " of factual reality? This is still language, isn't it, only it often seems very abstract, pointing to nothing at all. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " diana_53231 " <diana_53231> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > - > > > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > > > > <Nisargadatta > > > > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > > > > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to > pain > > > and > > > > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts > > arise? > > > > > > > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned > > language? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may > appear > > an > > > > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and > > > experiences > > > > > associated with a lemon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only > > via > > > the > > > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > > > > > Absolutely false. When you think of something the colour green, > > isn't > > > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > > > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? If you lived for > some > > > time in another country, then you might begin to think in another > > > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but > > your > > > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this > > > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. It is true > > that > > > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > > > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation > of > > > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the > same > > > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior > > words > > > or labels. > > > > " Colour is generally regarded as a property of objects in > > the world, or at least of the light that is reflected from > > objects. In fact there is no colour 'out there' --- it is > > constructed by our eyes and brains. Light waves that are > > usually associated with 'green' for example, may be experienced > > as yellow or grey according to what else the brain is > > experiencing at the time, what it expects to see, and what it > > has just seen. " > > > > " This initial classification of a colour is made by retinal > > neurons. The brain then continues to sort the incoming > > stimuli into various colours according to a classification > > system which is partly innate and partly learned. " > > > > " Some languages divide the visible spectrum into many more > > colour categories than others....[example given: one language > > having eight categories to another's five] A study by Jules > > Davidoff, of Goldsmith's College in London, found that Berinmo > > speakers [with five categories] do not just have a relatively > > crude way of describing colour differences, they also perceive > > fewer distinctions. This suggests that having a language-based > > concept for a particular colour may be necesary in order for > > us to see it as distinct from another. " > > > > ~ Rita Carter, " Exploring Consciousness " > > > > Would also like to mention/remind of the Sapir-Whorf > > Hypothesis. Which, briefly stated, says: > > " Language constrains reality " . What becomes 'conscious' > > is that for which we have categories. > > > > FWIW > > That's a good description about how the mind forms labels out of > different experiences. Going beyond labels is to connect directly to > reality. Labelling results in a second-hand expericence of reality. > Labels/concepts are good tools for packaging experiences and give > them a common and consitent meaning for a person and between persons > by the process of categorizing. But hey, what is that clarity that > sees what is, cutting through - and embracing - all past labels? > > /AL Dear Anders, No mind, no 'reality'. No 'food body', no 'reality'. Whether the experience is idea-lized as 'the freshness of a child-like perceiving' or no, it remains an experience within the food body. Phenomenality is constructed by the body-mind. To see the automaticity of this via neuroscience has been...nice. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002> > > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There is probably pre-language thinking, intellectual thinking, > > and > > > > post-language thinking. Each new state embraces and includes > the > > > > previous state. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > Post-language thinking? > > > Are you able to explain what you mean by that, using language? :- > ) > > > > > > Len > > > > I must admit that I am speculating a bit here. :-) But consider > > labels to be labels of other labels and so on. How many labels are > > there in a tree? > > > > /AL > > > Do you mean a kind of thinking in terms of labels of labels of > labels, which is totally out of " touch " of factual reality? > This is still language, isn't it, only it often seems very abstract, > pointing to nothing at all. > > Len I would rather say that reality _is_ the experience of labels. Can you count them? ;-) /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " diana_53231 " <diana_53231> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " diana_53231 " > <diana_53231> > > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > > > > > <Nisargadatta > > > > > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > > > > > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " > <sandeep@e...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to > > pain > > > > and > > > > > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts > > > arise? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned > > > language? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may > > appear > > > an > > > > > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and > > > > experiences > > > > > > associated with a lemon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , > only > > > via > > > > the > > > > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > > > > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > > > > > > > Absolutely false. When you think of something the colour green, > > > isn't > > > > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > > > > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? If you lived for > > some > > > > time in another country, then you might begin to think in > another > > > > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but > > > your > > > > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though > this > > > > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. It is true > > > that > > > > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > > > > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation > > of > > > > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the > > same > > > > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior > > > words > > > > or labels. > > > > > > " Colour is generally regarded as a property of objects in > > > the world, or at least of the light that is reflected from > > > objects. In fact there is no colour 'out there' --- it is > > > constructed by our eyes and brains. Light waves that are > > > usually associated with 'green' for example, may be experienced > > > as yellow or grey according to what else the brain is > > > experiencing at the time, what it expects to see, and what it > > > has just seen. " > > > > > > " This initial classification of a colour is made by retinal > > > neurons. The brain then continues to sort the incoming > > > stimuli into various colours according to a classification > > > system which is partly innate and partly learned. " > > > > > > " Some languages divide the visible spectrum into many more > > > colour categories than others....[example given: one language > > > having eight categories to another's five] A study by Jules > > > Davidoff, of Goldsmith's College in London, found that Berinmo > > > speakers [with five categories] do not just have a relatively > > > crude way of describing colour differences, they also perceive > > > fewer distinctions. This suggests that having a language-based > > > concept for a particular colour may be necesary in order for > > > us to see it as distinct from another. " > > > > > > ~ Rita Carter, " Exploring Consciousness " > > > > > > Would also like to mention/remind of the Sapir-Whorf > > > Hypothesis. Which, briefly stated, says: > > > " Language constrains reality " . What becomes 'conscious' > > > is that for which we have categories. > > > > > > FWIW > > > > That's a good description about how the mind forms labels out of > > different experiences. Going beyond labels is to connect directly > to > > reality. Labelling results in a second-hand expericence of reality. > > Labels/concepts are good tools for packaging experiences and give > > them a common and consitent meaning for a person and between > persons > > by the process of categorizing. But hey, what is that clarity that > > sees what is, cutting through - and embracing - all past labels? > > > > /AL > > Dear Anders, > > No mind, no 'reality'. > > No 'food body', no 'reality'. > > Whether the experience is idea-lized > as 'the freshness of a child-like > perceiving' or no, it remains an > experience within the food body. > > Phenomenality is constructed by > the body-mind. > > To see the automaticity of this via > neuroscience has been...nice. > > :-) Sure, reality is mind, and direct perception is also mind. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > - > > > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > > > > <Nisargadatta > > > > > Friday, September 17, 2004 11:28 PM > > > > Re: Absence of any learned language > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If no language was known, only the ability to respond to > pain > > > and > > > > > pleasure with guttural sounds, .............would thoughts > arise? > > > > > > > > > > > > Can there be a thought, in the absence of any learned > language? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If, for example, you think about a lemon, then there may > appear an > > > > > image of a lemon in your awareness, and also memories and > > > experiences > > > > > associated with a lemon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Memories and experiences are " memories " and " experiences " , only > via > > > the > > > > words and hence via a learned language. > > > > > > > > Without a learned language, the terms are meaningless. > > > > > > Absolutely false. When you think of something the colour green, > isn't > > > there a thought about that colour that makes you know what that > > > colour is without giving it a label 'green'? If you lived for > some > > > time in another country, then you might begin to think in another > > > language, and then there would be another word for 'green', but > your > > > sensation of what green is would remain the same even though this > > > memory is now accompanied/triggered by another word. It is true > that > > > words/concepts/language can be used to trigger memories, for > > > example: 'the juicy green grass', which may trigger a sensation > of > > > how juicy green grass actually looks, smells and feel. But the > same > > > image/memory of grass can pop up in your mind without any prior > words > > > or labels. > > > > > > > > Try to think about " juicy green grass " without using the > words ...juicy....green.....or > > grass......... > > Simple. :-) Train that mind of yours! > > /AL The idea that it is " my " mind.....is what got me in this whole mess........:-) toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " diana_53231 " <diana_53231> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: <snip> > > > > > > " ...meaning derived from the real event has to be extracted > > from the memory and put into a sort of mental vehicle which > > stands for all events which contain that meaning. In other > > words, it needs to be symbolized. > > > > " The symbols used by humans to transport experiences are > > words. Language --- the structure in which words are embedded --- > > can itself be thought of as a concept...the structure of language > > seems to be mapped in. You can actually see the parts where this > > language 'instinct' is lodged --- Wernicke's and Broca's areas > > make a discernible bulge along the side of the left hemisphere > > in right-handers. When these areas become active, around the > > age of two, children start to use language to communicate but > > --- in a way more importantly --- they also start to use it to > > structure their inner world. Language provides a scaffold for > > thoughts which, without it, would be amorphous and fleeting. > > It allows us to crystallize ideas, to link them to others, to > > encode them in a way that makes them retrievable on demand, to > > project into the future, and to string thoughts together in > > a rational train. " > > > > ~ Rita Carter, " Exploring Consciousness " > > " To know reality you have to _know beyond knowing_... Let's suppose > that one day I'm watching a tree. Until now, every time I saw a tree, > I said, " Well, it's a tree, " but today when I'm looking at the tree, > I don't see a tree. At least I don't see what I'm accustomed to > seeing. I see something with the freshness of a child's vision. I > have no word for it. I see something unique, whole, flowing, not > fragmented. And I'm in awe. " -- From the book Awareness by Anthony De > Mello > > /AL After reading these posts re: absence of learned language, I was moved to look at a Georgia O'Keefe painting. A close-up stylized image called 'Black and Purple Petunias " , presented without much context. Minimal context is a Georgia O'Keefe signature. The painting seems to not immediately produce word-associations, but rather, sensations. Pre-verbal kind of association, a sense of recognition, an awe, similar to what de Mello describes. Something that resonates with that same 'thing', whatever that is - that common thread, that source, that everything shares, that which is intrinsic to all. The recognition of this common thread arises out of some 'experience' or sensation. I look at the image before reading the title of the painting, and I stop. Oh, word associations are most likely automatically forming, because of learning, but before I actually acknowledge the associations, before the attachment of the word to the sensation is complete, before the meanings come up to awareness, before that experience of " separation of perception into label " is complete, there is something that happens, that can happen with the perception of any image at all, that kind of arrests the thought downloading into a word or word concepts and it remains a simple perception. This is such a sweet recognition. enjoying very much this discussion... ~freyja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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