Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Have you ever stop to wonder what the hell do you mean by saying, the world is an illusion? If every thing you know is an illusion, then, it follows that the knowledge by which you know it, must, also, be illusory. If on top of that, you add the assertion that the entity knowing this is illusory too, then, what you say amounts only to holy confusion. You are simply saying: Everything = everything. To counter this, by saying that only the knower of the illusion is real, adds no meaning to either term, specially, if you posit that the knower itself is unknowable. Waddling in this holy confusion will only lead to more confusion. Have you ever ask yourself, why do I do it? What could I get out of it? Suppose, you would come to a point at which, you could assert without a doubt that everything is illusion. How would that change anything? Coming to the opposite conclusion would not change a thing either. The only positive result, a final solution of the uncertainty would bring, is that the mind would stop churning all that thinking, would find a moment of peace, might perceive with uncommon clarity whatever is there, regardless of names. In such seeing a seamless integration of perception might come, and you would see names add nothing, explanations add nothing. What is, is, and whatever you might think about it, changes it not. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Have you ever stop to wonder what the > hell do you mean by saying, the > world is an illusion? > > If every thing you know is an illusion, > then, it follows that the knowledge > by which you know it, must, also, be illusory. > > If on top of that, you add the assertion > that the entity knowing this is > illusory too, then, what you say amounts > only to holy confusion. > > You are simply saying: > Everything = everything. > > To counter this, by saying that only > the knower of the illusion is real, > adds no meaning to either term, > specially, if you posit that the knower > itself is unknowable. > > Waddling in this holy confusion will > only lead to more confusion. > Have you ever ask yourself, why do I > do it? What could I get out of it? > > Suppose, you would come to a point > at which, you could assert without a > doubt that everything is illusion. > How would that change anything? > Coming to the opposite conclusion > would not change a thing either. > The only positive result, a final > solution of the uncertainty would > bring, is that the mind would stop > churning all that thinking, would > find a moment of peace, might > perceive with uncommon clarity whatever > is there, regardless of names. > In such seeing a seamless integration > of perception might come, and you > would see names add nothing, > explanations add nothing. What is, > is, and whatever you might think > about it, changes it not. > > Pete Hi Pete, Again and again you are absolutly right my friend. :0) I don't know if you are born with that understanding or you work hard to gain it! But for must of us, We have to strugle to arrive to a certain degree of understanding or maturity in the " sadhana " or Tao or whatever you want. If you ask a little boy lets says 6 years old about enligntenment and bouddha or the void. What will be his answer? Let's say he says " I absolutely don't care " !!! Is he awakened? Is he a bouddha? of course not. If that was the case, we would be billions bouddhas in the world. And Masters would teach Bouddhas. This is not the case. You have not sent this message to thousand " lets say " of true bouddhas. You send this message to people who are concerned, mixt-up about the truth, the Way, God , religion etc. You sent messages to non-awakened people. To make them realise something about this " folie " . There are levels or stages of life that some Masters build little by little to try to see better in this confusion; The seven stages of life. The last one, the seventh stage only the Heroes like Ramana Maharshi, Nissargadatta, Bouddha, etc etc, get in. There are not as many as many people think. The seventh stage is almost impossible to get trough because it is the ultimate revelation about our true nature. Only a bouddha or awakened man can say " I don't care " or " so what " . The 7 years old son of a bouddha, even if he says like his father " I don't care about life or I'm free from this world, tell lies. He needs to pass the whole process of understanding his father went trough. So, ha ha! I absolutly agree with what you just said. And this is the reason of the whole search. You cannot get and answer, without before asking the question. If I give you the answer E=MC2 without you asking, well you don't care. So the answer doesn't produce any effect! Truth or Reality is always there!!! But who cares! ha ha! It is trough suffering etc. that we awake the question why? Why me? What did I've done to deserve this? truly: as you said, Everything = everything. and the 7th stage master comes back to the world the same way he left, but quit different as others. He is awakened from the dream. While dreaming his is the same as any body else. He is human but he now knows he is not ( only human). Remember your two spanish poems? There were absolutly beautiful. I'll finish with; when a man is dirty he has to clean him self with clean water but the contact of the clean water with his body makes dirty water. It produces dirty water, yurk. Such is the way; yurk!! When you're clean, you don't care about the stages or the level it took for you to get clean. You understood what is true and what is not! You seat in the wholeness of you being (Ramana Maharshi) and you do want you want to do. You are free. P.S. 1st life is life, 2nd; life is an illusion 3rd; life is life (illusion) from the pont of wiew of the six first stage of life. You said: What is, > is, and whatever you might think > about it, changes it not. You're right!!! :0) Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Hi Pete, After some time, eh?:-) - " cerosoul " <Pedsie2 <Nisargadatta > Sunday, September 19, 2004 9:39 PM Illusion, Entities, and Holy Confusion. > > Have you ever stop to wonder what the hell do you mean by saying, the > world is an illusion? LOL > > If every thing you know is an illusion, then, it follows that the knowledge > by which you know it, must, also, be illusory. Yes > > If on top of that, you add the assertion > that the entity knowing this is > illusory too, then, what you say amounts > only to holy confusion. Or amounts to a concept. Useful to pluck out another concept, ka that something, someone " out there " is the key to salvation. > > You are simply saying: > Everything = everything. > > To counter this, by saying that only > the knower of the illusion is real, > adds no meaning to either term, > specially, if you posit that the knower > itself is unknowable. Even by using the term " unknowable " , is a corruption. For using the term, .............connotes that " it " is unknowable,.............. and this attribute, defining, ...of " it " ,......as " unknowableness " .........is knowable. The Tao that can be described is not the Tao,...............is still a description of the Tao. Useful till a stage, and then even this, is casted aside > > Waddling in this holy confusion will > only lead to more confusion. > Have you ever ask yourself, why do I > do it? What could I get out of it? The world is an illusion in the sense that it has no independent existence of it's own. Without the " cognizer " of the world, ............there is no " cognized world " . And vice versa. Both arise, together. Both disappear, together. Every night, in the state of deep sleep. Actually ...............the arising and the disappearing,.......... happening in each moment. > Suppose, you would come to a point > at which, you could assert without a > doubt that everything is illusion. > How would that change anything? Without the apperception of the nature of the entity to whom the illusion is an illusion, .....................its the same hoopla. > Coming to the opposite conclusion > would not change a thing either. > The only positive result, a final > solution of the uncertainty would > bring, is that the mind would stop > churning all that thinking, would > find a moment of peace, might > perceive with uncommon clarity whatever > is there, regardless of names. Yes. But the mind, being a notion, inferred by the mnemonic impressions of past experiences...... .....the perception of a notion, .............no matter how profound, no matter how deep, or how encompassing,..... ..... that perception is still nothing but,........... notional yadi yada yada. > In such seeing a seamless integration > of perception might come, and you > would see names add nothing, > explanations add nothing. What is, > is, and whatever you might think > about it, changes it not. Yes. The awake horse prances, standing on its legs. The same horse, when asleep, still remains standing on its legs. The changing state of the horse, between awakening and sleeping, does not in any way alter the essential standing posture of the horse. The arising and dissipating of phenomenality (of which this Universe is one mere bubble) in no way alters, .............that......... whose very objective expressing,....... is the arising, ........is the dissipating. Some yadi yada yada.:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Sandeep " <sandeep@e...> wrote: > Hi Pete, > > After some time, eh?:-) Hey! It's always a pleasure to partake of your pratling. It's good I no longer have a 'head.' ) With guys like you, and Alberto agreeing with me, it would get pretty swollen, if I had one. LOL > > > > > > In such seeing a seamless integration > > of perception might come, and you > > would see names add nothing, > > explanations add nothing. What is, > > is, and whatever you might think > > about it, changes it not. > > > > Yes. > > The awake horse prances, standing on its legs. > > The same horse, when asleep, still remains standing on its legs. > > The changing state of the horse, between awakening and sleeping, does not in > any way alter the essential standing posture of the horse. > > The arising and dissipating of phenomenality (of which this Universe is one > mere bubble) in no way alters, .............that......... whose very > objective expressing,....... is the arising, ........is the dissipating. > > > > > Some yadi yada yada.:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Up to your tricks as usual, Coyote Pete! Since there is no " who " or " you " anywhere, there is no one ever posting a message about illusion, and no " who " to understand that they are confused (holy or otherwise) in doing so. As for the matter of illusion, everything is illusion, and nothing is. Depends on how 'you' look at it! And as for *this* message about illusion, " who " posted it? Well, I did of course. 'Who' else? Or... as I am fond of saying, " I am quite clear that there is no 'I'! " Bill Have you ever stop to wonder what the hell do you mean by saying, the world is an illusion? If every thing you know is an illusion, then, it follows that the knowledge by which you know it, must, also, be illusory. If on top of that, you add the assertion that the entity knowing this is illusory too, then, what you say amounts only to holy confusion. You are simply saying: Everything = everything. To counter this, by saying that only the knower of the illusion is real, adds no meaning to either term, specially, if you posit that the knower itself is unknowable. Waddling in this holy confusion will only lead to more confusion. Have you ever ask yourself, why do I do it? What could I get out of it? Suppose, you would come to a point at which, you could assert without a doubt that everything is illusion. How would that change anything? Coming to the opposite conclusion would not change a thing either. The only positive result, a final solution of the uncertainty would bring, is that the mind would stop churning all that thinking, would find a moment of peace, might perceive with uncommon clarity whatever is there, regardless of names. In such seeing a seamless integration of perception might come, and you would see names add nothing, explanations add nothing. What is, is, and whatever you might think about it, changes it not. Pete ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 --- > > So, ha ha! I absolutly agree with what you just said. And this is > the reason of the whole search. You cannot get and answer, without > before asking the question. If I give you the answer E=MC2 without > you asking, well you don't care. So the answer doesn't produce any > effect! Hi Alberto, This is a very important point you are making, and I have deleted everything else, so it stands out. Only those who understand the question will understand the answer. To only those, who have a problem will the solution to that problem be useful. Yet, often people have framed the question, but have also framed the answer they want to hear. In other words, they are not looking for an answer, they are looking for confirmation. So, only those, who ask a question in the true spirit of inquiry, and are willing to wait with an empty mind for an answer to appear, will a revelation come. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Bill Rishel " <plexus@a...> wrote: > Up to your tricks as usual, Coyote Pete! > > Since there is no " who " or " you " anywhere, > there is no one ever posting a message about > illusion, and no " who " to understand that they > are confused (holy or otherwise) in doing so. > > As for the matter of illusion, everything is illusion, > and nothing is. Depends on how 'you' look at > it! > > And as for *this* message about illusion, " who " > posted it? Well, I did of course. 'Who' else? > > Or... as I am fond of saying, " I am quite clear > that there is no 'I'! " > > Bill > > Whatever turns you on, Roadrunner. Beep, beep! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Whatever turns you on, Roadrunner. Beep, beep! ) >>>>> Roadrunner, Roadkill It's all the same to me! - cerosoul Nisargadatta Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:28 PM Re: Illusion, Entities, and Holy Confusion. Nisargadatta , " Bill Rishel " <plexus@a...> wrote: > Up to your tricks as usual, Coyote Pete! > > Since there is no " who " or " you " anywhere, > there is no one ever posting a message about > illusion, and no " who " to understand that they > are confused (holy or otherwise) in doing so. > > As for the matter of illusion, everything is illusion, > and nothing is. Depends on how 'you' look at > it! > > And as for *this* message about illusion, " who " > posted it? Well, I did of course. 'Who' else? > > Or... as I am fond of saying, " I am quite clear > that there is no 'I'! " > > Bill > > Whatever turns you on, Roadrunner. Beep, beep! ) ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > --- > > > > So, ha ha! I absolutly agree with what you just said. And this is > > the reason of the whole search. You cannot get and answer, without > > before asking the question. If I give you the answer E=MC2 without > > you asking, well you don't care. So the answer doesn't produce any > > effect! > > Hi Alberto, > > This is a very important point you are making, and I have deleted > everything else, so it stands out. > Only those who understand the question will understand the answer. > To only those, who have a problem will the solution to that > problem be useful. To only those, who have a problem will the solution to that > problem be useful. > So, only those, who ask a question in the true spirit of inquiry, and > are willing to wait with an empty mind for an answer to appear, will > a revelation come. > > > Pete Hi Pete, You said: Only those who understand the question will understand the answer. ha ha! Must of us don't even know how we should ask a question, because we don't even know what we are looking for?? They want water, they ask honey, and still want water. So they ask for meet. etc. The master, the father, the friend ask what do you reely want. I asked a lot of my friends what they really want. Most of them, don't even know. I want money, I want power, I want this and that. and the final answer is well, I don't know. I think I just want to be happy. you said: To only those, who have a problem will the solution to that problem be useful. Most of people don't want to know the answers to their problems. They just need someone to listen. The don't really, truly want to solve the problem. The're just starting to notice that let's say, drinking 12 beers per day may not be good for the health! ha ha! Ask them, the have noooooo problem with that. :0) They're not ready for the answer... yet! You said: So, only those, who ask a question in the true spirit of inquiry, and are willing to wait with an empty mind for an answer to appear, will a revelation come. You make me smile my friend, I like you're style. You said it yourself. It need a lot of qualities that nor everyone has, or are willing to learn in order to see clearly what life is all about or Reality, or truth. You said true spirit of inquiry, with that quality which is a minimum. You already said goodbye to thousand of people who seem to truly search revelation. Wait with an empty mind for an answer to appear? Well you just killed almost everyone! ha ha ha! rare is the one who waits patiently the answer from the above. It takes Courage, determination, faith, will, honesty with youself, you must build you search on the rock, not on the sand. you need to be humble, fair etc, etc. If not all the bad qualities will drawn you deep in the middle of a chaotic confusion about yourself and others. You be the prisoner not the free man. Even while wearing the monk suit. You'll be the slave! And this is the process, to clean yourself until there is nothing to clean no more. Because the is no body to clean no more. The women suffers a lot to give birth. They suffer and suffer. But when they have giving birth the hapiness is incredible! Life giving life! You're title above is has Holy confusion in it... your right, but don't forget that it is holy ... ;0) (just kidding) Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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