Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 > > > > After reading these posts re: absence of learned language, > I was moved to look at a Georgia O'Keefe painting. > > A close-up stylized image called 'Black and Purple Petunias " , > presented without much context. Minimal context is > a Georgia O'Keefe signature. > > The painting seems to not immediately produce word-associations, > but rather, sensations. Pre-verbal kind of association, > a sense of recognition, an awe, similar to what de Mello > describes. Something that resonates with that same > 'thing', whatever that is - that common thread, that source, that > everything shares, that which is intrinsic to all. > The recognition of this common thread arises > out of some 'experience' or sensation. > > I look at the image before reading the title of the painting, > and I stop. Oh, word associations > are most likely automatically forming, because of learning, > but before I actually > acknowledge the associations, > before the attachment of the word to the > sensation is complete, before the meanings come up to awareness, > before that experience of " separation of perception into label " is > complete, there is something that happens, > that can happen with the perception of any image at all, > that kind of arrests the thought downloading into a word > or word concepts and it remains a simple perception. > > This is such a sweet recognition. > > enjoying very much this discussion... > > ~freyja Hi Freyja, Good to see your lovely face again. I prefer " black black rock with blue. " Very zenish! http://ellensplace.net/okeeffe5.html Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 " <freyjartist@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " diana_53231 " > <diana_53231> > > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > wrote: > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > " ...meaning derived from the real event has to be extracted > > > from the memory and put into a sort of mental vehicle which > > > stands for all events which contain that meaning. In other > > > words, it needs to be symbolized. > > > > > > " The symbols used by humans to transport experiences are > > > words. Language --- the structure in which words are embedded --- > > > can itself be thought of as a concept...the structure of language > > > seems to be mapped in. You can actually see the parts where this > > > language 'instinct' is lodged --- Wernicke's and Broca's areas > > > make a discernible bulge along the side of the left hemisphere > > > in right-handers. When these areas become active, around the > > > age of two, children start to use language to communicate but > > > --- in a way more importantly --- they also start to use it to > > > structure their inner world. Language provides a scaffold for > > > thoughts which, without it, would be amorphous and fleeting. > > > It allows us to crystallize ideas, to link them to others, to > > > encode them in a way that makes them retrievable on demand, to > > > project into the future, and to string thoughts together in > > > a rational train. " > > > > > > ~ Rita Carter, " Exploring Consciousness " > > > > " To know reality you have to _know beyond knowing_... Let's suppose > > that one day I'm watching a tree. Until now, every time I saw a > tree, > > I said, " Well, it's a tree, " but today when I'm looking at the > tree, > > I don't see a tree. At least I don't see what I'm accustomed to > > seeing. I see something with the freshness of a child's vision. I > > have no word for it. I see something unique, whole, flowing, not > > fragmented. And I'm in awe. " -- From the book Awareness by Anthony > De > > Mello > > > > /AL > > > > After reading these posts re: absence of learned language, > I was moved to look at a Georgia O'Keefe painting. > > A close-up stylized image called 'Black and Purple Petunias " , > presented without much context. Minimal context is > a Georgia O'Keefe signature. > > The painting seems to not immediately produce word-associations, > but rather, sensations. Pre-verbal kind of association, > a sense of recognition, an awe, similar to what de Mello > describes. Something that resonates with that same > 'thing', whatever that is - that common thread, that source, that > everything shares, that which is intrinsic to all. > The recognition of this common thread arises > out of some 'experience' or sensation. > > I look at the image before reading the title of the painting, > and I stop. Oh, word associations > are most likely automatically forming, because of learning, > but before I actually > acknowledge the associations, > before the attachment of the word to the > sensation is complete, before the meanings come up to awareness, > before that experience of " separation of perception into label " is > complete, there is something that happens, > that can happen with the perception of any image at all, > that kind of arrests the thought downloading into a word > or word concepts and it remains a simple perception. > > This is such a sweet recognition. > > enjoying very much this discussion... > > ~freyja I remember watching a documentary in which a male gorilla was shown staring at a sunset........It really appeared that there was an aesthetic appreciation in his looking. One can only wonder what a sunset would look like........with no words or concepts to color it........ toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 " <freyjartist@a...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " diana_53231 " > > <diana_53231> > > > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > > wrote: > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " ...meaning derived from the real event has to be extracted > > > > from the memory and put into a sort of mental vehicle which > > > > stands for all events which contain that meaning. In other > > > > words, it needs to be symbolized. > > > > > > > > " The symbols used by humans to transport experiences are > > > > words. Language --- the structure in which words are embedded --- > > > > can itself be thought of as a concept...the structure of language > > > > seems to be mapped in. You can actually see the parts where this > > > > language 'instinct' is lodged --- Wernicke's and Broca's areas > > > > make a discernible bulge along the side of the left hemisphere > > > > in right-handers. When these areas become active, around the > > > > age of two, children start to use language to communicate but > > > > --- in a way more importantly --- they also start to use it to > > > > structure their inner world. Language provides a scaffold for > > > > thoughts which, without it, would be amorphous and fleeting. > > > > It allows us to crystallize ideas, to link them to others, to > > > > encode them in a way that makes them retrievable on demand, to > > > > project into the future, and to string thoughts together in > > > > a rational train. " > > > > > > > > ~ Rita Carter, " Exploring Consciousness " > > > > > > " To know reality you have to _know beyond knowing_... Let's suppose > > > that one day I'm watching a tree. Until now, every time I saw a > > tree, > > > I said, " Well, it's a tree, " but today when I'm looking at the > > tree, > > > I don't see a tree. At least I don't see what I'm accustomed to > > > seeing. I see something with the freshness of a child's vision. I > > > have no word for it. I see something unique, whole, flowing, not > > > fragmented. And I'm in awe. " -- From the book Awareness by Anthony > > De > > > Mello > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > After reading these posts re: absence of learned language, > > I was moved to look at a Georgia O'Keefe painting. > > > > A close-up stylized image called 'Black and Purple Petunias " , > > presented without much context. Minimal context is > > a Georgia O'Keefe signature. > > > > The painting seems to not immediately produce word-associations, > > but rather, sensations. Pre-verbal kind of association, > > a sense of recognition, an awe, similar to what de Mello > > describes. Something that resonates with that same > > 'thing', whatever that is - that common thread, that source, that > > everything shares, that which is intrinsic to all. > > The recognition of this common thread arises > > out of some 'experience' or sensation. > > > > I look at the image before reading the title of the painting, > > and I stop. Oh, word associations > > are most likely automatically forming, because of learning, > > but before I actually > > acknowledge the associations, > > before the attachment of the word to the > > sensation is complete, before the meanings come up to awareness, > > before that experience of " separation of perception into label " is > > complete, there is something that happens, > > that can happen with the perception of any image at all, > > that kind of arrests the thought downloading into a word > > or word concepts and it remains a simple perception. > > > > This is such a sweet recognition. > > > > enjoying very much this discussion... > > > > ~freyja > > > > I remember watching a documentary in which a male gorilla was shown staring at a sunset........It really appeared that there was an aesthetic appreciation in his looking. > > One can only wonder what a sunset would look like........with no words or concepts to color it........ > Does the learning of words and concepts necessarily go along with an organizational framework? Would a lone person growing in the wilderness not perceive things, like animals, vegetation, the sun, stars, water, sky even without words? S/he would know that it is seeing something, even without a label to put to it. Are you suggesting that when there are no words or concepts for things and no cognition of the labels for things, this would be the same as awareness-not-aware-of-itself? What role do the senses play in all of this? Are you equating sensing with aesthetics? (aesthetics is only the sense, or love, of beauty). Sandeep posed the question: " If no language was known, only the ability to respond to pain and pleasure with guttural sounds....would thoughts arise? Can there be a thought in the absence of any learned language? " In other words, can there be any mental activity, ideas or notions, consideration, attention, or opinions or beliefs? It would be interesting to ponder writings of Helen Keller. She was without the senses of sight and sound, but could still perceive touch, vibration, intuition. Once she learned language, would she even be able to recall what it was like for her without using words and concepts? I think it is possible. What would a sunset look like with no words or concepts to color it? It might very well appear the same as when there are words attached. Nah, it can't be so simple, he says. Well. What if it is!? :-) freyja > > toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Hi Freyja, > > Good to see your lovely face again. > I prefer " black black rock with blue. " > Very zenish! > http://ellensplace.net/okeeffe5.html > > Pete Hi Pete, That is quite an awesome color on " black black rock with blue " Thanks for the nice link, and your thoughtfulness in passing it on! ~freyja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 " <freyjartist@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 " > <freyjartist@a...> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " diana_53231 " > > > <diana_53231> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " ...meaning derived from the real event has to be extracted > > > > > from the memory and put into a sort of mental vehicle which > > > > > stands for all events which contain that meaning. In other > > > > > words, it needs to be symbolized. > > > > > > > > > > " The symbols used by humans to transport experiences are > > > > > words. Language --- the structure in which words are > embedded --- > > > > > can itself be thought of as a concept...the structure of > language > > > > > seems to be mapped in. You can actually see the parts where > this > > > > > language 'instinct' is lodged --- Wernicke's and Broca's areas > > > > > make a discernible bulge along the side of the left hemisphere > > > > > in right-handers. When these areas become active, around the > > > > > age of two, children start to use language to communicate but > > > > > --- in a way more importantly --- they also start to use it > to > > > > > structure their inner world. Language provides a scaffold > for > > > > > thoughts which, without it, would be amorphous and fleeting. > > > > > It allows us to crystallize ideas, to link them to others, to > > > > > encode them in a way that makes them retrievable on demand, > to > > > > > project into the future, and to string thoughts together in > > > > > a rational train. " > > > > > > > > > > ~ Rita Carter, " Exploring Consciousness " > > > > > > > > " To know reality you have to _know beyond knowing_... Let's > suppose > > > > that one day I'm watching a tree. Until now, every time I saw a > > > tree, > > > > I said, " Well, it's a tree, " but today when I'm looking at the > > > tree, > > > > I don't see a tree. At least I don't see what I'm accustomed to > > > > seeing. I see something with the freshness of a child's vision. > I > > > > have no word for it. I see something unique, whole, flowing, > not > > > > fragmented. And I'm in awe. " -- From the book Awareness by > Anthony > > > De > > > > Mello > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > After reading these posts re: absence of learned language, > > > I was moved to look at a Georgia O'Keefe painting. > > > > > > A close-up stylized image called 'Black and Purple Petunias " , > > > presented without much context. Minimal context is > > > a Georgia O'Keefe signature. > > > > > > The painting seems to not immediately produce word-associations, > > > but rather, sensations. Pre-verbal kind of association, > > > a sense of recognition, an awe, similar to what de Mello > > > describes. Something that resonates with that same > > > 'thing', whatever that is - that common thread, that source, that > > > everything shares, that which is intrinsic to all. > > > The recognition of this common thread arises > > > out of some 'experience' or sensation. > > > > > > I look at the image before reading the title of the painting, > > > and I stop. Oh, word associations > > > are most likely automatically forming, because of learning, > > > but before I actually > > > acknowledge the associations, > > > before the attachment of the word to the > > > sensation is complete, before the meanings come up to awareness, > > > before that experience of " separation of perception into label " > is > > > complete, there is something that happens, > > > that can happen with the perception of any image at all, > > > that kind of arrests the thought downloading into a word > > > or word concepts and it remains a simple perception. > > > > > > This is such a sweet recognition. > > > > > > enjoying very much this discussion... > > > > > > ~freyja > > > > > > > > I remember watching a documentary in which a male gorilla was shown > staring at a sunset........It really appeared that there was an > aesthetic appreciation in his looking. > > > > One can only wonder what a sunset would look like........with no > words or concepts to color it........ > > > > > Does the learning of words and concepts necessarily > go along with an organizational framework? > > Would a lone person growing in the wilderness > not perceive things, like animals, vegetation, > the sun, stars, water, sky even without words? > S/he would know that it is seeing something, > even without a label to put to it. > > Are you suggesting that > when there are no words or concepts for things > and no cognition of the labels for things, > this would be the > same as awareness-not-aware-of-itself? > > What role do the senses play in all of this? > Are you equating sensing with aesthetics? > (aesthetics is only the sense, or love, of beauty). > > Sandeep posed the question: > " If no language was known, > only the ability to respond > to pain and pleasure with > guttural sounds....would thoughts > arise? Can there be a thought in > the absence of any learned language? " > > In other words, can there be any mental activity, > ideas or notions, consideration, attention, > or opinions or beliefs? > > It would be interesting to ponder writings of Helen Keller. > She was without the senses of sight and sound, but could still > perceive touch, vibration, intuition. > > Once she learned language, would she even be able > to recall what it was like for her without > using words and concepts? I think it is possible. > > What would a sunset look like with no words > or concepts to color it? > > It might very well appear the same as when there > are words attached. > > Nah, it can't be so simple, he says. > > Well. What if it is!? > > > :-) > > freyja .................The gorilla......has rods and cones in his eyes.......I'm sure that he saw the color in the sunset.........but lacking the conceptual framework (the word) for " color " or " sunset " .....his response to what he was seeing was probably not available to the human mind. I wonder if he just saw color.........the colors normally associated with...... ripe fruit...... I wonder what a sunset.......would look like without words........ Would any thing " be " ......withhout words......... I wonder....... toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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